Red-Shirt Leader Weng 'Turned Crisis Into Opportunity'

[Emptyset]

There have been reports linking the red shirts to Maoist tactics. One of which, in the propaganda side of things, is to repeat a simple message constantly.

And what reports were those?

In any case if, on the subject of propaganda, regurgitating a fatuous and simpleminded message repeatedly, I don't think the Redshirts are the only or even the main offenders in Thailand.

Indeed... seems you don't need to be ex-CPT to be skilled in "Maoist" tactics.

[Emptyset]

There have been reports linking the red shirts to Maoist tactics. One of which, in the propaganda side of things, is to repeat a simple message constantly. Another of which is to have a militant arm that you can disassociate from etc etc etc ... Weng doesn't deny his past involvement with the CPT nor being chosen for further "study" in Vietnam.

The reds aren't Maoist at all ... they just use the tactics.

I know Weng was CPT, I'm just not sure he studied in Vietnam (although I don't know that he didn't either). So he's discussed his Hanoi studies publicly?

[rubl]

Dr. weng had a rather solid education in propaganda and related tricks while studying in Vietnam many years ago. He has sworn off communism, but that doesn't mean he has forgotten or sworn off all the tricks he learned. K. Jatuporn's rants are child's play compared with the semi-intellectual speeches of Dr. weng. Never ever let your left hand know what your right hand does. This applies to politicians in general and it seems UDD leaders specifically.

The link to k. Somtow saying he didn't doubt Dr. weng's integrity having worked with him on a project for children, reminds me of what people used to say about some other 'well respected' people like Stalin and Mao, etc., etc.

Assuming the article that states he was in Vietnam is correct, then yes. My point was that not everyone in the CPT was ideologically committed to Maoism (or communism in general - nor even socialism), many joined out of necessity, as even moderate leftists and liberals were being harassed or even killed. One thing about Weng is he doesn't seem very 'worldly' to me, he seems more ideologically driven than someone who places a great detail of emphasis on the empirical facts staring him in the face - the sort of ivory tower idealist that many leftist academics are typically characterized as. Though obviously Weng isn't really an academic, nor one that would ever think of staying above it all in his ivory tower, but still, he does seem a little removed from reality in many of his statements, no stickler for the empirical facts, but not deliberately trying to deceive anyone either. On the Jatuporn/CTW point specifically though, I'm fully except his video to be fake or edited, but isn't it strange that Prayuth stated the troops were there just to help fire fighters? Meaning soldiers were indeed in CTW on the 19th? Don't know what to make of that.

Stalin and Mao? I see your point but I hope you're not seriously comparing Weng to two of the most despicable mass murderers in history.

Whether or not some of the current 'protest' figure were communist is ancient history. Those who were have forsworn CPT, communism and have been pardoned. For your info though a very interesting article ( http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/LE13Ae01.html )

Dr. weng can be boring ""Weng" now means "to confuse," "to bore" or even "to b***s***". If you hear a youngster say "Don't 'weng' me", it means, to put it politely, "stop talking nonsense"."( http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/2010/03/31/politics/Doing-a-weng-30125985.html ). He can be amusing "“We are being surrounded. We are being crushed. The soldiers are closing in on us. This is not a civil war yet, but it’s very, very cruel,” Weng Tojirakarn, a protest leader, told The Associated Press." ( http://dprogram.net/tag/soldiers/ ). He also said "“Myself and a lot of people, we are not crazy about Thaksin, we don’t cling to him, but we require a good, a genuine, democratic system. It’s taken too long. It’s taken my country 78 years.”" ( http://politics.gaeatimes.com/2010/04/21/red-shirts-will-alter-thailands-political-landscape-but-protesters-true-color-yet-unknown-30359/ )

Don't know why you bring up CWT, forget it. We had numerous discussions here with photos, links to articles, etc., etc. As far as I'm concerned no new evidence has come the last two/three months, no need for further discussion, we will not agree. Some are convinced the army/government torched CTW, some think that's ridiculous (me too BTW).

As for Stalin, Mao. When you say someone says Dr. weng is a man with integrity because he's so good with children I just want to stress that's nice as a character reference, but not necessarily of any value. I'm sure you're also good with children

Edited March 9, 2011 by rubl

[rubl]

I almost forgot, Dr. weng also build up political indoctrination camps. Nothing to do with communism of course, but just using propaganda techniques, indoctrination, brainwashing ( http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=50274 )

[rubl]

Dr. weng is also good at accepting responsibility, like when five grenades killed a Thai lady and wounded 70+ others around BTS Saladaeng

"A Red Shirt protest leader denied the group had any involvement in the blasts. 'The explosions had nothing to do with us,' said Weng Tojirakarn, who suggested the blame could lie with a variety of other groups, including the rival protesters, the government, the army or the police." ( http://en.infoanda.com/link.php?lh=AwdcV1VVVwIH )

Edited March 9, 2011 by rubl

[Insight]

There was an article in the BKK Post several months ago containing an interview with an soldier (maintaining anonymity) explaining that they did eventually advance as far as CWT on the 19th, the objective being to try and protect CWT from arsonists. This is not new information.

I'll try and Google the article up if anybody is interested.

[jdinasia]

I see even my short posts are being cherry-picked and altered, again.

I suggest that people should be informed about recent Thai history ........ (oh wait that is someone else's line.)

http://www.atimes.co...a/LE13Ae01.html

Therdpoum, born in humble circumstances in northeastern Thailand, was a hotel union organizer who fled to the communist underground in 1975 to oppose a brutal right wing government. Many hundreds of the country's most energetic students and intellectuals did the same. Most, like Therdpoum, later renounced the ideology.

His five-year odyssey with the Communist Party of Thailand (CPT) included a three-month period in Hanoi in the heady period following the unification of Vietnam under communist rule. There, Therdpoum and a handful of hand-picked Thai activists, like prominent student leader Seksan Prasertkun, as well as current UDD leaders Weng Tochirakan and Jaran Dittapichai, were drilled in Maoist revolutionary theory.

The five tactics they learned for unseating a government included: divide your enemies; form a united front; use provocative violence; secure the loyalty of people inside the ruling regime; and, finally, win over the army.

same source

"The people who are the real planners, not the people up on stage making protest speeches, these people probably keep a very low profile, but they must calculate that aggression is vital," he said. "Aggression paralyzes and divides opponents. This is what we were taught, this is how a smaller force can defeat overwhelming power. The message was: divide and conquer."

Whether the UDD's shadowy armed wing consists of mafia thugs, unemployed irregulars or disaffected regular soldiers, they must be capable of ruthless and focused violence, he said.

Edited March 9, 2011 by jdinasia

[Emptyset]

I see even my short posts are being cherry-picked and altered, again.

I suggest that people should be informed about recent Thai history ........ (oh wait that is someone else's line.)

http://www.atimes.co...a/LE13Ae01.html

Therdpoum, born in humble circumstances in northeastern Thailand, was a hotel union organizer who fled to the communist underground in 1975 to oppose a brutal right wing government. Many hundreds of the country's most energetic students and intellectuals did the same. Most, like Therdpoum, later renounced the ideology.

His five-year odyssey with the Communist Party of Thailand (CPT) included a three-month period in Hanoi in the heady period following the unification of Vietnam under communist rule. There, Therdpoum and a handful of hand-picked Thai activists, like prominent student leader Seksan Prasertkun, as well as current UDD leaders Weng Tochirakan and Jaran Dittapichai, were drilled in Maoist revolutionary theory.

The five tactics they learned for unseating a government included: divide your enemies; form a united front; use provocative violence; secure the loyalty of people inside the ruling regime; and, finally, win over the army.

You've already posted this article several times. I asked if Weng himself had spoken of his time in Vietnam, as you said he hadn't denied he'd been there (why would he if he had?). Anyway, it's really irrelevant whether he was there or not, it's just I've not seen any other sources for that other than this. As I pointed out before, Therdpoum, a PAD activist, would have reason to discredit the UDD and his former comrades, even though they might be well acquainted with these tactics, it doesn't mean they used them or that they were part of the team that planned the violence. I mean, you could write a similar article about the PAD, that PAD contains former CPT and some were drilled in Vietnam, and therefore PAD formed a united front, used provocative violence (or provocation at least), won over the army, etc etc. But it'd be meaningless.

Why the focus on the ex-communists when the people that (I believe) were behind the violence on the part of the red shirts were mostly generals who cut their teeth in anti-communist counter-insurgency operations? They used similar tactics to the CPT, including simplistic propaganda (in fact I believe the CPT propaganda was more elevated and closer to the truth than the state propaganda - though glad the communists didn't win of/c), indoctrination, "brainwashing" (trying to win over "hearts and minds"), also they were skilled at setting up violent militia groups - in fact the description of the UDD 'armed wing' sounds a lot more like the Krating Daeng than the CPT - false-flag attacks etc.

Although in truth the "armed wing" consisted of only around 12 people if you believe the other Asia Times piece. Still enough to cause chaos. Moreover, the generals involved, like Seh Daeng, Panlop, Chavalit etc have active military connections and access to arms and so on, Seh Daeng was able to give training and so on. If there was such a conspiracy, the idea that people like Jaran and Weng would have to be behind it as they were CPT trained (based on the Asia Times article) is somewhat ludicrous. The article is a complete red herring, although it does note that the 'real planners' were behind the scenes... there should be more investigation into this. Incidentally, in the 1992 protests, where Dr Weng was one of the main planners, buildings and buses were burned etc, gangs roamed committing random acts of violence and so on. Some say that the police station was burned, not by protesters or the government, but by a mob organised by Chavalit, who saw it as the fastest way to get rid of Suchinda (creating chaos so Suchinda would quickly crackdown and start killing civilians)... Chavalit had disappeared at the time, even though he said that he'd be the first to take a bullet if the soldiers attacked him (incidentally in May, he went to Hong Kong, didn't he?). Anyway, I don't know if that's true or not, but the rumour is quite similar to what I believed happened on April 10th - MiB sent in by Chavalit and others, attacked military and, the red shirts stuck in the middle, were shot. Of course, the tactic didn't succeed in removing the government this time.

Edited March 9, 2011 by Emptyset

[Emptyset]

Dr. weng is also good at accepting responsibility, like when five grenades killed a Thai lady and wounded 70+ others around BTS Saladaeng

"A Red Shirt protest leader denied the group had any involvement in the blasts. 'The explosions had nothing to do with us,' said Weng Tojirakarn, who suggested the blame could lie with a variety of other groups, including the rival protesters, the government, the army or the police." ( http://en.infoanda.c...lh=AwdcV1VVVwIH )

So what's the difference between Weng and the government, who you support? Also, there's been no definitive proof it was the red shirts who fired the grenades, despite the BMA's (or was it Suthep's?) claim at the time that they had video footage that proved it was fired from the red zone. There were conflicting reports at the time and nothing was resolved.

[Emptyset]

I almost forgot, Dr. weng also build up political indoctrination camps. Nothing to do with communism of course, but just using propaganda techniques, indoctrination, brainwashing ( http://ipsnews.net/n...sp?idnews=50274 )

Well, Thai schools are practically indoctrination camps more than they are about actually learning about real Thai history, finding the truth and learning to think independently. Nothing to do with communism, of course. The fact that a good proportion of what most Thais know about their history is a fabrication has nothing to do with communism. So establishment propaganda in service of the elite vs anti-establishment? Which is better? I don't know, I prefer the emphasis to be on facts and critical thinking myself, but since red propaganda seems to be in service of democracy and is anti-elitist, it can't be all bad (imo), now if only they'd figure out that Thaksin and their local poo yai are part of that feudal elite... who knows, that might eventually happen, I mean when you start thinking about the status quo, well, it's a dangerous path that could easily backfire for certain red shirt leaders/backers, if they encourage this type of thinking.

Anyway, it's not a camp, it's a one day seminar which people aren't forced to go to, unlike the several years of propaganda they're forced to sit through at school, of course. Other political parties or groups could set up similar 'schools' if they wanted, but they don't. One Democrat MP from the NE asked for funds so he could set up a similar seminar and it was rejected by party leaders... some people are still far more comfortable of an unpoliticized acquiescent rural mass, as Dr Panitan said: “What happened to us?” — he wondered aloud, an expression of stunned disbelief on his face — “what happened to our patience, to our tolerance, to mai bpen rai?” (http://khikwai.com/blog/2010/03/23/thai-style-democracy-1958-2010/)

[rubl]

I almost forgot, Dr. weng also build up political indoctrination camps. Nothing to do with communism of course, but just using propaganda techniques, indoctrination, brainwashing ( http://ipsnews.net/n...sp?idnews=50274 )

Well, Thai schools are practically indoctrination camps more than they are about actually learning about real Thai history, finding the truth and learning to think independently. Nothing to do with communism, of course. The fact that a good proportion of what most Thais know about their history is a fabrication has nothing to do with communism. So establishment propaganda in service of the elite vs anti-establishment? Which is better? I don't know, I prefer the emphasis to be on facts and critical thinking myself, but since red propaganda seems to be in service of democracy and is anti-elitist, it can't be all bad (imo), now if only they'd figure out that Thaksin and their local poo yai are part of that feudal elite... who knows, that might eventually happen, I mean when you start thinking about the status quo, well, it's a dangerous path that could easily backfire for certain red shirt leaders/backers, if they encourage this type of thinking.

Anyway, it's not a camp, it's a one day seminar which people aren't forced to go to, unlike the several years of propaganda they're forced to sit through at school, of course. Other political parties or groups could set up similar 'schools' if they wanted, but they don't. One Democrat MP from the NE asked for funds so he could set up a similar seminar and it was rejected by party leaders... some people are still far more comfortable of an unpoliticized acquiescent rural mass, as Dr Panitan said: �What happened to us?� � he wondered aloud, an expression of stunned disbelief on his face � �what happened to our patience, to our tolerance, to mai bpen rai?� (http://khikwai.com/blog/2010/03/23/thai-style-democracy-1958-2010/)

The Thai public schooling system may not be perfect [sic], but not indoctrination camps. True. Thai public schools have to do with education of children, Dr. weng's schools with educating adults in things he deems knowledgable with a 'slightly' red tint to it. Why you go on about public schools I don't know, no real relation with OP or what I wrote. The red propaganda seems only aimed at discrediting this government and of course the usual stuff on k. Thaksin and his wonder-plans on economy, I'll make you rich, get me back and you will see. Red propaganda in service of democracy? Personally I don't think reds know what democracy is. Dr. weng's UDD is not the most inspiring example of democracy.

Dr. weng's schools are not camps, correct, that was a bit overdone. Attendance voluntary, 'red-shirt' ideology, 'how we see things', etc., etc. Propaganda, indoctrination, similar to 24 hours shouting slogans and halftruths as they did on the main stage April-May 2010, broadcasted on PTV and preserved for posterity. No other political party has set up these kind of schools, as you mentioned.

The Dr. Panitan speech from 23rd of March 2010 is interesting. Dr. Panitan, acting government spokesman. Apart from your quote, there's also this "The red shirts may well be confused about what they want to build, but they now have a good idea of what they are against." Mind you, that was said on the 23rd of March when most was well in the Kingdom. Makes you wonder what he would have said after the 19th of May.

[rubl]

Dr. weng is also good at accepting responsibility, like when five grenades killed a Thai lady and wounded 70+ others around BTS Saladaeng

"A Red Shirt protest leader denied the group had any involvement in the blasts. 'The explosions had nothing to do with us,' said Weng Tojirakarn, who suggested the blame could lie with a variety of other groups, including the rival protesters, the government, the army or the police." ( http://en.infoanda.c...lh=AwdcV1VVVwIH )

So what's the difference between Weng and the government, who you support? Also, there's been no definitive proof it was the red shirts who fired the grenades, despite the BMA's (or was it Suthep's?) claim at the time that they had video footage that proved it was fired from the red zone. There were conflicting reports at the time and nothing was resolved.

The government already indicated (the DSI that is) that some deaths April/May 2010 are caused by army action. You're right, they should be more open and stop obfuscating. The red-shirts should do the same, till now I only heard them complain about massacres, slaughter, army firing thousands of rounds into protesters, 'it wasn't us, maybe others?'

There may be conflicting videos, mostly because it's not always clear when made, where made, how made. What is clear though is more than 10 red-shirts / guards arrested for terrorist attacks with grenades, possession of weapons, etc., etc. An apartment in Nonthaburi with remains of a failed '101 bomb making'. Of course it's pure coincidence that only non-red shirts were killed or wounded by grenade attacks. The fact that nothing is resolved in a court case doesn't mean there is no overwhelming evidence against your 'peaceful protesters, not terrorists'. Ask the Canadian reporter vanderGrift if you don't want to believe me. The most intriguing statement I've always found 'army in gunfire exchange with unarmed protesters'

[rubl]

As I pointed out before, Therdpoum, a PAD activist, would have reason to discredit the UDD and his former comrades, even though they might be well acquainted with these tactics, it doesn't mean they used them or that they were part of the team that planned the violence. I mean, you could write a similar article about the PAD, that PAD contains former CPT and some were drilled in Vietnam, and therefore PAD formed a united front, used provocative violence (or provocation at least), won over the army, etc etc. But it'd be meaningless.

Therdpoum Chaidee was a former CPT member, former TRT MP under k. Thaksin, collaborater of the UDD and PAD leader. That of course means to some he either knows nothing, or can't be trusted

I found some interesting articles not quoted yet. It gives some insight in 'propaganda' used. Read them I like to suggest.

Like 'Therdpoum Chaidee, a former communist and colleague of current UDD protest leaders, as well as a member of parliament under Thaksin’s now defunct Thai Rak Thai party.' (2010-05-18 http://www.infowars.com/thailands-thaksin-shinwatra-marxists-and-the-nwo/ ).

Also this interesting article 'according to admissions reported in Le Figaro (May 21) from Therdpoum Chaidee, collaborator of the Red Shirt leadership and a former Thaksin-supporting MP'(2010-05-27: http://www.themarknews.com/articles/1583-restoring-hope-to-thailand )

And last but not least 'The government has said it aims to separate ''terrorists'' from the ordinary protesters, while some red shirts have thanked the anonymous black-clad assailants for coming to their defense against state security forces. Therdpoum, a former member of parliament under Thaksin's original Thai Rak Thai party, says there has been obfuscation and propaganda on both sides of the conflict.' (2010-05-20: http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-446639 )

[ianbaggie]

Your unsubstantiated attacks on this man tend to indicate that you dislike he and the red shirt movement. I shared your view at one time just because they caused me inconvenience by blocking streets in Bangkok. Later, I realized that this is a selfish and unthoughtful position and I have come 180 degrees. What these people want is a chance to vote in an honest election. I may not care for the man they support for prime minister but a democracy lets people elect the those they want to get into government. This is a basic tenet of democracy.

This man appears to be clear and well thought in his responses. He deserves more respect than what you have afforded him.

These "people" had several offers of elections, but rejected them.

People shouldn't get an election just because they feel like it. They get to vote every 4 years (or less) as per the constitution.

When the government fails to hold elections within the time frame specified by the constitution, then the people have a right to protest and call for an election.

Good response.

A good comment by kjun12, but an irrelevant response from those who followed. Thje original comment was about a man, not about a party, there is a difference.

Oh - silly us - we thought the MAN was being interviewed about the PARTY line and represented it as a spokesman - how red shirt of me NOt to notice!!

[ianbaggie]

Strange that fat boy Juthaporn would hide behind a pretense of caring about the monarchy in claiming the Democrats dont care about the monarchy, after the stickers he posted in Sillom last May proclaiming in Thai "Thaksin for president" Long live the king!!! Especially considering the former Prime ministers strained relations with the monarchy.

[jdinasia]

Dr. weng is also good at accepting responsibility, like when five grenades killed a Thai lady and wounded 70+ others around BTS Saladaeng

"A Red Shirt protest leader denied the group had any involvement in the blasts. 'The explosions had nothing to do with us,' said Weng Tojirakarn, who suggested the blame could lie with a variety of other groups, including the rival protesters, the government, the army or the police." ( http://en.infoanda.c...lh=AwdcV1VVVwIH )

So what's the difference between Weng and the government, who you support? Also, there's been no definitive proof it was the red shirts who fired the grenades, despite the BMA's (or was it Suthep's?) claim at the time that they had video footage that proved it was fired from the red zone. There were conflicting reports at the time and nothing was resolved.

Since there have been confessions ...............

[whybother]

Strange that fat boy Juthaporn would hide behind a pretense of caring about the monarchy in claiming the Democrats dont care about the monarchy, after the stickers he posted in Sillom last May proclaiming in Thai "Thaksin for president" Long live the king!!! Especially considering the former Prime ministers strained relations with the monarchy.

That Jatuporn posted??

[ianbaggie]

As a red shirt leader he was responsible for the actions of the protestors. Or do you take the red shirt stance that no one except the Government is responsible for anything? Emptyset - are you saying it was the army who fired grenades during the protest? Denial of guilt is not innocence - especially after the weapons found on the site after the protest and the black shirt guards who were found with weapons at Rama 9 and Rama 4 by army checkpoints.

The point is the few posters on here who forget newspaper reports and television coverage and demand the evidence to be reposted every time there is an anti red shirt comment are desperately clutching at straws and often fail to provide any evidence of red shirt innocence during tghe protests.

Good that there are those of us who saw it first hand ourselves and witnessed black shirts with AK 47s and grenades and saw hospitals being invaded and patients rough handled by red shirt thugs. Desperation is claiming that the army would fire grenades at its own soldiers. but then those who follow the deposed criminal would stoop to any depths and adopt his denial of the facts. The red shirt faction on this forum wouldnt see bad in their ilk if it was irrevocable and undeniable.

So Siam Simon, emptyset, jayboy what would it take to convince you that the red shirt movement is an illogical idea purely meant to return a deposed criminal to the country by whatever means necessary, after he had to be forcibly removed for his criminal antics. if the red shirts ever turned against Khun T, ditched Jutthaporn who has no credibility whatsoever with anyone except hardline red shirts and got some forward thinking policies of their own which didnt involve violence and intimidation and denial of the truth, then I would be the first to support them.

But theyre not about the truth, theyre about bringing back a criminal.

[Emptyset]

The Thai public schooling system may not be perfect [sic], but not indoctrination camps. True. Thai public schools have to do with education of children, Dr. weng's schools with educating adults in things he deems knowledgable with a 'slightly' red tint to it. Why you go on about public schools I don't know, no real relation with OP or what I wrote. The red propaganda seems only aimed at discrediting this government and of course the usual stuff on k. Thaksin and his wonder-plans on economy, I'll make you rich, get me back and you will see. Red propaganda in service of democracy? Personally I don't think reds know what democracy is. Dr. weng's UDD is not the most inspiring example of democracy.

Have you read the 60 page document or attended any of the classes? Nope, neither have I, but I'm told by someone who has that the seminar had very little to do with Thaksin or this government in particular. I'd like to know more, though... my point about Thai schools is that how can you expect Thais to reject propaganda when what they're taught about their own history is at best a half-truth and much of it outright fabrication? Many red shirts are now critical about the official narrative, but need to be more critical of the alternate narrative that the red leaders are spinning, I agree. Since many have learned to question what they previously deeply believed (I assume), I don't see it as impossible that many will reject Thaksin sooner rather than later.

The Dr. Panitan speech from 23rd of March 2010 is interesting. Dr. Panitan, acting government spokesman. Apart from your quote, there's also this "The red shirts may well be confused about what they want to build, but they now have a good idea of what they are against." Mind you, that was said on the 23rd of March when most was well in the Kingdom. Makes you wonder what he would have said after the 19th of May.

It's not a Panitan speech, there was just a quote from him there, which I quoted above. The piece is written by the author of the blog.

[ianbaggie]

Jayboy - perhaps in that case you should seek to stretch your readings beyond "the voice of Thaksin" and red shirt today"!! What have you read that would convince me of the red shirt position being correct and PROVE beyond all reasonable doubt that your past rantings and your own undoutable bar talk werent just the diatribe spouted on rachaprasong stage? Most of my views have come from personal discussions with red shirts, both Thai and farang who have the same basic fault - they are unable to say ANYTHING that doesnt trace back to Khun Thaksin, they have no policies and NOTHing to contribute to the future of Thailand that doesnt link back to Thaksins will!!. My observations have also come from walking through the red shirt camp and SEEING first hand the weapons and black shirt guards on display there. From being in the middle of the crowd on the April disturbances. They have also come from the fact that my Thai wife was forced out of her hospital bed whilst almost miscarrying by red shirt THUGS invading a hospital.

There are NO excuses for what the red shirts did last April and May, Anyone who tries to excuse their actions by saying it didnt happen CERTAINLY should not hide behind a pretense of being educated- - i look forward to reading the sources that have made you "the man you are today"!!

Go ahead - convince me!!

[Emptyset]

The government already indicated (the DSI that is) that some deaths April/May 2010 are caused by army action. You're right, they should be more open and stop obfuscating. The red-shirts should do the same, till now I only heard them complain about massacres, slaughter, army firing thousands of rounds into protesters, 'it wasn't us, maybe others?'

There may be conflicting videos, mostly because it's not always clear when made, where made, how made. What is clear though is more than 10 red-shirts / guards arrested for terrorist attacks with grenades, possession of weapons, etc., etc. An apartment in Nonthaburi with remains of a failed '101 bomb making'. Of course it's pure coincidence that only non-red shirts were killed or wounded by grenade attacks. The fact that nothing is resolved in a court case doesn't mean there is no overwhelming evidence against your 'peaceful protesters, not terrorists'. Ask the Canadian reporter vanderGrift if you don't want to believe me. The most intriguing statement I've always found 'army in gunfire exchange with unarmed protesters'

The government itself (i.e. the ruling Democrat party, not state agencies like the DSI, which didn't actually say that anyone had been shot by the army, just that it was a possibility) admitted nothing thus far as far as I know. Why would I not want to believe you on your other points? I've never denied the existence of MiB or red shirt bombers, and I've never tried to claim that the reds were entirely peaceful. I'm just saying in this single instance, nothing has been conclusively proven. Once again, the usual straw man, trying to discredit my argument by attributing to me a position I've never held, in this case, that of a delusional foreign red shirt supporter. In fact I think Weng is perhaps lying or to some degree in denial to himself about the role of the MiB and who they were, but I don't think he's purposefully lying or manipulating people as part of some dark plot, which is what you seem to think he's doing (an opinion apparently based on the fact that he's ex-CPT).

[ianbaggie]

Emptyset - if the red shirts reject Thaksin there will be no more finance at rallies and no more handouts from his stolen tax money IF he comes back to power. There will also be no more policies as he has the only ones. Will the red shirt movement make that brave step and TRULY campaign for democracy??? - Personally I doubt it. When a puppet cuts its own strings it usually rolls over limply.

[hyperdimension]

he doesn't seem very 'worldly' to me, he seems more ideologically driven than someone who places a great detail of emphasis on the empirical facts staring him in the face - the sort of ivory tower idealist that many leftist academics are typically characterized as.

There are a few ThaiVisa members who could be categorized as such - lost in the world of idealism and overlooking much of the facts that show that the whole "red shirt" movement is far more about grabbing back power for a corrupt tyrannical criminal than about the big picture issues of true democracy and equality. It was actually very smart of Thaksin to disguise his fight for power as a fight for democracy and the poor, as it fooled a lot of people, especially those of us who have anti-establishment leanings.

Stalin and Mao? I see your point but I hope you're not seriously comparing Weng to two of the most despicable mass murderers in history.

I have browsed around the Red Shirt offices in Imperial World Lat Phrao and there are merchandise stands that sell shirts having prints depicting Mao and Che.

Edited March 10, 2011 by hyperdimension

[Emptyset]

As I pointed out before, Therdpoum, a PAD activist, would have reason to discredit the UDD and his former comrades, even though they might be well acquainted with these tactics, it doesn't mean they used them or that they were part of the team that planned the violence. I mean, you could write a similar article about the PAD, that PAD contains former CPT and some were drilled in Vietnam, and therefore PAD formed a united front, used provocative violence (or provocation at least), won over the army, etc etc. But it'd be meaningless.

Therdpoum Chaidee was a former CPT member, former TRT MP under k. Thaksin, collaborater of the UDD and PAD leader. That of course means to some he either knows nothing, or can't be trusted

I found some interesting articles not quoted yet. It gives some insight in 'propaganda' used. Read them I like to suggest.

Like 'Therdpoum Chaidee, a former communist and colleague of current UDD protest leaders, as well as a member of parliament under Thaksin’s now defunct Thai Rak Thai party.' (2010-05-18 http://www.infowars....ts-and-the-nwo/ ).

Also this interesting article 'according to admissions reported in Le Figaro (May 21) from Therdpoum Chaidee, collaborator of the Red Shirt leadership and a former Thaksin-supporting MP'(2010-05-27: http://www.themarkne...ope-to-thailand )

And last but not least 'The government has said it aims to separate ''terrorists'' from the ordinary protesters, while some red shirts have thanked the anonymous black-clad assailants for coming to their defense against state security forces. Therdpoum, a former member of parliament under Thaksin's original Thai Rak Thai party, says there has been obfuscation and propaganda on both sides of the conflict.' (2010-05-20: http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-446639 )

Calling him a 'colleague' or 'collaborator' is surely somewhat misleading, as I suppose the collaboration the articles refer to was some thirty years ago now... 'former collaborator' would be better I suppose. I don't think Therdpoum 'knows nothing', but he is obviously on the opposing side and would have reason to discredit the red movement (he's ex CPT, Hanoi trained and thus capable of producing propaganda himself, I assume...) - or perhaps he's just guessing like the rest of us - maybe trying to put himself in their shoes, what would he do if he wanted to topple a government? Although we already know the answer to that, of course. Certainly interesting and worth considering, but no smoking gun, I'm afraid.

EDIT: Incidentally - I used to consider anyone that posted that Infowars page as anything other than a joke instantly discredited and not worth listening to again. But I suppose these days I'm willing to give even Jatuporn another chance...

Edited March 10, 2011 by Emptyset

[Emptyset]

Emptyset - if the red shirts reject Thaksin there will be no more finance at rallies and no more handouts from his stolen tax money IF he comes back to power. There will also be no more policies as he has the only ones. Will the red shirt movement make that brave step and TRULY campaign for democracy??? - Personally I doubt it. When a puppet cuts its own strings it usually rolls over limply.

There are other sources of finance and definitely other people quite capable of coming up with policies, I'm sure. What do you mean by "stolen tax money" anyway? This govt is giving out more-or-less the same "handouts" now, so I doubt that's the primary issue. Although I agree with your implied point that simply throwing money at people isn't going to solve things longterm.

[ianbaggie]

Emptyset - if the red shirts reject Thaksin there will be no more finance at rallies and no more handouts from his stolen tax money IF he comes back to power. There will also be no more policies as he has the only ones. Will the red shirt movement make that brave step and TRULY campaign for democracy??? - Personally I doubt it. When a puppet cuts its own strings it usually rolls over limply.

There are other sources of finance and definitely other people quite capable of coming up with policies, I'm sure. What do you mean by "stolen tax money" anyway? This govt is giving out more-or-less the same "handouts" now, so I doubt that's the primary issue. Although I agree with your implied point that simply throwing money at people isn't going to solve things longterm.

Emptyset - Thaksin was ousted through 5 criminal charges.Which included hiding share ownership after denying it and embezzling tax money into Shincorp. If there is alternative funding available why has the red shirt movement depended on handouts from Shinawatra for its entire existence? if the present Government took away the current handouts it would face massive unpopularity. the 30 baht health scheme and other incentives bought in by Khun T are kept although the Government is cutting some public hospitals who offer it. You see i admit facts even though i feel the present Government is far and away the best choice for Thailand right now - pity the reds cant. throwing money at people makes them loyal to you even when youre a criminal if they are poor.

[jdinasia]

Emptyset - if the red shirts reject Thaksin there will be no more finance at rallies and no more handouts from his stolen tax money IF he comes back to power. There will also be no more policies as he has the only ones. Will the red shirt movement make that brave step and TRULY campaign for democracy??? - Personally I doubt it. When a puppet cuts its own strings it usually rolls over limply.

There are other sources of finance and definitely other people quite capable of coming up with policies, I'm sure. What do you mean by "stolen tax money" anyway? This govt is giving out more-or-less the same "handouts" now, so I doubt that's the primary issue. Although I agree with your implied point that simply throwing money at people isn't going to solve things longterm.

When will these "other people" actually come up with some policies? We have seen the reds on the street since 2007, and no concrete platform from them or their political arm (PPP/PTP).

[ianbaggie]

Funding from Grandpa!!:jerk:

[Robby nz]

In fact I think Weng is perhaps lying or to some degree in denial to himself about the role of the MiB and who they were, but I don't think he's purposefully lying or manipulating people as part of some dark plot, which is what you seem to think he's doing (an opinion apparently based on the fact that he's ex-CPT).

Had to laugh when I read that bit.

So in the posters opinion Weng is lying by accident or possibly he just does not know what the truth is.

Or there might be another explanation I dont see.

[ianbaggie]

A "scoundrel like Thaksin" Jayboy thats the BEST comment youve ever made - for 2 reasons.

1) Because its true. his 5 criminal convictions prove that.

2) because youve just admitted that the whole red shirt movement has no founding and nothing to offer Thailand when their sole purpose is to bring him back.

One more thing jayboy - can you tell one set of PTP policies that dont revolve around bringing back Thaksin? Why dont the red shirts protest for specific points? Why didnt they tell us WHAT they wanted to do to make Thailand such a better place if parliament had desolved?

The red shirt movement is a violent terrorist pressure group that parades under the falicy of a need for democracy when all it wants is a deposed criminal dictator to return.

On another note - I posted the link below because as an ex british soldier I recognise the sparks at the beginning of the video as being exactly the effect made when a high calibre bullet hits armour plating - i saw it in Northern Ireland - thus putting to be once and for all the idea that red shirts were unarmed.

I look across related news articles and see the contradictory evidence put by red shirt supporters in this format. its a pity we dont keep links open longer - sorry for going off topic but i feel its an important point.