Only Honesty Will Help Democracy To Survive In Thailand

[HeavyDrinker]

The real rub of the heart of the issue of 'Democracy' in Thailand has been skirted around but not hit on the head.

The bottom line is that Democracy by it's very nature demands a divided society, in political and social thought if nothing else.

Until the powers that be stop force-feeding the population ''Kwaam Bpen Thai'' from the egg and allow them to think for themselves 'True' Democracy will only ever be a buzzword used by a succession of 'dictators'.

[animatic]

If the headline is correct then just start carving the headstone for Democracy now.

[phetaroi]

Is this how Thailand's Gov idea of a bad practical joke. Honesty. First they must really understand this word, and really mediate on it then put it into practice.

Honesty refers to a facet of moral character and denotes positive, virtuous attributes such as integrity, truthfulness, and straightforwardness along with the absence of lying, cheating, or theft.

I tend to find more humor in watching Sarah Palin making a buffoon out of herself on Fox Network TV news and when she goes onto other talk shows. On how she will change America to a much better nation.

Sarah Palin Thinks Humans & Dinosaurs Co-Existed or Sarah Palin thinks George Bush is God.

The only way for Thai government to be honest, is to first quite, resign, retire. Then the people might believe they are honest or be like what’s happening in Africa and throw their butts out on too the streets.

First, not every country needs to have a democracy that is a carbon-copy of American democracy (as Malaysia's former PM was fond of pointing out). And, in a country like Thailand, perhaps the most important test should be whether or not democracy is advancing, not whether it is perfect. We westerners seem to forget that our democracies are aged, compared to much of the rest of the world.

What Sarah Palin has to do with Thai democracy escapes me.

What it seems to me that we have in Thailand right now is the current government which, in my view, was duly elected under the structure of Thai parliamentary law -- versus -- the Red Shirts and their allies, which constantly spout the word democracy, when what their actions and speeches really herald is "it's democracy IF WE WIN". And lest we think that the Red Shirts want democracy, is it not true that quite a few former Thai communists are directly involved in the Red Shirt movement? Do you think it's a mere coincidence that they chose red colored shirts?

The problem with Thai democracy is that it has evolved rather slowly, and at present is at a standstill, or perhaps even taking a few steps back. However, the current government is a legitimate one, and shouldn't just quit or resign or retire because the Red Shirts say to do so...that is the opposite of democracy. And you cannot compare the power-elite of current Thai politics with what is happening in Libya...to do so is foolish.

[phetaroi]

... face facts ... Thailand is a nation of children.

... when dealing with Thais, I have the best outcome when I treat them as I would a 13-year old girl ... all of them ... from the captains of industry to taxi drivers ... everything becomes more clear for me ... their behaviors are better understood and their reactions are better anticipated.

... you cannot give democracy to a nation of 13-year old girls ... the outcome is predictable (witness exhibit 'A' ... uh ... present day Thailand).

... and, if democracy relies upon honesty, there will be no democracy in Thailand ... honesty is decidedly NOT a Thai cultural value ... honesty is not valued here ... full stop ... end of paragraph.

... as the monk Samana Bodhirak in the article cited, a benevolent "dictator" is better suited for Thais ... just as a parent is better suited for dealing with 13-year old girls.

... let's get real about this, eh? ... I think the monk got it right ... maybe Thais should throw democracy under the bus and return to old school, 18-century style absolute monarchy ... could they do worse?

I am stunned that I tend to agree with much of what you wrote. Except the last sentence. The problem with absolute monarchs or dictators, is that there's no good way out from under them when they go bad (and quite a few do). At least with a democracy, however it may stumble along, there's always a way to defeat them through the ballot box, though it may not always be easy.

[kdc1899]

Siam is a Kingdom not a Republic.

[Roadman]

Is this how Thailand's Gov idea of a bad practical joke. Honesty. First they must really understand this word, and really mediate on it then put it into practice.

Honesty refers to a facet of moral character and denotes positive, virtuous attributes such as integrity, truthfulness, and straightforwardness along with the absence of lying, cheating, or theft.

I tend to find more humor in watching Sarah Palin making a buffoon out of herself on Fox Network TV news and when she goes onto other talk shows. On how she will change America to a much better nation.

Sarah Palin Thinks Humans & Dinosaurs Co-Existed or Sarah Palin thinks George Bush is God.

The only way for Thai government to be honest, is to first quite, resign, retire. Then the people might believe they are honest or be like whats happening in Africa and throw their butts out on too the streets.

First, not every country needs to have a democracy that is a carbon-copy of American democracy (as Malaysia's former PM was fond of pointing out). And, in a country like Thailand, perhaps the most important test should be whether or not democracy is advancing, not whether it is perfect. We westerners seem to forget that our democracies are aged, compared to much of the rest of the world.

What Sarah Palin has to do with Thai democracy escapes me.

What it seems to me that we have in Thailand right now is the current government which, in my view, was duly elected under the structure of Thai parliamentary law -- versus -- the Red Shirts and their allies, which constantly spout the word democracy, when what their actions and speeches really herald is "it's democracy IF WE WIN". And lest we think that the Red Shirts want democracy, is it not true that quite a few former Thai communists are directly involved in the Red Shirt movement? Do you think it's a mere coincidence that they chose red colored shirts?

The problem with Thai democracy is that it has evolved rather slowly, and at present is at a standstill, or perhaps even taking a few steps back. However, the current government is a legitimate one, and shouldn't just quit or resign or retire because the Red Shirts say to do so...that is the opposite of democracy. And you cannot compare the power-elite of current Thai politics with what is happening in Libya...to do so is foolish.

Agree.

What is constantly forgotten is Thailand is not a democracy so why is it's governance constantly trashed because it does not conform to western democratic models? Look all around its borders and it is a shinning model when compared to the reality of its locality and not some far fetched American model, which ain't perfect either. Thailand is a constitutional monarchy trying to establish democracy, not a democracy. The current governance with full army support is the best that can be hoped for given the threat to its stability from the low lives like Thaksin, the terrorist Red leadership and the nut case PAD/Yellow mob.

Edited March 9, 2011 by Roadman

[HeavyDrinker]

What is constantly forgotten is Thailand is not a democracy so why is it's governance constantly trashed because it does not conform to western democratic models?

Because that is what they yearn.

If you are that ignorant of Thai affairs leave your comments elsewhere.

Read my earlier post for the root of the problem and work from there.

[HeavyDrinker]

First, not every country needs to have a democracy that is a carbon-copy of American democracy (as Malaysia's former PM was fond of pointing out)

Do you mean Mahathir? The Dictator?

Why do some people even bother posting here?

Edited March 9, 2011 by HeavyDrinker

[yellow1red1]

I would like Pravit to explain where the left side in Thai politics is? Dems, coalition allies, yellows and reds are all uber-nationalists who play the xenophobia card at will, so there is no left there. Economically the opposition has a bigger harder on about globalization and free market economics than the current mob and only the yellows leninist economics although nobody in their right mind would call them left. Everyone is agreed on massive state handouts althouhg not probably from any social democratic standpoint but more one of "buying" votes.

All sides have shown they have no concern for human rights.

All sides and pressure groups are led by tradional powerful people and their henchmen.

The problem in Thailand is that there is no genuine left option for the people and no ideology that leans that way either, so it is always a choice of right wing demagogue authoritarians who are competing to toss a few bones while positioning the business opportunities and empires of themsleves and their mates to make a mint

There may not be much of a genuine ethical conservative option either. Central to conservative intellectual method is the question: "Is it really a good idea, given local conditions?" And an idea is judged "good" or not depending on how it affects the majority of people while also assisting the vulnerable.

It may not be such a good idea at this stage in its history for Thailand to adopt US or UK-style democracy. The latter requires both the intention and the resources to put the interests of the wider community before one's own family and kinship network, and requires commitment to the process (i.e. if you lose the election you wait till the next one). Democracy requires a degree of trust. None of these things are in place in Thailand. The intention, resources and trust are simply not there yet.

Something less than full democracy is required for the foreseeable future, but more than rule by an unelected power-elite operating behind the scenes. Perhaps the NPP's idea of 50% elected (revised up from 30%) and 50% appointed senior and qualified representatives of commercial, professional and civic sectors, is a practicable interim solution. But none of the major players are going to support it. Civil war or another military coup is more likely.

Methinks, it's too big, this time, for a coup, though it will be attempted. First, the military would have a internal war over Who would be the dictator. Civil War, *Thai Style, is about outstrip 'deomocracy' ' or any coup. By *Thai style, it's what many Posters and the OP alluded to, a dog fight to control the spoils of corruption.

on another point you made, there are other reasons Thailand should not adopt US style... Every man woman and child owes $700,000 to brake even and several States are, also, bankrupt.

Democracy is GREAT well, except for, Greece, Ireland, Spain, Portugual, America all economic WRECKS.

[TheyCallmeScooter]

I thought it was a pretty good article by Pravit, myself...okay, so democracy probably wasn't an ideal choice for what is really an essay calling for what Pravit has always been passionate about (too passionate, at times). It's clearly a cry for open discourse, and the end of mind-numbingly stupid utterances jokers like Samana Bodhirak are allowed to make, with a straight face.

Samana Bodhirak, leader of the Santi Asoke Buddhist sect, was asked what his ideal democratic system would be now that he has denounced the Democrat Party for being undemocratic. His answer was that even if the country were to be ruled by a dictator who is selfless and does good for the society, then it would be an ideal democracy.

This kind of nonsense is outrageous. This guy should be ridiculed into obscurity. Thailand needs a few Daily Show's, Colbert Report's or a Jay Leno to start destroying the caricatures that populate Thai politics.

I'm pretty sure Pravit is just sick of the eggshells everyone walks on, whether it's debate over the monarchy's role in politics or the nauseating cordiality that allows evil to use mainstream print media to launch their vitriolic hate-filled rhetoric...without sanction. I could be wrong, but I couldn't shake the feeling everyone got carried away with the democracy aspect (as if there is a single genuine democracy on the planet - if you think there is, you're living in a stunning world of delusion and I regret to tell you that you have been duped).

To say Thailand and democracy in the same sentence is not only a joke, but an insult to real democracies who fought and died to achieve it. Democracy is more than just a bumpy road. It takes a burning national commitment over centuries for it to happen and endure. The US fought a revolution, a civil war, and two world wars. Social democracy came slow as we had slavery until the late 19th century, persisting prejudice thereafter, and women didn't even have the right to vote until the 1920s.

I was going to ask you to name some of those insulted democracies; with an admitted intent of ridiculing them. But I see you did that very effectively yourself, without realising it.

To be fair, the US does try really really hard now (at least domestically)....but that nation is a very long way from being democratic, and - if we're being direct / correct - they really have a couple centuries of outrage they first need to first atone for, before we can get all that warm and fuzzy about US history.

First, not every country needs to have a democracy that is a carbon-copy of American democracy (as Malaysia's former PM was fond of pointing out). And, in a country like Thailand, perhaps the most important test should be whether or not democracy is advancing, not whether it is perfect. We westerners seem to forget that our democracies are aged, compared to much of the rest of the world.

What Sarah Palin has to do with Thai democracy escapes me.

What it seems to me that we have in Thailand right now is the current government which, in my view, was duly elected under the structure of Thai parliamentary law -- versus -- the Red Shirts and their allies, which constantly spout the word democracy, when what their actions and speeches really herald is "it's democracy IF WE WIN". And lest we think that the Red Shirts want democracy, is it not true that quite a few former Thai communists are directly involved in the Red Shirt movement? Do you think it's a mere coincidence that they chose red colored shirts?

The problem with Thai democracy is that it has evolved rather slowly, and at present is at a standstill, or perhaps even taking a few steps back. However, the current government is a legitimate one, and shouldn't just quit or resign or retire because the Red Shirts say to do so...that is the opposite of democracy. And you cannot compare the power-elite of current Thai politics with what is happening in Libya...to do so is foolish.

Agree.

What is constantly forgotten is Thailand is not a democracy so why is it's governance constantly trashed because it does not conform to western democratic models? Look all around its borders and it is a shinning model when compared to the reality of its locality and not some far fetched American model, which ain't perfect either. Thailand is a constitutional monarchy trying to establish democracy, not a democracy. The current governance with full army support is the best that can be hoped for given the threat to its stability from the low lives like Thaksin, the terrorist Red leadership and the nut case PAD/Yellow mob.

Two excellent posts.

I rarely hear anyone else mention it, and boy would it get Red Shirts riled up whenever I'd pull it out last year, but people forget that the 1997 "People's Constitution" was gifted to a nation who largely couldn't care less about the priceless gift being handed to them, without their even asking for it. They largely didn't care in 1997, or in 2006, certainly not during the riots last year, and they hardly care now. Thailand has been nudged ever forward into democracy by the very elites who really weren't under any pressure (that I could see) to do anything of the sort.

It's a bit tacky to draw analogies between an electorate and children (as some have done), but boy it's really tempting. An immature electorate who clearly was not yet in the position to handle the serious responsibility, was craftily manipulated into pitching Thailand into turmoil. And it's frustrating when you see people taking cheap shots at Thailand's political chances, and levying (what I feel is) very unfair criticism at those who gifted democracy to their nation perhaps prematurely.

As the two gentleman above point out, if you compare Thailand with their neighbours, one gets jolted back into reality. I mean, who's way out of ahead of Thailand the way Thailand is way out ahead of their neighbours? Singapore? pfft. China? lol. Irrationally nationalistic Sth Korea? Ever heard a Sth Korean talk about their own people (the ones they're separated from by mere a 2 km of no man's land, and a 20,000 NM ocean of shameful government-fueled hate-filled rhetoric)? It would give you the chills.

Myanmar? Laos? Cambodia? Vietnam? Malaysia? lol! Indonesia? lolol!!. Philippines? Well, not much to laugh about there.

Nah, Thailand's doing alright. Perhaps a bit better than just alright.

[craigt3365]

One nonsensical post deleted.

[Emptyset]

I rarely hear anyone else mention it, and boy would it get Red Shirts riled up whenever I'd pull it out last year, but people forget that the 1997 "People's Constitution" was gifted to a nation who largely couldn't care less about the priceless gift being handed to them, without their even asking for it. They largely didn't care in 1997, or in 2006, certainly not during the riots last year, and they hardly care now. Thailand has been nudged ever forward into democracy by the very elites who really weren't under any pressure (that I could see) to do anything of the sort.

It's a bit tacky to draw analogies between an electorate and children (as some have done), but boy it's really tempting. An immature electorate who clearly was not yet in the position to handle the serious responsibility, was craftily manipulated into pitching Thailand into turmoil. And it's frustrating when you see people taking cheap shots at Thailand's political chances, and levying (what I feel is) very unfair criticism at those who gifted democracy to their nation perhaps prematurely.

There have been pro-democracy Thai elites, of course, like Anand and Prawes who pushed strongly for the 1997 constitution and many others through history have been somewhat pro-democracy, mostly paternalist royalist liberals like the aforementioned (also see Kukrit and Seni Pramoj etc). Soft democrats have been tolerated, but other elites like Pridi who radically challenged the status quo & wanted to encourage democracy from below, were hounded out eventually, of course. I'd say much of the Thai ruling class during the 20th century has been set against democracy and the acquiescence of the "phrai" (indulge me) is heavily down to their design. I find your comments strange really, given the famous Thai protests that we all know about where people - most of them ordinary poor folk - have died for democracy.

In fact the idea that democracy has been handed down by the elites to people that didn't want it really does seem absurd to me. In fact that's exactly what the conservative ruling class want people to believe, they like to see themselves as benevolent and caring and want the rural working class to see them that way too, which of course reinforces the patron-client relationship and perpetuates the apathetic subject you're criticizing. Any democratic gains have been hard-won by the people and the fight isn't over - as it never is, since democracy always struggles against other interests.

Don't have time to go through the whole of 20th century Thailand, detailing the struggles of the working class, grassroots democracy and labour activists who were persecuted and killed by the elite you're praising... well, let's clarify, obviously the elite isn't monolithic, nor is it static in makeup or ideology. At times the elite has been more committed to democracy than others and then it's (bar a few dissidents like Puuey) turned violently reactionary to protect its interests when they appear to be threatened (see 75-76-77 in particular). Anyway, just to comment specifically on the 1997 constitution, which as I'm sure you know, was drafted in the wake of the 1992 protests where those people who hated democracy once again died for it - here's what Pasuk and Baker wrote in 'Thailand's Boom And Bust':

"From the start, the reformers knew they would need public support. They canvassed inputs and opinions through local meetings and opinion surveys. They took the draft on a tour of local reviews. Especially in the provincial towns, meetings were intense and lively. Thousands turned up to listen. Hundreds queued at the microphones to have their say. Participations went far beyond local politicians and activists. Businessesmen, professionals, community leaders and ordinary people took part. The mood was generally supportive. The document might have some quirks and wrinkles. But overall it struck a positive chord among the supporters of this new civic consciousness."

At least not quite as gifted as you make out...

[Diablo Bob]

Just got this today, most if all apply...... not only to Thailand,

What this country needs are more unemployed politicians.

-Edward Langley, Artist (1928 - 1995)

"If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed, if you do read the

newspaper you are misinformed."

-Mark Twain

Suppose you were an idiot.

And suppose you were a member of Congress....

But then I repeat myself.

-Mark Twain

I contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like

a man, standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle.

-Winston Churchill

A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the

support of Paul.

- George Bernard Shaw

A liberal is someone who feels a great debt to his fellow man, which

debt he proposes to pay off with your money..

-G Gordon Liddy

Democracy must be something more than two wolves and a sheep voting on

what to have for dinner.

-James Bovard, Civil Libertarian (1994)

Foreign aid might be defined as a transfer of money from poor people in

rich countries to rich people in poor countries.

-Douglas Casey

Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys

to teenage boys.

-P..J. O'Rourke, Civil Libertarian

Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to

live at the expense of everybody else.

-Frederic Bastiat, French Economist (1801-1850)

Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short

phrases:

If it moves, tax it.

If it keeps moving, regulate it. And

If it stops moving, subsidize it.

-Ronald Reagan (1986)

I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts.

-Will Rogers

If you think health care is expensive now, wait until you see what it

Costs when it's free!

-P..J. O'Rourke

In general, the art of government consists of taking as much money as

possible from one party of the citizens to give to the other.

-Voltaire (1764)

Just because you do not take an interest in politics doesn't mean

Politics won't take an interest in you!

-Pericles (430 B.C.)

No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in

session.

-Mark Twain (1866)

Talk is cheap...except when Congress does it.

-Unknown

The government is like a baby's alimentary canal, with a happy appetite

at one end and no responsibility at the other.

-Ronald Reagan

The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings.

The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery.

-Winston Churchill

The only difference between a tax man and a taxidermist is that the

taxidermist leaves the skin.

-Mark Twain

The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to

fill the world with fools.

-Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

There is no distinctly Native American criminal class...save Congress.

-Mark Twain

A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong

enough to take everything you have.

-Thomas Jefferson

[teetersb]

Thanks Diablo for quotes. You made my morning brighter.

[TheyCallmeScooter]

Thailand has been nudged ever forward into democracy by the very elites who really weren't under any pressure (that I could see) to do anything of the sort.

Any democratic gains have been hard-won by the people and the fight isn't over - as it never is, since democracy always struggles against other interests.

Don't have time to go through the whole of 20th century Thailand, detailing the struggles of the working class, grassroots democracy and labour activists who were persecuted and killed by the elite you're praising...

At least not quite as gifted as you make out...

You are quite clearly exceptionally bright and your knowledge of Thai political history dwarfs my limited awareness.

But please note the nature of the assertion I made, which I've bolded above. My point was about pressure. I did not intend to cheapen the heroic sacrifices of those who have (genuinely) fought against corruption and exploitation, trying to improve the lot of those who aren't yet educated / mature enough to peacefully bring improvements to their own lives. But claiming that the heroism of those (few) who fell fighting for ideals during the last century in Thailand, has somehow pressured the elites to give the poor what they've proven they cannot even appreciate or value (yet)...that's really misrepresenting the realities.

Some excellent quotes posted above (and some terrible ones, of course) - but Bob omitted the greatest political quote of all-time.

Every nation has the government it deserves.

The most frustrating thing about being a liberal idealist, are the demoralising realities. The exploited are so hard to assist, because they're so easily manipulated by those who exploit them. And they will invariably not only give you no assistance when you struggle to help them help themselves, they'll usually fight you tooth-and-nail....in support of the very villains who are gleefully exploiting them.

There are many reasons for this; some are tragic - some are infuriating - some are mitigating.

Tragically, their lack of education is often the biggest hurdle to overcome. How can they be faulted for selling their vote when they can't understand the concept of democracy.

Infuriatingly, their ignorant selfishness and inability to care about the future prospects of their children is often an inescapable factor. Who cares about 15 billion for education, when Thaksin gives me 1500 for showing up at a rally. Never mind that the rally is organised purely and exclusively to fight against the guy trying to break the cycles of poverty by turning Thailand into a welfare state; burning and rioting and killing, hoping to replace him with a guy who will do everything he can to ensure the vicious cycles of debt / trinkets for votes continues. In any case, why do my daughters need books! They've already left school at 13 and 15 to follow their sister to Bangkok, to live a glamorous life of sinful partying. I do my best to batter them emotionally and shame them for their choosing a life of sinful vice, but I'm powerless to prevent them from their lazy addiction to the glamour, drugs, sex and easy life! I make sure they at least send the majority of their vice-earnings back to their family, of course. So at least some good comes out of their shameful choices. Why would we refuse the remittances? That's out of the question. My car repayments aren't going to pay themselves, and at 42, I'm too old to work.

In mitigation, those who are exploited are obviously forced to endure heart-breaking poverty and pain. Is it all that surprising that they so often embrace a life of denial. Is there any other way to reconcile being born into a life of abject poverty, with crushingly bleak or effectively non-existent prospects to change one's stars?

---------

But back to our disagreement, I may be slightly selling the efforts of Thai idealist activists short - but if I am, it's by a negligible amount. Pressure is pressure. Until the masses in Thailand grow up, and educate themselves (it's unlikely Abhisit will be able to do it for them, especially if they continue to bite the hand that would feed them whilst sucking on the thumb of the hand that beats them - and shoots them in the back)...until they become politically aware, they will always be exploited very easily by those with the power. Because they GIVE their god-given power away. 30,000 peaceful protesters huh? Why isn't it 3 million? 3 million peaceful protesters would NEVER have to resort to violence. 3000 pretty much have no choice but violence, they're desperate because their cause is illegitimate.

I could be mistaken, but I don't believe I am. I have seen nothing that suggests there is any genuine pressure on the elites to concede power to the masses - and yet, I have seen a great deal of concessions given regardless. Some even refused out of hand, by those 'masses' - ahem.

The deaths of protesters in 1992 (likely heroic, from what I understand) and the deaths of protesters in 2010 (gut-wrenchingly tragic, from what I KNOW - lambs to slaughter, tricked and betrayed by their leaders) cannot leverage pressure on the elites to give up power. 1992 is a distant memory, 2010 was a tragically deluded contradiction. In any case, violence is never the answer. The pen is always mightier than the sword; and though it is surely redundant at this late stage to point it out, if Thaksin gave one iota about the peasants he exploits to die for him whilst he lives in (stolen) luxury, he would have delivered cycle-breaking budgets during his 6 years in power.

But he did the exact opposite. He bought trinkets for those who clap their hands in glee at shiny things, and bought the love of the parents of the children who are suffering in unspeakable horror now and in the near future. And, if he gets his way, he will perpetuate that cycle by repeating the formula with the pitiful victims who are children now, when they have children of their own.

At least, any that....survive.

[cheshiregent]

democracy must be first created before it can survive so be prepaid for a very long wait if ever