International community condemns murder of Israeli family of 5

[Jingthing]

Indeed.

Peace will come when the Arabs start to love their children more than they hate us.

Golda Meir

How arrogant and disrespectful of Lady Colonialist, pretty racist and a dumb platitude.

Interesting to call Zionists colonialists. Colonialists from where? Where was the headquarters country colonizing Israel? (Let me check ... in Israel.) Actually, Zionists won their struggle against the British colonialists who were governing the British colony of Palestine. Palestinians per se as a distinct people didn't even exist back then, it could be argued and I agree with the argument. Yes there were Arabs living in the region long term; there were also Jews. It could be argued the concept of the "Palestinian people" is a political construct of the Arab world. That doesn't mean modern day Palestinians (as that's how they do identify now) don't have extremely serious grievances that do need addressing. Just don't diss Golda no more ...

With a mug like that, she had to be good.

Edited March 14, 2011 by Jingthing

[kuffki]

And there I thought PA would accept responsibility and confirm that schools and mosque preach and teach hatered.

Yet another useless link to what already had been posted and said days ago

[Steely Dan]

In my opinion, on the face of it, I find it a very strange decision to show it at the UN and is completely wrong.

I disagree with you Wallaby because where else will the UN members get to see ? And I think far too much has been suppressed

in the past - listen to the confession of a former Israeli Minister

I see you are repeating links from other threads, but the answer is the same. You have a broad range of oppinion in a democracy such as Israel and you don't get a fatwa put on your head for doing so, which is standard fayre in most Arab Countries, some where women can't even drive. As for the link, yes some Israelis may be quick to use the scapegoat argument but no quicker than every single Country in the Arab world systematically scapegoats Israel. Here is but one link of many thousands, I'll give a different link than I did last time in reply to yours.

http://theaustralian.newspaperdirect.com/epaper/viewer.aspx

As for the U.N and it's Arab bloc vote the anti-Israel film is EXACTLY what I would expect from an organization that still employs Robert Falk who alleges 9/11 was set up by George Bush.

Quick edit to add: And the bias inherent in the U.N underlines exactly why Israel will continue to ignore it and the U.S will continue to veto every binding resolution that is politically motivated. A busy time for the building trade I predict.

Edited March 14, 2011 by Steely Dan

[bangkokeddy]

Indeed.

Peace will come when the Arabs start to love their children more than they hate us.

Golda Meir

How arrogant and disrespectful of Lady Colonialist, pretty racist and a dumb platitude.

Interesting to call Zionists colonialists. Colonialists from where? Where was the headquarters country colonizing Israel? (Let me check ... in Israel.) Actually, Zionists won their struggle against the British colonialists who were governing the British colony of Palestine. Palestinians per se as a distinct people didn't even exist back then, it could be argued and I agree with the argument. Yes there were Arabs living in the region long term; there were also Jews. It could be argued the concept of the "Palestinian people" is a political construct of the Arab world. That doesn't mean modern day Palestinians (as that's how they do identify now) don't have extremely serious grievances that do need addressing. Just don't diss Golda no more ...

With a mug like that, she had to be good.

Golda Meir was the only woman among the founding fathers of the state of Israel. In many ways, her story reflects the story of Israel itself. A working-class girl from pogrom-ridden Russia, she had a stormy adolescence in Milwaukee, emigrated to Palestine in 1921, ...

Indeed, far from being a regional icon, Meir personified the most paranoid, aggressive and racist attitudes of the Zionist movement when it came to dealing with the Arabs. She was afraid of Arabs, and her fears were fuelled by personal memories of pogroms and by the collective Jewish trauma of the Holocaust. Meir's position was simple: them or us. She absolutely refused to accept that the Arabs were moved by a sense of injustice, that they felt humiliated, or that they had a different narrative of the conflict in Palestine.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2008/aug/16/biography.politics

[Jingthing]

Regarding charges of antisemitism towards critics of Israeli policies. Sometimes that's charged unfairly and too often, and sometimes it should be charged based on substance when it isn't. Each case is different. Many people who are antisemitic do use criticism of Israel as a cover but you can't always tell based on some statements. There is a difference also between an antisemitic person and antisemitic comment. Not every word out an antisemite's mouth is going to confirm that they have that hate disease, but usually it doesn't take very long for them to come out of that closet.

Here is an excellent, objective way, to evaluate specific statements for antisemitic content --

http://fra.europa.eu/fraWebsite/material/pub/AS/AS-WorkingDefinition-draft.pdf

... criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic.

[Jingthing]

Golda Meir was the only woman among the founding fathers of the state of Israel. In many ways, her story reflects the story of Israel itself. A working-class girl from pogrom-ridden Russia, she had a stormy adolescence in Milwaukee, emigrated to Palestine in 1921, ...

Indeed, far from being a regional icon, Meir personified the most paranoid, aggressive and racist attitudes of the Zionist movement when it came to dealing with the Arabs. She was afraid of Arabs, and her fears were fuelled by personal memories of pogroms and by the collective Jewish trauma of the Holocaust. Meir's position was simple: them or us. She absolutely refused to accept that the Arabs were moved by a sense of injustice, that they felt humiliated, or that they had a different narrative of the conflict in Palestine.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2008/aug/16/biography.politics

The author of that is very wise. Remember, Golda was a product of her times and you can't really take her out of her historical context.

If you accept that Palestinians can and do adore the memory of Yassir Arafat, you can't really deny that many Jews adore the memory of pioneer Golda, warts and all.

Don't be shocked; I agree with most of this, from the same obviously left wing British- Israeli author.

This is an emotive subject so let me begin by stating where I stand. I have

never questioned the legitimacy of the Zionist movement or of the state of

Israel within its pre-June 1967 borders. What I reject, and reject totally, is the

Zionist colonial project beyond the 1967 border.

...

Zionism was, above all, the national liberation movement of the Jewish people but it

also upheld universal values like freedom, equality, socialism, and peace.

Post-1967 Zionism, however, both in its secular and in its religious varieties,

developed a territorial obsession.

http://www.melaniephillips.com/diary/archives/Zionism%20AS.pdf

There are still plenty of "old school" Zionists in the world.

Edited March 14, 2011 by Jingthing

[bangkokeddy]

Golda Meir was the only woman among the founding fathers of the state of Israel. In many ways, her story reflects the story of Israel itself. A working-class girl from pogrom-ridden Russia, she had a stormy adolescence in Milwaukee, emigrated to Palestine in 1921, ...

Indeed, far from being a regional icon, Meir personified the most paranoid, aggressive and racist attitudes of the Zionist movement when it came to dealing with the Arabs. She was afraid of Arabs, and her fears were fuelled by personal memories of pogroms and by the collective Jewish trauma of the Holocaust. Meir's position was simple: them or us. She absolutely refused to accept that the Arabs were moved by a sense of injustice, that they felt humiliated, or that they had a different narrative of the conflict in Palestine.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2008/aug/16/biography.politics

The author of that is very wise. Remember, Golda was a product of her times and you can't really take her out of her historical context.

If you accept that Palestinians can and do adore the memory of Yassir Arafat, you can't really deny that many Jews adore the memory of pioneer Golda, warts and all.

I don't post the top ten of Arafat best platitudes here.

You quoted Meir, not for making some historical reference but using her racist rhetoric in todays context.

[Ulysses G.]

"Peace will come when the Arabs start to love their children more than they hate us".

-Golda Meir

There is nothing "racist" about this. It is simply common sense considering the lack of peace partners.

Edited March 14, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[Jingthing]

I still like the quote. Learn something about how Hamas educates their youth, and I think honest people will still find merit in it.

Political leaders are complex beings. Harry Truman was a key figure in supporting the creation of the initial Israeli state, yet later we found out his personal opinions were very antisemitic (which were typical of people coming from his background).

About the type of settlers like the family that was murdered. I feel no sympathy or political allegiance to such people. I wouldn't want to hang out with them for even a coffee, and yes I have met some people like that, and I find them scary (and the feeling is mutual I'm sure). People talk about Jewish fascists, and yes you will find a kind of Jewish fascist ideology among those settlers (though to be fair they aren't all there for ideological reasons). There are major faults on both sides of this conflict. However, that doesn't mitigate the culpability of the murderers, especially of the innocent children.

Edited March 14, 2011 by Jingthing

[Steely Dan]

Regarding charges of antisemitism towards critics of Israeli policies. Sometimes that's charged unfairly and too often, and sometimes it should be charged based on substance when it isn't. Each case is different. Many people who are antisemitic do use criticism of Israel as a cover but you can't always tell based on some statements. There is a difference also between an antisemitic person and antisemitic comment. Not every word out an antisemite's mouth is going to confirm that they have that hate disease, but usually it doesn't take very long for them to come out of that closet.

Here is an excellent, objective way, to evaluate specific statements for antisemitic content --

http://fra.europa.eu/fraWebsite/material/pub/AS/AS-WorkingDefinition-draft.pdf

... criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic.

I don't need to mention names, but it's fairly obvious to a neutral observer that many posters here would fit squarely within the scope of the EU definition of antisemitism. The fact that sundry threads some not even about Israel are steered in that direction by posters intent on posting clearly biased if not antisemitic material and coming up with fantastical conspiracy theories to question for example whether or not the holocaust happened, or in this case whether or not two babies were murdered in their sleep by a terrorist organization, which even admitted to the crime.

[Ulysses G.]

There have been numerous posts on this forum blaming Jews for all the planet's problems and links to Nazi propaganda claiming that the Jews brought the Holocaust on themselves and deserved it.

I can only remember one of the anti-Israel posters ever commenting negatively - even briefly - on any of this propaganda, but these very same posters go on and on about how anti-Semitism is just a myth.

Edited March 14, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[Ulysses G.]

Israeli Textbooks and Children's Literature Promote Racism and Hatred Toward Palestinians and Arabs

This nonsense is from a monthly magazine that is published by the Washington-based anti-Israel American Educational Trust. Thai Visa is not a place for this kind of crap.

Edited March 14, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[metisdead]

Off topic anti semitic post and replies has been removed.

[Steely Dan]

Israeli Textbooks and Children's Literature Promote Racism and Hatred Toward Palestinians and Arabs

This nonsense is from a monthly magazine that is published by the Washington-based anti-Israel American Educational Trust. Thai Visa is not a place for this kind of crap.

Or perhaps it is in the sense that it's a safer bet to post mendacious racist nonsense on a Thailand based website and probably with a Thai I.P address than it would be to do so on a European equivalent. Certainly in the U.K a procedure called a Norwich Pharmacal can be used to compel a webmaster to divulge the I.P address of a poster who has potentially posted something actionable in either civil or criminal law.

[Ulysses G.]

They probably took that picture after the terrorists killed all those children.

[metisdead]

More posts meant to incite hatred have been removed.

The fact that many posters just cannot seem to be able to moderate themselves when it comes to an Israel/Palestine thread, it is time to close this thread.

//CLOSED//