How Well Off Is The Average Ex-Pat In Los?

[CharlieHarper]

The OP's question is a good one. It caught my eye immediately. There are so many people in differing circumstances though, that it ispossible to answer for all. I know many retirees that are finding it increasingly difficult to survive on just their pension. Some still have income from a property back home, and they tend to be better off, and also still have the option to return home. Then there are those trying to survive on a low income from teaching, for example, who cannot afford the same lifestyle they might have had a few years ago. And then there are those that have relatively high incomes, who can still enjoy a very good lifestyle, compared with what they could expect back in Europe. I have always been of the opinion that one should be careful with ones money, and save for a 'rainy day', so I put all my coins in a bottle, and live a fairly modest lifestyle..! One thing is for sure, the cost of living has gone up considerably since I moved here 20 years ago, and if you don't have some source of income, you will not live very well for long. For those people that 'sold up' everything, and moved to Thailand permanently, they will find it difficult to return to their home country, I would imagine..? One thing is for sure, nobody knows what lies ahead, so the best thing is to plan ahead, and live a modest and sensible life while you can. :jap:

I dont see how you can say the cost of living has gone up considerably over the past 20 years. I dont see it. Yes, the past 1-2 years there has been some big increases but I contribute this to the cost of fuel increase. 20 years ago i think the cost of living was the same if not more expensive, the exchange rate was down around 25B to the USD cost of khow pad was about 15-20B per plate, so yes the cost has gone up to 30B but with inflation and exchange rate i think we are about the same if not lower. it appears you are working as a teacher, Im sure you are getting paid more now than 20 years ago. I have seen the prices of several things come down, i would think this has to due with cheap imports from China and the expansion of industry in Thailand, with Thailand producing more and more goods here for both domestic and exports. Can you give me some examples of things that are considerably increased in the past 20 years but keeping in mind the exchange rate differences. (I agree that things are more expensive now due to exchange rate changes than what they were 10 years ago, when exchange rates were 40-45-50 to the USD) but comparing to 20 years dont agree.

Khow pad going up from 20B to 30B is a 50% increase.

Other things that have gone up are beer, hotels, gasoline, labour, property, land, commodities ......

We call this inflation.

Everything is clearly more expensive than 20 years ago.

Exchange rate fluctuations may make this greater or smaller depending on currency.

[CharlieHarper]

Now please attack me for my arrogance. Please put me right. [/Quote]

No need to put you right - you are arrogant......

[Moonrakers]

The mistake being made here seem to be that people complaining about being ripped off are short of money, I suspect that in most cases this simply is not true.

I'm not a great shopper, I don't enjoy it. I know little of how much things cost, because I take no interest in it. I would not go to a different shop to save a few baht on beer, I'd rather just go to whatever shop is closest.

What I do not find acceptable is deceit, not even for a single baht.

If a beer is for sale at 35 baht (for example), I'll buy it. If it is for sale at 30 baht, I expect to pay 30 baht for it. If I am charged 35 baht for something that I was informed would cost me 30, I want to know why.

It's not about saving money because I'd probably choose the more expensive option for a little extra convenience anyway, it's the deceit. Quite frankly I think those that turn a blind eye to it are in the wrong because they are encouraging a dishonest practice. It's all very big and clever to say how it's just a few baht and how they need it more blah blah, but deceit is just plain wrong and should be confronted.

As for things like being charged for a toilet, I want to drink in a place where I know that my custom is appreciated. If it is demonstrated that they are willing to take every opportunity to capitalise on the paying customers, I'll choose to go somewhere that does appreciate my custom.

[theoldgit]

An interesting debate, as the OP expected it would be, and I suspect a number of the comments were thrown in to liven it up, which they certainly did.

The OP makes the comment about not bothering with coins, whilst I could probably do the same, the fact that I don't is probably why I could do so, does that make sense? I didn't disregard coins in my home country so why should I here, in my opinion, to do so would show a sense of arrogance.

I do object to being short changed, I don't make a fuss about it but I do advise the vendor that they have made a mistake, if they correct it then fine if not I will, probably, not return and will tell the vendor why, though I accept they probably don't care.

When my partner and I shop we look out for the deals, I have all the loyalty cards like I had in my home country, and we live well, and yes I can also tell you who sells the best value beer, wine and mama..

We live in a decent apartment in a good part of Bangkok, we enjoy fine dining and go to glitzy bars, and whilst my girlfriend and I are comfortable at a black tie function at an embassy or an equally grand venue, we are just as comfortable eating at a local beer beer dressed in t-shirts and shorts, life is a balance.

I retired to Thailand nearly four years ago and regard it as my home, I am comfortably off with a decent index linked pension, and whilst the exchange rate has hit me for about 54k Baht a month we live very well.

So to sum up, I am far from being on the bread line, we eat and live well, we dress up or down depending on the venue and the mood, we don't waste or flaunt money, and I enjoy my adopted home very much.

[ericthai]

The OP's question is a good one. It caught my eye immediately. There are so many people in differing circumstances though, that it ispossible to answer for all. I know many retirees that are finding it increasingly difficult to survive on just their pension. Some still have income from a property back home, and they tend to be better off, and also still have the option to return home. Then there are those trying to survive on a low income from teaching, for example, who cannot afford the same lifestyle they might have had a few years ago. And then there are those that have relatively high incomes, who can still enjoy a very good lifestyle, compared with what they could expect back in Europe. I have always been of the opinion that one should be careful with ones money, and save for a 'rainy day', so I put all my coins in a bottle, and live a fairly modest lifestyle..! One thing is for sure, the cost of living has gone up considerably since I moved here 20 years ago, and if you don't have some source of income, you will not live very well for long. For those people that 'sold up' everything, and moved to Thailand permanently, they will find it difficult to return to their home country, I would imagine..? One thing is for sure, nobody knows what lies ahead, so the best thing is to plan ahead, and live a modest and sensible life while you can. :jap:

I dont see how you can say the cost of living has gone up considerably over the past 20 years. I dont see it. Yes, the past 1-2 years there has been some big increases but I contribute this to the cost of fuel increase. 20 years ago i think the cost of living was the same if not more expensive, the exchange rate was down around 25B to the USD cost of khow pad was about 15-20B per plate, so yes the cost has gone up to 30B but with inflation and exchange rate i think we are about the same if not lower. it appears you are working as a teacher, Im sure you are getting paid more now than 20 years ago. I have seen the prices of several things come down, i would think this has to due with cheap imports from China and the expansion of industry in Thailand, with Thailand producing more and more goods here for both domestic and exports. Can you give me some examples of things that are considerably increased in the past 20 years but keeping in mind the exchange rate differences. (I agree that things are more expensive now due to exchange rate changes than what they were 10 years ago, when exchange rates were 40-45-50 to the USD) but comparing to 20 years dont agree.

Khow pad going up from 20B to 30B is a 50% increase.

Other things that have gone up are beer, hotels, gasoline, labour, property, land, commodities ......

We call this inflation.

Everything is clearly more expensive than 20 years ago.

Exchange rate fluctuations may make this greater or smaller depending on currency.

I think you need to read better, 20B when the exchange rate is at 25 baht ($0.80USD) and 30 baht when the exchange rate is at 31 baht ($0.96) that's not a 50% increase, about a 20% increase. Also you missed my point, I was saying taking into consideration of inflation and exchange rates between now and 20 years ago, I don't see a considerable increase in prices. Late 90's everything crashed and almost over night the costs of everything dropped by almost 50%, increases have taken place to make up for the falling thai baht, but again if you compare prices back 20 years ago and prices now and taking inflation into consideration and exchange rates things are not that much more expensive if not cheaper. Another example is one of the hotels I used to stay at in the late 80's i paid 500 baht a night, now 20 years later 700 baht, now like I said exchange rate of 25B that is $20, 20 years ago and now it's $22 taking inflation into consideration the price has actually gone down. So I dont agree with you that everything is more expensive than 20 years ago.

[Slip]

The exchange rate between Thailand and the UK/US or anywhere else has absolutely NOTHING to do with the increase in the cost of living in Thailand.

Unless you're dependent on money from those places of course: Is your average expat? I guess they are. I'm not , so I would agree with CharlieHarper that the actual cost of living in Thailand has increased quite a bit in my ten years here.

[SantiSuk]

"P.S. I am not one who fancies the village life plodding around in shorts and sandals."

And I, who lives in a Thai village, do not fancy the British cycling life, footling around in lycra.

[Actually I do rather, but that kind of spoils the defensive riposte ]

[jdinasia]

The exchange rate between Thailand and the UK/US or anywhere else has absolutely NOTHING to do with the increase in the cost of living in Thailand.

Unless you're dependent on money from those places of course: Is your average expat? I guess they are. I'm not , so I would agree with CharlieHarper that the actual cost of living in Thailand has increased quite a bit in my ten years here.

I guess if you sold up .. and have no pension from the West, that would be true for an expat. I think most expats still have assets outside of Thailand.

[CaptHaddock]

"My intention is not to boast in any way but I would have thought that a pre-requisite to "emigrating" to Thailand was to be well off. It is not a place that is much fun on the cheap."

Sounds like your intention is very much to boast. But please do identify the places are are "fun on the cheap" of which your neighbors are so regrettably ignorant. The U.K.? The US?

[Beechboy]

"My intention is not to boast in any way but I would have thought that a pre-requisite to "emigrating" to Thailand was to be well off. It is not a place that is much fun on the cheap."

Sounds like your intention is very much to boast. But please do identify the places are are "fun on the cheap" of which your neighbors are so regrettably ignorant. The U.K.? The US?

I have nothing to boast about I assure you my friend.

I made the very true observation that there are an unusual lot of posts on this board which are about "baht-pinching," which is not the case with people who are not full-timers like myself. Clearly this trait is part of becoming "Thaid" (if that is the expression,) but grumbling about a couple of baht on a bag of rice is difficult to understand when, despite current rates, the country is still very cheap.

My experience from ex-pat friends, of which I have a few, has lead to my, "No fun on the cheap," comment. Two teacher-friends for example drink at the same bar as I do. They have to ration their nights out and ration the beers they have when they come out, unless I buy them one (Oh! boasting.)

If they followed the same profession in England/US (as they are qualified to do) they would not have to exist like that.

Neither do I confine my experience to just teachers, the usual suspects, there are others who cling onto LOS like leeches on low pay (eg. from call centre type work,) with no particualr prospects and certainly no such thing as pension rights.

I still think overall that they have made a good choice by doing what they do and where they do it because the Country is addictive and the plusses outweigh the minusses, but it is not total and there are quite a few things about permanent life in LOS which come back to bite you. A low income in line with a low cost of living is fair enough, but add to this the cost of medical needs (free in the UK) and the lack of a proper social security net or pension system and it cannot be much fun. Local antagonism is evident on accasions too, as you would expect for an immigrant in any country.

I am staid, and possibly a bit traditional, but I could not live on such thin ice and consider future security necessary at all times and in all situations.

Also, as I stated, I am no village type. I very much envy those who are and are happy that way, but such an existence would not satisfy me. I have a friend who chooses this life-style with his wife and family and buffalo and snakes in the porch. He is blissfully happy, but I sometimes get the impression, when I visit him, that he seems to have to talk-up his lifestyle in order to convince us both that his existence is actually the ideal he would like to think it is.

As one poster said, "There is no such thing as the average ex-pat," This is most true and renders my O/P pointless.

My experience remains rather narrow and my observations just that, observations.

No criticism intended, so no insults wanted.

[robblok]

I have nothing to boast about I assure you my friend.

I made the very true observation that there are an unusually lot of posts on this board which are about "baht-pinching," which is not the case with people who are not full-timers like myself. Clearly this trait is part of becoming "Thaid" (if that is the expression,) but grumbling about a couple of baht on a bag of rice is difficult to understand when, despite current rates, the country is still very cheap.

My experience from ex-pat friends, of which I have a few, has lead to my, "Fun on the cheap," comment. Two teacher-friends for example drink at the same bar as I do. They have to ration their nights out and ration the beers they have when they come out, unless I buy them one. .

If they followed the same profession in England/US (as they are qualified to do) they would not have to exist like that.

Neither do I confine my experience to just teachers, the usual suspects, there are others who cling onto LOS like leeches on low pay (eg. from call centre type work,) with no particualr prospects and certainly no such thing as pension rights.

I still think overall that they have made a good choice by doing what they do and where they do it, but it is not total and there are quite a few things about permanent life in LOS which come back to bite you, a low income in line with a low cost of living is fair enough, but add to this the cost of medical needs (free in the UK) and the lack of a proper social security net or pension system and it cannot be much fun.

I am staid, and possibly a bit traditional, but I could not live on such thin ice and consider future security necessary at all times and in all situations.

Also, as I stated, I am no village type. I very much envy those who are and are happy that way, but such an existence would not satisfy me. I have a friend who chooses this life-style with his wife and family and buffalo and snakes in the porch. He is blissfully happy, but I sometimes get the impression, when I visit him, that he seems to have to talk-up his lifestyle in order to convince us both that his existence is actually the ideal he would like to think it is.

As one poster said, "There is no such thing as the average ex-pat," This is most true and renders my O/P pointless.

My experience remains rather narrow and my observations just that, observations.

No criticism intended, so no insults wanted.

I would love to live more rural .. i already live more rural then most in BKK because i live a little bit outside of it. But the problem is internet and my gf's work. So i cant.

I am tight with my money at times or spend like there is no tomorrow. It all depends where i spend it on and if i think i can get it cheaper somewhere else (without too much of a hassle)

[Slip]

I'm not being overly defensive, I'm pointing out your offensiveness.

I do see what you're getting at, but it's you're use of stereotypes (specifically about teachers) that I'm objecting to. I see it a lot of it on this board and it's just boring.

I apologise for the idiot comment, but you ARE coming across as a snob.

[RAZZELL]

Although it's an interesting topic, I would say my main concern is about lifestyle...or perhaps "quality of life".

Having done years of research (on the piss ) I've guesstimated the following to live in Bkk:

A net income of a 100-120k baht a month would approximately give you the lifestyle of someone earning 4 times that in London.

So, with £2k+ in BKK, you could live the same life as if you were earning £8k in London...

RAZZ

[rgs2001uk]

I'm not being overly defensive, I'm pointing out your offensiveness.

I do see what you're getting at, but it's you're use of stereotypes (specifically about teachers) that I'm objecting to. I see it a lot of it on this board and it's just boring.

I apologise for the idiot comment, but you ARE coming across as a snob.

I suppose it depends on how you define a "teacher".

What I would define as offensive would be the farangs masquerading as "teachers" and the establishments that charge for the services provided by the so called "teachers" they employ.

I am referring to those "teachers" who are to be found at either, Big C Lat Prao or Tesco/Lotus Bang Kapi, I wont name these fine educational establishments, others will know where I mean.

As for being a snob, more like a realist, never ceases to amaze me how educated degree qualified people are willing to work for a paper boys salary just to stay here, whats the attraction, living in some scuzzy 3,000 baht per month condo and existing on a diet of jok and khao man gai isnt excactly what I would call living the dream.

Horses for courses or, up to you as they say here.

"but it's you're use of stereotypes (specifically about teachers)"

There is a reason these stereotypes exist, take a look at your fellow "teachers" and you will understand.

[soundman]

Flames removed.

Please keep it civil.

[Slip]

OK - let's make this simple for you all.

Take a large group of people. Analyse them. They will all be different. I know many teachers who are excellent at their job; I know many that are not. I know many foreigners in Thailand who wear shorts and many that do not. Some people are honest some are not, And so on.

A farang who is 'masquerading' as a teacher, whilst making no effort to improve his value to the student is a poor teacher. That is all. It does not give you the right to denigrate the profession, or those who practise it, as if you are in some way better.

[robblok]

OK - let's make this simple for you all.

Take a large group of people. Analyse them. They will all be different. I know many teachers who are excellent at their job; I know many that are not. I know many foreigners in Thailand who wear shorts and many that do not. Some people are honest some are not, And so on.

A farang who is 'masquerading' as a teacher, whilst making no effort to improve his value to the student is a poor teacher. That is all. It does not give you the right to denigrate the profession, or those who practise it, as if you are in some way better.

Does not everyone wants to become better at their chosen job and strive to improve ? I know i do but im self employed and if i do my job better i see financial gains.

[Beechboy]

OK - let's make this simple for you all.

Take a large group of people. Analyse them. They will all be different. I know many teachers who are excellent at their job; I know many that are not. I know many foreigners in Thailand who wear shorts and many that do not. Some people are honest some are not, And so on.

A farang who is 'masquerading' as a teacher, whilst making no effort to improve his value to the student is a poor teacher. That is all. It does not give you the right to denigrate the profession, or those who practise it, as if you are in some way better.

Does not everyone wants to become better at their chosen job and strive to improve ? I know i do but im self employed and if i do my job better i see financial gains.

This post is NOt about teachers. I happened to be aquainted to couple of them so mention their respective situations. I work in the medical profession in BKK ( not too much though) and know nothing about teaching in LOS except what I have gleaned from my 2/3 teacher friends.

The sensitivety of our teacher friend took this conversation way off topic and he carefully avoided the main questions that I put forward because he was obsessed with defending (and being abusive.).

[robblok]

Actually being well of is a strange term, some people don't have enough money with 250k a month and others can live quite well on 30k a month. So what is well of ? A lot of money or being able to get around with the money you make.

I started out with really little money when i came here (had some nice reserves) because i just started my business. Now i make good money but im still not rich but i have noticed the more i make the more i spend. Im pretty sure its the same with everyone. I see the same thing happening with my clients (im an accountant). So what is well off ? Making loads of money.. or using the money (how ever much or little) it is to lead a life without being short on it.

[pjclark1]

I am still adding to my retirement back "home", and paying back into my retirement accounts what I spent in my first few years living in Thailand. My income from working here more than covers my expenses here. Rental properties back in the US do the rest. Who knows I may retire again when I hit 50, but by then I should have the sustainable income here in Thailand to far more than qualify for retirement

I know people that burnt their bridges when they left "home" and they are suffering. Invested too much in Thailand, aren't getting as many Baht:Dollar (euro/pound whatever) ... I have a friend that moved from a 4 BR house with a pool on the edge of BKK into a 2 BR old condo and is now looking for work in his 60's, and he has no exit plan at all.

His life went from FUN to SAD in a heartbeat.

2 rules --- 1) ALWAYS have an exit plan and 2) Never dip into the exit plan $

Many people don't have an 'exit plan' in their home countries either.

It's not much fun being poor no matter where you live.

I could be living in a bedsit in the UK, claiming social, not having enough money to eat well or heat the place, on my own.

or

I could be living in a condo in Thailand, feeling warm, living with a girl half my age, eating plenty of Thai food.

If you have to be poor, far more fun being poor in Thailand!

[thedistillers]

Expat forums generally seem to attract a lot of whiners and it has little to do with how much money they earn; money is just an excuse to whine. You should also notice how some people here complain about every aspect of life.

Reading a New Zealand expat forum, it was fascinating to see how similar the whining is, how the way Kiwi men are described is a copy/paste of what some people here say about Thai men, etc. I think it doesn't matter where you are, or how much money you have, some people are just bitter and will find any reason to spread their negativity online.

It's understandable though. Moving to another country is a gamble and the risk of ending up miserable is very real. I can't blame people for venting their frustrations online.

[charlie1968]

I am still adding to my retirement back "home", and paying back into my retirement accounts what I spent in my first few years living in Thailand. My income from working here more than covers my expenses here. Rental properties back in the US do the rest. Who knows I may retire again when I hit 50, but by then I should have the sustainable income here in Thailand to far more than qualify for retirement

I know people that burnt their bridges when they left "home" and they are suffering. Invested too much in Thailand, aren't getting as many Baht:Dollar (euro/pound whatever) ... I have a friend that moved from a 4 BR house with a pool on the edge of BKK into a 2 BR old condo and is now looking for work in his 60's, and he has no exit plan at all.

His life went from FUN to SAD in a heartbeat.

2 rules --- 1) ALWAYS have an exit plan and 2) Never dip into the exit plan $

Many people don't have an 'exit plan' in their home countries either.

It's not much fun being poor no matter where you live.

I could be living in a bedsit in the UK, claiming social, not having enough money to eat well or heat the place, on my own.

or

I could be living in a condo in Thailand, feeling warm, living with a girl half my age, eating plenty of Thai food.

If you have to be poor, far more fun being poor in Thailand!

totaly agree

[gregb]

The OP's question is a good one. It caught my eye immediately. There are so many people in differing circumstances though, that it ispossible to answer for all. I know many retirees that are finding it increasingly difficult to survive on just their pension. Some still have income from a property back home, and they tend to be better off, and also still have the option to return home. Then there are those trying to survive on a low income from teaching, for example, who cannot afford the same lifestyle they might have had a few years ago. And then there are those that have relatively high incomes, who can still enjoy a very good lifestyle, compared with what they could expect back in Europe. I have always been of the opinion that one should be careful with ones money, and save for a 'rainy day', so I put all my coins in a bottle, and live a fairly modest lifestyle..! One thing is for sure, the cost of living has gone up considerably since I moved here 20 years ago, and if you don't have some source of income, you will not live very well for long. For those people that 'sold up' everything, and moved to Thailand permanently, they will find it difficult to return to their home country, I would imagine..? One thing is for sure, nobody knows what lies ahead, so the best thing is to plan ahead, and live a modest and sensible life while you can. :jap:

I dont see how you can say the cost of living has gone up considerably over the past 20 years. I dont see it. Yes, the past 1-2 years there has been some big increases but I contribute this to the cost of fuel increase. 20 years ago i think the cost of living was the same if not more expensive, the exchange rate was down around 25B to the USD cost of khow pad was about 15-20B per plate, so yes the cost has gone up to 30B but with inflation and exchange rate i think we are about the same if not lower. it appears you are working as a teacher, Im sure you are getting paid more now than 20 years ago. I have seen the prices of several things come down, i would think this has to due with cheap imports from China and the expansion of industry in Thailand, with Thailand producing more and more goods here for both domestic and exports. Can you give me some examples of things that are considerably increased in the past 20 years but keeping in mind the exchange rate differences. (I agree that things are more expensive now due to exchange rate changes than what they were 10 years ago, when exchange rates were 40-45-50 to the USD) but comparing to 20 years dont agree.

Khow pad going up from 20B to 30B is a 50% increase.

Other things that have gone up are beer, hotels, gasoline, labour, property, land, commodities ......

We call this inflation.

Everything is clearly more expensive than 20 years ago.

Exchange rate fluctuations may make this greater or smaller depending on currency.

I think you need to read better, 20B when the exchange rate is at 25 baht ($0.80USD) and 30 baht when the exchange rate is at 31 baht ($0.96) that's not a 50% increase, about a 20% increase. Also you missed my point, I was saying taking into consideration of inflation and exchange rates between now and 20 years ago, I don't see a considerable increase in prices. Late 90's everything crashed and almost over night the costs of everything dropped by almost 50%, increases have taken place to make up for the falling thai baht, but again if you compare prices back 20 years ago and prices now and taking inflation into consideration and exchange rates things are not that much more expensive if not cheaper. Another example is one of the hotels I used to stay at in the late 80's i paid 500 baht a night, now 20 years later 700 baht, now like I said exchange rate of 25B that is $20, 20 years ago and now it's $22 taking inflation into consideration the price has actually gone down. So I dont agree with you that everything is more expensive than 20 years ago.

I don't agree with you not agreeing. I get paid in Baht. It is totally irrelevant to me what things cost in USD, just as it is irrelevant that they are cheaper in terms of gold bricks. Nobody pays my salary in gold bricks, and nobody gives me USD.

Prices for most things in Thailand have more than doubled in the last 10 years. That is inflation. Period. The fact that some things fell in value before that is likewise irrelevant as well to people who built their expectations on the last decade. If you want to say Thailand was unusually cheap 10 years ago and now it isn't, that is a valid argument. But don't say there has been no inflation. That is disingenuous.

Kao pad boo was 15 baht in 1999. Today, it is 40 baht. We can go back and forth with examples all day long if you want, but in the end, prices have increased on average for all the things that we need in order to live.