"oil" Or "oy"?

[yoot]

I would like to point out something. Since English is an international language, other countries which have their own languages have their own ways to transliterate or transcribe foreign names to their languages. For foreigners you can't say that they transcribe your name wrong. You name is pronounces like this so they have to write it as it's pronounced. In fact you have to accept that they have to write it in the way that they can know how your name is written in English.

For example;

Michael- if we transcribe it in the various ways as it's recommended in this thread, the problem is Thais would have no idea how this name is written in English. The same as 'Roger', it is pronounced as รดเจอะ but if you use this transcription you would have a problem which is people would ask you how it's spelled in English. But if you use โรเจอร์ most of people would understand that it's from 'Roger'. That's the point.

As in Chinese language, you would find that the transcription of foreigne names much stranger than Thai lanuage. It's because there is not any Chinese words which can represent the correct sound of English name. They would transcribe English name in their own ways. For example, 'Tom' in Chinese it's ' Tang mu' big different, right? But almost all of Chinese people know that is 'Tom' in English

When in Rome , do as the Romans

[yoot]

Another thing which I would like to point out. All of foreigners thought that Thais pronounce English words sound ridiculous. Well, we are speaking Thai not English. When a word is written in Thai language ,Thais have our rights to pronounce it in the Thai way. But if they were talking in English with you, yes, you could make fun with their pronunciation if you thought it's funny for you.

Many of high ranker people said, Thais are ruining Thai language by pronouce it as the western style. And for the linguistics here who are expert in English, please don't mix up Thai language's rules with English language's rules. Unless you know all the Thai language's rules clearly enough. I read many of you said it shoule be this, that, these, those compare with English, including the transliterate system, No, if you want to learn Thai, follow by Thai. If you want to learn Chinese, follow by Chinese. Don't mix up!! Many of you mentioned are not in any of Thai grammar's rules. You just established your own rules!

[newworks]

Another thing which I would like to point out.  All of foreigners thought that Thais pronounce English words sound ridiculous.  Well, we are speaking Thai not English.  When a word is written in Thai language ,Thais have our rights to pronounce it in the Thai way. But if they were talking in English with you, yes, you could make fun with their pronunciation if you thought it's funny for you.

Many of high ranker people said, Thais are ruining Thai language by pronouce it as the western style.  And for the linguistics here who are expert in English, please don't mix up Thai language's rules with English language's rules.  Unless you know all the Thai language's rules clearly enough.  I read many of you said it shoule be this, that, these, those compare with English, including the transliterate system, No, if you want to learn Thai, follow by Thai.  If you want to learn Chinese, follow by Chinese. Don't mix up!!  Many of you mentioned are not in any of Thai grammar's rules.  You just established your own rules! 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

phom hen duay khrap!

[Edward B]

She said: "We need some more oy".

I said: "It's pronounced 'Oil', dear".

She says: "No. It's 'Oy' ".

"No", I say, "You must try to say 'Oil' ".

"No", she says, "Thai people say "Oy".

When a word is written in Thai language ,Thais have our rights to pronounce it in the Thai way.

ไม่เห็นด้วย.

If an Englishman pronounced the borrowed French word 'rendezvous' as 'ren-dez-vowce', instead of the correct 'ron-day-voo' then they would be laughed at and perceived as lowly educated. So why can't Thais pronounce borrowed words as they are pronounced in the original language? Are they afraid of being perceived as over-educated? Heaven forbid.

[Mr. Farang]

No, if you want to learn Thai, follow by Thai.  If you want to learn Chinese, follow by Chinese. Don't mix up!!  Many of you mentioned are not in any of Thai grammar's rules.  You just established your own rules! 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dear Khun Yoot,

There are no grammer rules for transcription or transliteration. Grammar is about how to build sentences, not translate individual names, na krap.

So, my dear friend, let's talk about the same thing, na krap. We first need to agree we are not talking about grammar and making up grammar rules, as this is not about building sentences, krap phom. We have been talking mostly about English-Thai transcription (sound translation). Thai people certainly do not agree on transcription rules and methods, na krap. Which rules are you talking about Khun Yoot, please provide them, na krap.

What Thai rules of transcription do you think we should follow? Or do you think that transcription is bad and there should only be transliteration (spelling mapping). They are not the same (transcription / transliteration) and there are many, many methods in Thailand for doing both. Thai Airways in-inflight magazine recently pointed out about 15 different methods, none were in agreement on the same topic we are talking about.

Kindly provide a pointer to the rules you are advocating. Perhaps you can upload the PDF file of the English-Thai transcription rules you are referencing?

Your sincerely, Mr. Farang

Edited September 19, 2005 by Mr. Farang

[meadish_sweetball]

She said: "We need some more oy".

I said: "It's pronounced 'Oil', dear".

She says: "No. It's 'Oy' ".

"No", I say, "You must try to say 'Oil' ".

"No", she says, "Thai people say "Oy".

When a word is written in Thai language ,Thais have our rights to pronounce it in the Thai way.

ไม่เห็นด้วย.

If an Englishman pronounced the borrowed French word 'rendezvous' as 'ren-dez-vowce', instead of the correct 'ron-day-voo' then they would be laughed at and perceived as lowly educated. So why can't Thais pronounce borrowed words as they are pronounced in the original language? Are they afraid of being perceived as over-educated? Heaven forbid.

Personally, I think Yoot's point is very valid - while there may be no exact rules for transcribing English names into Thai, there is definitely an established practice, as seen in Thai dailies, for example. If you ask all Thais with tertiary education what spellings in Thai they would use for the 50 most common English names, I am certain that there would not be that much individual variation.

Also, the truth is, "ron-day-voo" as spoken by your average native speaker of English is still rather heavily accented from a French point of view...

First, the 'r' sound. There is only one dialect in Britain that uses a uvular 'r', which is the 'r' of choice in Standard French. The vast majority of English variations use retroflex and alveolar versions of 'r'. Using an alveolar 'r', if trilled, can be acceptable for French (especially among upper-class people and Africans), but the retroflex sound is clearly wrong.

'on' is not the same as 'en' pronounced in standard French. French 'en' is a nasal vowel where the 'n' is not sounded, a fact which most speakers of English would not pay any attention to.

'dez' in French has no vowel glide (but most English dialects pronounce 'ay' with a more or less marked glide).

'voo' is the only part of the word that sounds similar to the original word as pronounced in Standard French.¨

So there we have it. Loan words in all languages are all removed from the original pronunciations - using phonetically perfect representations of another language's words in your mother tongue is bound to cause some people to call you a show-off.

[Tywais]

In doing more research on the subject, I came across a couple of sites that may be of interest to members here.

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclope...ai_language.htm

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclope...anscription.htm

[Edward B]

<SNIP>So there we have it. Loan words in all languages are all removed from the original pronunciations - using phonetically perfect representations of another language's words in your mother tongue is bound to cause some people to call you a show-off.

Show off

Just kidding...

Me: May I borrow your stapler, Nit?

Nit: Huh?

Me: ขอยืมเสตเปล้อหน่อยได้ไหมครับ

Nit: อะไรนะคะ

Me: สะ เต เปล้อ นี่ (pointing to her stapler on the desk)

Nit: อ้อ แม็กหรือ ได้ค่ะ

Me: อะไรนะ

Nit: แม็ก เรียกว่า "แม็ก"

On the stapler was the brand name "MAX", apparently the most common producer of Thai staplers.

[meadish_sweetball]

<SNIP>So there we have it. Loan words in all languages are all removed from the original pronunciations - using phonetically perfect representations of another language's words in your mother tongue is bound to cause some people to call you a show-off.

Show off

Just kidding...

Me: May I borrow your stapler, Nit?

Nit: Huh?

Me: ขอยืมเสตเปล้อหน่อยได้ไหมครับ

Nit: อะไรนะคะ

Me: สะ เต เปล้อ นี่ (pointing to her stapler on the desk)

Nit: อ้อ แม็กหรือ ได้ค่ะ

Me: อะไรนะ

Nit: แม็ก เรียกว่า "แม็ก"

On the stapler was the brand name "MAX", apparently the most common producer of Thai staplers.

Yes, these generic names are quite funny. My GF calls the staplers 'law maek' (possibly ลอแม็ก, I actually never asked her what the 'law' comes from, but my guess is that this could be a Thai word denoting a.) a device that was used in Thailand before staplers were introduced or b.) another word for stapler that has fallen out of fashion...

Does anybody know?

[Mr. Farang]

So there we have it. Loan words in all languages are all removed from the original pronunciations - using phonetically perfect representations of another language's words in your mother tongue is bound to cause some people to call you a show-off.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Interesting observation Khun Meadish. Your opinion is valid, as are others opinions. I don't think, however, anyone is "showing off"........ most, if not all people here, appear to love Thai language and have a genuine interest in how to construct their name in Thai so the Thai prounouncation is valid. Everyone wants to learn more - everyone benefits from collaboration.

All things are conditioned - and the Buddha taught us. Some people want to emphasize correct spelling (transliteration), which create situations where the Thai pronounciation is wrong. Some want to emphasize correct prounciation (transcription) and are less concerned about spelling. Some might even be willing to change their spelling if it pleases them.

This is the "beauty of life"..... when two systems are incongruent and sometimes, you cannot have both - correct spelling and correct pronounciation. Flexibilty and adaptability are very important. ..... Someone wanting correct pronounciation is not "showing off"... it is simple a desired effect based on a desired outcome.

More importantly, my glass of Chilean Merlot is most excellent.... yum yum ! Can I offer you a glass?

Yours sincerely, Mr. Farang

[meadish_sweetball]

Mr. Farang, the comments about showing off were not directed to anyone here, but rather just an observation based on my own experience.

When I discuss Thailand in Swedish with people back home and pronounce the names of known tourist sites in Thailand: Phuket, Ko Phangan, Ko Phi Phi, Kanchanaburi, etc., according to their Thai pronunciation with tones and all, people stare at me. I often find I have to scrap the tones, otherwise people don't understand me.

As for my experience of Merlot and Chilean wines in general, it's very positive - so I'd love a glass - thank you.

Cheers!

[loong]

She said: "We need some more oy".

I said: "It's pronounced 'Oil', dear".

She says: "No. It's 'Oy' ".

"No", I say, "You must try to say 'Oil' ".

"No", she says, "Thai people say "Oy".

When a word is written in Thai language ,Thais have our rights to pronounce it in the Thai way.

ไม่เห็นด้วย.

If an Englishman pronounced the borrowed French word 'rendezvous' as 'ren-dez-vowce', instead of the correct 'ron-day-voo' then they would be laughed at and perceived as lowly educated. So why can't Thais pronounce borrowed words as they are pronounced in the original language? Are they afraid of being perceived as over-educated? Heaven forbid.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If a word is borrowed from a foreign language, it is no longer a foreign word, it is a word new native word with origins from a foreign language. If the foreign pronounciation is impossible using Thai rules, then it should be pronouced as it is written.

This is my opinion. I really like the fact that Thai pronounciation follows relatively simple rules, ie the way it is written is the way it is spoken. There are some exception to the rules, but not too many.

One thing I don't understand....

Names like Peter...

Words like helicopter and computer that have been adopted, they use Dtor - Bpa - Dtuk instead of Tor-Ta-Hahn.

The pronounciation of these words have been changed when there is no apparent need to.

As for the reverse

Why do westerners pronounce

Phuket, Pattaya, Koh Samui, Mae Sai, The bridge over the river Kwai etc wrong?

Why do they pronounce Groong Tayp as Bangkok?

[Tywais]

Phuket, Pattaya, Koh Samui, Mae Sai, The bridge over the river Kwai etc wrong?

I remember when I requested personallized license plates in the US for "Phuket" and was refused on the grounds of profanity It never even occured to me it could be pronounced differently.

Why do they pronounce Groong Tayp as Bangkok?

Probably because they can

[Mr. Farang]

Mr. Farang, the comments about showing off were not directed to anyone here, but rather just an observation based on my own experience.

When I discuss Thailand in Swedish with people back home and pronounce the names of known tourist sites in Thailand: Phuket, Ko Phangan, Ko Phi Phi, Kanchanaburi, etc., according to their Thai pronunciation with tones and all, people stare at me. I often find I have to scrap the tones, otherwise people don't understand me.

As for my experience of Merlot and Chilean wines in general, it's very positive - so I'd love a glass - thank you.

Cheers!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

OH! Thanks for explaining. Sorry.... illustrating the limitations of on-line discussions.... I am pleased to understand your meaning better, Khun Meadish, na krap. So, in Sweden they think you are "showing off" when you pronounce Thai names and places correctly? I would have never known if you had not mentioned. Thanks! My experiences are quite different, and friends in my country tend to admire and defer to me to order all the Thai food, and then, pay the bill (just kidding!).

Well, I'm having my second glass of Chilean Merlot, so here's to you and to all of the fine folks we have collaborated with on this "gaaran" topic.

ไชโย!

[meadish_sweetball]

Phuket, Pattaya, Koh Samui, Mae Sai, The bridge over the river Kwai etc wrong?

I remember when I requested personallized license plates in the US for "Phuket" and was refused on the grounds of profanity It never even occured to me it could be pronounced differently.

Classic!! They probably thought you were some gangsta-rapper wannabe.

[Mr. Farang]

In doing more research on the subject, I came across a couple of sites that may be of interest to members here.

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclope...ai_language.htm

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclope...anscription.htm

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks Khun Michael,

I thought this quote from your referenced links was excellent:

Analytic languages [like Thai and Chinese]often express abstract concepts using independent words, while synthetic languages [like German] tend to use adpositions, affixes and internal modifications of roots for the same purpose.

Analytic languages have stricter and more elaborate syntactic rules. Since words are not marked by morphology showing their role in the sentence, word order tends to carry a lot of importance; for example, Chinese and English make use of word order to show subject-object relationship. Chinese also uses word order to show  (Click link for more info and facts about definitiveness) definitiveness (where English uses "the" and "a"),  (Click link for more info and facts about topic-comment) topic-comment relationships, the role of  (A word that modifies something other than a noun) adverbs (whether they are descriptive or contrastive), and so on.

Analytic languages tend to rely heavily on context and pragmatic considerations for the interpretation of sentences, since they don't specify as much as synthetic languages in terms of agreement and cross-reference between different parts of the sentence.

[Richard W]

Why do they pronounce Groong Tayp as Bangkok?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Same reason they pronounce Deutschland as Germany.

(The boring reason is that Bangkok is an earlier name for the area.)

[meadish_sweetball]

Why do they pronounce Groong Tayp as Bangkok?

Same reason they pronounce Deutschland as Germany.

(The boring reason is that Bangkok is an earlier name for the area.)

Just don't tell the Germans, there'd be a rebellion.

[RDN]

...A strange event happened when replying - I clicked 'reply' and a null reply was immediately posted.   ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If I am writing a long, complicated reply, I often copy it into Notepad before hitting the "Preview Post" or "Add Reply" buttons - just in case

[Richard W]

One thing I don't understand....

Names like Peter...

Words like helicopter and computer that have been adopted, they use Dtor - Bpa - Dtuk instead of Tor-Ta-Hahn.

The pronounciation of these words have been changed when there is no apparent need to.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You mean to tao (ต), not to patak (ฏ).

The short technical answer is VOT - voicing onset time, the time from the (generally explosive) release of air in an oral stop consonant to the start of voicing. Early voice onset produces a voiced stop (e.g. บ), late voice onset produces a voiceless aspirate (e.g. พ), and an intermediate timing produces an unaspirated voiceless stop (e.g. ป). In English, voice onset is later at the start of a stressed syllable, so Thais hear the contrast p v. b as พ v. บ, whereas in an unstressed syllable the contrast is closer to ป v. บ. Actually, an English /b/ at the start of a stressed syllable is also close to ป - the voicing is often so late that English /b/ is voiceless.

[RDN]

... 'Roger', it is pronounced as รดเจอะ but if you use this transcription you would have a problem which is people would ask you how it's spelled in English. But if you use โรเจอร์ most of people would understand that it's from 'Roger'...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think I'll get my name changed by Deed Poll to "Rodja", then I can spell it in Thai as รดเจอะ and everyone'll be happy! (Except my mum.)

[RDN]

Another thing which I would like to point out.  All of foreigners thought that Thais pronounce English words sound ridiculous....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not this foreigner!

[RDN]

If an Englishman pronounced the borrowed French word 'rendezvous' as 'ren-dez-vowce', instead of the correct 'ron-day-voo' then they would be laughed at and perceived as lowly educated. So why can't Thais pronounce borrowed words as they are pronounced in the original language? Are they afraid of being perceived as over-educated? Heaven forbid.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I had a similar problem yesterday explaining to the g/f that I really liked the way she had cooked some "saute potatoes". When I spelt "saute" she was very confused until I explained that it was a French word, and they speak funny over there.

[Tywais]

Took a poll at CMU among a spectrum of people. Secretaries, student (Grad/Undergrad), technicians and ajarns.

1. ไมคูล์

2. ไมคุล์

3. ไมเคิล์

4. ไมเคิล

5. มิคาเอล

6. ไมคูลล์

Number 4 unanimously. Asked about number 3 and they said they don't understand it and it was just plain wrong. Number 6 got a few chuckles and number 5 comments were it was German. One ajarn gave me a bit of a discourse in Thai language structures. He said that when converting from English to Thai they use a combination of transliteration and transcription so that it makes sense, proper spelling and can be reasonably pronounced.

He gave me an example because there has been attempts to turn engineering/physics terms into Thai words. The word 'resonance'. My apologies for not remembering what the Thai word was (something tong I believe) but he refuses to use it in his classes because he thinks it is silly and confusing and prefers the english word. Essentially he was saying that attempts to create a Thai word (not transliteration/transcription) to have the same meaning as the physics term wasn't realistic and most ajarns won't use them.

Thank you all on this thread for making an entertaining couple of days. Definitely learned a few things.

Edited September 19, 2005 by tywais

[RDN]

Yes, these generic names are quite funny. My GF calls the staplers 'law maek' (possibly ลอแม็ก,...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

...and I never call a vacuum cleaner "a Hoover".

[RDN]

Why do they pronounce Groong Tayp as Bangkok?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Same reason they pronounce Deutschland as Germany....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Netherlands, Holland, Dutch, Pays-Bas.... OMG

[Mr. Farang]

Thank you all on this thread for making an entertaining couple of days.  Definitely learned a few things.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sanook!

I learned a lot also. I'll never forget this thread and all these things I learned from everyone. Thanks and take care, na krap.

[yoot]

No, if you want to learn Thai, follow by Thai.  If you want to learn Chinese, follow by Chinese. Don't mix up!!  Many of you mentioned are not in any of Thai grammar's rules.  You just established your own rules!  

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dear Khun Yoot,

There are no grammer rules for transcription or transliteration. Grammar is about how to build sentences, not translate individual names, na krap.

So, my dear friend, let's talk about the same thing, na krap. We first need to agree we are not talking about grammar and making up grammar rules, as this is not about building sentences, krap phom. We have been talking mostly about English-Thai transcription (sound translation). Thai people certainly do not agree on transcription rules and methods, na krap. Which rules are you talking about Khun Yoot, please provide them, na krap.

What Thai rules of transcription do you think we should follow? Or do you think that transcription is bad and there should only be transliteration (spelling mapping). They are not the same (transcription / transliteration) and there are many, many methods in Thailand for doing both. Thai Airways in-inflight magazine recently pointed out about 15 different methods, none were in agreement on the same topic we are talking about.

Kindly provide a pointer to the rules you are advocating. Perhaps you can upload the PDF file of the English-Thai transcription rules you are referencing?

Your sincerely, Mr. Farang

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dear Khun Mr. Farang,

It's wrong to say that transcription isn't concerned with grammar.

In Thai grammar text book 'หลักภาษาไทย', there are rules about transcription. And another thing 'how to write' is a part of Thai grammar as well. Thai grammar in my mean not only for building sentences. It's all in the term of 'หลักภาษาไทย'. So we are talking about the same thing na krap.

This is the reason why I said 'Unless you know all the Thai language's rules clearly enough.' There are so many Thai language's rules which are not mentioned in many of English text books of learning Thai. I bet many accounts which are written in English by foreigners whose someone couldn't even speaking Thai clear enough. There might be some errors. I'm not insulting. The same as Thais study English. Text books which are written in Thai are probably not accurate as text books which are written in English by native speaking.

There are rules from RID. http://www.royin.go.th/roman-translate.html

In the past Thai people were not interested in this thing. So we did the transcription as the way we wanted and this was the cause of debating. We transcribed our name as our please. But now it seems even Thais has this problem when we have to do passport. It's ok for people who has their own English transcription names before. They can't force us to change it if we don't want. But if anyone doesn't have it, they have to follow by these rules. So it seems these rules are formal rules which everyone has to follow by them.

I don't have scanner here, so I can't post what the rules are in the Thai text book about transcription and loaned word from English.

For transliteration, there is no exact rules which educated Thais about them. As far as I know there is none of a transliteration system can make the accurate transliteration. All have errors from the exception of Thai language's rules.

Regards, Yoot.

These are some rules in the Thai text book.

การนำคำอังกฤษเข้ามาใช้ในภาษาไทย มีอยู่หลายวิธีด้วยกัน คือ

1. ใช้ตามคำเดิมและออกเสียงตรงกับรูปที่เขียน  คือคำเดิมใช้พยัญชนะและสระอะไรก็ใช้ตามนั้นและออกเสียงตามที่เขียน  เช่น  ลอนดอน,  กรัม, ฟุต, โอโซน ฯลฯ

2. ใช้ตามคำเดิม  แต่ออกเสียงผิดกับรูปที่เขียน  คือใช้สระและพยัญชนะตามคำเดิมและออกเสียงตามคำเดิม  แต่ไม่ตรงกับรูปที่เขียนในภาษาไทย เช่น  เมตร  อ่านว่า เม็ด,  ดอกเตอร์ อ่านว่า ด๊อกเต้อ  ฯลฯ

3. เปลี่ยนคำและเสียงให้ผิดไปจากเดิม เช่น  พาวนฺดฺ  เป็น ปอนด์  ฯลฯ

4. เติมไม้ทัณตฆาตที่พยัญชนะตัวสุดท้ายของคำ เพื่อบังคับไม่ให้ออกเสียง เช่น  ไมลฺ  เป็น ไมล์  ฯลฯ

5. ตัดตัวตามที่เป็นพยัญชนะซ้ำกับตัวสะกดออกตามหลักการเขียนอักษร เช่น  ฟุตบอลลฺ เป็นฟุตบอล

6. เติมไม้ทัณฑฆาตลงที่พยัญชนะซึ่งอยู่ในระหว่างคำ เช่น  ชอลฺก  เป็น ชอล์ก

7. เติมไม้วรรณยุกต์และไม้ไต่คู้ลงไปอย่างคำไทยเพื่อให้ออกเสียงชัดขึ้น เช่น  ก๊าซ  เชิ้ต ฯลฯ

.

.

.

ตามข้อสังเกตนี้ ขอให้ผู้ศึกษาใฝ่ใจใช้แต่ภาษาไทยที่ถูกต้อง มิฉะนั้นภาษาไทยจะกลายเป็นภาษาทาส หรืออย่างน้อยก็เป็นภาษาพันทาง  ซึ่งนับวันแต่รสจะกร่อยลงไปทุกที

Hope this help.

[Mr. Farang]

Dear Khun Mr. Farang,

It's wrong to say that transcription isn't concerned with grammar. 

In Thai grammar text book 'หลักภาษาไทย', there are rules about transcription.  And another thing 'how to write' is a part of Thai grammar as well.  Thai grammar in my mean not only for building sentences.  It's all in the term of  'หลักภาษาไทย'.  So we are talking about the same thing na krap.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dear Khun Yoot,

Yes, you are right, I was thinking about grammar in the formal, more narrow context as in 1.1 below. I checked after reading your kind reply and see that 1.2 and 2.1 could be viewed as word transcription and transliteration. Also, the meaning of "grammar" can be much broader... for example, 5.1 is very, very broad.

Thank you pointing out a broader use of "grammar"...... Much appreciated, krap pom! Your contributions are very much appreciated and very helpful.

gram·mar    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (grmr)

n.

  1.

        1. The study of how words and their component parts combine to form sentences.

        2. The study of structural relationships in language or in a language, sometimes including pronunciation, meaning, and linguistic history.

  2.

        1. The system of inflections, syntax, and word formation of a language.

        2. The system of rules implicit in a language, viewed as a mechanism for generating all sentences possible in that language.

  3.

        1. A normative or prescriptive set of rules setting forth the current standard of usage for pedagogical or reference purposes.

        2. Writing or speech judged with regard to such a set of rules.

  4. A book containing the morphologic, syntactic, and semantic rules for a specific language.

  5.

        1. The basic principles of an area of knowledge: the grammar of music.

        2. A book dealing with such principles.

Khun Yoot,

Thank you again for providing a broader context on the use of the term "grammar"..... I never have used the term in this wider context, even as a native English speaker, but will do so in the future. You have not only helped me in Thai language, but also in my mother language as well!! Thank you!

Yours sincerely,

Mr. Farang

Edited September 19, 2005 by Mr. Farang

[RDN]

You guys!!