Calling Kids "Farang"

[SteeleJoe]

Why reduce Robert to "the foreign guy"?

Why does "the foreign guy" constitute a reduction?

And if it is a reduction, surely the reducer deserves the pity of the reducee.

On another note, do any of you guys know about the way in which we are sometimes referred to as "it"? My Thai isn't very good, but I think the word they use is "maung". Is that right?

My son's mother nearly had a fit a few years back on learning that the old lady in our local convenience store habitually referred to me as "it".

Why does "the foreign guy" constitute a reduction?

If I was standing near a Thai person and an Fal..errr..I mean Foriegn person asked me who it was, I'd say his name if I knew it. If I didn't I'd politely gesture and say, "My neighbor" or "that guy" But I wouldn't say "the Thai" It's a reduction because rather than identify him by name or just as human, you gratuitusly refer to him but nationality or ethnicity.

I can't imagine being in The States or Europe in the situation described and and saying "The Hungarian/the African/the Mexican/the Pole"...and I'm certain the average individual would find it odd and inappropriate (and generally the sort of people who are my friends would find it somewhat offensive).

And if it is a reduction, surely the reducer deserves the pity of the reducee.

Not surely to me at all.

On another note, do any of you guys know about the way in which we are sometimes referred to as "it"? My Thai isn't very good, but I think the word they use is "maung". Is that right?

My son's mother nearly had a fit a few years back on learning that the old lady in our local convenience store habitually referred to me as "it".

I wouldn't transliterate it that way, if you are using the word I think you mean (the Thai word for it). I have only ever heard that by the least courteous and, frankly, "lowest class" people (in the idiomatic sense of the phrase rather than a socio-economic description). And never in front of a foreigner whom they knew could speak Thai.

It's not as bad as "It" is in English, in my opinion -- they even sometimes refer to each other or their children in a joking fashion with the same word -- but it bugs me almost as much as the English equivalent would and I know it's not polite by any standard.

[andrewbkk]

On another note, do any of you guys know about the way in which we are sometimes referred to as "it"? My Thai isn't very good, but I think the word they use is "maung". Is that right? My son's mother nearly had a fit a few years back on learning that the old lady in our local convenience store habitually referred to me as "it".

I wouldn't transliterate it that way, if you are using the word I think you mean (the Thai word for it). I have only ever heard that by the least courteous and, frankly, "lowest class" people (in the idiomatic sense of the phrase rather than a socio-economic description). And never in front of a foreigner whom they knew could speak Thai.

It's not as bad as "It" is in English, in my opinion -- they even sometimes refer to each other or their children in a joking fashion with the same word -- but it bugs me almost as much as the English equivalent would and I know it's not polite by any standard.

Hey dude -- thanks for that. No, it's most definitely not polite. It's appalling.

Imagine...........................

My son is sleeping now. It will probably wake up early tomorrow. It may or not eat breakfast. After that, it will probably go out with its friends and play songkran. It loves having fun with water.

Isn't that awful!!!

[bifftastic]

I think the word 'it' you're referring to is 'mun' or 'man' and it's true it an be used offensively, however, it can also be used amongst close friends/family to refer to each other, so a direct translation to 'it' isn't really accurate.

If someone you don't know is referring to you like that then yes, it's rude, but it isn't always rude. There's not one hard and fast rule that it's a 'bad word' to call someone.

There's another word 'meung' which can be used instead of other words for 'you' and that is quite derogatory, I believe, but again, not always.

There are so many levels of intricacy in the Thai language that it's not only the tones and vowel lengths that can confuse but all these different levels of appropriateness as well!

'ai' is another one, meant to be really bad 'don't ever call someone 'ai....anything' i was told, the same person then referred to their own child affectionately using the same term!

[SteeleJoe]

I think the word 'it' you're referring to is 'mun' or 'man' and it's true it an be used offensively, however, it can also be used amongst close friends/family to refer to each other, so a direct translation to 'it' isn't really accurate.

If someone you don't know is referring to you like that then yes, it's rude, but it isn't always rude. There's not one hard and fast rule that it's a 'bad word' to call someone.

There's another word 'meung' which can be used instead of other words for 'you' and that is quite derogatory, I believe, but again, not always.

There are so many levels of intricacy in the Thai language that it's not only the tones and vowel lengths that can confuse but all these different levels of appropriateness as well!

'ai' is another one, meant to be really bad 'don't ever call someone 'ai....anything' i was told, the same person then referred to their own child affectionately using the same term!

100% spot on.

(I wasn't sure if he was referring to "'meung" or mun" either but I figured from his description he meant the latter.) "Ku"(I/me), "Mung" (you) and "Mun" are all pronouns colloquially used and as you say, while not polite language not necessarily at all insulting. Oddly enough a couple hundred years ago they were polite. And "ai" -- for males, "ee" for females -- is a prefect example: in the wrong context terribly rude but in the right one , a display of warm familiarity. But I personally made sure I never got in the habit of using any of those words for people and "mun" does sound jarring to me even though I know full well that it's not at all always meant rudely.)

I would say this is off-topic but in fact it isn't: generally, I don't think one can have much of a clear insight into Thai culture without a strong understanding of the language, and I don't think one can fully grasp the language without a fairly strong grasp of the culture. And the "Farang" thing is cultural and linguistic: my bet is that most of the time people who object to use of the word under any circumstances don't quite get either -- and are predisposed to assume the worst about Thais, Thailand, and/or whatever they don't quite get.

Relax. Some Thais may have some bias against foreigners of European descent (isn't easier to just say Farang?) but mostly it depends on how you act as to whether they like you or not -- just because they refer to you as a "Farang" doesn't necessarily indicate one way or another.

[andrewbkk]

There's another word 'meung' which can be used instead of other words for 'you' and that is quite derogatory, I believe, but again, not always.

That's definitely the word I meant. I spelled it in my earlier post as "maung".

My son's mother got quite angry when she learned I was being addresses this way, but she was too embarrassed to explain what the word meant.

As for being called a farang, that's never bothered me. And I'm also quite happy to tell people that my son looks like a "proper little farang boy".

[bifftastic]

There's another word 'meung' which can be used instead of other words for 'you' and that is quite derogatory, I believe, but again, not always.

That's definitely the word I meant. I spelled it in my earlier post as "maung".

My son's mother got quite angry when she learned I was being addresses this way, but she was too embarrassed to explain what the word meant.

As for being called a farang, that's never bothered me. And I'm also quite happy to tell people that my son looks like a "proper little farang boy".

Yes, I can understand why she would be angry.

Say for instance someone was having a rant about how they were being treated by someone else, they might use the word 'meung' as in. you always treat me bad, you always do this, that or the other, I've had enough of you' It would show a lack of respect for whoever it was referring to.

Not nice, and I doubt it was 'friendly banter' either!

[ESB7]

Well it was only 40 years ago in the UK blacks were called 'darkies and indians caleld 'pakis', and as for the US they still pretty much call blacks 'niggers'...so I guess that in another 30 or 40 years us 'farangs' in Thailand can expect there to be a law against using the word farang or farang dam

[SteeleJoe]

Well it was only 40 years ago in the UK blacks were called 'darkies and indians caleld 'pakis', and as for the US they still pretty much call blacks 'niggers'...so I guess that in another 30 or 40 years us 'farangs' in Thailand can expect there to be a law against using the word farang or farang dam

I'll be the first to call bulls_*t on that.

And the idea that Farang is the same as "n*_ger" is weak, at best.

[SteeleJoe]

DUPLICATE

Edited April 14, 2011 by SteeleJoe

[Groongthep]

Well it was only 40 years ago in the UK blacks were called 'darkies and indians caleld 'pakis', and as for the US they still pretty much call blacks 'niggers'...so I guess that in another 30 or 40 years us 'farangs' in Thailand can expect there to be a law against using the word farang or farang dam

I'll be the first to call bulls_*t on that.

And the idea that Farang is the same as "n*_ger" is weak, at best.

Agreed. timestamp has obviously not spent much time in the US. The N word has long been unacceptable among any group of polite people in the US including working class people. Its use in just about any situation shows extremely low class. And trying to equate the word farang with “ni99er” is also absurd. The former is at worst mildly derogatory and mostly used simply as a neutral descriptive term for someone of European lineage. The other word however, is used only when it is intended to be insulting or spiteful.

Edited April 14, 2011 by Groongthep

[notbritish]

I think the idea that 'farang' comes from the fact that Thai people were copying what the French called themselves ie. Francais becoming farangset, has an obvious flaw.

Vowels in French are not pronounced the same as they are in English. The 'an' in Francais is pronounced with what can be described in English terms as a kind of rounded 'oh' sound which would, if the story were true, result in the Thai version being 'falohng' which it definitely isn't.

I think the story about the French being the first foreigners to come to Thailand and speak with 'the natives' and before that, they had no concept of 'whitey' and therefore no word to describe them/us is unlikely to be true.

The similarities to other languages words for white foreigners would seem to support that.

Apologies for straying off topic

hmm no.

An is AN. could sound as "aen" with very little emphasis on the N but it certaintely does not sound anywhere close to anything with "o" in it

Farangset's pronounciation is very close to Francais and farang as well.

People using Falong, are simply weirdos whom might be looking for attention by mispronouncing words on purpose. Even bargirls dont use 'falong'

Edited April 14, 2011 by notbritish

[473geo]

When someone calls me a farang, i ask myself- 'can i deal with that and shrug it off or am i a big girls blouse and therefore have a hissy fit about it'.

I bet half the posters whining about being called a 'farang' are also the same who complain about the 'PC police' and how the 'whole PC thing in the west is out of control' and 'thank god in thailand we dont have to worry about that nonsense'

At least this is what i have found.

I agree stay in Thailand and get your blood pressure up every day when you hear Farang......could well lead to an early death and put you out of your misery.........

The most important people to me in Thailand call me Papa and darling, I really cannot be fussed about how I am addressed by anybody else

[bifftastic]

I think the idea that 'farang' comes from the fact that Thai people were copying what the French called themselves ie. Francais becoming farangset, has an obvious flaw.

Vowels in French are not pronounced the same as they are in English. The 'an' in Francais is pronounced with what can be described in English terms as a kind of rounded 'oh' sound which would, if the story were true, result in the Thai version being 'falohng' which it definitely isn't.

I think the story about the French being the first foreigners to come to Thailand and speak with 'the natives' and before that, they had no concept of 'whitey' and therefore no word to describe them/us is unlikely to be true.

The similarities to other languages words for white foreigners would seem to support that.

Apologies for straying off topic

hmm no.

An is AN. could sound as "aen" with very little emphasis on the N but it certaintely does not sound anywhere close to anything with "o" in it

Farangset's pronounciation is very close to Francais and farang as well.

People using Falong, are simply weirdos whom might be looking for attention by mispronouncing words on purpose. Even bargirls dont use 'falong'

I wasn't saying people use 'falong' that was my point.

'an' is 'an'? In European languages written vowels are pronounced differently. French people don't pronounce them the same, so, when a French person say the word 'Francais' it sounds absolutely nothing like the second 'a' sound in 'farang'

http://french.about.com/od/pronunciation/a/an.htm

on this page, there are links where you can hear French 'a' sounds

Francais, pronounced by a French person, is nothing like Farangset or farang

[notbritish]

I think the idea that 'farang' comes from the fact that Thai people were copying what the French called themselves ie. Francais becoming farangset, has an obvious flaw.

Vowels in French are not pronounced the same as they are in English. The 'an' in Francais is pronounced with what can be described in English terms as a kind of rounded 'oh' sound which would, if the story were true, result in the Thai version being 'falohng' which it definitely isn't.

I think the story about the French being the first foreigners to come to Thailand and speak with 'the natives' and before that, they had no concept of 'whitey' and therefore no word to describe them/us is unlikely to be true.

The similarities to other languages words for white foreigners would seem to support that.

Apologies for straying off topic

hmm no.

An is AN. could sound as "aen" with very little emphasis on the N but it certaintely does not sound anywhere close to anything with "o" in it

Farangset's pronounciation is very close to Francais and farang as well.

People using Falong, are simply weirdos whom might be looking for attention by mispronouncing words on purpose. Even bargirls dont use 'falong'

I wasn't saying people use 'falong' that was my point.

'an' is 'an'? In European languages written vowels are pronounced differently. French people don't pronounce them the same, so, when a French person say the word 'Francais' it sounds absolutely nothing like the second 'a' sound in 'farang'

http://french.about....iation/a/an.htm

on this page, there are links where you can hear French 'a' sounds

Francais, pronounced by a French person, is nothing like Farangset or farang

As someone who comes from a french country and has french as his mother tongue, i have never heard anyone pronouncing it far off from the way farang is pronounced.

[h90]

A daughter of a friend is always called Adum. Actually she looks like she is half African, very black and kinky hair, but she isn't.

While I am not a political correct person and don't care what is acceptable in USA, I really think it is not right to make children problems by calling them with some strange names they don't understand.

[bifftastic]

I think the idea that 'farang' comes from the fact that Thai people were copying what the French called themselves ie. Francais becoming farangset, has an obvious flaw.

Vowels in French are not pronounced the same as they are in English. The 'an' in Francais is pronounced with what can be described in English terms as a kind of rounded 'oh' sound which would, if the story were true, result in the Thai version being 'falohng' which it definitely isn't.

I think the story about the French being the first foreigners to come to Thailand and speak with 'the natives' and before that, they had no concept of 'whitey' and therefore no word to describe them/us is unlikely to be true.

The similarities to other languages words for white foreigners would seem to support that.

Apologies for straying off topic

hmm no.

An is AN. could sound as "aen" with very little emphasis on the N but it certaintely does not sound anywhere close to anything with "o" in it

Farangset's pronounciation is very close to Francais and farang as well.

People using Falong, are simply weirdos whom might be looking for attention by mispronouncing words on purpose. Even bargirls dont use 'falong'

I wasn't saying people use 'falong' that was my point.

'an' is 'an'? In European languages written vowels are pronounced differently. French people don't pronounce them the same, so, when a French person say the word 'Francais' it sounds absolutely nothing like the second 'a' sound in 'farang'

http://french.about....iation/a/an.htm

on this page, there are links where you can hear French 'a' sounds

Francais, pronounced by a French person, is nothing like Farangset or farang

As someone who comes from a french country and has french as his mother tongue, i have never heard anyone pronouncing it far off from the way farang is pronounced.

Fair enough. All I can say is, that having spent a lot of time in France, I have heard it pronounced the way I described it. I guess accents are different all over the world

[jazzbo]

Etymology of the word 'farang' aside, the OP's query was how to deal with children who are 'confused' and maybe at times upset about having parents of 2 different races ... Having first noticed this phenomenon about 25 years ago when traveling to China and being a bit haunted by some of those children's faces I would say the following:

I would tell the child that the most important thing is having a loving parent or parents ... The fact that you are of mixed race parentage is nothing of your doing but was a choice made by me and your Mother ... when you get upset at other persons who maybe stare at you and call you names do not get upset at them: Get upset at me and your Mother --

It was our choice; not yours but you are the one who will have that burden to deal with persons who just do not understand.

[SteeleJoe]

Etymology of the word 'farang' aside, the OP's query was how to deal with children who are 'confused' and maybe at times upset about having parents of 2 different races ... Having first noticed this phenomenon about 25 years ago when traveling to China and being a bit haunted by some of those children's faces I would say the following:

I would tell the child that the most important thing is having a loving parent or parents ... The fact that you are of mixed race parentage is nothing of your doing but was a choice made by me and your Mother ... when you get upset at other persons who maybe stare at you and call you names do not get upset at them: Get upset at me and your Mother --

It was our choice; not yours but you are the one who will have that burden to deal with persons who just do not understand.

I'm not having a go at you, I seriously don't know - are you serious? If so...

The idea of Thai/Caucasian kids getting negative reactions in Thailand -- well, no offense but where have you been?! True it's now better to be Korean or Japanese but being a Luek Krung of the Farang variety was THE hottest thing there was up until a couple years ago and it's still the case that they are at the top of the modelling and acting world because of their look (and sometimes English skills and even, I suspect, an unconscious liking for the perceived "International/modern" sophistication).

In the past (say the 70's And even early 80s)? While there was a liking for the looks (and some famous actors were among them but often they were of Thai/Indian parentage), there was definitely a social stigma (based less on racism or xenophobia than assumptions -- often correct -- about the nature of the parents union). Now? Well, anyone who has biracial children of the Farang variety will tell you about the reactions they get -- and suffice it to say I'd be surprised if they weren't universally positive (or at worst, indifferent). While there are still some folks who may look askance at the Farang Thai couple (especially under certain circumstances) that isn't so common now and I don't expect, for a variety of reasons, that the social stigma attached to being a product of such a couple that was almost universal back in the day will ever be as pervasive as then, or anywhere near it. Rather I would expect it to diminish even further if it even still exists.

[jazzbo]

have a go at me if you like ... Post #1 My kids who hold duel citizenship of American and Thai nationalities are confused by strangers calling them farang. not every LukK is a soap opera star or musician ... and I still see those looks on many of the the kids faces even if you don't.

Edited April 16, 2011 by jazzbo

[SteeleJoe]

have a go at me if you like ... Post #1 My kids who hold duel citizenship of American and Thai nationalities are confused by strangers calling them farang. not every LukK is a soap opera star or musician ... and I still see those looks on many of the the kids faces even if you don't.

1) I don't like. I told you that wasn't what I was doing.

2) He claims his kids are "confused by strangers calling them farang" (which, while I'm not calling him a liar, i frankly have some doubt about -- I am inclined to think HE"S the one with the issue with the word and he's projecting -- or just using this story to serve his point about use of the word): this is quite different from being upset or confused about being of mixed parentage. I don';t doubt that kids would sometimes find it unpleasant to be singled out -- but short kids or tall kids or red haired kids (for example) get that sort of thing too. I don't think it's all that traumatic.

3) I don't think China of 25 years ago is at all analogous.

4) Really, not every Luk Krueng is a soap opera star or musician? Gee, I thought they were.

I actually referenced models - which is significant because of the even greater importance of appearance -- but the reason I mentioned them (which frankly I thought obvious) wasn't to suggest that because Luek Krung will all be celebrities, they won't have any social difficulties related to their parentage; it was to illustrate that there is little or no apparent social stigma or they wouldn't be such hot commodities -- and by the way the I know both anecdotally and from 1st person observation that the average Luek Krung gets plenty of positive feedback.

5) Which look do you see on their face? I'm genuinely curious.

I may have this all wrong. Or maybe I've overstated some of it. I don't think so but while I base this on over 2 decades of watching and working at learning about Thai culture and society (and there have been plenty of Thais who written about this as well and who apparently agree with me), I am definitely typing off the cuff...

[SantiSuk]

I am referred to as farang by my wife's family and our 6 year old son is known to all and sundry as farang noi.

I can't say it bothers me and my son loves it because it distinguishes him from his contemporaries.

I have been called farang in a non-friendly manner on occasions but usual by drunks at local parties so that doesn't bother me either.

Why be so sensitive it's so engrained in Thais that there is sweet FA you can do about it.

Japan and Libya now these are things to worry about.

Agree entirely.

Even though my 16 month old daughter gets referred to as farang or farang noi sometimes it is nearly always by her falang name of Jennifer.

I'm actually more concerned that she doesn't grow up with a superiority complex as she seems to be such a celebrity in the village and around. People come running up in delight when they spot her in the market. Issaan people in general seem to be fascinated by a white skinned baby/youngster and the air is always full of calls of 'narak'.

If Thais I don't know point or nudge each other and say farang about me in public I tend to point or nudge back and say 'khon Thai' with a big smile. This embarasses most of them as I think they do not expect a foreigner to understand he is being referred to as foreigner.

If someone who knows you well and you know well enough to know their name calls you farang or refers to you as farang in public then I think you have some cause to be a bit put-off. However most of the time I find it is people who do not know me or whose name I cannot recall either. In that case I understand that its just easier for them. Why should they remember my name, which is difficult for a Thai, when I don't remember theirs. Would you expect them to get precious if you referred to them as 'that Thai guy' to one of your expat mates? Farang can equally mean 'that western white guy' - not racial or xenophobic in my view - if they know your nationality they will often talk about that German guy or that Sweden guy; it's just an identifier.

[SteeleJoe]

Santi_Suk's post -- which I agree with entirely (including the concern about a superiority complex --and some LK kids do get one), made me realize that when I wrote this:

I don't doubt that kids would sometimes find it unpleasant to be singled out -- but short kids or tall kids or red haired kids (for example) get that sort of thing too. I don't think it's all that traumatic.

I should have added:

And those short/tall/red haired kids don't get the far more common and often over the top loads of praise and positive attention to their difference.

[notbritish]

I am referred to as farang by my wife's family and our 6 year old son is known to all and sundry as farang noi.

I can't say it bothers me and my son loves it because it distinguishes him from his contemporaries.

I have been called farang in a non-friendly manner on occasions but usual by drunks at local parties so that doesn't bother me either.

Why be so sensitive it's so engrained in Thais that there is sweet FA you can do about it.

Japan and Libya now these are things to worry about.

Agree entirely.

Even though my 16 month old daughter gets referred to as farang or farang noi sometimes it is nearly always by her falang name of Jennifer.

I'm actually more concerned that she doesn't grow up with a superiority complex as she seems to be such a celebrity in the village and around. People come running up in delight when they spot her in the market. Issaan people in general seem to be fascinated by a white skinned baby/youngster and the air is always full of calls of 'narak'.

If Thais I don't know point or nudge each other and say farang about me in public I tend to point or nudge back and say 'khon Thai' with a big smile. This embarasses most of them as I think they do not expect a foreigner to understand he is being referred to as foreigner.

If someone who knows you well and you know well enough to know their name calls you farang or refers to you as farang in public then I think you have some cause to be a bit put-off. However most of the time I find it is people who do not know me or whose name I cannot recall either. In that case I understand that its just easier for them. Why should they remember my name, which is difficult for a Thai, when I don't remember theirs. Would you expect them to get precious if you referred to them as 'that Thai guy' to one of your expat mates? Farang can equally mean 'that western white guy' - not racial or xenophobic in my view - if they know your nationality they will often talk about that German guy or that Sweden guy; it's just an identifier.

Go through a time machine

Go back to school.

Walk to the sub-teacher and explain to him that the black kid is throwing papers at you

Are you really going to explain who is doing this by numbering the X/Y's of the classroom and making a geographical card for the teacher? or by giving 10 facial features? Nah you'll say he's the black kid there.

Its perfectly fine and those who aren't fine with this are crazy and will be annoyed by everything in life forever.

Edited April 16, 2011 by notbritish

[SteeleJoe]

I am referred to as farang by my wife's family and our 6 year old son is known to all and sundry as farang noi.

I can't say it bothers me and my son loves it because it distinguishes him from his contemporaries.

I have been called farang in a non-friendly manner on occasions but usual by drunks at local parties so that doesn't bother me either.

Why be so sensitive it's so engrained in Thais that there is sweet FA you can do about it.

Japan and Libya now these are things to worry about.

Agree entirely.

Even though my 16 month old daughter gets referred to as farang or farang noi sometimes it is nearly always by her falang name of Jennifer.

I'm actually more concerned that she doesn't grow up with a superiority complex as she seems to be such a celebrity in the village and around. People come running up in delight when they spot her in the market. Issaan people in general seem to be fascinated by a white skinned baby/youngster and the air is always full of calls of 'narak'.

If Thais I don't know point or nudge each other and say farang about me in public I tend to point or nudge back and say 'khon Thai' with a big smile. This embarasses most of them as I think they do not expect a foreigner to understand he is being referred to as foreigner.

If someone who knows you well and you know well enough to know their name calls you farang or refers to you as farang in public then I think you have some cause to be a bit put-off. However most of the time I find it is people who do not know me or whose name I cannot recall either. In that case I understand that its just easier for them. Why should they remember my name, which is difficult for a Thai, when I don't remember theirs. Would you expect them to get precious if you referred to them as 'that Thai guy' to one of your expat mates? Farang can equally mean 'that western white guy' - not racial or xenophobic in my view - if they know your nationality they will often talk about that German guy or that Sweden guy; it's just an identifier.

Go through a time machine

Go back to school.

Walk to the sub-teacher and explain to him that the black kid is throwing papers at you

Are you really going to explain who is doing this by numbering the X/Y's of the classroom and making a geographical card for the teacher? or by giving 10 facial features? Nah you'll say he's the black kid there.

Its perfectly fine and those who aren't fine with this are crazy and will be annoyed by everything in life forever.

I get your point and I pretty much agree however I'd point out that because of some obvious reasons (little things ike a couple centuries of horrifically inhumane slavery, wholesale destruction of people's links to and knowldege of their native culture, decades of isntitutional and societal eqaulity o a massive and often brutal scale and so on...), such things would be potentially more problematic in the US.

But all of that is absent here. Thailand in fact has a history of being, relative to many of its Asian neighbors , far less inclined to oppress their minorities and/or immigrants (that's NOT to say they haven't done their share -- I stress the word "relative"); and certainly they have little or no history of being overtly anti-Western. Rather the opposite.

No Farang has ever been hung from a tree here for the crime of being of European descent. I've not seen any signs on drinking fountains saying "Falang"...so calling someone a Farang is even less loaded than referring to an African American as "Black" -- and not anything whatsoever like n*_ger.

Edited April 16, 2011 by SteeleJoe

[notbritish]

I am referred to as farang by my wife's family and our 6 year old son is known to all and sundry as farang noi.

I can't say it bothers me and my son loves it because it distinguishes him from his contemporaries.

I have been called farang in a non-friendly manner on occasions but usual by drunks at local parties so that doesn't bother me either.

Why be so sensitive it's so engrained in Thais that there is sweet FA you can do about it.

Japan and Libya now these are things to worry about.

Agree entirely.

Even though my 16 month old daughter gets referred to as farang or farang noi sometimes it is nearly always by her falang name of Jennifer.

I'm actually more concerned that she doesn't grow up with a superiority complex as she seems to be such a celebrity in the village and around. People come running up in delight when they spot her in the market. Issaan people in general seem to be fascinated by a white skinned baby/youngster and the air is always full of calls of 'narak'.

If Thais I don't know point or nudge each other and say farang about me in public I tend to point or nudge back and say 'khon Thai' with a big smile. This embarasses most of them as I think they do not expect a foreigner to understand he is being referred to as foreigner.

If someone who knows you well and you know well enough to know their name calls you farang or refers to you as farang in public then I think you have some cause to be a bit put-off. However most of the time I find it is people who do not know me or whose name I cannot recall either. In that case I understand that its just easier for them. Why should they remember my name, which is difficult for a Thai, when I don't remember theirs. Would you expect them to get precious if you referred to them as 'that Thai guy' to one of your expat mates? Farang can equally mean 'that western white guy' - not racial or xenophobic in my view - if they know your nationality they will often talk about that German guy or that Sweden guy; it's just an identifier.

Go through a time machine

Go back to school.

Walk to the sub-teacher and explain to him that the black kid is throwing papers at you

Are you really going to explain who is doing this by numbering the X/Y's of the classroom and making a geographical card for the teacher? or by giving 10 facial features? Nah you'll say he's the black kid there.

Its perfectly fine and those who aren't fine with this are crazy and will be annoyed by everything in life forever.

I get your point and I pretty much agree however I'd point out that because of some obvious reasons (little things ike a couple centuries of horrifically inhumane slavery, wholesale destruction of people's links to and knowldege of their native culture, decades of isntitutional and societal eqaulity o a massive and often brutal scale and so on...), such things would be potentially more problematic in the US.

But all of that is absent here. Thailand in fact has a history of being, relative to many of its Asian neighbors , far less inclined to oppress their minorities and/or immigrants (that's NOT to say they haven't done their share -- I stress the word "relative"); and certainly they have little or no history of being overtly anti-Western. Rather the opposite.

i completely disagree with the 'historic' part of it in the USA.

Slavery is long gone there, anyone getting offended at anything regarding slavery is just them being total douchebags. It never happened to you, nor did it happen to your mother, so how would this affect you?

We could relate to that us white folks by talking about some sort of small unknown battle in north africa 50 000 years ago where a tribe of white people were slaughtered by Africans. What about enlsavements in egypt? etc etc etc.

Words are just words, racists can be racist with just the tone of their voices, i can use the N word without sounding racist or meaning any harm.

A huge part of humanity has just been bored senseless for thousands of years, whiners about racist words are mostly just bored or were raised extremely wrong. Few cases might have been victim of massive racism, but i doubt its the case since most racists would get their ass beaten down in any black area throughout his whole life.

Some thais will use farang as a degratory term, some wont.

if it was infact a racist remark, just remember that you're more educated, have a better income and a much better life than them. Move on and dont get your panties in a bunch. Teach your children not to get their panty in a bunch for such ridicule situation. Let's focus on rape, hunger, lack of education etc etc

Edited April 16, 2011 by notbritish

[SteeleJoe]

i completely disagree with the 'historic' part of it in the USA.

Slavery is long gone there, anyone getting offended at anything regarding slavery is just them being total douchebags. It never happened to you, nor did it happen to your mother, so how would this affect you?

We could relate to that us white folks by talking about some sort of small unknown battle in north africa 50 000 years ago where a tribe of white people were slaughtered by Africans. What about enlsavements in egypt? etc etc etc.

Words are just words, racists can be racist with just the tone of their voices, i can use the N word without sounding racist or meaning any harm.

A huge part of humanity has just been bored senseless for thousands of years, whiners about racist words are mostly just bored or were raised extremely wrong.

It occurred to me that your attitude might be what it apparently is. And I completely disagree with you.

I have a great reluctance to get into this as 1) I think it has the potential to get extremely contentions and perhaps even unpleasant 2) It would take a lot of work to properly examine and 3) it's way off topic. But I'll say this:

Your dismissal of the importance of history is frankly, absurd. As is your comparison of the history of slavery, racism/segregation/racial inequality etc to "some sort of small unknown battle in north africa 50 000 years ago".

And this is, with all due respect, really dumb:

It never happened to you, nor did it happen to your mother, so how would this affect you?

I'm sure you aren't as unintelligent as you'd have to be to really think that the above was tenable.or to be genuiinely unaware of how and why the history matters.

The Egyptians?! What would they have to do with it? I'm talking about the reasons why racial relations in the USA are far more sensitive than they would be here and why -- rightly or wrongly -- it would be potentially slightly uncomfortable to single out someone by the fact that they were black. WOuld I be Ok with saying "That Black guy" in most contexts? yes. And I believe most African Americans/Black people would be too. But it's not at all the same social context as exist here with us.

Sorry but this makes zero sense to me:

Few cases might have been victim of massive racism, but I doubt its the case since most racists would get their ass beaten down in any black area throughout his whole life.

Most racists 1) Aren't advertising it and 2) don't spend time in "Black areas".

Finally:

i can use the N word without sounding racist or meaning any harm.

No, actually -- you can not.

[SteeleJoe]

You know, I think it intellectually dishonest and cowardly when a poster makes a rebuttal and then calls for the issue to be dropped (I see that lot and one poster in particular comes to mind), so I'm not going to do that.

But I wish I had not gotten into a discussion of the legacy -- or lack thereof -- of slavery and inhumanity towards those who suffered under it and their descendants. This is not the place and moreover it would be hard for me to be dispassionate with anyone whose position was diametrically opposed to my own; it is to me so obviously a matter of objective truth and morality.

Should we live the rest of our lives making excuses or allowances for everything a Black person ever says or does (including agreeing with every accusation of racism or whatever) because of our history? Absolutely not. But to diminish what happened and what affect it had on our culture and society is ridiculous and I can't help but wonder at the mentality of anyone who would do such.

Wow. That's a lot to add from a guy who started writing this because he wished he hadn't gotten into a discussion of it...

[Firelily]

I thought there was a completely different issue here as well.

I am not a parent, but a couple of years ago I knew a young boy who was half Thai, half white American. By some freak genetic accident, he ended up looking completely white, not a look kreung. He has never lived anywhere else, he grew up Thai, cannot even speak English like a native speaker. He is Thai, what else would he be? Yet, because of his looks, he gets all those whispers behind his back that we get, at the market, playground etc, always treated as a tourist, being talked to in English, and people questioning his Thainess even when they figure out his mother is Thai and he is Thai. What is this going to do to his identity in the long run, who knows.

I may have missed a point here - for me the problem / issue in the OP was that no, farang is not a correct label, because the children are actually Thai, or it is a very significant part of their identity. (Can a farang ever be Thai?)

I don't mind being called farang, I am one, but if I had a child with a Thai husband, my kid would be Thai as well as farang, not just a plain farang, and I would be upset if people identified them as non-Thai. (Are Thai and farang mutually exclusive labels, then?)

[SteeleJoe]

I thought there was a completely different issue here as well.

I am not a parent, but a couple of years ago I knew a young boy who was half Thai, half white American. By some freak genetic accident, he ended up looking completely white, not a look kreung. He has never lived anywhere else, he grew up Thai, cannot even speak English like a native speaker. He is Thai, what else would he be? Yet, because of his looks, he gets all those whispers behind his back that we get, at the market, playground etc, always treated as a tourist, being talked to in English, and people questioning his Thainess even when they figure out his mother is Thai and he is Thai. What is this going to do to his identity in the long run, who knows.

I may have missed a point here - for me the problem / issue in the OP was that no, farang is not a correct label, because the children are actually Thai, or it is a very significant part of their identity. (Can a farang ever be Thai?)

I don't mind being called farang, I am one, but if I had a child with a Thai husband, my kid would be Thai as well as farang, not just a plain farang, and I would be upset if people identified them as non-Thai. (Are Thai and farang mutually exclusive labels, then?)

Excellent post. Amd perhaps you are right as the point of the OP -- and even if you aren't, it's da_n good point nonetheless.

(Mind you then we get into a long and complex discussion of "Thainess" -- something Thai academics et all have gone over and continue to go over ad nauseum...very political and complicated).

[jazzbo]

Belated reply to Post # 80 5) Which look do you see on their face? I'm genuinely curious... The look is the simple Why-do-all-those-people-stare-at-me?' look.