Calling Kids "Farang"

[sinbin]

Forget the 'farang' thing for a moment. What about the stigma that is attached to a 50-50 child ? The fact is, that most rural Thais believe a 50-50 child is the result of a relationship between a western man and a Thai bar-girl. A bar-girl doesn't hold too much respect in Thai society so therefore she's looked down upon. And a western man who marries a bar-girl isn't thought of as much better either. Even if the child isn't born to a bar-girl it will automatically be assumed as so. That gets up my nose more than my kids being called 'farang'.

A thing that gets my missus mad is the fact she's been asked 2-3 times if she's the nanny.

Edited April 22, 2011 by sinbin

[Caliguy]

Hmm not all Thai's use the word "Farang" to describe us as some see it as an insult as well. In my Thai family I am referred to whatever position I would be in for someone in a western family. Brother, Uncle, or Cousin. I have NEVER heard them utter the word "Farang" or even "Luk Krung" for my son. Depends on where your Thai family/acquaintances come from I think.

[sinbin]

Caliguy your Thai family must be well educated being as 'farang' is used mainly by the lowest educated people. http://absolutelyban...he-good-farang/

What I can't understand is why nobody seems to be kicking up a fuss as to the name 'Bug Sida' (บักสีดา) which I also hear on a regular basis for westerners.

Edited April 23, 2011 by sinbin

[Firelily]

HM the King referred to foreigners as "farangs" a few years ago during his birthday speech. To me that decided once and for all that the word does not necessarily mean looking down on us (I don't think he looks down on foreigners and even if he did, he would not use a derogatory term in his position).

Also, I think the tones on the word farang make it sound worse than it is. The tone sounds like the frustration that creeps into English when you say something like "you moron!"

[inthepink]

HM the King referred to foreigners as "farangs" a few years ago during his birthday speech. To me that decided once and for all that the word does not necessarily mean looking down on us (I don't think he looks down on foreigners and even if he did, he would not use a derogatory term in his position).

Also, I think the tones on the word farang make it sound worse than it is. The tone sounds like the frustration that creeps into English when you say something like "you moron!"

I think the fact that the King used the word should be noted by those who claim it is only low class or badly educated Thai people who use the word farang. That ridiculous statement is always trotted out by somebody every time this discussion takes place and it is complete rubbish.

Given that in the USA the last racially segregated school was closed a mere 46 years ago, I don't think one can claim that the Thai people are especially backward in their attitudes. Perhaps if they start lynching white foreigners or forcing their children to go to separate schools, we might have something real to complain about.

[sinbin]

I think the fact that the King used the word should be noted by those who claim it is only low class or badly educated Thai people who use the word farang. That ridiculous statement is always trotted out by somebody every time this discussion takes place and it is complete rubbish.

Go to Bangkok, or any large city with a high western population, and see how many times you hear the word "farang', compared to the rural areas. Could you also provide the quote regarding the King using the 'F' word. I believe his last public speach was on his birthday, 2005. I believe he used the word 'foreigner' (ชาวต่างชาติ)

Edited April 23, 2011 by sinbin

[teddy_bare]

It has been very interesting to read your comments. It is apparent that it is a very sensitive subject with people accepting the use of the word, others explaining that is not a negative word, while others like myself are uncomfortable with its usage.

I guess my post was misunderstood. Our family is multicultural and we strive to teach our children that all people are equal and should all be afforded human dignity and respect. It was confusing for my kids to hear adults and children use farang and in some cases derogatory words towards other ethnic groups in Thailand such as Chinese, hill tribes, muslims, etc.,

It is not my intention to debate the merits of using racial stereo typing but to get an understanding from like-minded parents of how they explain this behavior to their children. It can be confusing to them and I want to make sure that they understand that this is wrong behavior.

It does bother me because I know the root of intolerance, bigotry, and the need to feel superior to others is ignorance, fear, and lack of self-confidence. This is what I am telling my children that people use this word because they are ignorant and do not understand and are sometimes not happy people. We also study that there are some people who use nationalism to get elected to power in government. These politicians tend to use religion,fear and hate.

We also use this as a learning tool. We read stories about children experiencing civil rights abuses in the US and discuss why people act this way and how it makes people feel. I am quite amazed that my kids understand and I am even more humbled by their sense of justice for others in the world.

I know that many Thais will take offense and are overtly sensitive to any critical analysis of their culture and country. The people in the West are very critical of their own culture and we are always striving to improve. I do have to say that multi-culturalism is getting stronger in the US and the children being brought up in this new and exciting environment will be so much better off than their parents.

I think your use of this issue as a learning tool could benefit many on this forum.

The amount of ignorance, fear and lack of confidence displayed here equals that found on the streets of Thailand.

[jazzbo]

This is what I am telling my children that people use this word because they are ignorant and do not understand and are sometimes not happy people... You are also teaching your children that when you have a problem, blame someone else.

[inthepink]

I think the fact that the King used the word should be noted by those who claim it is only low class or badly educated Thai people who use the word farang. That ridiculous statement is always trotted out by somebody every time this discussion takes place and it is complete rubbish.

Go to Bangkok, or any large city with a high western population, and see how many times you hear the word "farang', compared to the rural areas. Could you also provide the quote regarding the King using the 'F' word. I believe his last public speach was on his birthday, 2005. I believe he used the word 'foreigner' (ชาวต่างชาติ)

I don't need to "go to Bangkok", I lived there for 6 years. I don't live in a rural area (or not in the sense that you mean), not sure why you would think that I do. The word farang is used by all Thai people that I have come across, from those who left school when they were 11 to those who attended universities in the West after an international schooling in Bangkok.

[Just to clarify, when I say I have heard the word farang used by many different Thai people, I don't mean that they have ever addressed me directly using that word, only that they use it when talking about Westerners in general or referring to a Western person during the course of a conversation, when they don 't know the person in question.]

Re. the use of the word by the king, I can't provide you with a direct quote, I was working on the assumption that the previous poster wasn't lying but ชาวต่างชาติ would be a little too formal for ordinary Thai people to use in everyday conversation.

However, I think you must be wrong regarding the date of his last speech as this article says that he missed his b'day speech in 2008 for the first time, implying that he didn't miss it in 2007.

http://www.guardian....speech-birthday

EDIT: Actually, this article comfirms he gave his usualy b'day speech in 2007: http://www.chinapost.com.tw/news/2007/12/05/133559/Thailand's-king.htm

And this is his speech from 2010:

May I ask what led you to believe that he had not made a speech since 2005?

Edited April 24, 2011 by inthepink

[SteeleJoe]

I remember quite well the King using the word "Farang" -- it stood out to me precisely because of this debate (that I've listened to for a couple decades)

[inthepink]

I remember quite well the King using the word "Farang" -- it stood out to me precisely because of this debate (that I've listened to for a couple decades)

I haven't found a direct quote of him using the word farang but when he says "chaao dtang chaat" in his 2005 speech, he is talking about foreigners in general, not Westerners, so it isn't relevant to this topic at all.

Edited April 24, 2011 by inthepink

[SteeleJoe]

I remember quite well the King using the word "Farang" -- it stood out to me precisely because of this debate (that I've listened to for a couple decades)

I haven't found a direct quote of him using the word farang but when he says "chaao dtang chaat" in his 2005 speech, he is talking about foreigners in general, not Westerners, so it isn't relevant to this topic at all.

I've been fluent in Thai for 28 years so I'm well aware of the meaning of "chaao dang chaat" and how it's different from "Farang". And I also know that what he used was "Farang" -- becasue I mentioned ti to some peole the next day as reinforcement of my v iews on the words lack of inherent perjorative meaning..

I'm not sure why you arew fixating on 2005 but I'm failry sure it was more recent. (Don't know if a text of recent speeches are available or where but I'm on my way out the door and won't belooking for it).

[Schooner]

We need to get over ourselves with this word. I know that it used in many ways, but I don't care because I am not what someone else thinks I am.

One of my friends has trained his wife to say westerner. Good for him but it dosen't stop her from expressing what she wants. It's just a word for gods sake.

[inthepink]

I remember quite well the King using the word "Farang" -- it stood out to me precisely because of this debate (that I've listened to for a couple decades)

I haven't found a direct quote of him using the word farang but when he says "chaao dtang chaat" in his 2005 speech, he is talking about foreigners in general, not Westerners, so it isn't relevant to this topic at all.

I've been fluent in Thai for 28 years so I'm well aware of the meaning of "chaao dang chaat" and how it's different from "Farang". And I also know that what he used was "Farang" -- becasue I mentioned ti to some peole the next day as reinforcement of my v iews on the words lack of inherent perjorative meaning..

I'm not sure why you arew fixating on 2005 but I'm failry sure it was more recent. (Don't know if a text of recent speeches are available or where but I'm on my way out the door and won't belooking for it).

I was basically agreeing with you, and I'm not fixated on the year 2005 - you posted directly after my response to sinbin's post, in which he claimed the King had not spoken in public since 2005 and that his usage of "chaao dtang chaat" in that year's speech somehow proved that he would not use the word farang.

I was simply stating that he used the word in a different context (for sinbad's benefit), but that I had not yet found a direct quote where he used the word farang (which sinbad had requested). I assumed that you had read the previous 2 or 3 posts, obviously I should not have.

Incidentally, there is no such word as perjorative in the English language, but perhaps you haven't been speaking that language fluently for 28 years.

Edited April 24, 2011 by inthepink

[inthepink]

We need to get over ourselves with this word. I know that it used in many ways, but I don't care because I am not what someone else thinks I am.

One of my friends has trained his wife to say westerner. Good for him but it dosen't stop her from expressing what she wants. It's just a word for gods sake.

Trained his wife to say Westerner?!!! What is she, a dog? I think your choice of vocabulary demonstrates far more contempt for your friend's wife than any Thai person's use of the word farang ever could for Westerners in general.

Edited April 24, 2011 by inthepink

[Schooner]

Your right "trained" was a poor choice of words and I apoligize. He has told her that he dosn't like that word and he dosen't want to hear it out of her mouth. She has complied.

My point stands. You can rearrange the furniture all you want but real balance comes from within.

[inthepink]

Your right "trained" was a poor choice of words and I apoligize. He has told her that he dosn't like that word and he dosen't want to hear it out of her mouth. She has complied.

My point stands. You can rearrange the furniture all you want but real balance comes from within.

That's certainly true.

[SteeleJoe]

I remember quite well the King using the word "Farang" -- it stood out to me precisely because of this debate (that I've listened to for a couple decades)

I haven't found a direct quote of him using the word farang but when he says "chaao dtang chaat" in his 2005 speech, he is talking about foreigners in general, not Westerners, so it isn't relevant to this topic at all.

I've been fluent in Thai for 28 years so I'm well aware of the meaning of "chaao dang chaat" and how it's different from "Farang". And I also know that what he used was "Farang" -- becasue I mentioned ti to some peole the next day as reinforcement of my v iews on the words lack of inherent perjorative meaning..

I'm not sure why you arew fixating on 2005 but I'm failry sure it was more recent. (Don't know if a text of recent speeches are available or where but I'm on my way out the door and won't belooking for it).

I was basically agreeing with you, and I'm not fixated on the year 2005 - you posted directly after my response to sinbin's post, in which he claimed the King had not spoken in public since 2005 and that his usage of "chaao dtang chaat" in that year's speech somehow proved that he would not use the word farang.

I was simply stating that he used the word in a different context (for sinbad's benefit), but that I had not yet found a direct quote where he used the word farang (which sinbad had requested). I assumed that you had read the previous 2 or 3 posts, obviously I should not have.

Incidentally, there is no such word as perjorative in the English language, but perhaps you haven't been speaking that language fluently for 28 years.

I was in a rush and was clearly confused as to whom I was addressing. Sorry about that.

Incidentally, why so snide? I made a typo or maybe an unconscious spelling error. Big freaking deal. In fact I made quite few errors but you decided to single out that one -- kid of petty, no?

here you go:

...because I mentioned it to some people the next day as reinforcement of my views on the words lack of inherent pejorative meaning.

As to that comment, if I hadn't been in a hurry, I might have elaborated that I don't necessarily agree that the King's use of the word proves that there's nothing inherently insulting about it -- I don't assume His Majesty couldn't possibly think of foreigners in less than flattering terms; while I am inclined to think it is an indication of that, I was actually intending to address the idea that "polite/educated/hi-class" Thais don't use the word Farang. (There's a lot of BS from some Farangs who have some idealized notion of upper class Thais who they like to portray as being above the things that those Farangs don't approve of but it's my view that those Farangs are not only elitists with a low opinion of a huge swathe of the Thai populace, but in fact don't really know what the are talking about.)

[inthepink]

I was in a rush and was clearly confused as to whom I was addressing. Sorry about that.

Incidentally, why so snide? I made a typo or maybe an unconscious spelling error. Big freaking deal. In fact I made quite few errors but you decided to single out that one -- kid of petty, no?

here you go:

...because I mentioned it to some people the next day as reinforcement of my views on the words lack of inherent pejorative meaning.

As to that comment, if I hadn't been in a hurry, I might have elaborated that I don't necessarily agree that the King's use of the word proves that there's nothing inherently insulting about it -- I don't assume His Majesty couldn't possibly think of foreigners in less than flattering terms; while I am inclined to think it is an indication of that, I was actually intending to address the idea that "polite/educated/hi-class" Thais don't use the word Farang. (There's a lot of BS from some Farangs who have some idealized notion of upper class Thais who they like to portray as being above the things that those Farangs don't approve of but it's my view that those Farangs are not only elitists with a low opinion of a huge swathe of the Thai populace, but in fact don't really know what the are talking about.)

Yes, my post was a little petty, mainly because I thought you came across as a little pompous, announcing that you have been fluent in Thai for 28 years (of course it is difficult to pick up the tone of a comment when not speaking to somebody face to face so I could have got that wrong, which is why I just had a little dig at your English rather than explain myself in a long-winded manner as I have now!).

In any case, I was trying to agree with the sentiment you just expressed, i.e. the fact that the king used the word farang should be enough to demonstrate that those who believe only low-class Thai people use it are wrong.

To sum up: You're pompous and I'm petty, but we both agree that the word farang is used by Thai people from all classes and academic backgrounds.

Edited April 24, 2011 by inthepink

[Firelily]

I'm no good googling in Thai so I cannot pull up a reference for the king's speech. I heard it and we were discussing it the day after. could have been 2005 or 2006 or 2007. maybe not a birthday speech, but some other occasion, sorry, don't remember more.

I've only been here 6 years, but I am sick of grownups moaning about a simple word that's being used all over, affectionately or rudely, just like any other word in the language. most words are kinda flexible in any language.

I asked a bunch of good questions a while back, about the implications of the word, about farang and Thai identities, anyone bothered to address those, or is it easier to get stuck up on a simple word and go round and round scratching the surface? well, your kids, not mine, will be your issues soon, not mine, better start thinking sooner rather than later....

[473geo]

I'm no good googling in Thai so I cannot pull up a reference for the king's speech. I heard it and we were discussing it the day after. could have been 2005 or 2006 or 2007. maybe not a birthday speech, but some other occasion, sorry, don't remember more.

I've only been here 6 years, but I am sick of grownups moaning about a simple word that's being used all over, affectionately or rudely, just like any other word in the language. most words are kinda flexible in any language.

I asked a bunch of good questions a while back, about the implications of the word, about farang and Thai identities, anyone bothered to address those, or is it easier to get stuck up on a simple word and go round and round scratching the surface? well, your kids, not mine, will be your issues soon, not mine, better start thinking sooner rather than later....

I made the decision my children would be brought up as Thai.....in Thailand....they have been educated in the Thai way, go to local schools, have local friends and many close family of the same age to play with close by.....I think this is working out ok as they are seen as having a farang Papa but in every other aspect are seen as Thai

Later in life they can make the more important decisions, for now they can be children, and they will grow with the emotional and physical knocks and bruises every child attracts

Of course this way is not for everybody, and I do not advocate that any other person follows my lead, currently this approach works for me.

[SteeleJoe]

I was in a rush and was clearly confused as to whom I was addressing. Sorry about that.

Incidentally, why so snide? I made a typo or maybe an unconscious spelling error. Big freaking deal. In fact I made quite few errors but you decided to single out that one -- kid of petty, no?

here you go:

...because I mentioned it to some people the next day as reinforcement of my views on the words lack of inherent pejorative meaning.

As to that comment, if I hadn't been in a hurry, I might have elaborated that I don't necessarily agree that the King's use of the word proves that there's nothing inherently insulting about it -- I don't assume His Majesty couldn't possibly think of foreigners in less than flattering terms; while I am inclined to think it is an indication of that, I was actually intending to address the idea that "polite/educated/hi-class" Thais don't use the word Farang. (There's a lot of BS from some Farangs who have some idealized notion of upper class Thais who they like to portray as being above the things that those Farangs don't approve of but it's my view that those Farangs are not only elitists with a low opinion of a huge swathe of the Thai populace, but in fact don't really know what the are talking about.)

Yes, my post was a little petty, mainly because I thought you came across as a little pompous, announcing that you have been fluent in Thai for 28 years (of course it is difficult to pick up the tone of a comment when not speaking to somebody face to face so I could have got that wrong, which is why I just had a little dig at your English rather than explain myself in a long-winded manner as I have now!).

In any case, I was trying to agree with the sentiment you just expressed, i.e. the fact that the king used the word farang should be enough to demonstrate that those who believe only low-class Thai people use it are wrong.

To sum up: You're pompous and I'm petty, but we both agree that the word farang is used by Thai people from all classes and academic backgrounds.

Agreed!

But I'd not be surprise if neither of us come across that way in real life.

And there's no denying I am (pretty much deliberately) a bit pompous in my posts but in this instance I offer as a partial excuse that I thought I had been condescended to by the person whom I thought I was addressing -- in fact I misunderstood what you were saying and thought you were someone else.

Public disclosure -- this is what I admitted in PM with one small addition:

I apologize. For whatever reason, when I used to post on another forum years ago, I developed this sort of online persona that doesn't have much to do with who I really am -- though I'm 100% sincere in the sentiment or reasoning of all my comments -- and it's just my shtick (the pompous and pedantic pontificating prick).

Even so, for various reasons -- among them the fact that even "SteeleJoe" doesn't want to be a COMPLETE ass -- I wouldn't ordinarily talk about whether or not I have Thai language skills. I just thought the person I was speaking to was lecturing me on Thai, and I bit..

Edited April 24, 2011 by SteeleJoe

[inthepink]

You're a gentleman SJ

Going back to the original post, I'm about to be the proud father of a little girl (all going well) and I was going to say that it might be difficult to explain to her why other Thai people called her a farang (if indeed she looks more Western than Thai) but then I thought better of it. If she is brought up and schooled in Thailand then it won't be something that I will need to explain to her at all.

I think roadschooler is making too much of the issue and looking for problems that don't really exist. You shouldn't arrive in a foreign country and expect them to comply with your ideas of political correctness. It wasn't that long ago, as already mentioned by myself and other posters, that black people in the USA were being murdered and persecuted owing to the colour of their skin and the British have nothing to boast about either, given their attitude towards West Indian immigrants in the 1950s.

It's a bit rich when Western visitors start to lecture Thai people on the usage of a word in their own language and claim to understand its meaning better than native speakers. Thailand does not have a history of colonising and abusing the natives of other countries so the use of a word that categorises people by the colour of their skin does not carry the same connotations that it might in the West. They might have nipped across the Mekong river and stolen a few Laos people in the past but it hardly compares to the way some European nations exploited other countries.

Also, Thailand as a unified nation has not been in existence for much more than a hundred years so I think we should be able to excuse what might look like xenophobic behaviour to outsiders - every new country goes through this phase. I mean look how the Americans butchered the English language just to prove they were a separate nation and different to the British!

[nocturn]

my daughter is quite proud her father is farang, and so am I.

[Nawtier]

Jesus get over it.......it is an expression of someone from a different race....you are, we are....so why try to hide the FACT ??

I get pissed with people being offended by the use of black fella or white fella......it is a fact, he is black, i am white....so where is the problem with using the terms ??

I had an old aboriginal friend in Oz many years ago....he called me white fella i called him black fells....neither cared nor thought a thing about it.....

Get over it and get on with more important things.

If anyone uses the word farang or black or white and adds offensive words to it, then that is obviously not correct.....but the simple use of identifying someone of different race or colour should not be an issue to normal well adjusted people......