An Experience With A Criminal Case Against A Third Party

[timewilltell]

I am in the process of taking a criminal action and civil action here in Thailand. I thought it might be useful to outline the procedure.

I will outline the criminal case first.

Went to the lawyer with evidence I had myself collected to prove a case of fraud - took about 2 months to gather the basic outline. Further evidence collected by lawyer to flesh out the case and then discussed with me. Statement produced in Thai and translated for me by lawyer (better to get your own translation done though as a check), case submitted to court. As this was a land matter I asked for the land department to be notified by letter of the case at the earliest opportunity but I don't think that was done because a mortgage was taken out on the land the day after the court case submitted. Anyway case submitted about 3-4 months after first learning of the fraud. I was told it takes about two weeks for the court to issue a case number and accept the case - in fact this information does not seem to be entirely correct - I think it is rather the court assign it a case number some time after the documents are actually submitted to court. The court issues the claim to the defendants and sets a date for a mediation hearing - about 3 months in the future.

The purpose of the mediation hearing is to allow the Claimant and Defendant to discuss the issue and see if a settlement can be reached prior to the matter going for trial. In my case the Defendant did not show up. The time for the hearing was 2.00pm I think but there was another case to be heard before mine so I had to sit through 2.5 hours of that case, its evidence and so on before mine was heard - mine took 10 minutes and I was asked only one question by the judge The papers were received by the judge who had clearly not read them in advance - the judge set another date for a second hearing two weeks later. I did not attend the second hearing but this hearing was just for the judge to accept the case had merit and a trial date was set 2 months in the future.

No court fee payable. Will update later on trial proceedings if i can.

Will update Civil Case procedure in a later post.

Please understand this is just my experience, I am not a lawyer although I have some legal knowledge from the UK. Do not rely on this one experience - it is just an outline and you should consult with your own lawyer in case of the need to take your own case. This is not intended to be legal advice in any form.

To recap

2 months = gather own evidence

3-4 months = instruct lawyer, gather further evidence, prepare statement of claim and translations

2 weeks = court to issue case number

2-3 months = time to arbitration / mediation hearing

2 weeks = time for judge to consider case and confirm date for trial

2-3 months - time until trial date.

[ukrules]

Is the third party a Thai or foreigner ?

[timewilltell]

The 3rd party is a Thai national.

Ok the second hearing date came. The Defendant did not attend. I was advised to find them. Case was adjourned for another two months.

The Third hearing came. Defendant did not show up. Arrest warrant with a validity of 2 months issued for their arrest. Case adjourned again for 2 months.

The fourth hearing came. Defendant did not show up. Asked why I had not found them (how the hell am I supposed to find someone here who doesn't want to be found and is not around anymore?) Case set aside. Arrest warrant valid for 10 years issued against defendant.

Lawyer advises me that the warrant will be sent to the police for action but that action is never taken except in murder cases and then only sometimes. I am to search the defendant out and then get the police to arrest her. I am told it will cost me 10,000 baht for me to persuade the police to actually arrest her as it is not seen as 'their business'. So I have to seek the person out, find a policeman and bribe him to get him to get off his fat ass and arrest the person - jeez!

Then apparently the police have 48 hours to negotiate bail with the person they have arrested. This is usually set at a lowish figure which is paid to the police whereupon they let the person go. If they don't voluntarily turn up then I have to pay to go find the person all over again and can do nothing agaiinst the police.

If by some miracle the person can't pay the bail then they are transferred to the Province where the arrest warrant was issued and held by the police for another 48 hours where again bail is set and can be paid to allow the release of the prisoner. Again if they don't come back then I have to pay to go find them all over again.

I asked another lawyer who confirmed it was pretty much the right information but sometimes you are not really sure you are being told the whole story. If this is the procedure how does anyone ever get sent to prison?

I am sure I am getting the wrong end of the stick and the procedure cannot be as whacky as this.

Does anyone else know of the procedure or has been through it can shed some light on what to do?

There is a fair sum involved - several millions of baht.

[rodentwarrior]

A farang taking legal action against a Thai national - and you expect justice?

[prefabs]

Be prepared for a long wait. One Pattaya real estate agent and developer has several judgements against him, civil and criminal.

5 years since and no money paid or criminal punishments yet. More appeals then more again. Each appeal, in several of the cases takes about 18 months

[random]

We are a farang business and we had an issue with a previous Thai manager, I will not go into details even though the matter has been dealt with but it involved theft, fraud, defamation.

Initially we went to Thonglor police with a lawyer employed by my employer, we had to pay the police to take the case, statements were taken from my employer and staff. A few months passed, by this time I was looking after the business so it was left to me to deal with it.

One day my staff was at the police station making a further statement whilst her husband sat outside, he overheard our lawyer and the defendants lawyer talking, in thai, and agreeing to drag it out as long as possible to get more money for themselves, Lucky he told me this, I called the lawyer and sacked him there and then.

oh, background, i am ex uk police and have law degree.

I employed a new lawyer and at this point things started to move quicker, eventually we were called to court for negotiation, I had put the evidence together (expect to do this as the lawyer does very little on this front). At negotiation the defendant made a derisory offer which I rejected and asked to move forward to trial, the judge agreed (this is held in a side room rather than in the court). We were told there is only one chance for this negotiation, however 2 months later we were called back again for negotiation in front of a different judge. he told us that he will be the trial judge but would like one more chance at negotiation first, he asked that the criminal and civil be split and he will deal with the criminal at that time if I agreed, he went on to tell both me and the defendant that based on the evidence if it goes to trial that we will win and the defendant would have a conviction, as well as a prison term, and damages to pay, so advised them to make a serious offer. This offer was made and I accepted it along with other terms. This brought an end to criminal proceedings but not the civil ones which are still ongoing.

So our procedure was to go to the police, present the case, pay them to deal with it, they then interview the defendant, forward the case to a prosecutor to decide if it moves onto court. In our matter is was forwarded to the courts. At no point was the defendant charged with any offence or arrested for any offence.

the matter took 12 months before we got to court, the civil matter is another 12 months with still no court date.

You are correct that there is no need to visit police, it can be taken directly to the courts, expect negotiation/mediation first and then only after this expect any trial.

this was my experience, maybe others differ. we are farang, the defendant was thai, don't buy into the old cliche that you will not win, put the case together strongly, stand firm when the try and dissuade you, and you will get the right decision at the end of it.

throughout the whole matter, the only people that asked for money was the police, this stopped when the new lawyer appeared as he was high profile and seemed to be associated with high profile people, but he did cost more

[Richard4849]

A farang taking legal action against a Thai national - and you expect justice?

This is the expected retort from a bar stool gossip with no knowledge.

I have been involved in both criminal and civil suits against Thai nationals, and I did not feel that there was any bias against me in the court system (yes: I won all of them).

[rgs2001uk]

A farang taking legal action against a Thai national - and you expect justice?

This is the expected retort from a bar stool gossip with no knowledge.

I have been involved in both criminal and civil suits against Thai nationals, and I did not feel that there was any bias against me in the court system (yes: I won all of them).

From your postings I was under the impression you are Thai, so why would there be any bias against you?

[Richard4849]

My adventures in the Thai legal system long predated my naturalization as a Thai citizen.

[zokaruto]

why would be there no justice ( not everyone is corroupt)

[nocturn]

A farang taking legal action against a Thai national - and you expect justice?

the Thai courts are actually quite impartial, I dont know of anyone who has had a vaild case who has been screwed over, and i know of a number of Foreigners who have initiated proceedings and won.in the civil and family court arenas.

[rodentwarrior]

A farang taking legal action against a Thai national - and you expect justice?

the Thai courts are actually quite impartial, I dont know of anyone who has had a vaild case who has been screwed over, and i know of a number of Foreigners who have initiated proceedings and won.in the civil and family court arenas.

If that is indeed the case, then I apologise. I have been here for more than 7 years, and I know many friends who have businesses here who happen to be foreigners. I am yet to hear, first hand, of a foreigner winning a case in court against a Thai national. I heard, first hand, of many occasions when the Courts have found against what I consider to be 'natural' justice.

I am not a 'bar stool gossip'. I have progressed and won many cases in the UK, acting for myself at every level, from County Court, through to appeal courts and even, in one case, the Royal Courts of Justice. All my cases were civil.

[Richard4849]

Apology accepted.

[rgs2001uk]

My adventures in the Thai legal system long predated my naturalization as a Thai citizen.

Understood.

Lays to rest the myth about the Thai legal procedure.

[prefabs]

A farang taking legal action against a Thai national - and you expect justice?

the Thai courts are actually quite impartial, I dont know of anyone who has had a vaild case who has been screwed over, and i know of a number of Foreigners who have initiated proceedings and won.in the civil and family court arenas.

If that is indeed the case, then I apologise. I have been here for more than 7 years, and I know many friends who have businesses here who happen to be foreigners. I am yet to hear, first hand, of a foreigner winning a case in court against a Thai national. I heard, first hand, of many occasions when the Courts have found against what I consider to be 'natural' justice.

I am not a 'bar stool gossip'. I have progressed and won many cases in the UK, acting for myself at every level, from County Court, through to appeal courts and even, in one case, the Royal Courts of Justice. All my cases were civil.

As I said in a previous post, winning your case and collecting what is due to you are 2 different things. 5 years of judgements against a guy who has failed to cough up and appears to find loopholes everywhere. Even his lawyer gave up as he was not being paid!!!!!!!!!!!

[timewilltell]

We are a farang business and we had an issue with a previous Thai manager, I will not go into details even though the matter has been dealt with but it involved theft, fraud, defamation.

Initially we went to Thonglor police with a lawyer employed by my employer, we had to pay the police to take the case, statements were taken from my employer and staff. A few months passed, by this time I was looking after the business so it was left to me to deal with it.

One day my staff was at the police station making a further statement whilst her husband sat outside, he overheard our lawyer and the defendants lawyer talking, in thai, and agreeing to drag it out as long as possible to get more money for themselves, Lucky he told me this, I called the lawyer and sacked him there and then.

oh, background, i am ex uk police and have law degree.

I employed a new lawyer and at this point things started to move quicker, eventually we were called to court for negotiation, I had put the evidence together (expect to do this as the lawyer does very little on this front). At negotiation the defendant made a derisory offer which I rejected and asked to move forward to trial, the judge agreed (this is held in a side room rather than in the court). We were told there is only one chance for this negotiation, however 2 months later we were called back again for negotiation in front of a different judge. he told us that he will be the trial judge but would like one more chance at negotiation first, he asked that the criminal and civil be split and he will deal with the criminal at that time if I agreed, he went on to tell both me and the defendant that based on the evidence if it goes to trial that we will win and the defendant would have a conviction, as well as a prison term, and damages to pay, so advised them to make a serious offer. This offer was made and I accepted it along with other terms. This brought an end to criminal proceedings but not the civil ones which are still ongoing.

So our procedure was to go to the police, present the case, pay them to deal with it, they then interview the defendant, forward the case to a prosecutor to decide if it moves onto court. In our matter is was forwarded to the courts. At no point was the defendant charged with any offence or arrested for any offence.

the matter took 12 months before we got to court, the civil matter is another 12 months with still no court date.

You are correct that there is no need to visit police, it can be taken directly to the courts, expect negotiation/mediation first and then only after this expect any trial.

this was my experience, maybe others differ. we are farang, the defendant was thai, don't buy into the old cliche that you will not win, put the case together strongly, stand firm when the try and dissuade you, and you will get the right decision at the end of it.

throughout the whole matter, the only people that asked for money was the police, this stopped when the new lawyer appeared as he was high profile and seemed to be associated with high profile people, but he did cost more

I would like to know the name of the second lawyer - maybe you could PM me as I am really not happy with the one I have at the moment. Thanks