Japanese Cameraman Muramoto Not Killed By Thai Army: DSI

[phiphidon]

7.62mm bullets do not only have to be fired from AK47's though, do they. The Army snipers used 7.62mm bullets in their SG-3000 Sniper Rifles, about 2,500 of them it appears, unless the tally of the amount of bullets handed out compared to those returned to the armouries changes mysteriously in the near future. General Prayuth has apparently ordered all ammunition unused by troops in the "crackdown" to be returned quickly. Presumably so the true number of bullets fired can be made public (out of interest the Army withdrew nearly 600,000 bullets and used about 100,000 of them).

The ammunition from a sniper rifle travels faster than that from an AK and leaves a different wound track doesn't it?

If your number of rounds fired is accurate then it doesn't show much intent on killing, does it?

I wouldn't know, I'm not a sniper nor an expert on gunshot trauma. Presumably the good Doctor advisor to the DSI is and can tell the difference between the wounds caused by a 7.62mm Bullet fired from an AK47 and one fired from a SG3000 (or any other gun capable of firing 7.62mm ammunition) just by looking at photographs whilst not being able to distinguish the size of ammo involved in the other deaths, even though he dismissed the opinions of the other doctors who were actually present at the autopsies. That is some expert.

Sniper's are also not the only RTA personnel using guns that fire 7.62mm ammunition. There are also HK13, IMI Galil's in circulation and the old Type 56-1's used by the Rangers.

I am not going to get into a peeing contest with you over number of rounds fired to actual kill ratio - I'll leave that to other more, how shall I put it, colourful posters on the forum who seem to revel in that sort of thing.

Final point - not my estimate of rounds fired - see previous post.

[jdinasia]

I wouldn't know, I'm not a sniper nor an expert on gunshot trauma. Presumably the good Doctor advisor to the DSI is and can tell the difference between the wounds caused by a 7.62mm Bullet fired from an AK47 and one fired from a SG3000 (or any other gun capable of firing 7.62mm ammunition) just by looking at photographs whilst not being able to distinguish the size of ammo involved in the other deaths, even though he dismissed the opinions of the other doctors who were actually present at the autopsies. That is some expert.

Sniper's are also not the only RTA personnel using guns that fire 7.62mm ammunition. There are also HK13, IMI Galil's in circulation and the old Type 56-1's used by the Rangers.

I am not going to get into a peeing contest with you over number of rounds fired to actual kill ratio - I'll leave that to other more, how shall I put it, colourful posters on the forum who seem to revel in that sort of thing.

Final point - not my estimate of rounds fired - see previous post.

Right, I'll help you out. As pointed out by others the ammo is not interchangeable. The velocities are different. The wound tracks are different and the entry wounds tend to be similar but velocity does matter. The question then becomes what was issued on April 10th. You are free to look that back up. The taharan prahn also have AK's as an issue weapon.

So ... the question becomes even less clear as to who the shooters were, but since AK's weren't issued and m16's were (to the RTA) and in light of video evidence seeing sniper fire apparently from inside red lines and above it isn't unreasonable for an inquiry (that never said the army was responsible .. but that they may have been responsible) to follow another path upon further investigation. Personally, I doubt the army killed the reporter. I don't doubt that the army was responsible for many of the deaths. I don't doubt that the reds were responsible for many of the deaths. I cannot quantify those opinions as to how many either side were directly responsible for. I can state that imho it was the reds obvious intent to have blood flow on the street and that the government and army showed restraint as long as possible. I can state that imho that the number of victims (reduced by those that were obviously killed by the reds using grenades etc ....) versus the number of bullets fired (particularly your claim of how many sniper bullets) do not appear to show unrestrained intent to kill by the army nor does it seem to demonstrate reckless firing into crowds.

In a battle that includes the real politik of managing image it is not unreasonable to think that the reds would purposely kill anyone that would make the government look bad.

[fma]

The crackdown was done with such precision that absolutely none of the 90 fatalities were caused by the authorities, in fact they were so good that the terrorists started to kill each other in frustration.

With such exquisite performance I propose that the army send some consultants to Libya, Bahrain, Syria etc. to guide the current powers in how to peacefully dissolve the terrorist demonstrations we are witnessing

Post of the day.

Agree.

The RTA snipers have had enough "practice" to ensure their accuracy..........

philw

Somehow I have the feeling these posts ignore the 12 - 15 odd police officers & soldiers who also died during the 'unrests'. I'm not even talking about 'collateral damage' (yet).

I know I'm prejudiced, ever since I passed BTS Saladaeng just a few hours before the grenade attack. Imagine how I would feel having been there at the 'right' moment (assuming I would have survived it).

No I do not. There will be 'wildcards' and 'Rambos' in such a group of protesters. No excuse is made for that. I do however expect a more controlled, professional and humane behaviour against their own citizens from the Big Guns'.

Providing live ammunition to all the soldiers is either a sign of panic (this happened before the first death) or a cold hearted calculated strategy. Snipers on the roofs is without doubt the latter. How anyone can defend the man responsible for these actions, and how he can still be the prime minister after this tragedy is just a sign of how primitive Thailand is in terms of human rights and fair treatment.

Regarding the Saladaeng bombing and similar attacks I will be a bit primitive myself and ask if this was done by the redshirts or by people eager to provoke another military takeover. The incompetent, corrupt and imbecile police force and investigative institutions have yet to show a trace of proof for one or the other. I am sure that The Nation and the Bangkok Post would be happy to publish anything remotely similar to proof blaming the redshirts, but I have not seen it.

I would like to compare the claims of terrorism on the part of the redshirts to the claims of 'weapons of mass destruction' that instigated the invasion of Iraq. Pure bullshit and propaganda.

[whybother]

<snip>

I would like to compare the claims of terrorism on the part of the redshirts to the claims of 'weapons of mass destruction' that instigated the invasion of Iraq. Pure bullshit and propaganda.

Except that there is proof that the red shirts had guns and grenades, and were involved in attacks on the army and innocent by-standers.

[jdinasia]

<snip>

I would like to compare the claims of terrorism on the part of the redshirts to the claims of 'weapons of mass destruction' that instigated the invasion of Iraq. Pure bullshit and propaganda.

Except that there is proof that the red shirts had guns and grenades, and were involved in attacks on the army and innocent by-standers.

Not to mention the redshirt leaders speeches from redshirt stages. Bring a million empty bottles (we will fill them with gasoline in bkk) and we will burn bkk to the ground ---WAY before the rally started. The fact that fma excuses the use of war weapons by the reds tells all we need to know.

[fma]

<snip>

I would like to compare the claims of terrorism on the part of the redshirts to the claims of 'weapons of mass destruction' that instigated the invasion of Iraq. Pure bullshit and propaganda.

Except that there is proof that the red shirts had guns and grenades, and were involved in attacks on the army and innocent by-standers.

Again: Bangkok Post, owned by the Central Group which is part of the upper echelons of establishment, would not have hesitated a second to publish everything that could blame the redshirts.

I have seen a collection of old shotguns, slingshots, bows and arrows and a pitiful selection of varied ammunition. This is what Thaksin the billionaire is providing for his troops?

Come on!

If anything, Thaksin probably did not think that Abhisit had the nerve and was cold enough to mobilize snipers.

I do not deny that protesters got violent and aggressive, but that is bound to happen when people around you get assassinated by snipers.

How about a fair investigation of both parts in this conflict? Everybody know that this has not happened and never will.

Just like there never will be an election observed by neutral observers. THAT would remove the weapon of disqualifying the opponents of the establishment.

According to Suthep: Innocent bystanders - people standing in the way of bullets ( that was ARMY bullets of course), and they rightly deserved it since they lacked the intelligence to kowtow and go back to the rice paddies.

[rubl]

...

I do not deny that protesters got violent and aggressive, but that is bound to happen when people around you get assassinated by snipers.

...

Methinks you have the order in which things happened a wee bit mixed, my dear chap. May I suggest you do some read-up first ?

[Buchholz]

<snip>

I would like to compare the claims of terrorism on the part of the redshirts to the claims of 'weapons of mass destruction' that instigated the invasion of Iraq. Pure bullshit and propaganda.

Except that there is proof that the red shirts had guns and grenades, and were involved in attacks on the army and innocent by-standers.

Again: Bangkok Post, owned by the Central Group which is part of the upper echelons of establishment, would not have hesitated a second to publish everything that could blame the redshirts.

I have seen a collection of old shotguns, slingshots, bows and arrows and a pitiful selection of varied ammunition.

You mean like this?

a Red Shirt firing a Grenade Launcher like Wanlop Pitheeprom, shown demonstrating his skill during a re-enactment.

[Buchholz]

OR another Red Shirt Grenade Launcher...

Late Maj-Gen Khattiya's aide arrested for firing M-79 grenades at BTS station

BANGKOK, Dec 22 - Thailand's Department of Special Investigation (DSI) on Wednesday said it has arrested a close aide of the late Maj-Gen Khattiya Swasdipol for allegedly firing M79 grenades into Bangkok's prime Silom commercial district during the Red Shirt demonstrations and will seek court approval to further detain the suspect tomorrow.

DSI director-general Tharit Pengdit said 29-year-old James Singsit, a former Thai Army Ranger with an outstanding warrant on terrorism-related charges, was arrested Tuesday evening in the Chaeng Wattana area.

Or any of the various other Red Shirt Bombers, Shooters, etc.

It's been in the news, fma.

[IanPrince99]

"Relying on statements from a trajectory expert, the DSI insisted that all 13 victims killed during the clash between soldiers and red shirts at Khok Wua intersection on April 10 last year were killed by 7.62mm bullets. Such bullets came from weapons not in commission with the Army. " . . .. CASE CLOSE. Go jump off a building if you don't like the verdict. The verdict is final.

[phiphidon]

"Relying on statements from a trajectory expert, the DSI insisted that all 13 victims killed during the clash between soldiers and red shirts at Khok Wua intersection on April 10 last year were killed by 7.62mm bullets. Such bullets came from weapons not in commission with the Army. " . . .. CASE CLOSE. Go jump off a building if you don't like the verdict. The verdict is final.

A very reasoned response. The DSI said it did not happen therefore it did not happen. Case closed. Anyone who questions this viewpoint is advised to jump off a building.

Ever thought about a career in PR.

[animatic]

One point here I don't understand - If your goal is to make the army responsible for killing your protesters or others - Why use a weapon they don't have?

It would be easy to have the same weapons the army had, the police were handing them out for two day before the clash. Recall the hundreds of weapons returned under protest as seen live on TV. It is not like they could not have had many of them if they wanted.

It would seem if you wanted to kill and make someone responsible for it you would use a weapon that you don't have or one you can claim you don't have and surly use one they use.

Now who makes that claim? Just an observation.

2 possible reasons.

1 ) they aren't too bright

2 ) they might have thought that they could make the government fall before it got into an investigation, they take over, and then they could white wash it themselves if it even got that far.

Ballistics is about the marks of bullets and their deformations relative to the weapons used.

Forensics or Medical Forensics is about the affects on objects and beings of those projectiles and what happens after they hit something. ie what type of hole does a particular bullet make entering when fired at x distance, and what typer of exit wound if it exits, and what happens in between and what ancillary affects it has on the target and it's environment. And also coupling that to any media, such as CCTV or photos or news cameras, and/or eye/ear witness accounts to determine what happened.

In this case they would have nothing resembling a 'pristine environment' and if the bullet exited the person it would be lost from a ballistics viewpoint. Using DNA if that bullet is found it might have been matched to the victim, but there was no reports of a successful forensic search of the riot scene for anything.

So, by the obvious constraints the forensic and ballistics teams are under, it is improbable that much more than what they have stated CAN be found out.

Ballistics is, according to Merriam Webster's Dictionary of Law:

1) a: the science of the motion of projectiles (as bullets) in flight

b: the flight characteristics of a projectile (as a bullet)

2) the study of the processes within a firearm as it is fired

American Heritage Science Dictionary:

The scientific study of the characteristics of projectiles, such as bullets or missiles, and the way they move in flight.

Then , even as I pout up text book definitions of ballistics earlier, I will say :

Ballistics is about the marks of bullets and their deformations relative to the weapons used,

in addition to their flight characteristics.

From the moment moment the trigger is fired ballistics comes into play,

including how the charge functions, it's path in and around the gun

and what deformations and striations are affected on the 'ball' prior to coming to rest.

[animatic]

Not sure what the army used those 100,000 cartridges on. Either they're lousy shots or there has been a brisk business in ammunition

Well the information is out there in the public domain unless you fell asleep at that part of the censure debate. Now I'm sure that number will be revised downwards greatly once the "official" report is made known but that still only works out about 2 / 3 bullets for every soldier involved. Allowing for the fact they spent all the time firing over the heads of protesters, it doesn't take long to get rid of 2 or 3 bullets each, you know. There were some anomalies of course, like the 7 bullets put into Akaradej Kankaew, one of 5 Medical Workers shot and killed during the "crackdown".

I might have dosed off a bit when MP Jatuporn was going on and on about nurses and a few red-shirts killed.

Still, as I'm willing to accept nice round figures let's do some interesting (mis)calculations. Assuming 1 in 100 shots fired will kill, we should have 1000 dead. Question, where did the government hide those bodies

There is no doubt a difference between 100,000 cartridges distributed to troupes at some point and not returned to point of origin, and the number of shots actually fired.

So those extra rounds were not returned to point of origin, does that absolutely mean they were all fired?

Yes, where did anyone hide bodies that weren't killed?

1,000 alleged dead reds, and no one reports them missing???

I guess they were only recruiting friendless red orphans, so it only came up after they found a doc saying 100,000 rounds were allocated.

100,000 divided by 13 = 7692.3

Seems 7,692 M-16 bullets were not used to kill any of the 13 dead

possibly by AK-47s, or other less-common sniper rifles.

Edited March 26, 2011 by animatic

[phiphidon]

Not sure what the army used those 100,000 cartridges on. Either they're lousy shots or there has been a brisk business in ammunition

Well the information is out there in the public domain unless you fell asleep at that part of the censure debate. Now I'm sure that number will be revised downwards greatly once the "official" report is made known but that still only works out about 2 / 3 bullets for every soldier involved. Allowing for the fact they spent all the time firing over the heads of protesters, it doesn't take long to get rid of 2 or 3 bullets each, you know. There were some anomalies of course, like the 7 bullets put into Akaradej Kankaew, one of 5 Medical Workers shot and killed during the "crackdown".

I might have dosed off a bit when MP Jatuporn was going on and on about nurses and a few red-shirts killed.

Still, as I'm willing to accept nice round figures let's do some interesting (mis)calculations. Assuming 1 in 100 shots fired will kill, we should have 1000 dead. Question, where did the government hide those bodies

There is no doubt a difference between 100,000 cartridges distributed to troupes at some point and not returned to point of origin, and the number of shots actually fired.

So those extra rounds were not returned to point of origin, does that absolutely mean they were all fired?

Yes, where did anyone hide bodies that weren't killed?

1,000 alleged dead reds, and no one reports them missing???

I guess they were only recruiting friendless red orphans, so it only came up after they found a doc saying 100,000 rounds were allocated.

100,000 divided by 13 = 7692.3

Seems 7,692 M-16 bullets were not used to kill any of the 13 dead

possibly by AK-47s, or other less-common sniper rifles.

Not sure I follow you as it seems that you and rubi are arguing/agreeing (I'm not sure which) with each other over complete suppositions. As I pointed out in my original post we'll all be fully aware of exactly how many rounds have been fired once Gen.Prayuth has got all his remaining bullets back and got his calculator out. I'll stick my neck out and predict that the numbers offered up will be low as suddenly bullets will appear from nowhere and sent back to the armouries, allegedly.

For the record according to Pol Lt Col Somchai Phetprasoet Army Units drew out of the armouries 597,500 Bullets with 479,577 returned (so far) .

[TAWP]

I have seen a collection of old shotguns, slingshots, bows and arrows and a pitiful selection of varied ammunition. This is what Thaksin the billionaire is providing for his troops?

Come on!

Maybe you missed: http://www.thaiphotoblogs.com/index.php?blog=5&title=thai-govt-shows-red-arsenal&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1

[TAWP]

And silent it went...

[KunMatt]

And silent it went...

Because you brought facts and photographic evidence into the argument and that's just not fair!

The conspiracy theorists are always quiet whenever something doesn't fit into the fantasy they want to believe. The Red riots last year were not peaceful protests at all, and the army's actions were not the Tianamen Square massascre that the brainwashed on here want us to believe. Anyone who was in Thailand last year and was affected by the red thugs, or even just watching the local news showing the videos of all the violence and threats they ended up carrying out in the cities we live in, will know that.

How anyone (farangs and Thais) can still support the Red leaders after they blatently lied about everything they were doing and what they said they set out to do, then like the cowards they are all surrendered as soon as the army got within shooting distance of any of them is beyond me. But then all of the Reds I know personally only did it for the money anyways, so while there is still a fund I guess there will be support from the easily manipulated.

[animatic]

And silent it went...

A deafening silence.

The truth will set you free.

But sometimes it will shut you up too.

[phiphidon]

And silent it went...

A deafening silence.

The truth will set you free.

But sometimes it will shut you up too.

And the truth is:

whatever the government states, or the way I see things, or more likely somewhere in between? If this is the case, as most open minded people would suspect, it follows that the government have been lying on occasions, as they state "facts" and all I have is opinions. The Government by definition has more power of persuasion than I or others who disagree with their version of the truth (as can be seen by this very forum) so again it would follow that the truth will be whatever the government can get away with. Personally I do not think that a very satisfactory state of affairs, especially when the government pays lip service to reconcilliation with a "truth" panel set up by them that is incapable of even investigating the elusive "truth", let alone coming up with it.

Yes the truth will set you free, just don't expect it any time soon.

.

[Buchholz]

And silent it went...

A deafening silence.

The truth will set you free.

But sometimes it will shut you up too.

And the truth is:

whatever the government states, or the way I see things, or more likely somewhere in between? If this is the case, as most open minded people would suspect, it follows that the government have been lying on occasions, as they state "facts" and all I have is opinions. The Government by definition has more power of persuasion than I or others who disagree with their version of the truth (as can be seen by this very forum) so again it would follow that the truth will be whatever the government can get away with. Personally I do not think that a very satisfactory state of affairs, especially when the government pays lip service to reconcilliation with a "truth" panel set up by them that is incapable of even investigating the elusive "truth", let alone coming up with it.

Yes the truth will set you free, just don't expect it any time soon.

But what we can do, however, is set the record straight for those aspects of the truth that can be shown.

In that regard, when comments like:

I have seen a collection of old shotguns, slingshots, bows and arrows and a pitiful selection of varied ammunition. This is what Thaksin the billionaire is providing for his troops?

Come on!

are thrown out there, the truthful part of that aspect can be shown... as TAWP and Post # 68 did so well.

.

Edited March 28, 2011 by Buchholz

[hammered]

Yes the truth will set you free, just don't expect it any time soon.

Agh but that very much decides on who choses what the truth is and who gets to write it up...