Do Condo Co Owners Have Any Rights In Bkk Condo'S?

[nycboy57]

There was a story in the Nation about a law passed in 2008 making it illegal to rent out an apartment by Co owners as if they were hotels.

How do co owners who do not want short time renters taking over the condo get this law enforced when the Committee are all absentee co owners here in Bkk Condo?

We called the Hotel Association that was mentioned as objecting to these illegal rentals to tell them what is going on in our Bkk Condo and they never came to investigate or report to the government agencies that are supposed to be collecting taxes and stopping illegal rental activities.

Does anyone have experience with this? and does anyone know a government agency that should be called to enforce this law? or know an Attorney that could help write a letter to the Committee and Juristic to force them to stop these illegal renters?

Thanks in advance

[PattayaParent]

Get the condo management to do something.

And report the co-owners to the inland revenue, they are no doubt not paying tax on their rental income.

[trogers]

Which law makes it illegal for condo units to be let out on short leases?

Bringing the tax authorities into the building will hit all owners who are renting their units out, not just those on short leases.

[trogers]

Perhaps you have misunderstood the difference in legal definitions of apartment and a condo.

[nycboy57]

I tried to get Condo committee to do something about these short time rentals since

they are tearing the building apart with trash and other things, since they do not have a vested interest in the property.

As for the Committee and the juristic they seem to not care, and the co owners that are allowing some agents that live there, and are very disrespectful to the few of us farang that actually want to make this our home, they have the power since they hold proxies when the once a year election comes up for the committee members.

As for those that don't give a blank about this Condo if the law as Stated in The Nation and TV a few months ago in an article is followed the way the article said, it is illegal to rent out as a short time hotel an apartment unless it is specifically setup to be run as a hotel/motel type of operation with hotel requirements and fees to the government.

If this Condo is investigated and the Hotel Association which was listed in the article followed up on my call to them many months ago about this Condo at least, then these people would be forced to follow the law and make this a regular rental Condo and not a short time motel.

We were told a form is available at 7/11 and once filled out and mailed to some Government agency they will come and investigate.

Some of us that live here full time are tired of these short time people coming in and destroying the property and not paying their share in maintaining what they are doing to this place.

If I knew that this was the way it was I never would have bought in.

But since I am stuck here for now, I will try and get something done

All I ask is if anyone knows a lawyer, a law, an agency that can help us.

I am investigating all I can by myself but was hoping that someone had experience with this and would guide us. If not then we will keep on doing the research and do what we have to in order to keep this place a Condo that is livable.

Thanks again for any help out there.

If you want to find the article just search TV or the Nation about Hotel Association complaining about loss of revenue and illegal rentals.

I wish they would do something instead of complaining about it, especially when people like me are doing the work for them and calling with the details of activity, we are farang and they are Thai and supposed to be looking out for their constituents that are paying them fees as an organization and all the money lost in revenue for taxes that these short time rentals are not paying their share to the Thai government.

I know from the last story about this allot of TV people were sticking up for the illegal renters and not caring about the hotels and or the government.

[Delight]

Perhaps you have misunderstood the difference in legal definitions of apartment and a condo.

I am intrigued . What is the difference ?

[nycboy57]

Get the condo management to do something.

And report the co-owners to the inland revenue, they are no doubt not paying tax on their rental income.

I am sorry but wrote that the management called Juristic is doing nothing and the committee is doing nothing They do not live here, absentee committee and management that is put in by the few people that are doing the rentals short time, and have the proxies of the absentee co owners so they control the management and the committee.

The few of us that actually do live here suffer with these illegal short time renters.

As for the report to whom exactly.

I wrote that I did not know who to report to. Exactly I appreciate any help but if someone can be specific who to report illegal rentals and co owners ripping off without paying their share of taxes I would appreciate it.

I asked many people fromt the article that was written about the Hotel association losing allot of money from these illegal rentals for their members but when i notified them and tried to reach the newspaper they seemed to say they will investigate but as far as I can see no one came to me to investigate my situation at this condo.

So thanks for your input but need factual info not generalities like inland revenue, who exactly do you mean, can you give a phone number for us to call?

[pkrv]

Hi trogers - perhaps this may help

Which law makes it illegal for condo units to be let out on short leases?

Bringing the tax authorities into the building will hit all owners who are renting their units out, not just those on short leases.

Another thing to check: the bylaws of your specific condominium. Although the Condo Act covers the major points, the condo bylaws cover the minor points.

As an example, the Condo Act specifies that unit owners that are in arrears can have access to common area services restricted. Although this includes water, the condo association just can't turn off a unit's water.

The condo bylaws must specify the exact actions that will be taken. The bylaws of my condo specify:

1. warning letter after 30 days

2. second warning letter after 60 days

3. water turned off after 90 days

My condo building has 300 units (290 owners), and 20 of the unit owners were in arrears a total of 100,000THB.

Within 2 weeks of the change in the condo bylaws, all of the affected owners paid their back fees.

In our case - no rent out by the hour.....

[surayu]

Hey NycBoy57 you are still having a hard time??

Have you thought about renting your place to someone else and look for a new place? it might be worthed in the end, right now you are not able to enjoy your life as you should plus you are exposing yourself to potentially even lethal risks, be carefull there....

[PattayaParent]

So thanks for your input but need factual info not generalities like inland revenue, who exactly do you mean, can you give a phone number for us to call?

You obviously konw how to use a computer.

Ever heard that GIYF??

http://rdsrv2.rd.go.th/contactus_en/

[trogers]

Hi trogers - perhaps this may help

Which law makes it illegal for condo units to be let out on short leases?

Bringing the tax authorities into the building will hit all owners who are renting their units out, not just those on short leases.

Another thing to check: the bylaws of your specific condominium. Although the Condo Act covers the major points, the condo bylaws cover the minor points.

As an example, the Condo Act specifies that unit owners that are in arrears can have access to common area services restricted. Although this includes water, the condo association just can't turn off a unit's water.

The condo bylaws must specify the exact actions that will be taken. The bylaws of my condo specify:

1. warning letter after 30 days

2. second warning letter after 60 days

3. water turned off after 90 days

My condo building has 300 units (290 owners), and 20 of the unit owners were in arrears a total of 100,000THB.

Within 2 weeks of the change in the condo bylaws, all of the affected owners paid their back fees.

In our case - no rent out by the hour.....

What has non-payment of common fees anything to do with short term leases and competing with hotels?

[trogers]

Perhaps you have misunderstood the difference in legal definitions of apartment and a condo.

I am intrigued . What is the difference ?

An apartment buildling and all the units in it, all the common areas and all the land are owned by a single person or entity, similar to a hotel. Thus, units in an apartment building can be rented out by the hour or day if the owner so desire in direct competition with hotels.

http://www.doingbusinessthailand.com/thailand-property/difference-between-condos-and-apartments.html

[nycboy57]

thanks for the feedback ,

as for renting it out, i have put allot of money into this place and do not want it destroyed, except for a few problems, i would like to stay here in my retirement.

As for not enjoying my life because of the stress,

and fear of dealing with threats of violence and or death, which by the way the woman that does most of the short time rentals here, refused to discuss who she was putting in next door, and knows that we reported the Condo to the Commerce dept. or some form my girlfriend got in 7/11 to investigate the illegal short time rentals here, she gave me the sign of cutting my throat when she sees me, then when I sent her and her Farang husband a warning that we are reporting this to the police, they threaten me with some law about liable her. We did go to police to file the threat of violence and notified the Condo of her actions, of course I have no witnesses she does this when no one is looking.

My Attorney wants to file a suit against the Juristic for allowing this here and against the next door man who allows her to rent his place short time to derelicts that are destroying the property and m peace and serenity.

When her husband wrote me they immediately took the smoking tenant out yesterday and put him into another room.

The manager took my for sale sign off the bulletin board a few days ago and not put it back up saying 15 days on and 7 days off, we said why are some on continuous , and why does that lady have two up? she said she will go down to see. Still not up. I guess they don't want me to move?

In any case I appreciate any help on this matter.

Thanks for the concern, If they have my hurt or killed well so be it, I will take whats coming to me, TIT for not keeping my big mouth shut and standing up to the bullies and gangsters wherever I have lived.

Hey NycBoy57 you are still having a hard time??

Have you thought about renting your place to someone else and look for a new place? it might be worthed in the end, right now you are not able to enjoy your life as you should plus you are exposing yourself to potentially even lethal risks, be carefull there....

[cheeryble]

....... to investigate the illegal short time rentals here,

the rentals are illegal?

How so?

[CRUNCHER]

....... to investigate the illegal short time rentals here,

the rentals are illegal?

How so?

An investor has the right to a return on his investment. This includes renting out his condo, as long as he is not breaching any other laws e.g. renting for use for drugs, prostitution etc. How can other owners in the building stop him from exercising his rights to a return on his investment.

As far as I know there are no laws in Thailand that deal with the minimum length of a lease. I believe hotels are defined as places where there are rooms for rent at a daily rent. (I am subject to correction on this point.)

If owners could start to restrict the rights of others to rent out their condos where would it end? Would there then be restrictions on the type of tenants - no jews, no blacks, no gays? And then no Russians, no smokers, no drinkers? Would prospective tenants have to be vetted by the committee or management? Then there would be a commission to approve a lease.

The suggestion that there can be restrictions on the length of a lease sounds to me like the thin end of a very nasty wedge.

[pkrv]

Hi trogers - perhaps this may help

Which law makes it illegal for condo units to be let out on short leases?

Bringing the tax authorities into the building will hit all owners who are renting their units out, not just those on short leases.

Another thing to check: the bylaws of your specific condominium. Although the Condo Act covers the major points, the condo bylaws cover the minor points.

As an example, the Condo Act specifies that unit owners that are in arrears can have access to common area services restricted. Although this includes water, the condo association just can't turn off a unit's water.

The condo bylaws must specify the exact actions that will be taken. The bylaws of my condo specify:

1. warning letter after 30 days

2. second warning letter after 60 days

3. water turned off after 90 days

My condo building has 300 units (290 owners), and 20 of the unit owners were in arrears a total of 100,000THB.

Within 2 weeks of the change in the condo bylaws, all of the affected owners paid their back fees.

In our case - no rent out by the hour.....

What has non-payment of common fees anything to do with short term leases and competing with hotels?

Whoops sorry did not see that post lots going on for us at the moment apologies

Our condo bylaws say you cannot do that. - That is what I meant apologies - PKRV

[Delight]

To me you sound to be in serious trouble.

The Condo Act is designed to deal with these situations.

I think that the only course of action is to replace the Manager with a new one.

The first stage of this meeting is a Co _owners meeting . This has to be attended by 'people' -Proxies are not allowed.

You will require at least 20% of Total building vote.

This meeting will demand that a EGM is convened.

.Note :At this co -owners meeting you will need to elect a' Special Representative'. This person will organise/sign everything etc. Also disgruntled co-owners who have not paid their fees as a protest can pay into a bank account set up in the name of the special representative (Conditions apply)This will give them the legal right to vote. Those who do not pay cannot vote (they must be overdue for at least 6 months).

At the EGM to change( manager etc) you will need to win the vote . This winning vote must consist of min. 25 % of Total vote

But what then.

I can only advise that you do what disgruntled co -owners did at the condo where I live:

We approached a professional management company in April 2010. 1st Sept. 2010 we changed

They guided us through the process of change -stage by stage. They carried out a immense of work -and did not charge us 1 Baht for the service

If you wish to go ahead you will have to do a lot of work-before approaching any external help

1) Get a copy of the Voting list(This is available at your Land office if your current manager is unhelpful)

2) Canvass those other co -owners who you think want change. Get their e -mail addresses.Arrange an un -official meeting to discuss a plan of action. This in the early days will probably only serve to create good relationships. They are worth the effort for that reason alone.

3) With 1 and 2 in place work out your chances of getting a result at a EGM

4) Do not waste your time considering actions that will go nowhere. You will just create despondency and achieve nothing other than to lower the morale

5) Obtain a English copy of the Condo Act-not just the 2008 amendment-the whole thing which started in 1979. Read the parts relevant to your plan . Read them until you are almost an expert. Those against you will mis- quote the Act to favor them.

A condo must have Regulations and within those Regulations are the Rules ie the House Rules

The condo where I live has about 28 such House Rules. They are concerned with Do,s and Don,t and in particular they focus on un -acceptable behavior.

We have the House Rules as a seperate document. All tenants must sign to agree to accept these House Rules. If they refuse then the following is enacted for breaking that rule plus all the others.

It is a bit long winded - I apologize for taking the space.It reads as follows:

In the event that the room owners or his/her representative contravene or neglect any of these regulations 6 1.1 through 6.1.27 inclusive , the committee have the right to instruct manager to implement the following procedure.(As do the Co owners via an official resolution)

a) Advise the co owner ,verbally or alternatively by email mail ,that a change in behavior is required by them or their Guests/Tenants .

b)If problem is still un- resolved after 24 hours then a 2^nd E mail and registered letter to be organized.

c)The manager can use his /her discretion with timescales given that language/time zone difficulties can occur.

d) If this does not resolve the issue then the Manager (after seeking and obtaining permission from the majority of committee members) can implement the following :

Fine the co –owner with a 5000 Baht penalty . The payment to be received within 48 hours (or promise of payment to be received as quick as is practicable.)

If this is ignored then the water supply to room will be denied .

The management have the right to claim for compensation from the co owner due to loss or damage caused.

The co owner /tenant /guest will also not have right to use the elevator or the security door

Still with me?

I am happy to disclose details of the Company employed at the condo where I live. But not on this post.

If you want more info then send me an email . You can do this via my' Profile'

I attach a couple of JPEG,s -extracts from the ACT

Good Luck -you may need it

[CRUNCHER]

Fine the co –owner with a 5000 Baht penalty . The payment to be received within 48 hours (or promise of payment to be received as quick as is practicable.)

If this is ignored then the water supply to room will be denied .

The management have the right to claim for compensation from the co owner due to loss or damage caused.

The co owner /tenant /guest will also not have right to use the elevator or the security door

Where does the power to impose a fine of 5,000 baht come from? If not included in the Act or some other legislation, only courts can impose fines.

Power to turn off water and deny use of common facilities is included in the Act, but only when common fees remain unpaid for 6 months (Sect 18 or 19 I think). Where does the power come from to do that in circumstances above.

If you took the ultimate step and took a co-owner to court to enforce payment of the 5,000 baht fine I think you might have some difficulty. Of course the co-owner might take your juristic to court first if you turn off his water.

[Delight]

Fine the co –owner with a 5000 Baht penalty . The payment to be received within 48 hours (or promise of payment to be received as quick as is practicable.)

If this is ignored then the water supply to room will be denied .

The management have the right to claim for compensation from the co owner due to loss or damage caused.

The co owner /tenant /guest will also not have right to use the elevator or the security door

Where does the power to impose a fine of 5,000 baht come from? If not included in the Act or some other legislation, only courts can impose fines.

Power to turn off water and deny use of common facilities is included in the Act, but only when common fees remain unpaid for 6 months (Sect 18 or 19 I think). Where does the power come from to do that in circumstances above.

If you took the ultimate step and took a co-owner to court to enforce payment of the 5,000 baht fine I think you might have some difficulty. Of course the co-owner might take your juristic to court first if you turn off his water.

It is stated within our regulations.

The legal dept. of the external management company that we employ advised it was ok

It is not in conflict with the Condo Act.

No regulation can be in conflict with the Act.-This detail is not.

It can only be legal if it is part of a procedure which gives plenty of opportunity for the offending individual to change his/her behavior.Bad behavior causes anguish for all the other co -owners. Thai law is very much pro-consumer.

We have never had to employ it to date. It seems to have a deterrent effect. That was what we hoped it would achieve.

The main culprits for bad behavior are Tenants. We cannot fine the Tenants. Just the co -owner. Prior to its introduction the typically absent co -owner had no interest in controlling his/her tenants. Now he /she does.

It did get a majority vote at the AGM..

Granted it has never been tested in court -and that of course is always a available option for those who reject the rule. But for 5000 baht we figure that they will deal with the tenant-not involve the court.

If the fine was 100,000 Baht -no doubt things would be different.

The management company are very strict with us -for example gas bottles for barbecues are not allowed on balconies etc..,

Edited April 6, 2011 by Delight

[Gumballl]

I tried to get Condo committee to do something about these short time rentals since

they are tearing the building apart with trash and other things, since they do not have a vested interest in the property.

As for the Committee and the juristic they seem to not care, and the co owners that are allowing some agents that live there, and are very disrespectful to the few of us farang that actually want to make this our home, they have the power since they hold proxies when the once a year election comes up for the committee members.

As for those that don't give a blank about this Condo if the law as Stated in The Nation and TV a few months ago in an article is followed the way the article said, it is illegal to rent out as a short time hotel an apartment unless it is specifically setup to be run as a hotel/motel type of operation with hotel requirements and fees to the government.

If this Condo is investigated and the Hotel Association which was listed in the article followed up on my call to them many months ago about this Condo at least, then these people would be forced to follow the law and make this a regular rental Condo and not a short time motel.

We were told a form is available at 7/11 and once filled out and mailed to some Government agency they will come and investigate.

Some of us that live here full time are tired of these short time people coming in and destroying the property and not paying their share in maintaining what they are doing to this place.

If I knew that this was the way it was I never would have bought in.

But since I am stuck here for now, I will try and get something done

All I ask is if anyone knows a lawyer, a law, an agency that can help us.

I am investigating all I can by myself but was hoping that someone had experience with this and would guide us. If not then we will keep on doing the research and do what we have to in order to keep this place a Condo that is livable.

Thanks again for any help out there.

If you want to find the article just search TV or the Nation about Hotel Association complaining about loss of revenue and illegal rentals.

I wish they would do something instead of complaining about it, especially when people like me are doing the work for them and calling with the details of activity, we are farang and they are Thai and supposed to be looking out for their constituents that are paying them fees as an organization and all the money lost in revenue for taxes that these short time rentals are not paying their share to the Thai government.

I know from the last story about this allot of TV people were sticking up for the illegal renters and not caring about the hotels and or the government.

The only law that might protect you is one that concerns "zoning". If the building in which you live is not considered a hotel, then the hourly rental of a unit maybe considered illegal.

As for short-time rentals (say a week, a month, etc), that is something that only your Condominium Association can govern; the gov't will not be able to assist you there.

Before you buy into a condominium, which is generally governed by by-laws enforced by the home owners or trusted management company, you need to examine (that is, read) the by-laws. If they are satisfactory, then you use your conscience in acquiring the property. Otherwise, you do not buy.

If there is a breach of the by-laws by a neighbor, then you bring it to the attention of the management (juristic?). If that does not resolve the issue, then you proceed to civil court (and in the meantime, you kick yourself in the a$$ for buying a condo). The gov't has no jurisdiction in the use of a property unless it violates a zoning ordinance. In Thailand the concept is probably ignored, because it is a foreign concept. If the property is being used for illegal activity, then the BIB (Boys in Brown) might be interested. If they are involved, then you need to cut your losses.

[Delight]

I tried to get Condo committee to do something about these short time rentals since

they are tearing the building apart with trash and other things, since they do not have a vested interest in the property.

As for the Committee and the juristic they seem to not care, and the co owners that are allowing some agents that live there, and are very disrespectful to the few of us farang that actually want to make this our home, they have the power since they hold proxies when the once a year election comes up for the committee members.

As for those that don't give a blank about this Condo if the law as Stated in The Nation and TV a few months ago in an article is followed the way the article said, it is illegal to rent out as a short time hotel an apartment unless it is specifically setup to be run as a hotel/motel type of operation with hotel requirements and fees to the government.

If this Condo is investigated and the Hotel Association which was listed in the article followed up on my call to them many months ago about this Condo at least, then these people would be forced to follow the law and make this a regular rental Condo and not a short time motel.

We were told a form is available at 7/11 and once filled out and mailed to some Government agency they will come and investigate.

Some of us that live here full time are tired of these short time people coming in and destroying the property and not paying their share in maintaining what they are doing to this place.

If I knew that this was the way it was I never would have bought in.

But since I am stuck here for now, I will try and get something done

All I ask is if anyone knows a lawyer, a law, an agency that can help us.

I am investigating all I can by myself but was hoping that someone had experience with this and would guide us. If not then we will keep on doing the research and do what we have to in order to keep this place a Condo that is livable.

Thanks again for any help out there.

If you want to find the article just search TV or the Nation about Hotel Association complaining about loss of revenue and illegal rentals.

I wish they would do something instead of complaining about it, especially when people like me are doing the work for them and calling with the details of activity, we are farang and they are Thai and supposed to be looking out for their constituents that are paying them fees as an organization and all the money lost in revenue for taxes that these short time rentals are not paying their share to the Thai government.

I know from the last story about this allot of TV people were sticking up for the illegal renters and not caring about the hotels and or the government.

The only law that might protect you is one that concerns "zoning". If the building in which you live is not considered a hotel, then the hourly rental of a unit maybe considered illegal.

As for short-time rentals (say a week, a month, etc), that is something that only your Condominium Association can govern; the gov't will not be able to assist you there.

Before you buy into a condominium, which is generally governed by by-laws enforced by the home owners or trusted management company, you need to examine (that is, read) the by-laws. If they are satisfactory, then you use your conscience in acquiring the property. Otherwise, you do not buy.

If there is a breach of the by-laws by a neighbor, then you bring it to the attention of the management (juristic?). If that does not resolve the issue, then you proceed to civil court (and in the meantime, you kick yourself in the a$ for buying a condo). The gov't has no jurisdiction in the use of a property unless it violates a zoning ordinance. In Thailand the concept is probably ignored, because it is a foreign concept. If the property is being used for illegal activity, then the BIB (Boys in Brown) might be interested. If they are involved, then you need to cut your losses.

This is request for advice . I am not offering any.

Q Does Section 17/1 give GUMBALL/NCboy57 any legal support in respect of his plight?

I attach JPEG with a detail of 17/1

Edited April 7, 2011 by Delight

[quiksilva]

Zoning is not applicable. Hotels are rarely excluded from zones within town plans which affect large chunks of the city. The key issue is whether they have/need a hotel license.

Many apartment buildings and serviced apartments face this problem when leasing out space for periods of less than one month, which requires a hotel license. This in turn requires that the property complies with building regulations for hotels.

Although some official flexibility is provided if there are less than I think 40(?) rooms but am not firm on that number it could be 30. So owners of individual units will likely be given more leeway too, so if it is only a few units within a condominium then you may have a tough fight on your hands.