Musicians Arrested

[ollylama]

Warning - careful what you write here or on Facebook, as Facebook conversations are being used as evidence against the charged musicians. Please don't mention any names or opinions that might be damaging to their case.

[uptheos]

That's the last time I sing in a karaoke place and I don't care how short the skirts are!!

[harrry]

Unfortunately Thailand has never been colonized by the western world, they might have had more respect for - and cooperation with foreigners then, and less of that 'this is our private island and we rule' attitude. I'm feeling not welcome here anymore but I did 14 years ago when all my friend were Thai friends and we had lot of fun.

The ThaiVisa photo gallery for this crack down will be a little short this as our main contriburor of photos is nno longer here.

[H2oDunc]

As much as I am against what has happened you have to be having a laugh to try and pass off what these guys were doing as " for fun " A band / musicians playing in a licensed establishment for the entertainment of said places customers isn't for fun.

If they wanted to play for fun they would be doing it at home etc not a bar.

An open mike night where actual customers take turns to sing / play is a totally different matter the same as a karaoke night.

As said I would rather they hadn't been lifted but it appears the tea money didn't hit the right pockets this month. I very much doubt it will end up in court.

Plus bragging about things on Facebook and Twitter isn't the brightest thing to do when what you are doing is technically illegal now is it ?

[ericthai]

have witnessed first hand, the same sad experience in phuket, but as someone has already stated whether its for fun, free etc, it's just not worth the risk, i guess technically if you were to start painting your house, inside or out, the same scenario applies, you're depriving thais work, so where do you draw the line, immigration should stipulate what you can and can't do under current thai law, then it's up to us to consider the risks.

Painting YOUR OWN house would not be a problem. Painting someone else's house (even for free) would be a violation. Definition:

“ Work ” means to engage in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefits.

http://eng.mol.go.th/doe_service01.html

How can a definition of a word be given, by including the word in the definition

Welcome to the LOS. In fairness, it is a translation and therefore perhaps in the original Thai the word 'work' is not part of the definition. Benefit of the doubt for I do not know.

But your explanation says the person would not be in trouble for painting their own house, this is wrong as they would be exerting energy and they would even be receiving a benefit of the house getting painted which if in really bad shape would increase the value of the house. So this could be considered "work" as definition anything with or without benefit that exerts energy is work, so reading emails or using the computer can be considered "work".. So Im sorry to say the example of painting you own house is incorrect this is still considered "work".

[searcher22]

I feel sorry for the musicians but I think the Thai authorities are within their rights. It's the "slippery slope" argument. If you allow these musicians to play, pretty soon you'll have 'just for fun' bands playing across the city, joined by cooks, sewers, doll makers, sculptors, etc...all indulging in their favourite hobby.

[SadieMBeagle]

As much as I am against what has happened you have to be having a laugh to try and pass off what these guys were doing as " for fun " A band / musicians playing in a licensed establishment for the entertainment of said places customers isn't for fun.

If they wanted to play for fun they would be doing it at home etc not a bar.

An open mike night where actual customers take turns to sing / play is a totally different matter the same as a karaoke night.

As said I would rather they hadn't been lifted but it appears the tea money didn't hit the right pockets this month. I very much doubt it will end up in court.

"isn't for fun"? I guess you, sir, are not a musician? They jam together for fun. People in the audience enjoying their art is part of the fun. If you read the posts above, you will see that the musicians didn't get paid, not even in free drinks or other methods of payment. I'm just sayin'...

[lannarebirth]

So if you can get arrested for playing music with friends even without remuneration, does the same apply to say sports? Could you be arrested for playing basketball with friends if others are watching?

[iSabai]

That's the last time I sing in a karaoke place and I don't care how short the skirts are!!

I'm guessing there are many karaoke places, and their customers, that are grateful to hear this bit of news!

[uptheos]

As much as I am against what has happened you have to be having a laugh to try and pass off what these guys were doing as " for fun " A band / musicians playing in a licensed establishment for the entertainment of said places customers isn't for fun.

If they wanted to play for fun they would be doing it at home etc not a bar.

An open mike night where actual customers take turns to sing / play is a totally different matter the same as a karaoke night.

As said I would rather they hadn't been lifted but it appears the tea money didn't hit the right pockets this month. I very much doubt it will end up in court.

"isn't for fun"? I guess you, sir, are not a musician? They jam together for fun. People in the audience enjoying their art is part of the fun. If you read the posts above, you will see that the musicians didn't get paid, not even in free drinks or other methods of payment. I'm just sayin'...

Not only do musician's jam for fun but it's an integral part of maintaining their skills and the audience appreciation is enough.

[searcher22]

So if you can get arrested for playing music with friends even without remuneration, does the same apply to say sports? Could you be arrested for playing basketball with friends if others are watching?

It depends where you play basketball. The musicians are playing in a commercial venue. It may put other bars in the area at a competitive disadvantage, especially if the musicians are good. If you play basketball in the park, no problem. If you play at the 700 stadium, and people are expected to pay an entry fee or buy a drink to see you play, then yes you'd be breaking the law.

[naboo]

I think the main issue with the Guitarman is that the foreigners playing 'for fun' are taking the place of Thai bands who could play for money, thus having an effect on Thai job opportunities. Playing basketball would only be an offence, IMHO, if people were paying to watch.

Painting your own house is a personal thing and it would only become a 'working' activity if you were buying then refurbishing and selling properties for profit in the same way buying and selling your personal car is not considered a business activity in the UK, but once you get into doing it for profit it becomes considered a business - there's a line and the authorities decide where it is drawn.

[doppa]

as we all know, were only guests in this country, and if they want us out, they will use any reason that's handy, regardless whether it's law.

they don't give 2 jots what the rest of the world thinks or cares, be careful.

[uptheos]

as we all know, were only guests in this country, and if they want us out, they will use any reason that's handy, regardless whether it's law.

they don't give 2 jots what the rest of the world thinks or cares, be careful.

When 'guests' come to my house I treat them with courtesy.

When uninvited people come around, I probably treat them like........

[IanForbes]

Too bad the bar owner didn't realize it was illegal to have fun and enjoy yourself in Chiang Mai.

[jackr]

The musicians are playing in a commercial venue. It may put other bars in the area at a competitive disadvantage...

I think the main issue with the Guitarman is that the foreigners playing 'for fun' are taking the place of Thai bands who could play for money...

[AndersSN]

as we all know, were only guests in this country, and if they want us out, they will use any reason that's handy, regardless whether it's law.

they don't give 2 jots what the rest of the world thinks or cares, be careful.

When 'guests' come to my house I treat them with courtesy.

When uninvited people come around, I probably treat them like........

An if your 'guests' take a shit in your couch or come on to your wife?

[Semper]

have witnessed first hand, the same sad experience in phuket, but as someone has already stated whether its for fun, free etc, it's just not worth the risk, i guess technically if you were to start painting your house, inside or out, the same scenario applies, you're depriving thais work, so where do you draw the line, immigration should stipulate what you can and can't do under current thai law, then it's up to us to consider the risks.

Painting YOUR OWN house would not be a problem. Painting someone else's house (even for free) would be a violation. Definition:

“ Work ” means to engage in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefits.

http://eng.mol.go.th..._service01.html

As in giving advises to members on this forum.

[MamaSan]

Anybody who opens with "Tie Me Down Kangaroo Sport" really should be investigated on a number of levels - nothing personal, mind...

[bazmlb]

Some posts containing false information and defamation have been removed due to forum rules.

[venturalaw]

Painting YOUR OWN house would not be a problem. Painting someone else's house (even for free) would be a violation. Definition:

“ Work ” means to engage in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefits.

http://eng.mol.go.th/doe_service01.html

How can a definition of a word be given, by including the word in the definition

Welcome to the LOS. In fairness, it is a translation and therefore perhaps in the original Thai the word 'work' is not part of the definition. Benefit of the doubt for I do not know.

But your explanation says the person would not be in trouble for painting their own house, this is wrong as they would be exerting energy and they would even be receiving a benefit of the house getting painted which if in really bad shape would increase the value of the house. So this could be considered "work" as definition anything with or without benefit that exerts energy is work, so reading emails or using the computer can be considered "work".. So Im sorry to say the example of painting you own house is incorrect this is still considered "work".

It is axiomatic that work in this context is to benefit another, be it a person, persons or an entity/entities. By your definition, getting out of bed in the morning, bathing, dressing, etc. (which may require effort depending upon how much fun one experienced the previous evening) would come under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Labor. Clearly that is not the case.

[Theoutsider]

They broke the law.

[Johpa]

"gin-khao" ?

It's known as "kin muang" in the local vernacular, an activity favored by politicians as well as police officials. (sorry, but spelling it "gin" will lead you to bad pronunciation.

[blabla1]

i think we should be more than grateful we've come this far, we new it was coming, fact is we cannot work here thats the law regaurdless how stupid or unfair it is, we cannot earn money here without the right visa, if u are retired and want to play, u cannot do it in a public business where money is generated, sad but thems the facts peoples,seeing my mates in jail was not a great thing, but it could have been any one of us, they fired a cannonball port side, let's take heed before they sink the boat!

[Konini]

I spoke to one of those involved today, can't remember if he said they all got fined 10,000 or 40,000, and it was cleaned up very quickly (and officially at the police station). Bar owner arrested to, but not sure if he was also fined. Seems as though he may not have been paying his tea money.

[venturalaw]

i think we should be more than grateful we've come this far, we new it was coming, fact is we cannot work here thats the law regaurdless how stupid or unfair it is, we cannot earn money here without the right visa, if u are retired and want to play, u cannot do it in a public business where money is generated, sad but thems the facts peoples,seeing my mates in jail was not a great thing, but it could have been any one of us, they fired a cannonball port side, let's take heed before they sink the boat!

Wise words. I wish your friends all the best. Really a bad break.

[millwall_fan]

One of the more sinister aspects of this case is that the BiB found that one of the foreigners they cracked down on had publicly announced his musical appointments on Facebook - apparantly the BiB arrived at GM with copies of his Facebook pages. He was also an overstayer. The rules on overstaying now involve a spell in jail if the overstay is more than 42 days (i gather it was several months) and there has always been the possiblity of a custodial sentence for working without a work permit - although he might have got away with that if his visa had been in order.

I'd love to have live music at my place but the choices are either to run these kind of risks with Farangs or to employ Thai musicians to murder English songs - also its not that easy to get Thais to play when YOU want them to - anyone half decent (and I mean only half decent) wants a weekly slot or they're not interested - the trouble with that is that their usually limited repertoires mean the same 'set' every week. So I stick to recorded

music - which as many of you will know has its own problems

I feel desperately sorry for all concerned. The idea that foreigners can't play unpaid music in public because some local with a beat up guitar thinks he can do as well is terrible and the idea that the police hack into peoples Facebook accounts and use their posts as evidence is utterley beneath contempt.

I'm a big fan ot Thai music from classical to Looktung to pop, and some Thai muscians are very talented - that talent rarely shines through when they attempt Western music.

Let's hope that sometime in the future this law is changed. Until then, stick to singing in the bath. I do and my 3 year old loves it!!!

I posted this earlier with some misleading info about neighbouring establishments. I apologise that it seems this part of the information was out of date.

[Gonzo the Face]

One of the more sinister aspects of this case is that the BiB found that one of the foreigners they cracked down on had publicly announced his musical appointments on Facebook - apparantly the BiB arrived at GM with copies of his Facebook pages. He was also an overstayer. The rules on overstaying now involve a spell in jail if the overstay is more than 42 days (i gather it was several months) and there has always been the possiblity of a custodial sentence for working without a work permit - although he might have got away with that if his visa had been in order.

I'd love to have live music at my place but the choices are either to run these kind of risks with Farangs or to employ Thai musicians to murder English songs - also its not that easy to get Thais to play when YOU want them to - anyone half decent (and I mean only half decent) wants a weekly slot or they're not interested - the trouble with that is that their usually limited repertoires mean the same 'set' every week. So I stick to recorded

music - which as many of you will know has its own problems

I feel desperately sorry for all concerned. The idea that foreigners can't play unpaid music in public because some local with a beat up guitar thinks he can do as well is terrible and the idea that the police hack into peoples Facebook accounts and use their posts as evidence is utterley beneath contempt.

I'm a big fan ot Thai music from classical to Looktung to pop, and some Thai muscians are very talented - that talent rarely shines through when they attempt Western music.

Let's hope that sometime in the future this law is changed. Until then, stick to singing in the bath. I do and my 3 year old loves it!!!

I posted this earlier with some misleading info about neighbouring establishments. I apologise that it seems this part of the information was out of date.

I feel that I must say this.

With regard to TV and the posts and posters theron.

It takes a pretty special person and a big man to admit, in and on this forum, that they have made a mistake.

You have done so and also made an apology. My hat is off to you..... You are that big man and you have my admiration and respect.

Proud to be your friend

Gonzo

[TacoBoy]

Unfortunately the very few musicians that try to make a few bucks ruin it for the one's that want to do it for fun.

And as some other's posted:

"The musicians are playing in a commercial venue. It may put other bars in the area at a competitive disadvantage..."

"I think the main issue with the (venue name deleted) is that the foreigners playing 'for fun' are taking the place of Thai bands who could play for money..."

Doubt there would have been a problem if there was a local house band and a foreigner joined in to jam for a little bit.

But who knows now

[blabla1]

One has to ask this question,what about the muaythai farangs who fight in the ring,they get paid,win or lose, i have fought and been paid,i know guys have been fighting for years without a permit and get paid, any comments on this??