Musicians Arrested

[ChiangMaiFun]

We on this forum love CM, but there's a million other options for people out there and the reality is that this country isn't overly appealing for most people.

That's true only for those in the high-income bracket. For the rest of us, Thailand is, dare I say, most welcoming (albeit with some irritants!) for those who just want a nice quiet retirement and are not seeking to operate a business or own property.

'most welcoming' might be stretching it a tad? with 90 day reporting, limits on strumming guitars in public and double pricing'?

90-day reporting: A minor inconvenience. Besides, I think we'll all be able to mail in our 90-day report or do it online in the very near future.

Strumming guitars in public: Don't do it in a way that may antagonize local businesses or put Thais at a disadvantage and you'll be okay.

Double-pricing. I've solved that problem...I don't go to these places. Even if they made Thais pay 200 B just like farangs, I'd still feel ripped off, as I don't think it's worth that much anyway. You can probably find equivalent sites that are accessible at no charge, and probably better, since it wouldn't be as touristy.

Jeeze.., another Pseudo Thai - can't you just see it for what it is? yes the outputs outweigh the inputs (or we would not be here) but...

[Yuu_CM]

Ulysses G.

Not sure what you mean "how our countries treats them" re Thai Buddhists?

I don't know about yours, but mine welcomes Thais

Well, I do not think you are from the US, the UK, or OZ.

Maybe you are from New Zealand who used to let Thais in easily and the Thais returned the favor.

When I first came here, citizens of New Zealand could enter Thailand for 90 days with no visa as many times as they liked and other "Westerners" had a hard time getting a long-term visa ay all. I am not sure about the situation now.

I am from Aus and it's VERY easy for Thais there. I've lived amongst and worked withing the Thai community for years, which is big and growing rapidly.

I know you are Irish, and I doubt there's many Thais there. In Australia though, the community is large and treated very, very well. (Which is why most of them stay permanently). Free health care and social security for life, equal legal rights, free school for their kids, relatively easy work visas for students, full legal rights for spouses.........who become Australian citizens after two years of marriage. Even same sex partners are given full legal rights.

http://www.thaioz.com.au/

http://www.atthaitown.com/category/thaiinaus/

[Ulysses G.]

Isn't that only rich Thais? Isn't it very difficult for them to get a visa to go there in the first place?

I had a buddy who worked at the Australian Embassy in Bangkok and he made it sound like a nightmare.

[venturalaw]

Ulysses G.

Not sure what you mean "how our countries treats them" re Thai Buddhists?

I don't know about yours, but mine welcomes Thais

Well, I do not think you are from the US, the UK, or OZ.

Maybe you are from New Zealand who used to let Thais in easily and the Thais returned the favor.

When I first came here, citizens of New Zealand could enter Thailand for 90 days with no visa as many times as they liked and other "Westerners" had a hard time getting a long-term visa ay all. I am not sure about the situation now.

I am from Aus and it's VERY easy for Thais there. I've lived amongst and worked withing the Thai community for years, which is big and growing rapidly.

I know you are Irish, and I doubt there's many Thais there. In Australia though, the community is large and treated very, very well. (Which is why most of them stay permanently). Free health care and social security for life, equal legal rights, free school for their kids, relatively easy work visas for students, full legal rights for spouses.........who become Australian citizens after two years of marriage. Even same sex partners are given full legal rights.

http://www.thaioz.com.au/

http://www.atthaitown.com/category/thaiinaus/

I know of a Thai woman that was able to secure Australian citizenship without being married to an Australian. Just lived with her Australian boyfriend for a few years.

[uptheos]

90-day reporting: A minor inconvenience. Besides, I think we'll all be able to mail in our 90-day report or do it online in the very near future.

Not been here very long eh?

Mailing in the 90 day report has been an option for ages!

Edited March 28, 2011 by uptheos

[Ricardo]

90-day reporting: A minor inconvenience. Besides, I think we'll all be able to mail in our 90-day report or do it online in the very near future.

Unfortunately I've been hearing this, about doing the 90-day report on-line, for several years now, but 'tomorrow never comes' seems to apply !

It would indeed make things easy, and reduce costs for the Thai Immigration, but has the unfortunate side-effect of reducing the work available for Immigration-Police officers to do.

[elektrified]

90-day reporting: A minor inconvenience. Besides, I think we'll all be able to mail in our 90-day report or do it online in the very near future.

Not been here very long eh?

Mailing in the 90 day report has been an option for ages!

I thought that was the case. I don't know why I can never remember that around the time it is due! I also learned the last time I was immigration that you have up until 7 days after the due date to make the 90-day report. I used to worry about getting there right on the due date.

Edited March 28, 2011 by elektrified

[Raindancer]

Ok let's get away from this for a while, does anybody have any knowledge of how some one can legally play here?

Can i form a music tour company and hire myself and others as performers?

How can i apply for a permit to play in my place?any tricks,advice from anyone?

If i get married,can i get a work permit? any info ,please welcome.

Ok let's forget the last one..lol

doh! and I was just starting to write me best man's speech too!

I have sent you a PM.....Hope it sheds some light on your questions.

[Okertes]

If you where a Thai with only a Thai passport you would know how hard it is to get a European UK or USA visa just to as a tourist so your lame idea of punishing the Thais for thier imigration lows will not really work since they already quite being punished.

Think it's time to move on. Got the house up for sale and two good offers to teach, where I don't have to give a pass marks to kids who fail. Sad as I do love this country, but having to report like a criminal to immigration every three months, and being charged 400% more than my Thai wife and kids when we visit a park, is starting to where thin. Eu should apply the same laws to visiting Thai's, then when Mr Abscise next visits, he can have a taste of the discrimination we expats endure every day.

In the UK kids who fail exams, automatically go up to the next year. It's no different in Thailand.

Reporting to Immigration every 3 months is not really a big deal. 20 minutes and you in then out. I certainly don't feel like a criminal.

The last time I visited a national park that has 2-tier pricing was around 6 years ago. I showed my drivers licence and got in for the same price as my wife.

Abscise (Abhisit?) has a British passport, British birth certificate and is British.

If these are your reasons for leaving Thailand, good luck and good bye.

[Yuu_CM]

Isn't that only rich Thais? Isn't it very difficult for them to get a visa to go there in the first place?

I had a buddy who worked at the Australian Embassy in Bangkok and he made it sound like a nightmare.

No. Some rich Thais, yet. Not only the rich though. I know tonnes of working class Thais who live and work there. There does need to be a certain amount of money shown in a bank account, but it's not dramatically high (less than the cost of a car here) and most poorer Thais find a way to rustle up the amount collectively from relatives and friends and then transfer it back / earn it quickly through work. The money only needs to be shown when you apply. Not hard to do.

[AmeriThai]

So what's next? If you play at home to entertain your friends and neighbors, is that considered illegal too? And what about foreign musicians who buy studio recording time? Dare anyone hum in the shower, or sing Happy Birthday at a birthday party?

I was thinking about that. Having musicians jamming at someone's home - it would not be in the support of a financial enterprise, i.e. a bar. If people were invited, brought their own food and beverages to share, I don't think that scenario would be a violation. But let's face it, so often here in the LOS, it's what the police or authorities consider a violation that determines whether a violation has occurred.

Seems like a good point, but it also seems that arresting unpaid jamming musicians is pretty extreme. At best, it would be the owner(s) of the bar who should take the heat, if anyone must, since it's the bar that's making money, not the musicians. The musicians who earned nothing from it (maybe some free beer) could've simply been given a verbal "warning" that they need to apply for a work permit if they have any intention of being paid to play in the future. I agree with you though, that it was the arresting authorities who made the decision, even though it may have been completely unnecessary. You're quite right, TIT.

Regardless, the arrest brings up some areas of concern. For example, suppose a foreigner who is a professional, but does not play at any live events, but has the equipment in their own home to make recordings, but not necessarily recordings to be sold directly in Thailand. Such home recording 'studios' are much more common these days. And then too, as I mentioned, what about musicians who use professional studios in Thailand to, say, cut a demo? Although it's clear the studio is being paid by the musicians, the musicians may most likely intend such a demo as a prospective income-earner. If the musicians who were arrested for playing had paid the bar to allow them to play, then the income earned is still solely on the shoulders of the bar, not the musicians. If a person is not allowed to play for free at such establishments, then what about djs, cds, etc, who play recordings from the West? Would the djs be arrested and any western cds be taken away?

This situation has made me wonder about where to draw the line. A number of years ago, my wife and I threw a huge party in the province of Saraburi. We hired two professional groups of musicians, singers and dancers (all Thai) for the event. We also hired a food catering service for one night, with "donations" of 100 baht per person (invited RSVP guests) for an outdoor sit down dinner and drinks. The next night was open house and free for anyone and everyone, although we also invited local vendors selling food, drinks, novelties, etc., for anyone who wanted some food or drinks. We took in enough to cover the expenses for the entire event. I've thought about the idea of strapping on my guitar, just for fun, if we ever sponsor another similar event in the future. Now, I'm not so sure. We did have 2 or 3 local police on duty just in case anything got a bit on the rowdy side. Just guessing, but if I had gotten up on stage to play with the Thai musicians, I doubt the local authorities would've been the least bit concerned. That said, I'm not so sure about it now. I might talk with them to see if such a thing would be a problem as far as they're concerned. We also know the local dignitaries from the amphur.

I'm sure, as you mentioned, the decision for the musicians at the bar in Chiang Mai, was made by the local arresting authorities for no particular reason other than they could, regardless of whether it was fair and justified or not. It seems to me there must be more to the story than we've heard. Maybe a complaint from a cranky local or drunk that got thown out. I haven't kept up with the whole story about the arrest. Any further information about what happened to the musicians? Were they fined? Visa revoked? Or nothing?

[Loaded]

I just don't get it: musicians were performing in a bar while customers were listening and paying for drinks and some people feel this should be regarded as just jamming privately with friends. They broke Thai labour law and were eventually arrested. Even unpaid work as a volunteer requires a work permit. This is not 'extreme'; this is the law.

[Loaded]

Ok let's get away from this for a while, does anybody have any knowledge of how some one can legally play here?

Can i form a music tour company and hire myself and others as performers?

How can i apply for a permit to play in my place?any tricks,advice from anyone?

If i get married,can i get a work permit? any info ,please welcome.

Ok let's forget the last one..lol

doh! and I was just starting to write me best man's speech too!

I have sent you a PM.....Hope it sheds some light on your questions.

If you get married, you can obtain a non-immigrant O. You can obtain a work permit with a non-immigrant O. However, you will need to meet the requirements and qualifications of immigration for the visa and labour for the work permit.

[Daewoo]

I just don't get it: musicians were performing in a bar while customers were listening and paying for drinks and some people feel this should be regarded as just jamming privately with friends. They broke Thai labour law and were eventually arrested. Even unpaid work as a volunteer requires a work permit. This is not 'extreme'; this is the law.

I'm with loaded. This wasn't just some disorganized 'Jam'. It was a gig the same as any other gig. In fact it was a regular, weekly gig.

The musicians are doing it for the enjoyment of playin to a crowd because they have other income sources, but under Thai law, payment isn't the only criteria that defines work, and it isn't in Australia either.

I find it hard to imagine that any o those involved didn't know that they were breaking the WP requirement.

The method of enforcement (why arrest them rather than just a warning), and the driver (enforcement or payment), are questionable.

Cheers,

Daewoo

[Ashoka]

I don't believe it at all. If very simply explained to the officials they would not have bothered. There are massive immigration violations going on daily, walk into almost any hole in the wall English school and you will find illegal workers, look at most of the eco-projects in Chiang Mai run by people on tourist visas and charging other tourists to stay as well as holding classes. Also a lot of small businesses for example, there is an English couple in my village running an illegal bar.

If immigration truly wanted to crack down on Westerners they could simply take out the black truck and start checking passports for proper visas, I bet they could fill that truck 10 times a day. So, when you say 4 farang musicians were playing at a friends bar who was running a legal business I really doubt that they were arrested unless there is more to the story than that.

If this story is true I will pay for the lawyer.

Why would I lie?

3 are now out.

One has been jailed for visa irregularities

and will be deported at the end of his jail sentence.

If you pm mr with your credit card details I'm sure he'll be very grateful for you paying his legal fees...

David

I would be happy to pay his legal fees for being arrested because he was playing music not because he violated he visa requirement which I can believe.

[pjclark1]

If you where a Thai with only a Thai passport you would know how hard it is to get a European UK or USA visa just to as a tourist so your lame idea of punishing the Thais for thier imigration lows will not really work since they already quite being punished.

This is just not true, If you marry someone from the EU and have their child it is very easy to own land, work and get citizenship in the EU.

I'm pretty sure wealthy Thais have no problems getting tourist VISAs either.

[venturalaw]

I just don't get it: musicians were performing in a bar while customers were listening and paying for drinks and some people feel this should be regarded as just jamming privately with friends. They broke Thai labour law and were eventually arrested. Even unpaid work as a volunteer requires a work permit. This is not 'extreme'; this is the law.

I agree with you Loaded. Yes, it's the law and we choose to live here and therefore should abide by the law. What I feel, as do most, is that for the musicians, a warning would have been more appropriate rather than immediate incarceration. I know of instances where westerners who were caught working in their Thai wife's businesses. They were fined and warned. No jail time. Why not in this case? That's why I believe the actions were harsh.

[elektrified]

If you where a Thai with only a Thai passport you would know how hard it is to get a European UK or USA visa just to as a tourist so your lame idea of punishing the Thais for thier imigration lows will not really work since they already quite being punished.

I'm pretty sure wealthy Thais have no problems getting tourist VISAs either.

Indeed not. When I lived in Europe I met many that came there on vacation. Some were not 'wealthy' but had good paying jobs in Bangkok, some of them working for International Corporations. I've met young people here in Chiang Mai who have been to Europe and the USA on vacation; one of whom is a Nurse at Suan Dok Hospital. She is not 'wealthy'.

[uptheos]

If you where a Thai with only a Thai passport you would know how hard it is to get a European UK or USA visa just to as a tourist so your lame idea of punishing the Thais for thier imigration lows will not really work since they already quite being punished.

I'm pretty sure wealthy Thais have no problems getting tourist VISAs either.

Indeed not. When I lived in Europe I met many that came there on vacation. Some were not 'wealthy' but had good paying jobs in Bangkok, some of them working for International Corporations. I've met young people here in Chiang Mai who have been to Europe and the USA on vacation; one of whom is a Nurse at Suan Dok Hospital. She is not 'wealthy'.

During my time here I have met Thai's who work in steady jobs and have been to several 'western' countries. It seems that once one country issues a visa, then getting one from any of the others is a formality.

[Yuu_CM]

Ok let's get away from this for a while, does anybody have any knowledge of how some one can legally play here?

Can i form a music tour company and hire myself and others as performers?

How can i apply for a permit to play in my place?any tricks,advice from anyone?

If i get married,can i get a work permit? any info ,please welcome.

Ok let's forget the last one..lol

doh! and I was just starting to write me best man's speech too!

I have sent you a PM.....Hope it sheds some light on your questions.

If you get married, you can obtain a non-immigrant O. You can obtain a work permit with a non-immigrant O. However, you will need to meet the requirements and qualifications of immigration for the visa and labour for the work permit.

Yes, if you get married you can work..............as a teacher and that's pretty much it.

You'll need a degree and some sort of post grad teaching qualification.

Personally, I am qualified as a teacher back home anyway.

However, the fella out there who doesn't have a degree / is an electrician back home / drives a bus back home / is a musician back home / is a chef back home / is an artist back home etc etc etc is basically stuffed. There's absolutely no option for him to work here. People will say "so what", and "stay in the UK/ AUS/ USA etc", but surely a spouse should be entitled to live with their partner wherver they chose. What if his wife has sick parents who need her here with them? What if they have a child who they want to raise in this culture? The laws here esentially say "you can't live here with your wife and you are not allowed to work".

As stated, I am a teacher back home anyway. However, unless I am missing something here, it seems to me that teaching is basically the ONLY thing we are allowed to do (outside of invest in a business) and that people who aren't teachers basically aren't allowed to do anything.

This in turn forces people into teaching who don't want to do it / are not teachers. I don't see how that's in any way a good thing for anyone.

Edited March 29, 2011 by Yuu_CM

[ChiangMaiFun]

what about the many internet (farang) workers you meet? working from home but on a business which is not based in Thailand? isn't that still. technically, working?

[Yuu_CM]

what about the many internet (farang) workers you meet? working from home but on a business which is not based in Thailand? isn't that still, technically, working?

Yes, technically, they are all breaking the law.

[CMSteve]

It doesn't matter how many times you ask, its still the same answer.

Yes, that is technically working and not legal.

what about the many internet (farang) workers you meet? working from home but on a business which is not based in Thailand? isn't that still, technically, working?

Edited March 29, 2011 by CMSteve

[CMSteve]

You can work only with a WP. regardless of being married or not, and many times regardless of true qualifications.

Even teachers need to have a work permit to work legally.

.

Yes, if you get married you can work..............as a teacher and that's pretty much it.

You'll need a degree and some sort of post grad teaching qualification.

Personally, I am qualified as a teacher back home anyway.

However, the fella out there who doesn't have a degree / is an electrician back home / drives a bus back home / is a musician back home / is a chef back home / is an artist back home etc etc etc is basically stuffed. There's absolutely no option for him to work here. People will say "so what", and "stay in the UK/ AUS/ USA etc", but surely a spouse should be entitled to live with their partner wherver they chose. What if his wife has sick parents who need her here with them? What if they have a child who they want to raise in this culture? The laws here esentially say "you can't live here with your wife and you are not allowed to work".

As stated, I am a teacher back home anyway. However, unless I am missing something here, it seems to me that teaching is basically the ONLY thing we are allowed to do (outside of invest in a business) and that people who aren't teachers basically aren't allowed to do anything.

This in turn forces people into teaching who don't want to do it / are not teachers. I don't see how that's in any way a good thing for anyone.

[bangkokcitylimits]

what about the many internet (farang) workers you meet? working from home but on a business which is not based in Thailand? isn't that still. technically, working?

Luckily the immigration dept. does not work together yet with the ministry of information (spy on ISP data to see who spend many hours on Ebay etc.)

[Yuu_CM]

Yes, I am aware of that.

My point is that a qualified teacher can go elsewhere to work. (As many do)

A married man whose wife / family wants to be here or has to be here..............he can't go elsewhere.

So, if he's not a teacher, what's he supposed to do?

Too many of these guys are effectively 'forced' into teaching as it's literally the only thing allowed. Being forced to do something doesn't help anyone.

You can work only with a WP. regardless of being married or not, and many times regardless of true qualifications.

Even teachers need to have a work permit to work legally.

.

Yes, if you get married you can work..............as a teacher and that's pretty much it.

You'll need a degree and some sort of post grad teaching qualification.

Personally, I am qualified as a teacher back home anyway.

However, the fella out there who doesn't have a degree / is an electrician back home / drives a bus back home / is a musician back home / is a chef back home / is an artist back home etc etc etc is basically stuffed. There's absolutely no option for him to work here. People will say "so what", and "stay in the UK/ AUS/ USA etc", but surely a spouse should be entitled to live with their partner wherver they chose. What if his wife has sick parents who need her here with them? What if they have a child who they want to raise in this culture? The laws here esentially say "you can't live here with your wife and you are not allowed to work".

As stated, I am a teacher back home anyway. However, unless I am missing something here, it seems to me that teaching is basically the ONLY thing we are allowed to do (outside of invest in a business) and that people who aren't teachers basically aren't allowed to do anything.

This in turn forces people into teaching who don't want to do it / are not teachers. I don't see how that's in any way a good thing for anyone.

[SadieMBeagle]

Yes, if you get married you can work..............as a teacher and that's pretty much it.

However, the fella out there who doesn't have a degree / is an electrician back home / drives a bus back home / is a musician back home / is a chef back home / is an artist back home etc etc etc is basically stuffed. There's absolutely no option for him to work here. People will say "so what", and "stay in the UK/ AUS/ USA etc", but surely a spouse should be entitled to live with their partner wherver they chose. What if his wife has sick parents who need her here with them? What if they have a child who they want to raise in this culture? The laws here esentially say "you can't live here with your wife and you are not allowed to work".

Actually, this is 100% not true. I work at a local Thai company, doing things that a Thai is unable to do; namely, write in native-tongue English when it is needed. I also have a few other farang coworkers, although most of the employees are Thai. And I have quite a few expat friends in Chiang Mai, some who are teachers, but many who are gainfully employed in other companies and industries around town. I guess we are all on the right side of the law, as we all have non-imm B visas and work permits.

Certainly, teaching is the easiest work to get here. But look around a little more, and you will see there are lots of other legal jobs besides teaching.

Now, to get back to the topic at hand...I think the main difference of opinion here is between the posters who see jamming musicians as "working," and posters (like me) who see it as "art." I have no idea what the Thai government rules are surrounding art. Maybe it's just like work here. My, that would be sad.

And what about that other well known, quite awesome bar/club that is just inside the moat, where farang and Thai musicians jam together almost every night of the week (I don't want to type the name, lest the po-po scamper down there and arrest all present after reading this)? Have they ever been busted? if not, why not? is it because the owner is Thai? Or is the recent incident because of a "flexing of muscles," as some here have suggested? It's quite curious.

[surayu]

Luckily the immigration dept. does not work together yet with the ministry of information (spy on ISP data to see who spend many hours on Ebay etc.)

Well, this latest arrest is mentioning the police looking into the personal FaceBook account of one of the arrested people, maybe they are already at it? and whom remember the huge amount of cash been spent to create that great firewall, then the big boss in charge claimed it was useless? so maybe they are re-employing all the staff in a different and more profitable way....

[Loaded]

...Now, to get back to the topic at hand...I think the main difference of opinion here is between the posters who see jamming musicians as "working," and posters (like me) who see it as "art." I have no idea what the Thai government rules are surrounding art. Maybe it's just like work here. My, that would be sad...

It's irrelevant what posters think. Immigration arrested them. It's Immigration's opinion that's relevant.

[SadieMBeagle]

...Now, to get back to the topic at hand...I think the main difference of opinion here is between the posters who see jamming musicians as "working," and posters (like me) who see it as "art." I have no idea what the Thai government rules are surrounding art. Maybe it's just like work here. My, that would be sad...

It's irrelevant what posters think. Immigration arrested them. It's Immigration's opinion that's relevant.

Then why was this thread launched? Why are you commenting?? You apparently think your opinion is relevant...and so do I... So?