Notarized Letter From Us Embassy Stating Income

[bwillis]

Went to immigration at Chaengwattana yesterday. Tried using the US Embassy notorized letter to justify income for 1 year extension. They did not accept it carte blanch...wanted proof of income, which I have, but unfortunately, the money is transferred monthly into my Singapore bank account and I draw from there to Thailand - all which I showed in statements. They didn't accept that...So, plan B got a 60 day extension and I'll top up my Kasakorn account here with 400K needed...Was told that they are specifically looking at all such (American) cases now and will require further proof of income as they are aware the US Embassy does not require anything...

As an aside, the (female) officer was blatantly rude, making us wait 5-10 minutes while she carried on a conversation with her co-worker about her new gold bracelet...No 'hello', no acknowledgment that we were sitting at her desk. Then picked up the papers without even looking at us, turned her back and continued talking with her friend...No direct verbal rudeness other than that, and she was otherwise 'professional', but my wife was none too pleased and said she wished we were back in Singapore...We're both middle aged and my wife is a licensed stockbroker here...

[lopburi3]

This was a first time application from previous posts? Were you able to show any Thai bank account information? That seems to be the normal asking when they want more than the letter to help prove you have something available in country to live on.

[bwillis]

This was a first time application from previous posts? Were you able to show any Thai bank account information? That seems to be the normal asking when they want more than the letter to help prove you have something available in country to live on.

Yes, this was my first time to get an extension after getting a 90 day non-imm O in Singapore in January. I do have an account here and kept over 400K in it for last 5 months. Then I needed some money fast and drew down to 380K two weeks ago, thinking I could just use the letter from the embassy...They said, "Here's 60 days, top up your local account to 400K for 2 months and come back." Had my book with me showing 380K, and copy of my Thai stock brokerage account in my name with sufficient funds, but that wasn't good enough. The lady said it was the boss upstairs who was pushing this strict requirement (400K rule). I didn't complain - immigration rules in US must be a nightmare...

A rule's a rule...at immigration, anyway. Not seemingly anywhere else in Thailand.

[InterestedObserver]

A rule's a rule...at immigration, anyway. Not seemingly anywhere else in Thailand.

The rule is 40k baht income per month or 400k baht in a Thai bank for 2 months for a 1 year extension of stay based on marriage. Seems BKK immigration doesn't like the US Embassy notarized income affidavit anymore.

[lanny]

I guess it depends on the individual officer. I went out to Chaeng Wattana about 10 days ago. The male immigration officer took me in, out of order, because he saw me waiting in a wheelchair. Vere courteous and friendly, even offered to arm wrestle once. I had all my documents ready (application, embassy letter, letter from the bank, copy of bank book, copies of passport pages) and we were out within 10 or 15 minutes, including waiting time. We were back home within about 2 hours of starting out.

[vont]

I guess it depends on the individual officer. I went out to Chaeng Wattana about 10 days ago. The male immigration officer took me in, out of order, because he saw me waiting in a wheelchair. Vere courteous and friendly, even offered to arm wrestle once. I had all my documents ready (application, embassy letter, letter from the bank, copy of bank book, copies of passport pages) and we were out within 10 or 15 minutes, including waiting time. We were back home within about 2 hours of starting out.

And didn't I clearly hear you bid farewell and said a big thank you to that out of line immi officer who expedited your sufferings? LOL

[Jingthing]

.Was told that they are specifically looking at all such (American) cases now and will require further proof of income as they are aware the US Embassy does not require anything...

If this is true, that's rather big news. It was already known that immigration is aware of the US embassy's policies, and some reports of checking for additional proof behind the letter, but this I think is the first report here of an officer saying there is a definite change in policy for all Americans.

Other Americans using embassy letters, please report on your experiences at different offices please.

[retiredusn]

No problems at all at Pong Nam Ron, looks like a one person problem not a new rule.........

[Jingthing]

No problems at all at Pong Nam Ron, looks like a one person problem not a new rule.........

People, if reporting on this, please give the approx date, as the report this was a NEW policy. I am also skeptical; that's why asking for reports. Indeed, could be one big office, one officer, or one officer having a bad hair day. Unless lots of people share info about this about very recent reports moving forward, we won't have much of a clue.

It could be weeks or months to get enough recent reports to really draw any conclusions. Maybe eventually worth a dedicated thread just for these kinds of reports? Or will this thread do that?

Edited March 25, 2011 by Jingthing

[Mrjlh]

I guess it depends on the individual officer. I went out to Chaeng Wattana about 10 days ago. The male immigration officer took me in, out of order, because he saw me waiting in a wheelchair. Vere courteous and friendly, even offered to arm wrestle once. I had all my documents ready (application, embassy letter, letter from the bank, copy of bank book, copies of passport pages) and we were out within 10 or 15 minutes, including waiting time. We were back home within about 2 hours of starting out.

And didn't I clearly hear you bid farewell and said a big thank you to that out of line immi officer who expedited your sufferings? LOL

After forgetting to get my re-entry renewed before leaving LOS the last time (my bad), I'm going through the trouble of getting my "O-A Ret" over again and I'm going to make a report "after" as to how it all went when it is all done next month. But in getting the 90 day "O" Visa they want an Embassy letter of Income. When presenting the letter I as only asked what I showed the Embassy for proof and told her my Soc Sec statment but I didn't have it with me at he time. She accepted my word and that was it. So they can ask for proof. For my Retirement Visa I'll need a new letter plus a bank letter of funds when I go back in. In my case my income is now on the cuspid do to Baht inflation, so I suggest all you to watch the exchange rate carefully.

My "O" expires May 9th and the question I now have is, I believe the 30 days before it expires is on Saturday 9th of April, so can I go in next week or wait one more week? I'm not worried about VISA issue dates or expiration dates I just want it renewed. With upcoming bills, I'll just have more money in the bank if I go earlier that's all.

[powderpuff]

Sounds like 11 April is your best bet.

[Mrjlh]

Sounds like 11 April is your best bet.

The specific wording I was told was 30 days "before" it expires. So would Firday the 8th or before qualify?

[TacoBoy]

I don't see how a W2 or other "pieces of paper" can truly guarantee true income.

Those "pieces of paper" are really meaningless in comparison to an "offical certified letter of income verification" from any Embassy.

In reality, supporting documents presented by anyone to immigration other than those originals that are truly certified and notarised by the issuer are not a true guarantee of income either.

Immigration can ask for whatever they want, but does not mean those documents really meet the test either.

Edited March 26, 2011 by TacoBoy

[vont]

I don't see how a W2 or other "pieces of paper" can truly guarantee true income.

Those "pieces of paper" are really meaningless in comparison to an "offical certified letter of income verification" from any Embassy.

In reality, supporting documents presented by anyone to immigration other than those originals that are truly certified and notarised by the issuer are not a true guarantee of income either.

Immigration can ask for whatever they want, but does not mean those documents really meet the test either.

Perhaps, you also are aware of the fact that each certified copy, notarized copy which required additional time, with the exception of certifiable copy for Social Security Office, as far as I recall, would cost some pretty dollars from applicant each time.

The cost seems to vary depending on what it is that an applicant desires. Better check with the embassy website though.

Whatever the status of those income statement that used to be accepted by the Thai immig, I for one was mighty happy that the consulate would help out its citizen.

It is becoming an additional pain, when the Thai immig requires such additional doc. Another 30-50 usd expenditure for obtaining an extension.

In ref to the W2, I have yet to see a fraudulent copy issued by the SS deprt. If ever, a W2 is required, so be it but then we really have to plan ahead and apply way early in order to obtain a copy for such limited application.

Now that we are on the SS office and personnel matter, I am also forever impressed and indebted to those hard working people willing to go several extra miles to assist my application, even though that was many many moons ago.

I salute you all at that ever wonderful Social Security Office, you make our life overseas plentiful more tolerable and enjoyable as well. :jap: :jap: :jap:

Edited March 26, 2011 by vont

[TacoBoy]

My point was only to infer that if a person has a letter of income verification from their Embassy, that letter is an offical certified document and is not just a "piece of paper" that can be fudged with.

A paper trail, may not be what it appears unless cerified or notarised by the issuer.

My reply is in response to those that doubt the validity of a letter from a US Embassy and say the letter is meaningless.

A non truthful person could "show pieces" of paper to prove income, but that does not mean the papers are in fact true.

Just sayin'

Income statements are usually only verifiable within the country they were issued from by a checks and balances system for Tax purposes.

Other than that, a W2 or income statement for other purposes could be generated to show income not there. It is only paper.

That is probably why many times an Embassy does not want to waste time going thru paperwork, and your swearing to truthfullness means a lot more and is more enforceable than a "piece of paper".

Edited March 26, 2011 by TacoBoy

[BngkkB]

I went on Thursday the 24th of March for a One Year extension. When I presented the US Embassy letter of Income the official asked for a copy of my Thai Bank Book. I explained I did not bring it with me as the year before they refused that as proof and demanded the letter from the US Embassy. The official explained to me that they are now also requiring a copy of a Thai Bank Book. I asked if I could get a Statement from my Bank Branch downstairs and she agreed. I got a statement of my Thai Bank activity for the last 6 months. She went over the deposits pretty carefully before sending me to the second desk to hand in all my paperwork.

At the second desk, the lady official there also examined the Bank Statement more carefully then any other paperwork. Once she was satisfied she initialled the stamp in my passport and told me to come back in about a month for the year extension stamp.

The first Immigration officer told me that she was spending most of her time now a days explaining the new change to people as it was not in print anywhere. She did not tell me if I could supply only the Bank Statement instead of the Embassy letter. But I had a feeling they were requiring both. The Thai Bank statement verifing the letter from the Embassy.

Hope this helps.

[Jingthing]

I went on Thursday the 24th of March for a One Year extension. When I presented the US Embassy letter of Income the official asked for a copy of my Thai Bank Book. I explained I did not bring it with me as the year before they refused that as proof and demanded the letter from the US Embassy. The official explained to me that they are now also requiring a copy of a Thai Bank Book. I asked if I could get a Statement from my Bank Branch downstairs and she agreed. I got a statement of my Thai Bank activity for the last 6 months. She went over the deposits pretty carefully before sending me to the second desk to hand in all my paperwork.

At the second desk, the lady official there also examined the Bank Statement more carefully then any other paperwork. Once she was satisfied she initialled the stamp in my passport and told me to come back in about a month for the year extension stamp.

The first Immigration officer told me that she was spending most of her time now a days explaining the new change to people as it was not in print anywhere. She did not tell me if I could supply only the Bank Statement instead of the Embassy letter. But I had a feeling they were requiring both. The Thai Bank statement verifing the letter from the Embassy.

Hope this helps.

Extension based on retirement or extension based on mariage?

If retirement, are you saying you transfer in the exact amount stated in your income letter to your Thai bank monthly?

It sure would be nice if immigration issued a press release to explain this officially themselves, instead of making us read tea leaves!

Edited March 26, 2011 by Jingthing

[PoorSucker]

OK, I'm assuming you are talking about a retirement extension and the embassy income letter 65K per month or greater, correct?

Since he got a one month under consideration, he has extension based on marriage.

[Jingthing]

OK, I'm assuming you are talking about a retirement extension and the embassy income letter 65K per month or greater, correct?

Since he got a one month under consideration, he has extension based on marriage.

Aren't you talking about the OP?

I am talking about BngkkB.

It's an important distinction. I don't want retirees to assume that they are required to transfer in the full amount of income stated in their embassy letter and/or to match it monthly, because that is NOT required. Unless there has been a very big policy change, in which case, immigration needs to TELL US OFFICIALLY.

Also when making reports on this topic, please specify retirement or marriage extension. We'll get to the bottom of this someday. (Or we won't.)

Edited March 26, 2011 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

My point was only to infer that if a person has a letter of income verification from their Embassy, that letter is an offical certified document and is not just a "piece of paper" that can be fudged with.

A paper trail, may not be what it appears unless cerified or notarised by the issuer.

My reply is in response to those that doubt the validity of a letter from a US Embassy and say the letter is meaningless.

A non truthful person could "show pieces" of paper to prove income, but that does not mean the papers are in fact true.

Just sayin'

Income statements are usually only verifiable within the country they were issued from by a checks and balances system for Tax purposes.

Other than that, a W2 or income statement for other purposes could be generated to show income not there. It is only paper.

That is probably why many times an Embassy does not want to waste time going thru paperwork, and your swearing to truthfullness means a lot more and is more enforceable than a "piece of paper".

This is Thailand. The "law" is what the Thai immigration officer demands of you on your date of application. An embassy letter is official, but supporting paperwork is more info which they have every right to ask for, that's nothing new. A policy change demanding additional supporting info of all Americans would be new. I don't think this is a question about whether the supporting documents to the embassy letter are "perfect" proof or not, or whether people could fake those documents or not (clearly a crime). What most people are interested in here is what they actually need (what level of "proof" that will be acceptable) in real life to get their applications approved ... CURRENTLY.

The lines of argument you are presenting may be interesting to some, but really, they are RELEVANT mainly to Thai immigration officers who are deciding what to accept, what not to accept as proof. Maybe you can send them a memo -- the embassy letter is the only official "proof" you need. The letter is best! (Good luck with that.)

Edited March 26, 2011 by Jingthing

[TacoBoy]

Here is the list of required and acceptable documents required by Thai Immigration per their website. The proof and evidence of income is a certified letter from the applicant's embassy in Thailand.

Income verification is cut and dry that income is proved by the letter from the applicant's embassy in thailand, just as the requirment of money in a thai bank with an updated passbook and a certified letter from the bank to satisfy the money in a thai bank test.

This is the law and the rule. Don't try to read more into it or because an official asks for more documentation. This is the current rule and test of proof.

http://www.immigrati...004/en/base.php

List of documents for extension of stay in case of Retirement

1. Application Form ( TM 7) with one photograph (size 4x6 cm.)
2. Passport and its photocopy with certified true copy by the alien
3. Application fee: 1,900 Baht
4. Documents required are as follows;
   • The account deposit with the bank in Thailand of not less than 800,000 Baht.
     The proof of such evidence is the updated bank passbook with the certified letter from the bank showing the money in the account of not less than 800,000 Baht which has been deposited in the account for the previous 3 months. OR
   • Income from pension/social welfare of not less than 65,000 Baht per month.
     The proof of such evidence is a letter from the applicant's Embassy or Consulate in Thailand to certify that the applicant receives pension or other income of not less than 65,000 Baht per month. OR
   • A combination of the account deposite in the bank plus income (from pension or other source per yearX witha combined total of not less than 800,000 Baht.

Edited March 26, 2011 by TacoBoy

[Jingthing]

Thanks for that. Official written rules are great as a starting point. Here on this forum, we go BEYOND that.

We have had reports now for years of SOME applicants being asked for supporting documentation to back up the claims in their embassy letters. Again, it has yet to be fully determined here whether there really is any POLICY ENFORCEMENT CHANGE going on about providing more info to verify income letters for Americans, and if so, how wide is the change. Bangkok only? Nationwide? Some offices (which)? For retirement and marriage?

On the other hand, based on more than one report of people being TOLD there is a policy change, I reckon there is a good chance a real change is happening at at least one office. So personally, I would rate this info about changes as above the rumor category. Definitely important and credible enough to watch it and continue to ask for detailed current reports.

Or better yet, can one of our gurus here who has connections with immigration officials, ASK them for a statement about this?

Edited March 26, 2011 by Jingthing

[TacoBoy]

Rumors are exactly that ! Rumors.

No need to be bringing any attention to expats by immigration. They can do that on their own without saying someone does this, or someone does that. Let it be.

There has been no offical immigration policy change posted nor a change by the thai foreign ministry or any other offical thai governmental agency relating to visa's and requirements that anyone knows about.

Officers can ask for whateever they want, but that does not mean they're correct.

If asked either present proof, ask for a superior and refer to the official rule, or consult a local attorney.

Edited March 26, 2011 by TacoBoy

[lovelomsak]

I amnot American but neither am I thai so I do the 1 year extension also. I have been leaving 800,000 in the bank for years and also getting the embassy letter. If immigration looked at my bank book photocopy they would see same money in there for years no movement. I have the embassy letter to show my income overseas. I used atm to bring all my money to Thailand. I saved all the atm slips one year incase immigration wished to verify how much I bring over in a year. 3/4 of the slips had faded so bad the amounts were unreadable. For someone like me even depositing the amounts into the bank after atm withdrawal doesnot show where the money came from. So it appears that even someone like me could have problems now.

[Jingthing]

There has been no offical immigration policy change nor a change by the thai foreign ministry or any othr offical thai governmental agency relating to visa's and requirements that anyone knows about.

Officers can ask for whateever they want, but that does not mean they're correct.

If asked either present proof, ask for a superior and refer to the official rule, or consult a local attorney.

Are you a lawyer? Because you talk like one.

Experienced applicants here, when the immigration officer says jump, you say how high with a smile.

My view is that we are in a KOW TOW situation here, foreign applicant to Thai immigration police official.

The goal is to get the application approved. If they ask for more info, you give it to them, you don't start a federal case and make an enemy. If officers are telling people there is a POLICY CHANGE in their office, you try to learn about it and comply with it. If this is about Americans only, this policy change is never going to make it into a global rules document anyway.

I agree there are some cases where people are so wronged by immigration officials, that is can be advisable to complain, go higher, etc. But I think that should be used with tact and only when there isn't a better choice. If they ask for more, and you can provide it (whether they tell you this is an official enforcement policy change or not), I think challenging them that they don't know the official rules is total folly.

We've had this kind of philosophy argument before. You think you're right, I think I'm right, so another agree to disagree. Real life people wanting application approvals can decide for themselves what is right for them.

I might also add, any applicants being asked for more info than the letter that DO challenge immigration about their need for this information (that it's not in the official rules so you don't need to cooperate with the policeman), please report on what happens after that. Should be very interesting to hear about.

Edited March 26, 2011 by Jingthing

[jazzbo]

Why mess around with an attorney? I remember some gent on this Forum -- if denied entry into Thailand -- intended to read to the offending IMM Officer from The UN Declaration of Human Rights:

Article 13.

• (1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.

I remember providing him a link to the UN Declaration in Thai script:

http://www.ohchr.org...aspx?LangID=thj

Edited March 26, 2011 by jazzbo

[Jingthing]

I amnot American but neither am I thai so I do the 1 year extension also. I have been leaving 800,000 in the bank for years and also getting the embassy letter. If immigration looked at my bank book photocopy they would see same money in there for years no movement. I have the embassy letter to show my income overseas. I used atm to bring all my money to Thailand. I saved all the atm slips one year incase immigration wished to verify how much I bring over in a year. 3/4 of the slips had faded so bad the amounts were unreadable. For someone like me even depositing the amounts into the bank after atm withdrawal doesnot show where the money came from. So it appears that even someone like me could have problems now.

I don't think so.

If you've got 800K in the bank seasoned for three months before application, you should always be approved. If they ask where is your spending money is coming from, can't you print out statements from your foreign bank account online? While these aren't official documents, and not fully legal proof per se, they back up your story. I don't know why you are bothering with the embassy letter in your case; it is not required. Another thing you could do is copy the ATM slips when they are fresh. Again, not official proof, but backs up your story. If i were you I would also carry in any documents you were using for the embassy letter but stop bothering with the embassy letter. Technically the static 800K meets the requirement.

Edited March 26, 2011 by Jingthing

[TacoBoy]

Jingting, Does not matter my present or former profession or schooling. I am not giving legal advice here, just telling what are the rules according to what is printed and posted by thai authorities about visa's.

You are singeling out Americans in your arguments and that is unfair to attempt to bring discredit to the truthfullness of such persons and their embassy !

I never said that we should'nt try to get along with requests. Either give em proof, ask a superior, or seek an attorney. these are the options.

I never said to argue or not be polite.

Because a person has a badge or title does not always mean they are correct.

But continuing this thread with continued referances to American's and the Embassies is improper. It is against forum rules to be racist against any group, and it brings suspicion and unverified discredit to the americn embassies and conuslates.

Edited March 26, 2011 by TacoBoy

[Jingthing]

Jingting, Does not matter my present or former profession or schooling. I am not giving legal advice here, just telling what are the rules according to what is printed and posted by thai authorities about visa's.

You are singeling out Americans in your arguments and that is unfair to attempt to bring discredit to the truthfullness of such persons and their embassy !

I never said that we should'nt try to get along with requests. Either give em proof, ask a superior, or seek an attorney. these are the options.

I never said to argue or not be polite.

Because a person has a badge or title does not always mean they are correct.

But continuing this thread with continued referances to American's and the Embassies is improper. It is against forum rules to be racist against any group, and it brings suspicion and unverified discredit to the americn embassies and conuslates.

Oh, please! I am not singling out Americans. According to the reports here, IMMIGRATION officers are singling out Americans. There is the written stuff and there is real life. The cat has been out of the bag for many years now. Thai immigration KNOWS Americans can get income letters of any amount they say, no documentation needed at the embassy. If immigration responds to that with varied enforcement POLICIES (different than official written rules) for Americans only, as it appears they may be, Americans either accept that and play along, or see you at BKK (airport).

If you think anything I've posted here is "against forum rules' and that I am being racist towards Americans (racist to myself, interesting, Americans a race, even more bizarre), then simply press the REPORT button and I will accept any mod's judgment about that. I take back my original assumption of your lawyer-like qualities.

This visa part of this forum isn't usually this rowdy, huh?

Next ...

Edited March 26, 2011 by Jingthing

[jazzbo]

Once again we have had quoted the 2.22 'retirement extension' Provision in the Police Order 777/2551 without the header info (courtesy of Tilleke & Gibbins translation) which says:

" ... criteria and conditions for the consideration for an alien's application for a temporary stay in the Kingdom ... "

It nowhere states that if you in fact have the necessary documents as listed in 2.22 that you are automatically granted such stay.