Developing Hostage Crisis Story?

[tripperj]

Nam Koa

a bit harsh maybe, but i think it will take drastic action ,or do we sit back and let the radicals get their way and keep bombing. mutilating and kidnapping people, personally i believe that there should be a shoot to kill policy against terrorists as terrorists keep on insisting they are at war surely they can not complain. and as for people harbouring and protecting the said terrorists, well they are as guilty as the offender.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hailing from a beautiful little part of ireland that has had such problems for 800 years, the policy of trying to wage war on a disgrunteled indigigunos (a &lt;deleted&gt; i can't spell ok) people does not work. After the last 30 years of intense bombing shooting ect... The most success has benn achived by trying to talk to each other and reach compramises. Ok it ain't perfect but it's a he11 of a lot better than it was. There will never be a millitary solution to this problem, it'll just lead to more and more millatints on both sides.

Edited September 23, 2005 by tripperj

[seonai]

sorry Opothai but does that include Gov officials ... ie shoot to kill when found to be abusing the law????????/

[seonai]

signing out until tomorow... this situation is serious regardless of what everyone is saying. See you guys and gals tomorrow hopefully, at least we can still talk here freely. Seonai

[seonai]

tripperj, as a fellow Celt I suspect you understand the situation more than most. A very good night to you. Seonai

[opothai]

Nam Koa

a bit harsh maybe, but i think it will take drastic action ,or do we sit back and let the radicals get their way and keep bombing. mutilating and kidnapping people, personally i believe that there should be a shoot to kill policy against terrorists as terrorists keep on insisting they are at war surely they can not complain. and as for people harbouring and protecting the said terrorists, well they are as guilty as the offender.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hailing from a beautiful little part of ireland that has had such problems for 800 years, the policy of trying to wage war on a disgrunteled indigigunos (a &lt;deleted&gt; i can't spell ok) people does not work. After the last 30 years of intense bombing shooting ect... The most success has benn achived by trying to talk to each other and reach compramises. Ok it ain't perfect but it's a he11 of a lot better than it was. There will never be a millitary solution to this problem, it'll just lead to more and more millatints on both sides.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i agree with what you say about ireland, my father is irish [catholic] and the people in general did not want all that killing and murdering.

the majority of irish people can live in harmony.

the problem with the extremists is it is world wide and getting worse.

nobody in any country has come up with a solution, and we can all see negotiating with people that do not care about there own well being so far has proved fruitless.

i am not saying i have any answers all i can see is it will take some seriously drastic action to stop this very dangerous rollercoater.

[Nam Kao]

OK maybe i am a bit harsh, i am toning it down

http://www.diggerhistory.info/images/air-r...t/b52-bombs.jpg

[opothai]

OK maybe i am a bit harsh, i am toning it down

http://www.diggerhistory.info/images/air-r...t/b52-bombs.jpg

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

now that' scary

[edd]

Muslims down South don't believe a word what Thais say, and they have good reasons for doing so, and they will never accept "Thai" justice.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Forgive me but I thought that the lower provinces were part of Thailand and the residents took part in free elections to decide who governed them.

So they should be referred to as Thais and not Muslims, they are Thais who happen to follow another faith other than the main faith of the country.

If the result of free democratic elections returns a government that the implied minority don’t like well that’s tuff.

They are subject to Thai law and any transgression should be dealt with fairly and firmly.

To make excuses for murder by the villagers, by reason of faith, of the 2 soldiers or any military transgressions is inexcusable.

[opothai]

sorry Opothai but does that include Gov officials ... ie shoot to kill when found to be abusing the law????????/

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

unfortunately not seanai

[khall64au]

OK maybe i am a bit harsh, i am toning it down

http://www.diggerhistory.info/images/air-r...t/b52-bombs.jpg

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Go and have another drink Nam Khao

[richard10365]

Although I don't care for Muslims much because I stereotype them as terrorist, why not give them what they want on a trial basis.

If this brings peace to the region, why not give them a chace to govern themselves for a period of 5 to 10 years.

If they are successful, let them keep their little 3 state country. If not, they return to unconditional Thai rule.

Let them elect their own leaders and raise their own armies Let them pay for their own public services like hospitals and police.

Make a rule that says their country will be subject to monitoring from the UN to make sure it does not become a haven for drug smuggling or terrorist.

Those who want to stay can and everone else can be moved to different parts of Thailand.

All the money Thailand saves from getting rid of the 3 souther provinces will be used to help resettle those people who do not want to live in this new country.

I wonder how many people will stay and how many will move.

[taxexile]

the minority group that is left to fend for themselves within a muslim "state" tending towards the shia way of life will be persecuted and slowly have all their freedoms taken away.

its not even a muslim state yet and businesses have been intimidated to shut on friday or the owners risk mutilation or death.

give in to them at your peril.

according to the koran , and correct me if i am wrong , violence in the world will only end when the whole world is muslim and it is supposedly forbidden for muslim to kill muslim.

those are the sorry excuses the fundamentalists are using as justification , and anybody who does not subscribe to that way of thinking is a fair target.

welcome back to the medieval world again.

[Plus+]

Southern muslims surely voted in the last election, and the turnout was higher than in many other regions. They all voted against the ruling party, though. If someone says it's tough luck then there's no reason to complain that they harbor separatist tendencies.

That election was about their representatives in the Parlament, not about who will govern them. That is decided by Interior Ministry. There are no local governors there, afaik. They are all from other parts of the country, sent to rule over muslim "savages".

As for prospects for peace - some just don't see the possibility. I think they should be given a chance. Why not look precedents and try to learn from them. Why no look at Kelantan state in Malaysia? They are governed by local people, locally elected, they close businesses on Fridays, even Thai consulate. Women cover their hair and there are separate counters at the department stores. BUT THEY DON'T KILL EACHOTHER.

Why muslims in Thailand would be any different? They share the same enthical, cultural and religious bakgorund, and they speak the same language.

Why not consider the possibility of locally governed, autonomous region?

It won't be peaceful overnight - there are truly murderous people on the loose there but the violence will everntually die out.

As for the brutality of the murders - it looks biarbaric, but it's the way of life here. Suspect in police custody don't receive flowers either and torture is common, and it wasn't long ago that people were hanged from the trees in Sanam Luang by "boyscouts".

[The_Moog]

the minority group that is left to fend for themselves within a muslim "state" tending towards the shia way of life will be persecuted and slowly have all their freedoms taken away.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I understand the vast majority of mosques in Narathiwat are Sunni

[mrreality]

A disturbing story just put out. A drastic departure from the "normal" violence occuring in the Deep South on a daily basis. Hoping extremely strongly that things are resolved peacefully....

Villagers take two soldiers hostage

Published on Sep 21 , 2005

About 200 villagers held two Thai soldiers hostage inside a mosque Wednesday after the soldiers went to investigate a deadly ambush in Narathiwat province, according to the military.

Late last night two soldiers were detained in Tanyong Limo village of Ranae district after their car broke down as they were investigating the ambush in which four villagers were wounded and one died, said Major General Pongsak Tntharasuangsak, a miltiary spokesman.

Pongsak would not identify the two soldiers, but said they were in plain clothes and were in a car chasing a pickup truck used by militants.

The villagers have formed a human shield around the mosque in which the soldiers were being held, according to news report.

Narathiwat governor Pracha Taerat and navy Captain Trikwan Krairish were

attempting to negotiate with the villagers for their release, but were not allowed to cross a bridge leading to the mosque.

Villagers assured them that the two hostages were safe.

"The villagers demanded Malaysian reporters come to cover the incident, not Thai reporters, because they do not trust the independence and credibility of Thai journalists in the area, one villager said.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I do not agree with hostage taking, nor for that matter, what many muslim extremists the world over are doing right now, in terms of violence.

But I do agree with their need for Malaysian reporters to cover the incident as opposed to Thai ones, as I agree with their mistrust of the independence and credibilty of Thai journalists overall, let alone in the area.

[taxexile]

I understand the vast majority of mosques in Narathiwat are Sunni

they may very well be , but isnt the uprising and most of the radicalisation shiite driven ?

Edited September 24, 2005 by taxexile

[richard10365]

I'm for letting them have their own state. Then we can sit back and watch them destroy themselves. After that, they will be begging Thailand to take them back.

[Pakboong]

Why would Thaksin WANT to escalate things in the South?  LBJ had his hand in military contracts,  and personally benefitted from the Gulf of Tonkin charade.  FDR had goor reasons to initiate the Pearl Harbor attacks (also a detailed plan to lure Japan into attacking),  and there were reasons to support the Spanish American War ("I'll give you a war"-Hearst) 

But I don't see much reason for Thaksin to stir up the South- unless he wants the gov't to buy them all mobile phones to compensate!  He stands to lose from an escalation of activity - as proof that his iron policies aren't working.  Those that like his iron-fistedness are already on his side and won't be swayed by an escalation of violence.  Those that don't like it will blame him for the action - not change their minds as a result of it. 

Could be foreign influence - there are other parties who benefit from unrest, both foreign and domestic.  Could be mafia related activity, too.

It doesn't sound like the tea shop is something that the terrorists would hit for no reason - especially since the people in it obviously don't like the gov't already. 

Curious.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The first sensible response to this situation that I have read.

[Pakboong]

i dont agree that the prime minister is in any way responsible.

radical islam and the terrorism it spreads has one aim , to split the opposition and destabilise and eventually bring down the governments of the countries where it is active.

it is almost impossible to fight terrorism by "normal rules of engagement" , thats why it is so successful.  the intimidation placed on the peace loving muslims to keep quiet is high , hence little or no co operation from villagers , many of whom probably support the cause , if not the methods used , of separation.

this is already a worldwide problem and the world should take heed of the increasing strength of the storm that will eventually split the world and involve us all , or all our children.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Taxexile - you sound a bit like the German Nazi propaganda in the 30's and 40's about Bolsheviks and Jews - or perhaps like western propaganda in the 60s - communism, domino theory and the lot.

Radical Islam does not spread terrorism. Fanatics do. But they do not have the support, nor the means to split the world - unless the rest of the world allows them to do so by retaliating in ways that cause more problems than they solve.

The main cause of terrorism is injustice - real or percieved. And a real and lasting solution needs to address the root casues, rather than focusing exclusively on the symptoms.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

An interesting point and certainly one with much greater than average insight. As I read most of the others, it is clear that whoever is pulling the strings on this have done a good job at convincing the masses that the Muslims are bad folks with whom the harshest courses of action are necessary. We thought the same about the communists not that long ago as you have so cleverly pointed out. Very little is as it seems and you can be sure there are those in the Thai government are aware. It is a very difficult situation and the solution is far from obvious.

[richard10365]

i dont agree that the prime minister is in any way responsible.

radical islam and the terrorism it spreads has one aim , to split the opposition and destabilise and eventually bring down the governments of the countries where it is active.

it is almost impossible to fight terrorism by "normal rules of engagement" , thats why it is so successful.  the intimidation placed on the peace loving muslims to keep quiet is high , hence little or no co operation from villagers , many of whom probably support the cause , if not the methods used , of separation.

this is already a worldwide problem and the world should take heed of the increasing strength of the storm that will eventually split the world and involve us all , or all our children.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Taxexile - you sound a bit like the German Nazi propaganda in the 30's and 40's about Bolsheviks and Jews - or perhaps like western propaganda in the 60s - communism, domino theory and the lot.

Radical Islam does not spread terrorism. Fanatics do. But they do not have the support, nor the means to split the world - unless the rest of the world allows them to do so by retaliating in ways that cause more problems than they solve.

The main cause of terrorism is injustice - real or percieved. And a real and lasting solution needs to address the root casues, rather than focusing exclusively on the symptoms.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

An interesting point and certainly one with much greater than average insight. As I read most of the others, it is clear that whoever is pulling the strings on this have done a good job at convincing the masses that the Muslims are bad folks with whom the harshest courses of action are necessary. We thought the same about the communists not that long ago as you have so cleverly pointed out. Very little is as it seems and you can be sure there are those in the Thai government are aware. It is a very difficult situation and the solution is far from obvious.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your right about one thing.....I am convinced muslims are bad people. Just out of curiosity, can anyone name one muslim country without a terrorist group operating in it? I wonder why terrorist groups like Muslims or ......why Muslims like terrorist groups.

Maybe its just Muslims in large groups that is the problem. I do know one muslim and she seems very nice.

Why is it when they gather in a mosque they feel they need to jump on their little 125cc motorbikes and go shoot people? Or strap explosives to their chest and jump on a bus.

Maybe its the muslims who have convinced me they are bad people.

[The_Moog]

This topic is degenerating into a sterotypical anti-Muslim rant. Shame on that.

I wonder if anyone writing here has been to any of the 3 provinces. (Doubt anyone will answer that).....Nearest I got was Satun.

[Pakboong]

i dont agree that the prime minister is in any way responsible.

radical islam and the terrorism it spreads has one aim , to split the opposition and destabilise and eventually bring down the governments of the countries where it is active.

it is almost impossible to fight terrorism by "normal rules of engagement" , thats why it is so successful. the intimidation placed on the peace loving muslims to keep quiet is high , hence little or no co operation from villagers , many of whom probably support the cause , if not the methods used , of separation.

this is already a worldwide problem and the world should take heed of the increasing strength of the storm that will eventually split the world and involve us all , or all our children.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Taxexile - you sound a bit like the German Nazi propaganda in the 30's and 40's about Bolsheviks and Jews - or perhaps like western propaganda in the 60s - communism, domino theory and the lot.

Radical Islam does not spread terrorism. Fanatics do. But they do not have the support, nor the means to split the world - unless the rest of the world allows them to do so by retaliating in ways that cause more problems than they solve.

The main cause of terrorism is injustice - real or percieved. And a real and lasting solution needs to address the root casues, rather than focusing exclusively on the symptoms.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

An interesting point and certainly one with much greater than average insight. As I read most of the others, it is clear that whoever is pulling the strings on this have done a good job at convincing the masses that the Muslims are bad folks with whom the harshest courses of action are necessary. We thought the same about the communists not that long ago as you have so cleverly pointed out. Very little is as it seems and you can be sure there are those in the Thai government are aware. It is a very difficult situation and the solution is far from obvious.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your right about one thing.....I am convinced muslims are bad people. Just out of curiosity, can anyone name one muslim country without a terrorist group operating in it? I wonder why terrorist groups like Muslims or ......why Muslims like terrorist groups.

Maybe its just Muslims in large groups that is the problem. I do know one muslim and she seems very nice.

Why is it when they gather in a mosque they feel they need to jump on their little 125cc motorbikes and go shoot people? Or strap explosives to their chest and jump on a bus.

Maybe its the muslims who have convinced me they are bad people.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[/quote

Terrorist groups appear where they are needed to further larger political causes.

[sriracha john]

Going back to July:

The Cabinet yesterday approved an executive decree giving the prime minister absolute power to handle states of emergency. This will allow him to order detention without charge, censor news and intercept telephone conversations.

Anyone with absolute power is absolutely responsible for absolutely everything that occurs.

[edd]

Muslim law

Muslim law divides up the world into

Dar al-Islam (abode of Islam) and

Dar al-Harb (abode of war, that is, of non-Muslim rule).

(*edited from Encarta)

Makes you think

[Siripon]

I can't see a way out for Taksin on this one now he's said he shouldn't be re-elected if he fails in the south.

Many southerners were alienated by TRT's policies in the first term: legalising the underground lottery, the charging of interest for village funds, the disappearance of many in the anti-amphetamine war, the patronising tone of the government that money could solve all problems. When the army were withdrawn early in the first TRT term it exarcerbated the situation as the police were unwilling to enter the jungle, hence the fundamentalists were given free reign to indoctrinate the youth.

In the past PULO rarely attacked civilians and then it was more for extortion, but the present instigators consider anyone fair game, what's their motives?

1.Attack Buddhists, intimidating them so they leave the area, the 3 provinces then become wholly Muslim by de facto.

2.attack Muslims; informers to scare the population, others to discredit the security forces, ie blame them.

Whoever's been doing the killing it seems clear the local population is not cooperating with the armed forces, either due to fear of reprisals or hatred of the army and government. Chaturon's proposals 2 months ago for more local involvement at all levels of local government, for Muslim police and soldiers to be deployed, were shot down by the big brass who argued it was a betrayal of Thai sovreignty, the government should be able to send any official to anywhere in Thailand.

Just last week a member of a committee set up by TRT to investigate the issue proposed closing down all the pondoks, that's really going to endear the muslims to the government! The MP in question came from Udon Thani, more than1,500 km from the deep south.

As ex-PM Anand said it's important to remember the voter turnout was very high in the last election, the people haven't turned their backs on being Thai citizens.

So what happens if it's the iron fist?

Sweeping arrests, shoot to kill, ask questions later, a population cowered,embittered and economic activity grinding to a halt; and let's not forget even with the present massive military presence the killings have still been continuing. International condemnation inevitable.

Can the smart cards stop cross border activity by the militants? Judging from recent comments from Malay officials and Taksin's comments at the UN there's plenty of ill feeling between the 2 governments. Can the iron fist really bring peace under these circumstances?

The alternative, as mentioned by others, is local autonomy but not seperatism, some aspects of muslim civil law have been used for years; election of local governors, high ranking officials from the muslim population wouldn't be hard to implement, but of course for Taksin it's politically impossible. Hoping to pass the problem onto Anand with his National Reconciliation Commission he scuppered its chances with the emergency decree and now there's no one to pass the buck to.

Less than 2 years ago he said the southern violence was only the work of petty criminals, there was nothing political to it.

He yearns to go down in history as a statesman but to implement the only longlasting solution possible he would have to swallow a lot of humble pie, more than a man of his ego and pride could accept.

[taxexile]

Terrorist groups appear where they are needed to further larger political causes.

terrorist groups usually appear when anarchists cant get their own way.

the larger political decisions that they promote are thereby delayed for years to the benefit of nobody but the terrorists.

[Thaiboxer]

I remember last year sometime when Thaksin was "visiting" the South. This was during one of the calmer periods, yet he didn't even have the guts to stay there. He stayed in Had Yai.

Most of my Thai family is in Pattani, a real hot spot right now. It's hard to fathom the depth of the situation unless you've gone and stayed there. People who live in that area often have much different opinions than those on this forum as they see the situation for what it really is.

[The_Moog]

The murder of the Muslim lawyer - presumably by parties loyal to the Government, really did no good for the forces supposedly representing Law and Order.

Now nobody ever comes forward as a peaceful spokesman of Muslim interests,

[Pakboong]

Terrorist groups appear where they are needed to further larger political causes.

terrorist groups usually appear when anarchists cant get their own way.

the larger political decisions that they promote are thereby delayed for years to the benefit of nobody but the terrorists.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

2005 - American Dollars to 1 GBP (invert)

Average Rates

January

1.87973 USD (20 days average)

February

1.88711 USD (19 days average)

March

1.9043 USD (23 days average)

April

1.89637 USD (20 days average)

May

1.85435 USD (22 days average)

June

1.81774 USD (22 days average)

July

1.7517 USD (21 days average)

August

1.79443 USD (23 days average)

September

1.81985 USD (17 days average)

They say a picture speaks louder than words. Imagine how much activity had to occur in May and June to get this to bottom out in July. Then, it magically rises after 4 Muslims bomb London on July 7, There are billions being made here and it is not from a few Muslims breaking open their piggy banks.

[seonai]

I think perhaps that some central facts are being forgotten here in the last two pages of posts. The Thai Gov forces have been scaring and persecuting the Muslims in the south for a lot longer than the Muslims in the south have been fighting back. I live near the affected area and listen to what local men are saying. They are saying that, for those women to have blockaded the two Thai officers recently there must have been high levels of fear. The people there are SHIT scared that the GOV are going to come in and wipe them out. So, in their own way that are trying to defend their area. I don't say it's right but it says in the Koran that a Muslim can only kill when they and their family are threatened with their lives.

This talk of 'terrorists' I believe is overblown. These are mostly normal people trying to save their lifestyle. There may be small factions who are stirring it up.... and, as I said before, that is dangerous, but in the main they are not violent people. And yes, they are Sunni. I live right in a Sunni majority - 99.9% - and the people are not violent. But sure... if someone came along and started to try to knock off the husbands and sons..... they would try to defend themselves.

Seonai