Thai Private Eye Lifts Curtain On Cheating Spouses

[mark45y]

Swillowbee

Good posts! Continuing on, I know or rather knew a really lovely couple. They were HiSo I guess you could say. Very close friends of ours and very loving. He was independently wealthyish and she as the daughter of an old school Governor was loaded and had a string of hotels on beaches somewhere very popular. Basically, here family were minted, she was at a table nearbye with her Mum, and Uncle, who were discussing the forthcoming marraige and her Mum and Uncle (Father away as normal with one of his other wives) were saying they would not accept sinsod below 200 million Baht !!! <deleted>! The couple loved each other dearly. We overheard the young woman pleading with her Mum saying her boyfriend couldn't afford that, it would wipe him out, then what do they live on and use to maintain standard of life etc etc. The Mum and Uncle were ruthless and unrelenting and basically told her that she must find someone who can afford it or lose ownership and rights to her 4 hotels (big ones!). her family are worth a couple of billion baht. We weren't eves dropping, we were 4 meters away. Had both of them in our house after that crying their eyes out. The marraige was stopped, they split up and are now both the most miserable people on earth. She has parents that need shooting and he is ready to top himself.!! A perfect example of everything that is wrong with the values of certain parts of Thai society. He was effectively wealthy and what couple can't live on 200 Mill, but she was terrified of being cut off from the 'family', a group of evil monsters that need putting down! Seems family and money won! The couple lost!

Mrs Mills

Get out of the pub and stop mixing with the wrong company. Most of the Farangs I know do not cheat on their wives and under no circumstances drink and drive. It's all about the friends you keep!

You and Swillowbee are the great white hope. Your superior moral and ethical values will obviously save us from the yellow menace of Asian arranged marriages, loose morals, minor wives, infidelity and in general carrying on in a non Western fashion.

That's below par, Mark.

I hope its not sycophantic to say I expect better from you.

If I did not know better, I would say that is Happy Hour talk....

SC

I have not felt the need to drink since I left the moral, ethical and superior shores of the Western world.

Sorry I jumped into the breach but our Thai values defenders seem to have abandoned this thread.

When I read quotes like below from Swillowbee perhaps I overreact.

“Thailand is a real test of a man's character ... back home, our behaviors are not just internally, but externally constrained.”

“a Thai world in which there are no external constraints on a man's behaviors.”

“a reflection of their cultural values ... simply inferior.”

[StreetCowboy]

8>< SNIP NESTED QUOTES DELETED ><8

I have not felt the need to drink since I left the moral, ethical and superior shores of the Western world.

Sorry I jumped into the breach but our Thai values defenders seem to have abandoned this thread.

When I read quotes like below from Swillowbee perhaps I overreact.

"Thailand is a real test of a man's character ... back home, our behaviors are not just internally, but externally constrained."

"a Thai world in which there are no external constraints on a man's behaviors."

"a reflection of their cultural values ... simply inferior."

I reckon THai cultural values are robust enough to survive without your defence; after all, THais take foreigners' opinions so inconsequentially, and yet while misogyny, infidelity and (how ironic is that - I can't remember the correct word for excessve drinking) are condemned by the priesthood and "Thai Culture" with capitals, they still thrive in thai culture.

I suppose the failure of Swillowbee's fellow expats to adopt the constraints of Thai Culture (in comparison to thai culture) is a bit like the Japanese who become punk rockers, instead of joining the catholic church and listening to Beethoven, And the joy and release that we experience when we escape our own cultural inhibitions (and perhaps the lack of spirituality and fulfilment when we live beyond any cultural inhibitions) and the tolerance that Thais exhibit to such wanton and soulless behaviour by foreigners on their shores.

Anyway, thre wantonness of Westerners in Thailand is not a good indication of the morality of Thai culture, in my opinion, an dthe pandering to Western wantonness, not significantly more so.

SC

[Markaew]

Having lived in Thailand for 16 years, I hardly find it surprising. More and more Thai women are not looking to be the spouse as they see more opportunity in being the mere noi to as many guys as they can schedule, one paying the rent, one paying for the car, one paying for their credit card bills and so on, as long as each one only wants to see them only one night per week, or with foreigners, one - four weeks per year. Marriage and collecting a dowry is just collecting as much as possible before the mere noi's get it and/or before they go back to being one themselves. Men don't have to look for mere nois, as "me mere noi, aow " is almost as common as "Sawadee kap" and "Sabai de mai" in day to day conversation.

I have many of those in my neighborhood. They generally rotate 3 to 4 men during the week. Everyone knows what they do and the other Thai treat them like upstanding citizens. If they can scam any money from farangs then they are worshiped, but mostly it's Thai on Thai.

[swillowbee]

Having lived in Thailand for 16 years, I hardly find it surprising. More and more Thai women are not looking to be the spouse as they see more opportunity in being the mere noi to as many guys as they can schedule, one paying the rent, one paying for the car, one paying for their credit card bills and so on, as long as each one only wants to see them only one night per week, or with foreigners, one - four weeks per year. Marriage and collecting a dowry is just collecting as much as possible before the mere noi's get it and/or before they go back to being one themselves. Men don't have to look for mere nois, as "me mere noi, aow " is almost as common as "Sawadee kap" and "Sabai de mai" in day to day conversation.

I have many of those in my neighborhood. They generally rotate 3 to 4 men during the week. Everyone knows what they do and the other Thai treat them like upstanding citizens. If they can scam any money from farangs then they are worshiped, but mostly it's Thai on Thai.

... and what these men and women do in the privacy of their own lives is of no concern to me ... I really have no problem watching people screw themselves up ... sad to watch, but they are adults and in control of their own destinies.

... but ... when they breed, the healthful and happy lives of innocent children are then threatened ... often, these children are used quite purposefully as battering rams by the mia nois for financial advantage ... and in the end, the woman more often abandons them than not ... what chance at life will these children have?

... this is how inferior cultural values reach beyond two idiots to infect innocent lives and to propagate these inferior values to the next generation ... now, that DOES piss me off.

... I am watching it happen right now with a Thai woman who has lived by the pervasive Thai practice of mia nois, non-commited relationships, or "no strings attached wives and children" ... she now has 4 children by three men (she finally married an Aussie and abandoned them all) ... the children are a pathetic lot, and their futures fairly certain.

... the eldest daughter, now 18, is pregnant by a man with a family ... much as this girl bitterly despised her mother, she has now become her mother ... and she will do to her own children what her mother did to her, assuring that these inferior cultural values will exist well into the last quarter of this century.

... let's see now ... inferior cultural values, or superior cultural values? ... gosh, I just don't know.

Edited April 10, 2011 by swillowbee

[MrHunt]

... but ... when they breed, the healthful and happy lives of innocent children are then threatened ... often, these children are used quite purposefully as battering rams by the mia nois for financial advantage ... and in the end, the woman more often abandons them than not ... what chance at life will these children have?

... this is how inferior cultural values reach beyond two idiots to infect innocent lives and to propagate these inferior values to the next generation ... now, that DOES piss me off.

... I am watching it happen right now with a Thai woman who has lived by the pervasive Thai practice of mia nois, non-commited relationships, or "no strings attached wives and children" ... she now has 4 children by three men (she finally married an Aussie and abandoned them all) ... the children are a pathetic lot, and their futures fairly certain.

And no divorced woman in the west has ever used their children as a way to extort money from a former husband or punish him for a failed marriage. Ever visited an American trailer park, or a UK council?

Cast the first stone, etc.

When it comes down to it, people across the entire world are becoming more morally corrupt and not less.

Western governments are becoming more oppressive, personal freedoms are becoming more restricted.

One of the truly great things about Thai society is that while the government can make as many daft laws as it likes, the police and the people are free to totally ignore any laws they don't like, with the worst penalty a paltry instant fine.

Thailand appears, to me, to be the most sexually liberated country in the world, everyone cheats because everyone enjoys sex, no Thai really believes their partner to be faithful.

BUT

Some western people actually seem to believe their Thai partners don't cheat, amazing Thailand!

Edited April 10, 2011 by MikeHunt02

[SteeleJoe]

One of the truly great things about Thai society is that while the government can make as many daft laws as it likes, the police and the people are free to totally ignore any laws they don't like, with the worst penalty a paltry instant fine.

I can't believe you actually wrote that. Try removing the word "daft" and see how good it sounds...

[Macmundi]

You dont need to hire her to find out if anyone's cheating. The cheaters are very obvious. Women cheat too, big deal.

[mark45y]

Having lived in Thailand for 16 years, I hardly find it surprising. More and more Thai women are not looking to be the spouse as they see more opportunity in being the mere noi to as many guys as they can schedule, one paying the rent, one paying for the car, one paying for their credit card bills and so on, as long as each one only wants to see them only one night per week, or with foreigners, one - four weeks per year. Marriage and collecting a dowry is just collecting as much as possible before the mere noi's get it and/or before they go back to being one themselves. Men don't have to look for mere nois, as "me mere noi, aow " is almost as common as "Sawadee kap" and "Sabai de mai" in day to day conversation.

I have many of those in my neighborhood. They generally rotate 3 to 4 men during the week. Everyone knows what they do and the other Thai treat them like upstanding citizens. If they can scam any money from farangs then they are worshiped, but mostly it's Thai on Thai.

... and what these men and women do in the privacy of their own lives is of no concern to me ... I really have no problem watching people screw themselves up ... sad to watch, but they are adults and in control of their own destinies.

... but ... when they breed, the healthful and happy lives of innocent children are then threatened ... often, these children are used quite purposefully as battering rams by the mia nois for financial advantage ... and in the end, the woman more often abandons them than not ... what chance at life will these children have?

... this is how inferior cultural values reach beyond two idiots to infect innocent lives and to propagate these inferior values to the next generation ... now, that DOES piss me off.

... I am watching it happen right now with a Thai woman who has lived by the pervasive Thai practice of mia nois, non-commited relationships, or "no strings attached wives and children" ... she now has 4 children by three men (she finally married an Aussie and abandoned them all) ... the children are a pathetic lot, and their futures fairly certain.

... the eldest daughter, now 18, is pregnant by a man with a family ... much as this girl bitterly despised her mother, she has now become her mother ... and she will do to her own children what her mother did to her, assuring that these inferior cultural values will exist well into the last quarter of this century.

... let's see now ... inferior cultural values, or superior cultural values? ... gosh, I just don't know.

I am kind of amazed that you have called Thai culture inferior to Western culture and our two staunchest defenders of the Thai way have not chimed in to debate you.

Maybe they agree Western cultural values are superior to Thai values.

Just to make sure I am accurate; you have equated infidelity with screwing your life up. Correct?

You have suggested that fidelity is a Western value that is practiced on a much larger scale than in Thailand. Correct?

Because if you haven't your whole argument boils down to a couple of people you know and is not typical in Thailand.

Just to restate what you said, Thailand has inferior moral values to the West when it comes to sex and relationships.

Would it be fair to characterize what you are saying as, Thais are morally inferior to Western people when it comes to relationships?

[IanForbes]

There are a lot of truths and half truths in this discussion by ALL parties involved here. I've seen it all and experienced some of it... in both western society and Asian society. And frankly, I don't have an answer to any of it. It works for some and it doesn't work for others. I also feel sorry for the children who are screwed up by their parents, but it happens in all countries for different reasons. Humans tend to keep repeating their mistakes over and over, and very few want to accept the consequences of their own actions. I could bore you for a couple days telling true stories where I've seen it happen. And, unfortunately, it's always the children who suffer the worst. Most of us recover, but we are all scarred for life.

[swillowbee]

... but ... when they breed, the healthful and happy lives of innocent children are then threatened ... often, these children are used quite purposefully as battering rams by the mia nois for financial advantage ... and in the end, the woman more often abandons them than not ... what chance at life will these children have?

... this is how inferior cultural values reach beyond two idiots to infect innocent lives and to propagate these inferior values to the next generation ... now, that DOES piss me off.

... I am watching it happen right now with a Thai woman who has lived by the pervasive Thai practice of mia nois, non-commited relationships, or "no strings attached wives and children" ... she now has 4 children by three men (she finally married an Aussie and abandoned them all) ... the children are a pathetic lot, and their futures fairly certain.

And no divorced woman in the west has ever used their children as a way to extort money from a former husband or punish him for a failed marriage. Ever visited an American trailer park, or a UK council?

Cast the first stone, etc.

When it comes down to it, people across the entire world are becoming more morally corrupt and not less.

Western governments are becoming more oppressive, personal freedoms are becoming more restricted.

One of the truly great things about Thai society is that while the government can make as many daft laws as it likes, the police and the people are free to totally ignore any laws they don't like, with the worst penalty a paltry instant fine.

Thailand appears, to me, to be the most sexually liberated country in the world, everyone cheats because everyone enjoys sex, no Thai really believes their partner to be faithful.

BUT

Some western people actually seem to believe their Thai partners don't cheat, amazing Thailand!

... sa-weet Ja-hesus, MikeHunt02! ... I had to re-read what you wrote to make sure I read it correctly.

... let me take a cut at the high hanging inside fastball SteeleJoe blasted out of the park (just above) ... did you actually mean to write that? ... "One of the truly great things about Thai society is that while the government can make as many daft laws as it likes, the police and the people are free to totally ignore any laws they don't like, with the worst penalty a paltry instant fine" ... that's really it? ... you want to lean into a public microphone and say that with your friends, family and colleagues listening?

... maybe you want to go back and edit it as a mis-statement? ... you really don't see that type of behavior as a fundamental failure of civil society, but view it as a "great thing"?!

... hard for me to get past that, but let me comment about your "cast the first stone" blather ... you want to dumb down ethics by making a RELATIVISTIC light-weight argument like THAT? ... do you not get the fallacy in making principles a relativistic argument? ... do you want to base your values on how they compare to the values of Spam-sucking trailer trash? ... you are kidding me, right?

... it is called normative relative ethics, MikeHunt02 ... and it is a deficient arguement almost invariably leading to ethical irrationalizations ... President Bill Clinton was the poster child for it, and energized a whole new debate on what is happening to American ethics and values ... he tried vainly to make the argument that having oral sex with Monica Lewinski did not constitute actually having sex by making it a relativistic judgement ... Secretary of State Hillary Clinton was sure unimpressed by it ... but, an amazing number of Americans WERE!

... MikeHunt02, you cite the very predictable results of normative relative ethics yourself ... I agree with you 100% that "When it comes down to it, people across the entire world are becoming more morally corrupt and not less" ... bloody hell, man, is it any wonder why? ... you ever think about your own ethics in ABSOLUTE terms, rather than RELATIVISTIC terms?

... and hey, I got no problem with sexual liberation ... none ... so don't try painting me with that moral crusader crap ... but, when the village cretins are running around creating children out of those liberated relationships and then abandon them like they are something worthless, I get real pissed at people like that! ... and speaking out about their inferior behaviors is not the least of what I do ... innocent children are the most beautiful creations! ... e v e r ! ... they are miracles, each and every one ... I am guessing you might not have yet really looked into the innocent, trusting eyes of a child ... your child ... I hope that happens for you someday, MikeHunt02 ... it will change you.

... and, I really don't want to live in the Utopia you describe, where "people can ignore any laws they don't like" ... that is just a breath away from ignoring any behaviors of civil society they don't like ... behaviors like abandoning children, a common practice here ... do you think that should be okay here, since animals elsewhere do it? ... that's what normative relative ethics gets you ... the tragic life and suffering of a child is simply too great to abide such inferior thinking.

Edited April 10, 2011 by swillowbee

[MrHunt]

[... it is called normative relative ethics, MikeHunt02 ... and it is a deficient arguement almost invariably leading to ethical irrationalizations ... President Bill Clinton was the poster child for it, and energized a whole new debate on what is happening to American ethics and values ... he tried vainly to make the argument that having oral sex with Monica Lewinski did not constitute actually having sex by making it a relativistic judgement ... Secretary of State Hillary Clinton was sure unimpressed by it ... but, an amazing number of Americans WERE!

Ethics, as we (and you) know them, are based on Christian teachings as espoused in the New testament.

Unless you are a Christian, they have little value.

In Thailand they have no value at all.

Although I do believe "thou shalt not kill" is universally valid, very few people (and no western governments) agree with me.

I've personally not come across any abandoned children, but you might be including children who aren't living with their biological parents as abandoned, whereas I don't consider it important that children live with their biological parents.

Edited April 10, 2011 by MikeHunt02

[swillowbee]

Having lived in Thailand for 16 years, I hardly find it surprising. More and more Thai women are not looking to be the spouse as they see more opportunity in being the mere noi to as many guys as they can schedule, one paying the rent, one paying for the car, one paying for their credit card bills and so on, as long as each one only wants to see them only one night per week, or with foreigners, one - four weeks per year. Marriage and collecting a dowry is just collecting as much as possible before the mere noi's get it and/or before they go back to being one themselves. Men don't have to look for mere nois, as "me mere noi, aow " is almost as common as "Sawadee kap" and "Sabai de mai" in day to day conversation.

I have many of those in my neighborhood. They generally rotate 3 to 4 men during the week. Everyone knows what they do and the other Thai treat them like upstanding citizens. If they can scam any money from farangs then they are worshiped, but mostly it's Thai on Thai.

... and what these men and women do in the privacy of their own lives is of no concern to me ... I really have no problem watching people screw themselves up ... sad to watch, but they are adults and in control of their own destinies.

... but ... when they breed, the healthful and happy lives of innocent children are then threatened ... often, these children are used quite purposefully as battering rams by the mia nois for financial advantage ... and in the end, the woman more often abandons them than not ... what chance at life will these children have?

... this is how inferior cultural values reach beyond two idiots to infect innocent lives and to propagate these inferior values to the next generation ... now, that DOES piss me off.

... I am watching it happen right now with a Thai woman who has lived by the pervasive Thai practice of mia nois, non-commited relationships, or "no strings attached wives and children" ... she now has 4 children by three men (she finally married an Aussie and abandoned them all) ... the children are a pathetic lot, and their futures fairly certain.

... the eldest daughter, now 18, is pregnant by a man with a family ... much as this girl bitterly despised her mother, she has now become her mother ... and she will do to her own children what her mother did to her, assuring that these inferior cultural values will exist well into the last quarter of this century.

... let's see now ... inferior cultural values, or superior cultural values? ... gosh, I just don't know.

I am kind of amazed that you have called Thai culture inferior to Western culture and our two staunchest defenders of the Thai way have not chimed in to debate you.

Maybe they agree Western cultural values are superior to Thai values.

Just to make sure I am accurate; you have equated infidelity with screwing your life up. Correct?

You have suggested that fidelity is a Western value that is practiced on a much larger scale than in Thailand. Correct?

Because if you haven't your whole argument boils down to a couple of people you know and is not typical in Thailand.

Just to restate what you said, Thailand has inferior moral values to the West when it comes to sex and relationships.

Would it be fair to characterize what you are saying as, Thais are morally inferior to Western people when it comes to relationships?

... Mark45y, you've misunderstood what I wrote ... stay with me on this and let's drill down a bit deeper.

... first, and importantly, you've assumed this is about western CULTURE versus Asian CULTURE ... it is not ... it is about CULTURAL VALUES ... the distinction is huge.

... further to that, I make no such statement about western culture being superior to Asian culture, because I do not believe that ... as a child, I was raised in three Asian countries and as an adult three more ... I get Asian culture.

... second, you've assumed I am from the west and misinterpreted that this is about one system being superior to another ... it is not ... in this you are attempting "relative ethics", a failed standard (actually not a standard at all, eventually dumbing down to a "standard" that is the greater of two inferior principles) ... this is about ABSOLUTE values and their consequences, regardless of the place in which they are practiced.

... and no, infidelity has not screwed up my life ... I am unconcerned about a system of cultural values that tolerates widespread infidelity, or open marriages, or friends with benefits, whatever ... done responsibility, they can be healthy relationships ... those are personal moral choices to which people are entitled, and should be personally responsible (side note: think of values as what makes a person responsible) ... no problem.

... what offends my sense of absolute values are the CONSEQUENCES of that behavior when irresponsibly practiced ... unwanted babies, abandoned, who grow up to be unwanted children raised in environments that produce adults who are "less" in terms of education, economic opportunity, potential, however you want to define human fulfillment, etc.

... if the cultural values were such that the parents of these innocent children would then together accept the personal responsibility for raising these children in a loving and nurturing environment, raising that child's life above their own, I would have no problem ... sadly, that is not the reality here ... they more often than not abandon them.

... innocent children are the wreckage from these inferior values ... take children out of the equation, and I have no problem with people lubing up and mounting red-assed baboons in the privacy of their homes, or brothels, or a Soi Nana stage ... really.

... my view, simply, is that societies broadly accepting of inferior values that cause widespread damage to innocents, especially children, piss me off ... Thailand is one of them ... it's legacy of abandoned children are the evidence of that.

Two current articles worth reading:

... re: Thai cultural values ... "Decency drowns in a culture without a sense of guilt" ... http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/231230/decency-drowns-in-a-culture-without-a-sense-of-shame

... re: Thai social decay ... "Thailand rates low in educational performance and high in social problems" ...

Edited April 11, 2011 by swillowbee

[MrHunt]

... what offends my sense of absolute values are the CONSEQUENCES of that behavior when irresponsibly practiced ... unwanted babies, abandoned, who grow up to be unwanted children raised in environments that produce adults who are "less" in terms of education, economic opportunity, potential, however you want to define human fulfillment, etc.

... if the cultural values were such that the parents of these innocent children would then together accept the personal responsibility for raising these children in a loving and nurturing environment, raising that child's life above their own, I would have no problem ... sadly, that is not the reality here ... they more often than not abandon them.

... innocent children are the wreckage from these inferior values ... take children out of the equation, and I have no problem with people lubing up and mounting red-assed baboons in the privacy of their homes, or brothels, or a Soi Nana stage ... really.

So what about the cultural values in the western world where many women deny men access to their own children because they can get a better payoff from the courts.

In America I believe women accusing men of child abuse during a divorce has become very common.

Let's face it, in every country of the world, children are weaponised, usually by women against men (but not always).

Love and nurture for children went out the window directly states started awarding benefits to women for having them.

Edited April 11, 2011 by MikeHunt02

[SteeleJoe]

Mikehunt: Personally, I think you lost all credibility once you suggested that the great thing about Thailand was that there was no rule of law. And when people are commenting on what they see as being wrong with Thailand, why respond with comments about the western world? That's the best defense you've got?

Ethics, as we (and you) know them, are based on Christian teachings as espoused in the New testament.

Unless you are a Christian, they have little value.

Tell me, what are the differences between these ethics and those that are taught in Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Confucianism and beliefs and traditions held in Thailand? Which of these western/Christian ethics don't apply here and have no value?

Although I do believe "thou shalt not kill" is universally valid, very few people (and no western governments) agree with me.

No western governments? But that doesn't apply to governments of other regions?

I've personally not come across any abandoned children, but you might be including children who aren't living with their biological parents as abandoned, whereas I don't consider it important that children live with their biological parents.

So you think that if a child knows they have a mother and father that are completely disengaged and have refused to be a parent to them and they are living with a grandparent (who many times has neither the energy, the inclination or the ability to raise a new child and may resent being forced to do so thus giving minimum effort) or other distant relative or family friend...you think that makes no difference? Because in my experience that's not the case -- and I know of many examples but chief amongst them is the 14 year old that lives with my family now. You think it makes no difference to her that her mother and father don't give a dam_n and that all of her cousins have loving and involved parents but she does not?

Obviously, there are parents that are raised by people other than their biological parents who have a warm, stable and happy childhood. There are some who are raised by thier biological parents who have a nightmare of a childhood. But to suggest that it makes no difference to a child -- even psychologically -- if their parents have chosen not to raise them (I'll avoid the word abandon as you seem to have a different definition for it)? I think that's well off the mark.

EDIT for typos and to add last paragraph

Edited April 11, 2011 by SteeleJoe

[MrHunt]

So you think that if a child knows they have a mother and father that are completely disengaged and have refused to be a parent to them and they are living with a grandparent (who many times has neither the energy, the inclination or the ability to raise a new child and may resent being forced to do so thus giving minimum effort) or other distant relative or family friend...you think that makes no difference? Because in my experience that's not the case -- and I know of many examples but chief amongst them is the 14 year old that lives with my family now. You think it makes no difference to her that her mother and father don't give a dam_n and that all of her cousins have loving and involved parents but she does not?

Obviously, there are parents that are raised by people other than their biological parents who have a warm, stable and happy childhood. There are some who are raised by thier biological parents who have a nightmare of a childhood. But to suggest that it makes no difference to a child -- even psychologically -- if their parents have chosen not to raise them (I'll avoid the word abandon as you seem to have a different definition for it)? I think that's well off the mark.

EDIT for typos and to add last paragraph

I also have one of those, better off with me IMHO

Field hand or construction worker (or worse) at age 13 with biological parents or High school then University with me ....what do you think?

off topic, cat just gave me a gift, snake dropped beside my sleeping mat, what a fun 5 minutes that was ...... it was a fast one!

Edited April 11, 2011 by MikeHunt02

[SteeleJoe]

Field hand or construction worker (or worse) at age 13 with biological parents or High school then University with me ....what do you think?

Ultimately, better off with you, I should think. But do you actually think that is the fate of most -- or even many -- children of field hands or construction workers? That they get a relatively wealthy foriegn surrogate who provide them with everything including a university education? What about the (far, far, more common) scenario i described?

And again -- are you sure it makes no difference to the young person you are taking care of that his/her parents have chosen not to raise him/her? My charge is living a life far better than she would have and we are kind to her. Would she trade it for a loving mother? In a heartbeat, I'm sure. (And I'm convinced we can see how her situation has affected her emotionally).

[bonobo]

Most Farangs I know that live in Thailand cheat on their wives at any given opportunity, some are members here but would never openly say that they do, even though they're anonymous.

It goes against the Thai Bad / Farang Good mindset of this and other Thai based Farang websites.

Don't limit it to foreigners in Thailand. Most westerners, men and women, cheat on their spouses at some point in their marriage. Depending on what study you quote, upwards of 85% of both men and women break the bounds of the marriage bed.

I imagine that the numbers for Asians are pretty similar, although I have never read of any figures.

[bonobo]

When I told my Thai friends I was getting divorced, all of them asked me why and why didn't I just stay married and get a mia noi.

There is some validity to this. In the West, we get divorced at the drop of the hat sometimes. While I had no children, it makes sense for a family to remain together while raising kids instead of divorcing.

So what is worse? Divorcing and having what is usually an ugly child custody battle or having one parent cede most of his or her child-rearing responsibilities, or keeping the family together and raising your kids while having someone on the side to maintain your social sanity?

I do have a friend who dotes on his kids, supports his wife and maintains a social burden for her, yet has a mia noi. Who am I to say he is wrong and I am right for getting divorced instead of going his route?

[SteeleJoe]

So what is worse? Divorcing and having what is usually an ugly child custody battle or having one parent cede most of his or her child-rearing responsibilities, or keeping the family together and raising your kids while having someone on the side to maintain your social sanity?

Good post. As a child of divorced parents who was greatly affected by it I'm afraid I think I would have preferred the latter.

Don't tell my mom I said that.

[mark45y]

... Mark45y, you've misunderstood what I wrote ... stay with me on this and let's drill down a bit deeper.

... first, and importantly, you've assumed this is about western CULTURE versus Asian CULTURE ... it is not ... it is about CULTURAL VALUES ... the distinction is huge.

... further to that, I make no such statement about western culture being superior to Asian culture, because I do not believe that ... as a child, I was raised in three Asian countries and as an adult three more ... I get Asian culture.

... second, you've assumed I am from the west and misinterpreted that this is about one system being superior to another ... it is not ... in this you are attempting "relative ethics", a failed standard (actually not a standard at all, eventually dumbing down to a "standard" that is the greater of two inferior principles) ... this is about ABSOLUTE values and their consequences, regardless of the place in which they are practiced.

... and no, infidelity has not screwed up my life ... I am unconcerned about a system of cultural values that tolerates widespread infidelity, or open marriages, or friends with benefits, whatever ... done responsibility, they can be healthy relationships ... those are personal moral choices to which people are entitled, and should be personally responsible (side note: think of values as what makes a person responsible) ... no problem.

... what offends my sense of absolute values are the CONSEQUENCES of that behavior when irresponsibly practiced ... unwanted babies, abandoned, who grow up to be unwanted children raised in environments that produce adults who are "less" in terms of education, economic opportunity, potential, however you want to define human fulfillment, etc.

... if the cultural values were such that the parents of these innocent children would then together accept the personal responsibility for raising these children in a loving and nurturing environment, raising that child's life above their own, I would have no problem ... sadly, that is not the reality here ... they more often than not abandon them.

... innocent children are the wreckage from these inferior values ... take children out of the equation, and I have no problem with people lubing up and mounting red-assed baboons in the privacy of their homes, or brothels, or a Soi Nana stage ... really.

... my view, simply, is that societies broadly accepting of inferior values that cause widespread damage to innocents, especially children, piss me off ... Thailand is one of them ... it's legacy of abandoned children are the evidence of that.

Two current articles worth reading:

... re: Thai cultural values ... "Decency drowns in a culture without a sense of guilt" ... http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/231230/decency-drowns-in-a-culture-without-a-sense-of-shame

... re: Thai social decay ... "Thailand rates low in educational performance and high in social problems" ...

I think I got it. In Thailand more often than not parents abandon their children. Right?

So I will have something to compare it to what society do parents more often than not, not abandon their children?

[swillowbee]

... what offends my sense of absolute values are the CONSEQUENCES of that behavior when irresponsibly practiced ... unwanted babies, abandoned, who grow up to be unwanted children raised in environments that produce adults who are "less" in terms of education, economic opportunity, potential, however you want to define human fulfillment, etc.

... if the cultural values were such that the parents of these innocent children would then together accept the personal responsibility for raising these children in a loving and nurturing environment, raising that child's life above their own, I would have no problem ... sadly, that is not the reality here ... they more often than not abandon them.

... innocent children are the wreckage from these inferior values ... take children out of the equation, and I have no problem with people lubing up and mounting red-assed baboons in the privacy of their homes, or brothels, or a Soi Nana stage ... really.

So what about the cultural values in the western world where many women deny men access to their own children because they can get a better payoff from the courts.

In America I believe women accusing men of child abuse during a divorce has become very common.

Let's face it, in every country of the world, children are weaponised, usually by women against men (but not always).

Love and nurture for children went out the window directly states started awarding benefits to women for having them.

... MikeHunt02, you seem obsessed with deflecting the argument to western countries, as though that makes Thai child abandonment somehow less incidious ... it doesn't ... in absolute terms, the values that allow for people to abandon children are inferior values, regardless of where it happens ... the child is equally damaged.

... I condemn the behavior in absolute terms, irrespective of WHERE it happens ... I do believe, however, few would argue that the incidence of child abandonment in countries with superior cultural values is far, FAR less than in Thailand, where it is just downright commonplace.

... I believe there are perfectly logical reasons for this ... superior cultural values are reflected in the institutions and the laws a society adopts and the commonly held views of acceptable behavior:

(i) in countries with superior cultural values, child abandonment is publically denounced, whereas in Thailand there appears little or no shame in it;

(ii) in countries with superior cultural values, a public safety net exists to catch these kids, whereas in Thailand the government's orphanage system is institutionalized dehumanization of children;

(iii) in countries with superior cultural values, laws exist to protect children and exact financial support (at least) from the worthless parents, whereas in Thailand there is nothing of which I am aware ... not that laws mean anything to Thais even in the defence of their children, which you previously cited as a "great thing" about Thailand ... (still waiting to hear you confirm that is really what you meant).

... and thus my conclusion, that countries with superior cultural values are better in absolute terms to those with poor cultural values ... Thailand demonstrates inferior cultural values through the institutions and the laws it adopts and the commonly held views of acceptable behavior by the Thai people.

... and guys, this is but ONE measure of Thailand's inferior cultural values ... think of the scores of other examples we could debate, most of which I would have a hard time defending were I Thai ... charity v. greed, honesty v. deceit, sacrifice v. selfishness, sincerity v. duplicity, bravery v. cowardice, respect v. "face", defending the weak v. exploiting the weak, justice v. corruption, spirituality v. hypocrisy ... it goes on, and on, and on.

... glad to continue the spirited debate on Thai inferior cultural values guys, but feel I am now beating a dead horse ... I've said my piece, so I'll shut up, but to make a few extraneous comments below.

Edited April 11, 2011 by swillowbee

[MrHunt]

... MikeHunt02, you seem obsessed with deflecting the argument to western countries, as though that makes Thai child abandonment somehow less incidious ... it doesn't ... in absolute terms, the values that allow for people to abandon children are inferior values, regardless of where it happens ... the child is equally damaged.

... I condemn the behavior in absolute terms, irrespective of WHERE it happens ... I do believe, however, few would argue that the incidence of child abandonment in countries with superior cultural values is far, FAR less than in Thailand, where it is just downright commonplace.

... I believe there are perfectly logical reasons for this ... superior cultural values are reflected in the institutions and the laws a society adopts and the commonly held views of acceptable behavior:

(i) in countries with superior cultural values, child abandonment is publically denounced, whereas in Thailand there appears little or no shame in it;

(ii) in countries with superior cultural values, a public safety net exists to catch these kids, whereas in Thailand the government's orphanage system is institutionalized dehumanization of children;

(iii) in countries with superior cultural values, laws exist to protect children and exact financial support (at least) from the worthless parents, whereas in Thailand there is nothing of which I am aware ... not that laws mean anything to Thais even in the defence of their children, which you previously cited as a "great thing" about Thailand ... (still waiting to hear you confirm that is really what you meant).

... couple of more points below.

I am merely pointing out that the same situation occurs frequently in all countries.

In Thailand the men leave by choice, in the west men are forced out of their homes.

Same, same but different.

The number of men I meet from the west who are first forced out of the family home, refused contact, fleeced of their worldly goods, then denounced as abandoning their children is truly amazing.

At least in Thailand families take care of their own, if both a child's parents abandon it (very rare) there are always grandparents, siblings, cousins to step in. Often unrelated villagers will take a child in.

Better to look after a child for love or family duty (Thailand), than to look after a child for payment (the west)

Edited April 11, 2011 by MikeHunt02

[SteeleJoe]

I am merely pointing out that the same situation occurs frequently in all countries.

In Thailand the men leave by choice, in the west men are forced out of their homes.

Uhhmmm...no, leaving by choice and being forced out is not the same. For one thing, one can't be nlamed for being forced but leaving by choice?

The number of men I meet from the west who are first forced out of the family home, refused contact, fleeced of their worldly goods, then denounced as abandoning their children is truly amazing.

Well, if it's as many as you imply, that is amazing. I'm not aware that the incidence is anywhere near as high in the whole US as you would like us to believe, so it's extraordinary that you'd meet a large number here. Especially since in over 2 decades, I don't think I've met any.

At least in Thailand families take care of their own, if both a child's parents abandon it (very rare) there are always grandparents, siblings, cousins to step in. Often unrelated villagers will take a child in.

Are you sure it's very rare? What source do you base that on? (And you don't think that if you and I -- two random guys -- both have an abandoned child in our care that maybe it's not very rare?)

Are you suggesting that in the US families don't typically step in?

Better to look after a child for love or family duty (Thailand), than to look after a child for payment (the west)

So in Thailand it's always about love or family duty? In the west it's about money?

And what's with this Thailand vs "West" thing anyway?

EDITED for format

Edited April 11, 2011 by SteeleJoe

[MrHunt]

And what's with this Thailand vs "West" thing anyway?

EDITED for format

Just trying to remove the Thai bashing, which is what appears to be happening on this thread.

[mark45y]

... MikeHunt02, you seem obsessed with deflecting the argument to western countries, as though that makes Thai child abandonment somehow less incidious ... it doesn't ... in absolute terms, the values that allow for people to abandon children are inferior values, regardless of where it happens ... the child is equally damaged.

... I condemn the behavior in absolute terms, irrespective of WHERE it happens ... I do believe, however, few would argue that the incidence of child abandonment in countries with superior cultural values is far, FAR less than in Thailand, where it is just downright commonplace.

... I believe there are perfectly logical reasons for this ... superior cultural values are reflected in the institutions and the laws a society adopts and the commonly held views of acceptable behavior:

(i) in countries with superior cultural values, child abandonment is publically denounced, whereas in Thailand there appears little or no shame in it;

(ii) in countries with superior cultural values, a public safety net exists to catch these kids, whereas in Thailand the government's orphanage system is institutionalized dehumanization of children;

(iii) in countries with superior cultural values, laws exist to protect children and exact financial support (at least) from the worthless parents, whereas in Thailand there is nothing of which I am aware ... not that laws mean anything to Thais even in the defence of their children, which you previously cited as a "great thing" about Thailand ... (still waiting to hear you confirm that is really what you meant).

... and thus my conclusion, that countries with superior cultural values are better in absolute terms to those with poor cultural values ... Thailand demonstrates inferior cultural values through the institutions and the laws it adopts and the commonly held views of acceptable behavior by the Thai people.

... and guys, this is but ONE measure of Thailand's inferior cultural values ... think of the scores of other examples we could debate, most of which I would have a hard time defending were I Thai ... charity v. greed, honesty v. deceit, sacrifice v. selfishness, sincerity v. duplicity, bravery v. cowardice, respect v. "face", defending the weak v. exploiting the weak, justice v. corruption, spirituality v. hypocrisy ... it goes on, and on, and on.

... glad to continue the spirited debate on Thai inferior cultural values guys, but feel I am now beating a dead horse ... I've said my piece, so I'll shut up, but to make a few extraneous comments below.

I don't want to put words in your mouth but I think you have written the following when compared to societies with superior cultural values:

Thais abandon their children.

Thais are greedy.

Thais are dishonest.

Thais are selfish.

Thais are duplicitous.

Thais are cowards.

Thais are corrupt.

Thais are hypocrites.

Thais are not spiritual.

Thais exploit the weak.

And the list goes on and on. so you say.

Before I write an opinion of your mindset I want to make sure I have the facts.

[SteeleJoe]

It's interesting that you decided to address only one small afterthought from my post. Anyway...

And what's with this Thailand vs "West" thing anyway?

EDITED for format

Just trying to remove the Thai bashing, which is what appears to be happening on this thread.

Ah, well I'm generally in favor of combating the gratuitous Thai-bashing (though I rarely have enough interest or energy to fight that endless and un-winnable fight). But , no offense intended, you are doing a rather poor job of it.

Your arguments that feature some distorted and excessively condemnatory vision of the West (very much like what the Thai bashers do with Thailand), a continuous "Well what about the other guy?" defense, and a a refusal to see anything bad about Thailand or trying to sell the bad things as good things (even the horrific flouting of the law by citizenry and law enforcement) -- they all only serve to weaken your credibility. They also provide a perfect reason to dismiss anyone who tries to be more balanced about Thailand with "Oh, there goes another Thai apologist who won;t admit to anything bad about Thailand and can only say 'It happens in the west too'"

Just sayin'

PS:

[swillowbee]

I am merely pointing out that the same situation occurs frequently in all countries.

In Thailand the men leave by choice, in the west men are forced out of their homes.

Uhhmmm...no, leaving by choice and being forced out is not the same. For one thing, one can't be nlamed for being forced but leaving by choice?

The number of men I meet from the west who are first forced out of the family home, refused contact, fleeced of their worldly goods, then denounced as abandoning their children is truly amazing.

Well, if it's as many as you imply, that is amazing. I'm not aware that the incidence is anywhere near as high in the whole US as you would like us to believe, so it's extraordinary that you'd meet a large number here. Especially since in over 2 decades, I don't think I've met any.

At least in Thailand families take care of their own, if both a child's parents abandon it (very rare) there are always grandparents, siblings, cousins to step in. Often unrelated villagers will take a child in.

Are you sure it's very rare? What source do you base that on? (And you don't think that if you and I -- two random guys -- both have an abandoned child in our care that maybe it's not very rare?)

Are you suggesting that in the US families don't typically step in?

Better to look after a child for love or family duty (Thailand), than to look after a child for payment (the west)

So in Thailand it's always about love or family duty? In the west it's about money?

And what's with this Thailand vs "West" thing anyway?

EDITED for format

... MikeHunt02, you might find useful the hard, cold, adult business facts ... here are the numbers, excerpted from a report published by the Thailand Development Research Institute on 2011-03-17:

"There are around 2.3 million households in which children are being raised by grandparents ... average age of 65 ... The number is five times larger than the figure 23 years ago ... Six in ten Thai children are living with parents, a figure that has decreased by around 1.4 per cent each year."

... I accept that some percentage of these are a consequence of sad economic realities, but I also know a remarkable percentage are not.

... these sorts of figures are moving the sociological center of gravity of an entire nation ... and the TDRI intel doesn't cite children raised in Thai institutions ... excluding them, at the current trend, by 2018 fully 50% of all children born in Thailand will be raised by people other than their parents ... if you include institutionalized children, that occurs sooner ... nice, eh?

... be honest, MikeHunt02, did you have any idea the numbers were this big?

... you challenged earlier for me to name a country where this is not happening ... I really think I've nothing to validate ... so, how about you cite countries where it IS happening at this rate and in these percentages? ... I'll wager that your list will likely be confined to countries infected by inferior cultural values.

... now ... you can try to refute the TDRI report, claiming they are corrupt and incompetent ... perhaps (they are Thai), but probably not.

... or, maybe you might now claim young Thai children raised by 65-year old illiterate grandparents who believe in ghosts, do not value education and raised fine upstanding children of their own who abandon their own children are not so bad off ... another high hanging inside fast ball destined for the fence.

... and think about a hard reality I learned from the behavorial psychologists who helped me with my kids: ... regardless how hard I try to love these kids back to emotional health, they will always bear a deep, painful wound ... regardless of the self-confidence and self-value I might help them find, they will always wonder:

"Was I not good enough? Why did my mother not want me? If she really loved me, why did she not come find me? For her to do something so horrible as this, she must have hated me a lot. What did I do? I must have been a horrible child. I am a horrible person."

... that wound is either there, or it is coming and there is no avoiding it ... nothing heals that wound but a lifetime of loving them into submission, and nothing avoids that wound but a bonded parent ... and men, that train left long ago for our kids, and for millions of Thai children.

... (as an aside, if either of you or your foster children are dealing with these issues, I found an absolute pearl of a behavioral psychologist here ... top drawer and dedicated ... specializes in child behavior ... Thai woman, but gets western values ... THB 1,000/hour ... undergrad in Thailand, graduate in the US, clinical practice in the US ... helped with the cross-cultural issues as well ... message me if you would like her contact coordinates).

Edited April 11, 2011 by swillowbee

[StreetCowboy]

....

I don't want to put words in your mouth but I think you have written the following when compared to societies with superior cultural values:

Thais abandon their children.

Thais are greedy.

Thais are dishonest.

Thais are selfish.

Thais are duplicitous.

Thais are cowards.

Thais are corrupt.

Thais are hypocrites.

Thais are not spiritual.

Thais exploit the weak.

And the list goes on and on. so you say.

Before I write an opinion of your mindset I want to make sure I have the facts.

Same as the rest of us...

SC

[MrHunt]

... or, maybe you might now claim young Thai children raised by 65-year old illiterate grandparents who believe in ghosts, do not value education and raised fine upstanding children of their own who abandon their own children are not so bad off ... another high hanging inside fast ball destined for the fence.

... and think about a hard reality I learned from the behavorial psychologists who helped me with my kids: ... regardless how hard I try to love these kids back to emotional health, they will always bear a deep, painful wound ... regardless of the self-confidence and self-value I might help them find, they will always wonder:

The education system in Thailand is so poor, especially in the villages, I hardly think it matters.

(there you go, I don't love everything Thai)

Strangely enough the lady previously looking after my kid fits your description almost exactly.

The girl doesn't seem to have any emotional problems at all, as far as I can tell, although I'm not exactly an expert.

PS

What's wrong with believing in ghosts?

It's a basic premise in Christianity (father, son, holy ghost).

My wife and I both saw a ghost in our house last year, we moved!

Edited April 11, 2011 by MikeHunt02

[mark45y]

I am merely pointing out that the same situation occurs frequently in all countries.

In Thailand the men leave by choice, in the west men are forced out of their homes.

Uhhmmm...no, leaving by choice and being forced out is not the same. For one thing, one can't be nlamed for being forced but leaving by choice?

The number of men I meet from the west who are first forced out of the family home, refused contact, fleeced of their worldly goods, then denounced as abandoning their children is truly amazing.

Well, if it's as many as you imply, that is amazing. I'm not aware that the incidence is anywhere near as high in the whole US as you would like us to believe, so it's extraordinary that you'd meet a large number here. Especially since in over 2 decades, I don't think I've met any.

At least in Thailand families take care of their own, if both a child's parents abandon it (very rare) there are always grandparents, siblings, cousins to step in. Often unrelated villagers will take a child in.

Are you sure it's very rare? What source do you base that on? (And you don't think that if you and I -- two random guys -- both have an abandoned child in our care that maybe it's not very rare?)

Are you suggesting that in the US families don't typically step in?

Better to look after a child for love or family duty (Thailand), than to look after a child for payment (the west)

So in Thailand it's always about love or family duty? In the west it's about money?

And what's with this Thailand vs "West" thing anyway?

EDITED for format

... MikeHunt02, you might find useful the hard, cold, adult business facts ... here are the numbers, excerpted from a report published by the Thailand Development Research Institute on 2011-03-17:

"There are around 2.3 million households in which children are being raised by grandparents ... average age of 65 ... The number is five times larger than the figure 23 years ago ... Six in ten Thai children are living with parents, a figure that has decreased by around 1.4 per cent each year."

... I accept that some percentage of these are a consequence of sad economic realities, but I also know a remarkable percentage are not.

... these sorts of figures are moving the sociological center of gravity of an entire nation ... and the TDRI intel doesn't cite children raised in Thai institutions ... excluding them, at the current trend, by 2018 fully 50% of all children born in Thailand will be raised by people other than their parents ... if you include institutionalized children, that occurs sooner ... nice, eh?

... be honest, MikeHunt02, did you have any idea the numbers were this big?

... you challenged earlier for me to name a country where this is not happening ... I really think I've nothing to validate ... so, how about you cite countries where it IS happening at this rate and in these percentages? ... I'll wager that your list will likely be confined to countries infected by inferior cultural values.

... now ... you can try to refute the TDRI report, claiming they are corrupt and incompetent ... perhaps (they are Thai), but probably not.

... or, maybe you might now claim young Thai children raised by 65-year old illiterate grandparents who believe in ghosts, do not value education and raised fine upstanding children of their own who abandon their own children are not so bad off ... another high hanging inside fast ball destined for the fence.

... and think about a hard reality I learned from the behavorial psychologists who helped me with my kids: ... regardless how hard I try to love these kids back to emotional health, they will always bear a deep, painful wound ... regardless of the self-confidence and self-value I might help them find, they will always wonder:

"Was I not good enough? Why did my mother not want me? If she really loved me, why did she not come find me? For her to do something so horrible as this, she must have hated me a lot. What did I do? I must have been a horrible child. I am a horrible person."

... that wound is either there, or it is coming and there is no avoiding it ... nothing heals that wound but a lifetime of loving them into submission, and nothing avoids that wound but a bonded parent ... and men, that train left long ago for our kids, and for millions of Thai children.

... (as an aside, if either of you or your foster children are dealing with these issues, I found an absolute pearl of a behavioral psychologist here ... top drawer and dedicated ... specializes in child behavior ... Thai woman, but gets western values ... THB 1,000/hour ... undergrad in Thailand, graduate in the US, clinical practice in the US ... helped with the cross-cultural issues as well ... message me if you would like her contact coordinates).

You surly must think you are the savior of your clan bringing all of your superior cultural values to bear on your wife and family.

That is what I was referring to before.

Maybe you are correct but I doubt that most Thais would agree with your assessment of their cowardly, dishonest, duplicitous, selfish and exploitive behavior. Matter of fact you paint a pretty grim portrait of the Thai people.

I could never live in a country that had values like you describe let along raise children there. I would be gone in a heartbeat.

I think, you think you have it figured out. Looked at inferior Thai values and compared them to your own and drawn the obvious conclusions.

Kind of reminds me of the British novels a hundred years ago. Who would take care of the dark people if we weren't there. Or the American thinking in the South before the Civil War.

America was an agricultural nation before 1900 and when industry modernized farming and jobs became available in the cities there was a major migration. Extended families no longer became the norm and smaller families became the rule. Children were not taken care of by grandparents but day care centers or became latchkey children.

I would hate to think that your opinions which can best be described as colonial were the norm of the posters on Thai Visa.

I tried to find the TDRI report to read it but there are only a couple of paragraphs clipped and posted in newspapers. I tried to look up the researcher but there is no listing of a person by that name at the TDRI website. Maybe you can help. I am sure you read the whole report and not the brief news report in the Nations News.