The Blind People And The Elephant

[Ijustwannateach]

In case some of you have never heard one of the many versions of this parable, for convenience I'm putting up the Wiki link to it.

For those of you who know it, doesn't it seem apt? On so many threads, people are posting that 'Thais are like this,' 'Thais are like that,' and they always feel they are so completely, absolutely right. In fact, they are so sure they are right, that even when a poster has qualified his posts ('some Thais', 'Thais who work at such-and-such', etc.) they frequently ignore the qualifications and simply kneejerk accuse other posters of prejudice/ignorance/simply being plain dumb wrong.

I suspect, though, that for many posters on the forum the group that forms 'Thai people' in their world might be very different groups. Thais themselves are rather balkanised because of social caste restrictions and you typically find one type of group in one type of place- that is why, for the socially sensitive, it can seem so out of place when the foreign tourist and possibly, um, compensated companion wind up in the wrong kinds of shopping malls wearing shorts and singlets- just as it would be equally inappropriate to put on a tuxedo for an evening out for cheap drinks at a student dive, or even a misstep for a foreigner to speak out too quickly or strongly about political opinions in a new group at cocktails without knowing just what sort of group was around him.

As a teacher at various locations, I have met both children and adult Thais from various social groups, from about as far down the ladder as it is possible to go up to nearly as high as one can climb.

IMHO, it is true that *many* (in other words, not all) Thais who have not enjoyed considerable advantages financially from their families DO behave superstitiously, act without much care for the future, and express considerable prejudice about Asians from neighboring countries while hardly being aware of countries further away. It is also true that *many* (in other words, not all) Thais who are considerably up the economic and education ladder tend to be exactly the opposite. In fact, a VERY FEW Thais whose families are generally at the top of the economic pyramids, and whose personal talents and qualities are also inherently suitable for such tasks, perform so well that the top Thai students not only out-perform most of the top students in all of Asia, but also out-perform a majority of students in the entire world in some areas.

There are also OTHER Thais who fit in the middle area of this spectrum of 'thinking-and/or-planning-ahead-with-logic-and-intelligence' who rather tend to fall in place along economic lines generally with outliers in both directions.

None of this seems surprising to me or even particularly different compared to people in many other countries, including my own. For example, many economically disadvantaged Americans living in the poorest areas of the Southeast often behave superstitiously, act without much care for the future, and express considerable prejudice about Mexicans and citizens of other various nearby nations (but that doesn't mean ALL Americans are that way).

One tends to find groups of Thais gerrymandered with others of their economic ilk, and therefore also (generally speaking) educational background- school ties are very important here and carry on right into university and employment. I would guess that once foreigners found a 'home' with one group of Thais they would tend to go right on meeting friends and friends-of-friends within that group, and I suspect this may lead to the weird phenomenon where so many people seem unwilling to believe that there is a VARIETY among the people of Thailand, and seem to insist on their life that ALL THAIS are THIS WAY or THAT WAY and anyone who suggests differently just doesn't know what they are talking about.

Perhaps to reduce the frequency of the stubborn tug of wars that keep recurring on these issues, one could take it as read when someone says something like 'Thais are this way blah blah' that it indicates 'MANY Thais I HAVE KNOWN IN CERTAIN SITUATIONS are this way blah blah'? Probably too much to hope?

[robblok]

Really well said Thais can really differ depending on what circle you are in. Its like saying all Dutch are potheads. Many might use it but not all. But that is the thing with generalizations they are always off but usually also real right for a big group.

[Tywais]

Probably too much to hope?

Probably. What I often see is a myopic view of Thais based on a small snapshot of experience and ends up stereotyping a whole culture/race. Though to be fair, this stereotyping follows through with putting labels on Americans, Brits, Aussies, etc but not to the same degree.

[SteeleJoe]

Excellent stuff OP.

But wasted here.

*I think it should be noted that it goes both ways; so many of those who are not posting huge generalizations about Thais that are unflattering at best, are posting ridiculously idealized and over the top positive generalizations (though those seem to come less from experience than a lack of it and a reliance on very superficial knowledge); this is absolutely not me trying to use a sly way of saying that there is little or nothing good to be said about Thais -- I certainly don't believe that -- but I simply cringe at some of the silly things I read/hear from people who romanticize and (and unconsciously) infantilize Thais as they make them out to be some sort of far more enlightened and virtuous breed of human (often put down to Buddhism -- by people who have even less knowledge of Thai Buddhism and its role in life than their knowledge of Thais and their society).

[SteeleJoe]

But allow me to rephrase:

I suspect that this OP will not be regarded with any seriousness or in some cases comprehension by any of the posters here with the exception of those who already know it to be true (thus derive no real benefit from it, other than some satisfaction at seeing their views so well and reasonably put). The blind will continue to describe the elephant based on what part of it they laid their hands on -- and will argue vehemently with people who have laid hands on a different part of the animal.

But it will no doubt be a catalyst for yet another back and forth from the two sides (neither of which will change their thinking at all) so I suppose it serves some purpose.

My apologies.

[jazzbo]

from Post #1: top Thai students not only out-perform most of the top students in all of Asia, but also out-perform a majority of students in the entire world in some areas... I assist students in Thailand who are blind and as IJWT would know some of them become valedictorians in their Thai high schools before going on to college on scholarship... some are a little head-strong and tire of such stories as the elephant or expressions like 'the blind leading the blind' or turn a blind eye'

... as long as we are today pointing out stereotypes.

[isanbirder]

Nice that somebody takes the trouble to open a thread criticising the stereotyping of Thais on this (and other) forums. It's noticeable that teachers (who probably have closer contacts with Thais than most posters (sorry, another generalisation!)) support the OP... I also was a teacher in a Thai university, and subsequently ran a scholarship scheme in the course of which I visited thousands of lower-income homes, and met the kids and their parents. There are, I can assure everybody, all sorts!

Now farangs..... I could generalise about them till the cows come home!

[licentiapoetica]

It is worth mentioning that the middle- and upper class in Thailand are very small compared to the working class - so it's more interesting to me to learn more about working class people and how they think and how they view life and the World around them.

[SteeleJoe]

It is an important point and I generally share your view and always have; indeed my first several years here were spent largely learning about the people from that strata.

But it's also important to note that:

1) the middle class and rich also obviously play a role in what makes Thailand what it is (for better or worse) and

2) given the hierarchical nature of Thai society and the way things work here, they often have an influence that far outweighs their numbers.

[Thakkar]

Really well said Thais can really differ depending on what circle you are in. Its like saying all Dutch are potheads. Many might use it but not all. But that is the thing with generalizations they are always off but usually also real right for a big group.

All Dutch are _not_ potheads? What a disappointment.

To the OP: you strike me as being a most reasonable person who appreciates nuance, proffers measured and thoughtful responses, eschews broad generalizations, and is an all-round squire and gentleman.

My question is this: are you sure you haven't wandered into the wrong forum?

Thaivisa without the gross generalizations, Thai bashing/worship, barely-concealed racist ranting, jumping to conclusions, taking offense where none was intended and giving offense where none was called-for? Good God, man...that would be like Mcdonald's without the burgers. Where would I go for my Red Meat?

Kindly desist from subverting the forum with your eminent reasonableness.

[SteeleJoe]

Really well said Thais can really differ depending on what circle you are in. Its like saying all Dutch are potheads. Many might use it but not all. But that is the thing with generalizations they are always off but usually also real right for a big group.

All Dutch are _not_ potheads? What a disappointment.

To the OP: you strike me as being a most reasonable person who appreciates nuance, proffers measured and thoughtful responses, eschews broad generalizations, and is an all-round squire and gentleman.

My question is this: are you sure you haven't wandered into the wrong forum?

Thaivisa without the gross generalizations, Thai bashing/worship, barely-concealed racist ranting, jumping to conclusions, taking offense where none was intended and giving offense where none was called-for? Good God, man...that would be like Mcdonald's without the burgers. Where would I go for my Red Meat?

Kindly desist from subverting the forum with your eminent reasonableness.

Quality.

[Lite Beer]

A Troll post and some off topic replies have been deleted.

[andrewbkk]

Kindly desist from subverting the forum with your eminent reasonableness.

I find this thread dull and I really think the OP has completely missed the point.

For example, which is more interesting.......................

1. I dislike tourist-orientated prostitutes. Allow me to say that my views accrue from having spent three years in BKK and an equal amount of time in Pattaya. In total, I have dallied with 51 tourist-orientated prostitutes. Of these, 47 had personality traits which I and 87% of my friends found disagreeable. It ought of course to be noted that these views are mine and mine alone, and should not in any way, shape or form be considered the basis of a deeper understanding of the country's sex industry as whole.

2. I hate whores!

The other big mistake that the OP has made is to take this forum too seriously. If you want a serious chat, go to the local pub; if you want a good old-fashioned slanging match, go to Thaivisa.

[Thakkar]

<snip>I dislike tourist-orientated prostitutes. Allow me to say that my views accrue from having spent three years in BKK and an equal amount of time in Pattaya. In total, I have dallied with 51 tourist-orientated prostitutes. Of these, 47 had personality traits which I and 87% of my friends found disagreeable. It ought of course to be noted that these views are mine and mine alone, and should not in any way, shape or form be considered the basis of a deeper understanding of the country's sex industry as whole.

2. I hate whores!

The other big mistake that the OP has made is to take this forum too seriously. If you want a serious chat, go to the local pub; if you want a good old-fashioned slanging match, go to Thaivisa.

"I dislike tourist-orientated prostitutes. Allow me to say that my views accrue from having spent three years in BKK and an equal amount of time in Pattaya. In total, I have dallied with 51 tourist-orientated prostitutes."

Well you sure took your time to decide! I'm reminded of the hotel guest arguing with the front desk over the in-house movie bill.

"...but that adult movie was accidental, and disgusting to boot!"

"Sir, how much of this disgusting movie did you accidentally watch?"

"About ninety minutes..."

--

I agree that, in these forums, excessive reasonableness won't do at all. Properly qualifying one's statements, extending courtesy to fellow posters and eschewing ad hominem attacks is for pussies.

Still, there's always some oddballs who'll tilt at windmills. Quite a few of them, actually—and in these very forums no less. I salute their moxie. But let us give thanks for the rest who tirelessly provide most of the entertainment.

[andrewbkk]

I agree that, in these forums, excessive reasonableness won't do at all. Properly qualifying one's statements, extending courtesy to fellow posters and eschewing ad hominem attacks is for pussies.

Bro -- you are born again hard!

[canuckamuck]

If one is intent on generalizations, it would be good to consider that the percentage of high class persons in the population makes them statistically irrelevant.

Unless you are one, you are unlikely to interact with one in a meaningful way.