Two Swedes Electrocuted In Krabi

[siamiam]

This hasn't been mentioned yet, but a person with even basic knowledge of electrical circuits, could carry a multi meter with leads long enough to check for problems.

I have a nice Fluke multi meter but have never felt the need to carry it. Worth considering though.

[JohanB]

Swedish tabloid Expressen reports today that the Thai police is not going to make a criminal investigation!!

It will be considered as an "accident!!

Police have also dismantled all equipments from the bathroom in the resort Mild Bungalows, bungalow A2, including the waterheater and hoses and deliberatly destroyed all evidence!!

see further at: expressen.se Svenskt par dog i dusch - utreds inte (Swedish couple died in a shower - not investigated)

Reading that these victims suffered burns made me think there was the possibility the metal parts that carried the electricity in this event, might also have carried marks from the electricity that could be used to figure out how the event happened. Not always the case that the electricity leaves a 'trail' of clues, but when higher power is involved it can.

The initial police report says she had several long burns on the upper torso and was intangled in the shower hose on the floor.

I assume these burns was probably from the metal shower hose. The man had severe burns on his feet.

The report says the girl screamed first in the shower and then the man rushed in and tried to resque her, but was also trapped and electrocuted, probably by grabbing her on the wet floor.

As the evidences are destroyed by police, we don't know when the deadly voltage started, but it could have been when a thermostat or presure sensitive heater switched on the heater coil during the shower. The heter tank was evidently not grounded.

/JohanB

[Bolsta]

Look out for this type of installation

whats wrong with that???? just plug in the toaster and make breakfast at the same time

[Jdietz]

I used an oil pan, (placed inside a plastic garbage can for safety), with one 120v lead attached to it, to simulate a grounded floor. Then I placed a plastic bucket, (same size as I would use in the shower), inside the oil pan. I took a reading, (with multimeter connected to other AC lead), through the bucket and found a voltage of near zero. This was without water in the oil pan or the bucket. Then I placed approximately one inch of water in the oil pan and one inch of water in the bucket. Now I was reading 50v. Then I filled the bucket to near full and read 60v, (test lead attached to long wooden dowel to avoid contact with water in bucket). Then I tried to draw current through the bucket and was unable to draw anything. Even with my failure to draw current, I am disappointed enough in the voltage readings that I am withdrawing my previous recommendation of using a bucket for protection. I now don't feel comfortable advising other people in this regard. I think I will start carrying my multimeter on my travels and see what I find.

Excellent, you have just independently discovered the "capacitor", nice going!

You have created a (very small) capacitor (2 electrodes separated by an insulator), which of course passes AC and blocks DC. The amount of power you can draw depends on the capacity, which in your case is almost zero.

Due to the very high impedance of your meter, you can indeed measure voltage, but you won't be able to draw much power. You are not in any way measuring the insulation of the bucket this way. The first try (without water in the bucket) is the correct way to measure it. (0V)

Actually we can deduct the reactance (effective resistance Xr) of your home-brew capacitor by your measurements. You measured around half the AC voltage (60V), so that means the reactance of your bucket-cap will be about the same as the impedance of your meter, which, depending on the meter, is somewhere in the MegaOhm range. So basically as good as an insulator.

And yes, standing in a bucket would for all means and purposes insulate you from any shocks. At these low frequencies (50Hz) you will need quite a large capacitor to pass a bit of power.

About the original discovery:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leyden_jar

[siamiam]

I used an oil pan, (placed inside a plastic garbage can for safety), with one 120v lead attached to it, to simulate a grounded floor. Then I placed a plastic bucket, (same size as I would use in the shower), inside the oil pan. I took a reading, (with multimeter connected to other AC lead), through the bucket and found a voltage of near zero. This was without water in the oil pan or the bucket. Then I placed approximately one inch of water in the oil pan and one inch of water in the bucket. Now I was reading 50v. Then I filled the bucket to near full and read 60v, (test lead attached to long wooden dowel to avoid contact with water in bucket). Then I tried to draw current through the bucket and was unable to draw anything. Even with my failure to draw current, I am disappointed enough in the voltage readings that I am withdrawing my previous recommendation of using a bucket for protection. I now don't feel comfortable advising other people in this regard. I think I will start carrying my multimeter on my travels and see what I find.

Excellent, you have just independently discovered the "capacitor", nice going!

You have created a (very small) capacitor (2 electrodes separated by an insulator), which of course passes AC and blocks DC. The amount of power you can draw depends on the capacity, which in your case is almost zero.

Due to the very high impedance of your meter, you can indeed measure voltage, but you won't be able to draw much power. You are not in any way measuring the insulation of the bucket this way. The first try (without water in the bucket) is the correct way to measure it. (0V)

Actually we can deduct the reactance (effective resistance Xr) of your home-brew capacitor by your measurements. You measured around half the AC voltage (60V), so that means the reactance of your bucket-cap will be about the same as the impedance of your meter, which, depending on the meter, is somewhere in the MegaOhm range. So basically as good as an insulator.

And yes, standing in a bucket would for all means and purposes insulate you from any shocks. At these low frequencies (50Hz) you will need quite a large capacitor to pass a bit of power.

Great post, thanks for the time and effort to make it. I hadn't thought of it as a capacitor, but I realized that it was giving protection. However, not knowing what the breakdown voltages would be for the various plastics found in the multitude of buckets/hotel rooms, along with the fact that some buckets may have 'tight cracks' that .....well, I just didn't feel I should be recommending this as a means of protection, on a public forum.

Cheers, and thanks again

[Jdietz]

I don't want to get too far off-topic, so for more questions about capacitors either PM or start another thread please. I'll just mention:

- Adding more water to the bucket increases the 'plate' but as you're filling it up, the distance increases, so the effect is less and less

- Adding to the insulator (ceramic plates) also increases the plate distance, decreasing the cap value, increasing the reactance, decreasing the charge transfer.

For more fun reading try this lab: (PDF): http://dusty.physics.uiowa.edu/~goree/teaching/12_formulae/E04%20manual%20parallel%20plate%20capacitor_jg_07_02.pdf

It is great you don't just try to give advise, but follow up with experiments and think of public safety.

Furthermore this also proves that:

This hasn't been mentioned yet, but a person with even basic knowledge of electrical circuits, could carry a multi meter with leads long enough to check for problems.

I have a nice Fluke multi meter but have never felt the need to carry it. Worth considering though.

having a meter without knowing -what- you are measuring is useless.

Even a neon screwdriver needs so little power to light the bulb that it can light up due to induction in nearby wires, while the circuit you're testing is down. Modern multimeters have very high impedance and can measure radio waves in air if you hold or ground one wire.

[Kilgore Trout]

Does anybody know if wearing rubber gloves and/or rubber sandals while taking a shower lessens the risk?

Perhaps you could video that and make some money, there are some weird fetish sites out there

[appropriate]

Does anybody know if wearing rubber gloves and/or rubber sandals while taking a shower lessens the risk?

Lessons the risk of standing in other people's bodily fluids.

That's probably good enough.

[siamiam]

The reason that electricity in these situations is so dangerous is because it cannot be seen. If someone were to invent a 'litmus paper test' so to say, for electricity, this is something that could probably be put to good use. Something like the radiation badges that workers in that field wear, except in the case of electricity, maybe it would take the form of a tape or patch that could be applied as a small piece, at the time of installation, to metal areas that people would be touching; the 'danger points'. Ideally, this would be something that would cost very little, have a long operating life, and be impervious to water. Imagine if the two people in this case had been able to see that a 'warning tape' had changed color because of dangerous electricity that was present.

[MaiChai]

The fact that they build ELB into shower units in Thailand is rather telling about how good Thai electrics are... If you can't trust the electrics in peoples houses then try and save lives by putting the breaker in the shower unit. I guess it stops the shower manufacturers from getting sued as well... Especially such well known Japanese brands.

Probably the safest thing to do is take a cold shower. If you must have a warm shower, they try and check the ELB in the shower unit. That test button pushes the ELB test button, which creates an artificial fault condition to test the breaker. If its doesnt trip, don't take a shower.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_leakage_circuit_breaker

[klikster]

having a meter without knowing -what- you are measuring is useless.

+1

[siamiam]

You can't see electricity. And using a meter, even just to look for voltage, may be asking too much. But, you can feel for it.

Here is a URL to what I think is a good website on electricity and electrocution:

http://sound.westhos...ectrocution.htm

and an excerpt from the site:

"With anything that you suspect, never touch it with your finger tips - if it's live, you may grab it and be unable to let go. If no test equipment is available, use the back of your hand. Because the skin is softer, you can feel quite low voltages this way, but if it's potentially lethal, your hand will pull away from the faulty appliance. You may find that you can detect as little as 1mA quite reliably by using the back of your hand - this is considered to be about the minimum we can feel, although some people will be more or less sensitive."

[ding]

Looks like I may have some useful purpose in Thailand afterall (Master Electrician). When we land, I have an interview. If I'm not picked up it seems I'm needed to ground and fuse shower water heaters at least. I keep reading about this and Thais seem satisfied to pretend it's not an issue.

[siamiam]

Excellent, you have just independently discovered the "capacitor", nice going!

You have created a (very small) capacitor (2 electrodes separated by an insulator), which of course passes AC and blocks DC. The amount of power you can draw depends on the capacity, which in your case is almost zero.

And yes, standing in a bucket would for all means and purposes insulate you from any shocks. At these low frequencies (50Hz) you will need quite a large capacitor to pass a bit of power.

With 15milliamps or less as the 'let go limit' in electric shocks, and the fact that I was reading 50v - 60v, I just didn't trust it to not 'pass' at least a few milliamps. To test it to my satisfaction would involve more than I am willing or able to undertake, (with my limited facilities). I think your right though, its got to be better than being barefoot on the floor at the same location. Cheers

[siamiam]

Something I always do is to practice what electricians refer to as the 'one hand in your pocket rule'. In the shower, what this means is that you never use two hands at the same time, in regards to touching and operating anything in the shower. Something as simple as turning hot and cold water knobs at the same time, one in each hand, can complete an electrical circuit and cause you to be electrocuted. Of course, this is only in places where an electrical problem exsists. Using both hands to wash your body is not a problem. If a person has an understanding of how electrical circuits work, then they usually have a good idea of how to be safe in such situations. The main thing is to prevent two points of your body from possibly completing an electric circuit, especially one that would provide a path through your heart. Learning about how electrical circuits work is good knowledge to have and easy to come by in books or online. Books are better in my opinion. I don't want you to be over worried about the possibility of being electrocuted in a hotel shower. I have been traveling for many years and following the simple precautions mentioned above in the multitude of different hotel rooms I have showered in, I've never had a problem.

[JohanB]

Something I always do is to practice what electricians refer to as the 'one hand in your pocket rule'. In the shower, what this means is that you never use two hands at the same time, in regards to touching and operating anything in the shower. Something as simple as turning hot and cold water knobs at the same time, one in each hand, can complete an electrical circuit and cause you to be electrocuted. Of course, this is only in places where an electrical problem exsists. Using both hands to wash your body is not a problem. If a person has an understanding of how electrical circuits work, then they usually have a good idea of how to be safe in such situations. The main thing is to prevent two points of your body from possibly completing an electric circuit, especially one that would provide a path through your heart. Learning about how electrical circuits work is good knowledge to have and easy to come by in books or online. Books are better in my opinion. I don't want you to be over worried about the possibility of being electrocuted in a hotel shower. I have been traveling for many years and following the simple precautions mentioned above in the multitude of different hotel rooms I have showered in, I've never had a problem.

I'm sorry to tell you, that what you're saying above is completly wrong, when it comes to showers!! You have mixed up two things!!

The "one hand in the pocket" trick is used by electricians and also by radio & TV repairmen at the times when the voltages was very high, not to touch or catch the metal of the repair object with the other hand even if it was falling over on the workbench. The electrician-repairman is absolutely not grounded, but always well isolated from ground by a rubber shoes/mat or by other means.

In a faulty shower the deadly current could easily pass through your heart from one hand to your feet on the wet floor.

That's what happend to both the swedes in this thread.

The man had severe burns on his feet, which proves that the wet floor was conducting as the earth path.

You never had a problem in your hotel rooms, but who says the swedish couple had any problems before they died. When they had problems, they were already electrocuted!!

The only solution to home & hotel owners is to GROUND the electric water heaters to a ground rod or similar with a 2,5sq-mm green kopper wire, that could bear the current to blow the fuse.

A Residual Current Device RCD should of course be used in the central to get extra protection. But as they are mecanical devices they are not 100% reliable.

If the water heater has an ELCD built in, make sure it don't needs a ground connection to work properly.

Please read the wikipedia link by MaiChai a few posts earlier. There are evidently ELCD:s that need a ground connection, according to that information!!

The RCD:s don't use or need a ground connection.

/JohanB, Electronic Engineer, Sweden

[siamiam]

I'm sorry to tell you, that what you're saying above is completly wrong, when it comes to showers!! You have mixed up two things!!

The "one hand in the pocket" trick is used by electricians and also by radio & TV repairmen at the times when the voltages was very high, not to touch or catch the metal of the repair object with the other hand even if it was falling over on the workbench. The electrician-repairman is absolutely not grounded, but always well isolated from ground by a rubber shoes/mat or by other means.

In a faulty shower the deadly current could easily pass through your heart from one hand to your feet on the wet floor.

That's what happend to both the swedes in this thread.

The man had severe burns on his feet, which proves that the wet floor was conducting as the earth path.

/JohanB, Electronic Engineer, Sweden

Nope. You are wrong. Here is an example: A shower, live electricity at a control for the water heater, the floor is not grounded (in this case, maybe just because it is this way, or maybe because there is a rubber mat, etc., or maybe because your room is on the 5th floor of a high rise), so touching the live lead while standing on the floor doesn't electrocute you. BUT, something else is grounded, say one of the water control valves, or a pipe, or even an old pipe that is no longer used but is still sticking out of the wall, or even say the floor drain, (at different potential than the floor). In my example here I will say it is one of the water pipes. So, you grab the heater control and the water control at the same time, one hand on each. The electricity then flows from the heater to the water pipe and ground, through your heart. The floor, in my example here, had nothing to do with it, (in another case sure, it could be the floor at 'ground potential', or something just below the surface of the floor). In a case involving me, the floor would never have anything to do with it because I would be standing in my bucket, (yes, I know I am not recommending my bucket to the public anymore).

[siamiam]

I'm sorry to tell you, that what you're saying above is completly wrong, when it comes to showers!! You have mixed up two things!!

/JohanB, Electronic Engineer, Sweden

Here is an example:

Here is another example of how the 'one hand rule' can save your life:

A shower in a bathtub with a rubber mat (this point not grounded in this example), live electricity at a control for the water heater, a water control knob happens to be grounded, (in this example). The person in the shower is adjusting the water knob and has one hand on it. Just before reaching up to adjust the heater control with the other hand, (which would have killed them), they remember the one hand rule. So, they let go of the grounded water knob and then reach up and touch the live heater control. They get enough of a shock to let them know there is a problem, but because they are not grounded to the floor, they are not killed.

[siamiam]

Sir, I don't know if you knew these two young people. I certainly don't want to write anything that hurts someone close to them.

I do not dispute what you say about this case of the two people recently killed. It sounds like the current 'went to ground' through the floor, in this case.

This may be of help to people in similar situations:

Here is a URL to what I think is a good website on electricity and electrocution:

http://sound.westhos...ectrocution.htm

and an excerpt from the site:

"With anything that you suspect, never touch it with your finger tips - if it's live, you may grab it and be unable to let go. If no test equipment is available, use the back of your hand. Because the skin is softer, you can feel quite low voltages this way, but if it's potentially lethal, your hand will pull away from the faulty appliance. You may find that you can detect as little as 1mA quite reliably by using the back of your hand - this is considered to be about the minimum we can feel, although some people will be more or less sensitive."

[siamiam]

The "one hand in the pocket" trick is used by electricians and also by radio & TV repairmen at the times when the voltages was very high, not to touch or catch the metal of the repair object with the other hand even if it was falling over on the workbench. The electrician-repairman is absolutely not grounded, but always well isolated from ground by a rubber shoes/mat or by other means.

/JohanB, Electronic Engineer, Sweden

I think we really are saying the same thing.

At least, I think I am saying the same thing that you are in the above quote.

If you are in a shower and you are not grounded, for whatever reason, then you are basically in the same situation as the "repairmen" in your quote above who are "absolutely not grounded, but always well isolated from ground by a rubber shoes/mat or by other means." And in this case you should follow their same rule of 'one hand'.

My point is that you never know what the potential is of the floor you are standing on. It may be a great path to ground, or it may not be. You should still follow the 'one hand rule' even though you Might be standing on a floor that is a good path to ground. One way I have tried to ensure that I am isolated from the floor is with a plastic bucket.

[TheFishman1]

After reading Siamiam post I feel much better like all of his follow threw, and how he explains things in a way I can understand. When I get there this month,I'm wearing my rubber water shoes and standing in a bucket when I take showers and using the one hand rule.

[surayu]

The "one hand in the pocket" trick

....will i be ok by using gf pocket ??

[Tokay]

Actually turned out he was electrocuted through his hand and had nothing to do with urine ... http://seattletimes....ctrocution.html

To be electrocuted by urinating a high voltage line you would need to have your penis incredibly close to the downed line or have some other circumstances happening. But would guess it is still not something people should do.

I'd just like to point out that anyone taking a leak on or near high power lines, would be a candidate for a Darwin Award.

[siamiam]

After reading Siamiam post I feel much better like all of his follow threw, and how he explains things in a way I can understand. When I get there this month,I'm wearing my rubber water shoes and standing in a bucket when I take showers and using the one hand rule.

As stated in one of my first posts on this thread, I encounter mini heaters in my hotel shower in about 5 percent of the rooms I stay in. Then, probably half of the time I don't use them because it is not cold enough to warrant it. So, for every 100 different hotel rooms I stay in, I use a mini heater in 2 or 3 of them. Meaning that in two years I might use a mini heater in a couple of rooms. This is the only time I would use a bucket to try and isolate myself from ground; not very often. And then, when I do use a bucket, it entails something like this: step into the bucket with one foot, raise the other foot off the floor, press the heater knob, water knob, etc., take hand off heater and water knobs, step out of the bucket and enjoy my shower. When done showering, I would repeat the above maneuver to turn everything off. That's usually all it takes to ensure that two points of my body don't complete a circuit. So, I am usually standing in a bucket, for electrical protection, about 60 seconds a year, or less. I just wanted to put it in perspective for you. Most hotel rooms I use have one water knob for the shower and one for the sink, both cold. This is probably because I am a low budget traveler. 'Feeling' for electricity, as described in a previous post, is usually all I do.

[Thaddeus]

After reading Siamiam post I feel much better like all of his follow threw, and how he explains things in a way I can understand. When I get there this month,I'm wearing my rubber water shoes and standing in a bucket when I take showers and using the one hand rule.

As stated in one of my first posts on this thread, I encounter mini heaters in my hotel shower in about 5 percent of the rooms I stay in. Then, probably half of the time I don't use them because it is not cold enough to warrant it. So, for every 100 different hotel rooms I stay in, I use a mini heater in 2 or 3 of them. Meaning that in two years I might use a mini heater in a couple of rooms. This is the only time I would use a bucket to try and isolate myself from ground; not very often. And then, when I do use a bucket, it entails something like this: step into the bucket with one foot, raise the other foot off the floor, press the heater knob, water knob, etc., take hand off heater and water knobs, step out of the bucket and enjoy my shower. When done showering, I would repeat the above maneuver to turn everything off. That's usually all it takes to ensure that two points of my body don't complete a circuit. So, I am usually standing in a bucket, for electrical protection, about 60 seconds a year, or less. I just wanted to put it in perspective for you. Most hotel rooms I use have one water knob for the shower and one for the sink, both cold. This is probably because I am a low budget traveler. 'Feeling' for electricity, as described in a previous post, is usually all I do.

Howard Hughes lives, and is standing in a plastic bucket in a shower room in Thailand.

Here's a thought, if you want to talk about safety tips when living in or travelling through a foreign country, why don't you start a topic in that vein.

(P.S. the one hand rule only works if no other part of your body is grounded)

[louse1953]

I can not believe that they were so young only 23 and 25 years. How us to avoid the similar situation? What we have to do before to take a shower?

Have a cold one.

[louse1953]

It's true that it's not easy to find a good electrician or plumber here... Every time I tried someone new, there was always something wrong, got bored quickly.

I personally do these things by myself now, easy to make it better and faster.

You don't look too far for sparky,good one in Surin area,and excellent English as well,and i'm the plumber.

[bdenner]

The old guy next door basically allowed his 1/2 Farang grand son die of electrocution some 12 years ago by leaving a faulty applience cord lying on the floor whilst the child was in his care.

4 years down the track he is supervising his daughters and Farang son in laws house construction on some adjoining land. They were away overseas working. I was asked by the Farang just to keep an eye on proceedings. The electrics were extremely poor and I advised the old man to put in an RCD and some Earthing ESPECIALLY to the 2 instant hot water systems. Well to this day these items still remain unearthed and there is no RCD (Safety Cut). Effin slow learners, the whole lot of em including the Farang.

[louse1953]

FWIW

All electrics in LOS must be treated with suspicion. There is no regulation earthing system in force. Some building will use an earth spike driven into the ground but this is not much help if the ground dries out - best place is near to a septic tank. Other systems Ive seen

anchor a wire to a steel rebar in the structure. This should work but Ive never test its integrity.

The nasty system is when your monkey hammers a masonary nail into a concrete column and then wraps the earth wire around. Wouldnt put my money on that one but its common practice.

My take - never use an electric shower of the older type that doesnt have a safety cutout. Even then press the test button before using the shower. These cutouts do fail particularly in electrical storms. If you see a shower unit connected only by two wires (no separate earth wire visible) then I wouldn't use it. Even if it has an earth wire you can't be sure the earth wire is properly connected (see above) so its chancy.

A safer way is to put the shower head in a bucket and fill it up with hot water. Then switch off the shower at the main switch and have a splash shower.

BTW this is a much safer option with children who are much more vulnerable to electric shock. Keep any electric wires plugs , equipment off the floor and away from toddlers reach. If a kid gets a shock its totally silent no scream or warning cry and you wont know unless you were there instantly. You just find a dead child

If you are staying in an appartment for some time and are faced with an older shower unit without a safety trip then look around for circuit breaker switch nearby. A safety trip switch is generally available as a direct replacement for the simple breaker and will fit inside the existing cover and is easily identified by having a little test button. These cost around B400 from an electrical wholesaler and is a moment's work with a screw driver to change over. Make sure you can switch power off at the main switch first - not always present. If not then its a live changeover and if you are not competent then get an electrician to do it for you. You can always change it out for the original when you leave the appartment so you cant get blamed for anything by the landlord. Thats what I used to do.

If you really want to alarm yourself, carry a simple neon screwdriver around with you. You will be amazed at how much stuff is live - even though it doesnt seem to give you a shock.

Of course the shower is the worst case scenario. Wet bodies large area of contact

A sad accident RIP but a very common one in LOS.

FYI - all electrical circuits leak, there is no perfect insulator, its all a matter of how much leakage there is

A swimmer in sea water can be electrocuted by a little as 8 volts head to toe.

You can get a shock from a 12 volt car battery if your hands are wet from sea water (as in a boat for example)

Another common example - rice cookers - they all leak

My gf went to take out the aluminium bowl full of cooked rice from the cooker. She was standing on the kitchen concrete floor bare footed - as you do. She grabbed the pot and received a nasty jolt causing her to scream obscenities at me and blame me of course. I put a rubber mat on the floor after that cos you cant tell thais anything cos you are a flang and what do you know. Several villagers and children to my knowledge have been electrocuted in this manner.

I have received shocks from the most unlikely sources

A garden wall, where the lamp on top of the wall was leaking

A domestic bakelite light switch which was outside facing sea breezes. The salt spray had built up a microscopic conducting film

A pvc flexible cord attached to a standard lamp - rats had eaten away at the insulation - why do they like PVC?

Have a nice day

Robin

What's with the monkey comment,if you call people that no wonder you get a bodgey job,probably trying to kill you.

[crazygreg44]

amazing all the comments made on this post. Let alone what it could teach a wannabe Thai electrician what he/she has to look out for. Just overwhelming how the death of the two poor innocent shower users has developed a minor occurence, while discussions that arose in the forum have reached sky scratching levels. I have always been amazed at the poor electrical wiring that welcomes you everywhere in Thailand. It is sub standard in most places, and I feel there is no excuse. Lets face reality and live with it. It is just too sad that young people are not aware of the dangers that await them in a substandard country. Somebody please tell them first.