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[drofphilosophy]

Hello,

I have an interview for the position of a Project Manager at a small and specialized, international management consulting firm (six offices world wide) which works with MNCs, governments and international organizations. The job also involves some consulting and academic research and thus, requires at least a master's degree. I'm a young professional with fours years of experience, a master's degree and three fluent languages (not Thai) and my previous working experience exactly fits the job description, so I think I should have a good basis for negotation. The other people working there in similar positions are about 50% locals and 50% foreigners, all of them have a master's or phd degree and the corporate language is English.

I applied directly at the Bangkok office, so I would work on a local and not on an expat contract. A similar position in my home country pays about 80 to 85k USD per year.

What's a reasonable salary for this position in Bangkok? Are 100k Baht per month realistic?

Cheers

[elshaheen]

about 40,000 B

[flying]

Perhaps you can send a personal message to Ian asking your question

He works for Bangkok Bank & is very helpful here on the forum

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/user/89038-ianguygil/

[dantilley]

100K is a decent salary but not unrealistic. Somewhere between 80K-100K is probably about right for this position I'd say.

[whybother]

I would think you'd have a good chance at more than 100k/mth. An expat would be easily getting 2 to 3 times that.

[Yenoormit]

when they ask what salary you expect tell them minimum 150k. you can negotiate after but if you come in too low they will think that you feel you are not worth more. but for the final it will probably be like other posters said, between 80 to 100k.

[dantilley]

Don't forget to ask about other benefits also, e.g. medical insurance, life insurance, accommodation allowance, flight(s) home each year, etc.

[drofphilosophy]

Thanks for the replies, I really appreciate any input. Taking your answers into consideration, I think I will put "around 110k or 120k" on the table. After having done some additional research on the net, 150k seems a little bit too high and I don't want to sound outrageous. Are living allowances common for foreigners with a local contract or does this benefit usually only apply to expats?

Cheers

[Spoonman]

If they low ball counter them with a request for Transport and accommodation allowances.

[Soutpeel]

"pays about 80 to 85k USD per year"

Not trying to be funny, but if the same job pays 85k a year else where, why would you accept around half the amount in Thailand ?...you should opening negotiation at around 200k then. + medical

If accomadation + transport is not included in the 85k, then lessor salary amount and company picks up accomadation + transport costs, medical insurance should be covered in both cases.

And as others have said...I would be trying to get them to spring for a flight once a year

[fstarbkk]

Thanks for the replies, I really appreciate any input. Taking your answers into consideration, I think I will put "around 110k or 120k" on the table. After having done some additional research on the net, 150k seems a little bit too high and I don't want to sound outrageous. Are living allowances common for foreigners with a local contract or does this benefit usually only apply to expats?

Cheers

Living allowances per se are not usually part of a local contract. By definition, a local salary is meant to allow you to live locally. But with good a negotiation strategy anything is possible. Hint - often companies don't want to put extra cash on the table, but are willing to reimburse specific expenses like transport, health coverage etc...

[dantilley]

Are living allowances common for foreigners with a local contract or does this benefit usually only apply to expats?

If by living allowance you mean a contribution to your rent (or covering it completely), then I wouldn't say this is common as, effectively, it's just extra cash onto your salary. The difference with someone on an expat package is that the company will arrange their apartment / condo for them before they arrive, thus eliminating the hassle of the newly arrived expat having to find an apartment in a city they don't know. This wouldn't really apply to you, I presume, as you already know the city and already have your accommodation sorted.

Medical insurance, education costs if you have kids, flight home, etc. are definitely things that are commonly offered to people applying locally as well as from abroad, so don't be afraid to ask for those.

[Soutpeel]

Living allowances per se are not usually part of a local contract. By definition, a local salary is meant to allow you to live locally. But with good a negotiation strategy anything is possible. Hint - often companies don't want to put extra cash on the table, but are willing to reimburse specific expenses like transport, health coverage etc...

I am on a local contract and get living allowances + medical + insurance + flights home once a year if I want them (normally not)

I can never understand why expats come here to do a real job (not talking about teaching English) and under sell themselves

[PattayaParent]

Living allowances per se are not usually part of a local contract. By definition, a local salary is meant to allow you to live locally. But with good a negotiation strategy anything is possible. Hint - often companies don't want to put extra cash on the table, but are willing to reimburse specific expenses like transport, health coverage etc...

I am on a local contract and get living allowances + medical + insurance + flights home once a year if I want them (normally not)

I can never understand why expats come here to do a real job (not talking about teaching English) and under sell themselves

And then it makes it so much harder for the likes of us to get a decent salary when companies see what they can get away with.

You want at least what you can get in your home country, otherwise why work here instead of there?

[ExpatJ]

My british wife has a 'local' job in a similar type of company here in Bangkok- her local contract is 277,000 baht per month but no other benefits (other than a very basic medical insurance)- but she has 17 years experience and was an investment banker with citibank in London.

The problem for you, i think, is you only have 4 years work experience- so i would estimate 40-50K would be their offer (as another poster mentioned above).

[Soutpeel]

The problem for you, i think, is you only have 4 years work experience- so i would estimate 40-50K would be their offer (as another poster mentioned above).

Which begs the question why would someone with only 4 years of experience be even considered as a "project manager" all the prod's manager's I work with are 20 years plus industry experience and of course are paid accordingly...or is "Project Manager" the new buzz word job title that everyone wants ?

[drofphilosophy]

Not trying to be funny, but if the same job pays 85k a year else where, why would you accept around half the amount in Thailand ?...you should opening negotiation at around 200k then. + medical

If accomadation + transport is not included in the 85k, then lessor salary amount and company picks up accomadation + transport costs, medical insurance should be covered in both cases.

And as others have said...I would be trying to get them to spring for a flight once a year

I understand your question, let me try to explain my motivation: I define quality of life not by earning as much money as I can, but by being able to do what I want, where I want. The open position would enable me to work in my desired area and enjoy the nice weather, nature, people and food of Asia, as travelling is also one of my passions and I could discover other Asian countries during my time in BKK. Currently I'm working in another country far, far away from my home country but my contract here ends at the end of this month so I was looking into opportunities in Thailand. I could earn the equivalent of 85k USD per year or more in my home country, but as I stated before, I like travelling and discovering new places and people a lot - That's why I would choose a lower salary plus adventure over a high salary and boredom.

@ExpatJ

Wow! Congratulations to your wife, with 277,000 baht per month I would do great anywhere in the world. Unfortunately I have not worked as an investment banker and so far I have only 4 years of experience in the vacancy-related field, but I do have a top degree from a respected university in Europe and some not directly to this job related assets in my CV which set me apart from the rest of the crowd. But 40k seem really low to me as a friend of mine with way fewer qualifications and experience than I earned that amount already during a student internship at a small european company in Thailand. I think 40k would be okay for a thai company, but keep in mind that this is a multi-national company which has an office in Bangkok.

So after reading the additional answers, you gave me more confidence and I'm thinking about increasing my salary expectations a bit and in any case I will mention a free flight per year plus medical insurance. Actually, I would hold back on my salary expectations only as I have no idea how much I can expect. The articles on the net say that a Thai in the same position would earn a maximum of 70k baht per month, then there are people who say that English speaking foreigners always earn at least double the thai salary, then there are people who recommend to put at least 200k on the table and then we a fourth party which predicts a maximum of 50k, do you get my point ;-)?

I just don't want to disqualify myself by expecting an outrageous salary. Why should the company pay me 200k baht per month, if they would probably get a Thai with the same qualification for way less? Anyway, for 40k I would definitely not work there. AFAIK that's the salary of a regular English teacher in BKK who works from 8am to 4pm - which are a lot easier to find than a qualified person for the vacancy at the consulting company. I also don't see any reason why anyone would need 10 or more years of experience to successfully manage projects, I know people who founded or worked in start-ups and they have accumulated more knowledge and experience in 1 year than others in maybe 10 - but that's not the topic of the discussion :-)

Would love to hear more opinions!

Edited April 5, 2011 by drofphilosophy

[jdinasia]

about 40,000 B

He's not applying to be a teacher, and the minimum allowed for an extension of stay would be 50k.

It depends on the client/project but 100-120k/month is in the ballpark. Do be sure to negotiate vacation time, insurance, any other perks etc.

[PattayaParent]

If it's an MNC as you say it will cost them a lshed oad of money to get someone from their own internal staff or recruit for the position from their home office so you should be getting somewhere around what they would have to pay salarywise, so around 200k Baht a month if that's what you can get at home.

If they can get a Thai with the same qualifications for way less then they will only offer you the Thai salary and conditions, if you're desperate enough to take it up to you.

I guess you're not getting anywhere near that where you're working now if you think 277k would do you great anywhere in the world?

[PattayaParent]

^I didn't mean to sound overly critical, if they are not offering a local expat deal and you take it then use it as a foot in the door to make contacts in the business here and get a better paid job at the first opportunity. Don't accept that the best you can get is a local Thai deal because if that's what the company really want they'd save a lot of money and hassle on the work permit front.

Good luck.

Edited April 5, 2011 by PattayaParent

[Morpheus73]

@drofphilosophy

It is in the end you final decision but sounds for me as a very drastic step. So when you work in another country for a more decent salary you can't travel and discover Asia and other countries. No chance for adventure?

"Only" when you move physically to the country you want to discover and thereby accept a salary that a work in a german discounter gets monthly (no experience) is the way to achieve your dreams?

Are you not interested to build up some funds to enable you for an early retire and then completely expatriate to the country of your choice and start your discover without worries?

I mean 50K a month is valid if you want to discover low-budget but nothing more.

You might be a perfect example for a person that does not care about money but still sounds all strange for me.

Anyway as i said in the beginning, up to you.

Cheers,

Morpheus73

[Bangkokhatter]

I work for a multi-national company, but applied to work here. 1 of the problems i encountered when negotiating my salary was that the basic salary could not be higher than the ( Thai ) General Manager's. They got around this by adding a fixed living allowance, bonus and healthcare. It's not at the amounts quoted here, but when taking into account the cost of living and tax differences, it comes out about the same as back home, but I work less hours and in a far better climate..well most of the time.

I would be wary of asking for too much as I had a friend who did the same and never got past the first interview .

[drofphilosophy]

If they can get a Thai with the same qualifications for way less then they will only offer you the Thai salary and conditions, if you're desperate enough to take it up to you.

I guess you're not getting anywhere near that where you're working now if you think 277k would do you great anywhere in the world?

Thanks for your input PattayaParent, actually I think it won't be very easy to get them a Thai with the same qualifications, or in general it will be difficult to find a qualified person as they are working in a very specialized niche. And 277k baht per month equals about 110k USD per year - I have been there in the past but in a boring job in my home country which did not leave much time for hobbies and leisure. And yes that amount of money would do me great anywhere in the world. I'm under 30, no wife and no kids, not a fan of expensive watches or fashion either

@Morpheus73

You're right, I do not care too much about money at this point of my life. I have some investements which provide me with a constant cash flow and which would allow me to survive without working anywhere in the world, not on a high level though. Of course it would be nice to have enough funds to be able to retire with 45 but then on the other hand I do not take life for granted and I prefer living to the fullest rather now than trading my best years for a possibly better future in 15 or 20 years. Though, I consider 50k Baht per month really low as well. I would definitely not work for that salary, but I'd be okay with 80k Baht. Not overly happy but OK.

First, I want to learn the Thai language and live there for a couple of years. And from there it would be way easier to discover the rest of Asia, as I could just take one or two days off from work and visit e.g. Indonesia on an extended weekend. And even if the german discounter would pay the same amount, it would be still very different as Germany's tax is incredibly high. It's nearly half of the income for singles which reached a certain income threshold. This includes health insurance, but I'm never sick anyway, I go to the doctor maybe every 2 or 3 years. And besides that, the job at the supermarket would just plain suck. I've lived in Germany and the cost of living is just way, way higher than in BKK, so you can't compare the salaries at all. In Baht, a dish in a simple german restaurant costs at least 600 Baht, rent for a tiny, unfurnished 25sqm apartment near the city center is at least 20,000 Baht and a 15 minute taxi ride is about 1,000 Baht - not to mention the weather and the closed mentality of the Germans in comparison to other countries

Anyway, thanks for your critical opinions. Maybe the company will put something on the table first, but in any case I will rise my salary expactations a little bit and ask for additional allowances. Maybe I'll find out that the job is completely different than I had imagined, let's see. I'll let you know next week

Cheers

[Time Traveller]

I am on a local contract and get living allowances + medical + insurance + flights home once a year if I want them (normally not)

I can never understand why expats come here to do a real job (not talking about teaching English) and under sell themselves

And then it makes it so much harder for the likes of us to get a decent salary when companies see what they can get away with.

You want at least what you can get in your home country, otherwise why work here instead of there?

Says who? Maybe you want to avoid taxes and live in a relatively low cost country. Or perhaps your family live here. What applies for you doesn't necessarily apply for everyone else.

Edited April 5, 2011 by Time Traveller

[lannarebirth]

"pays about 80 to 85k USD per year"

Not trying to be funny, but if the same job pays 85k a year else where, why would you accept around half the amount in Thailand ?...you should opening negotiation at around 200k then. + medical

If accomadation + transport is not included in the 85k, then lessor salary amount and company picks up accomadation + transport costs, medical insurance should be covered in both cases.

And as others have said...I would be trying to get them to spring for a flight once a year

[PattayaParent]

I am on a local contract and get living allowances + medical + insurance + flights home once a year if I want them (normally not)

I can never understand why expats come here to do a real job (not talking about teaching English) and under sell themselves

And then it makes it so much harder for the likes of us to get a decent salary when companies see what they can get away with.

You want at least what you can get in your home country, otherwise why work here instead of there?

Says who? Maybe you want to avoid taxes and live in a relatively low cost country. Or perhaps your family live here. What applies for you doesn't necessarily apply for everyone else.

My salary is tax free and I still get more than back in UK.

[PattayaParent]

I reckoned you were under 30 OP.

You'll find that if you like the overseas lifestyle you'll start to think more like Morpheus suggests as you get older.

If you want to retire here and especially retire early then by 35 you really need to be getting the money wherever in the world will provide you the greatest income/savings ratio and you'll end up here in the long term.

You don't want to be pissing your career about in low paid jobs in backwaters that will make you unemployable in the 'real' world. (Not that it sounds like you're doing this at the moment if it's a MNC you're going to.)

[Soutpeel]

I am on a local contract and get living allowances + medical + insurance + flights home once a year if I want them (normally not)

I can never understand why expats come here to do a real job (not talking about teaching English) and under sell themselves

And then it makes it so much harder for the likes of us to get a decent salary when companies see what they can get away with.

You want at least what you can get in your home country, otherwise why work here instead of there?

Says who? Maybe you want to avoid taxes and live in a relatively low cost country. Or perhaps your family live here. What applies for you doesn't necessarily apply for everyone else.

My salary is tax free and I still get more than back in UK.

Same same

[samran]

As one who has been in your place before, I guess you want to take a salary which gets your foot in the door.

I did that, spent a year with an MNC on a similar salary (slightly higher), but then quit a year later and doubled my salary while making it tax free by being paid offshore. This was back in 2005 though.

I'm a little different though, I actually have a Thai passport (amongst others) which made me much more attractive to an employer.

The thing that I had to be certain of was whether I wanted to be committed to this part of Asia. For me the answer was a clear yes. Nevertheless, if your job isn’t transferable back home, then be a bit careful. But, if you are working for a well known MNC which will give you lots of exposure to other expats, then I’d go for it.

[drofphilosophy]

After having reflected a little bit more on your opinions and reading the Robert Walters Thailand Salary Survey 2011 (where salaries between 950k and 1.8m per year seemed standard), I will open negotiation at 150k, I think that's fair. For anyone who's interested in the report, here's the link: Edit: Just realized that I can't post links yet, but just google "Robert Walters Thailand Salary Survey 2011" and it will come up as the first result.

Cheers