Respect Thai Teachers If Standards Are Ever To Improve

[meithai]

Sorry this is long; you may still find it of value if you stick with it .

I've had the displeasure to sit thru more 'mind-numbing' totally b/s engrish classes taught in Thai schools up-country than I care to count. I can say wholeheartedly the biggest impediment to Thai kids learning something that resembles engrish is the methodology used in teaching it. The solution is not simply throwing money at the problem. That won't begin to re-vamp the totally antiquated, ultra-controlled and terribly skewed system in place for learning.

This is not limited to engrish by any wild stretch of the imagination, but is seen in every subject. Things are taught here by rote alone. They are totally pounded into the students' heads over and over. The students never ask questions, just copy text off the board, sit thru lecture after lecture on the subject and then test out via exams. The "no-child-left-behind" initiative which is in place now makes even failing a class not an option. There are more than just anecdotal evidence of foreigners teaching engrish being called into the principal's office after an exam and being told "These grades are unacceptable; change the grades so everyone passes your class!"

The 'face loss' factor is quite possibly the biggest hindrance to effectively learning any subject. Buddha help us when a student raises their hand and asks a teacher to better explain something! Oh, what a can 'o worms that would open concerning "loss-'o-face". The teacher could 'lose face' for not explaining things clearly or (much more likely) the student would 'lose face' (and possibly be ridiculed by the teacher) for not understanding. It's almost hard-wired to be a lose/lose situation. Sheesh, if you don't understand, raise your hand and say, "I'm sorry, could you explain that in another way?" I'm sure the student who asked wasn't the only one in class who didn't understand, they were just the only one who had the balls to ask about it.

The hierarchy or 'pecking-order' in Thai schools seems to be purposefully designed to "choke the life" out of any new teacher who has initiative or wants to use innovative teaching techniques. Imagine if a Thai teacher "thought-outside-the-box", encouraged students to ASK questions, encouraged interaction in class and at least began to teach students to use rudimentary critical thinking skills. Ask the 'old guard' which really control the education field this question and they'd say classes would become total chaos! It's exactly that mind-set that has held back generation after generation of Thai students except the uber-rich.

Thankfully in a more 'connected' world, Thailand will either hafta step up or shut up in the not so near future. I have met many Thai students who are starting to question the status quo, insofar as the quality of their education. It will be a long, slow, painful process to revamp something as deeply entrenched as the education sector, but it can happen.

I totally agree; any Thai who even becomes semi-proficient in engrish is snapped up by the private sector either here or abroad. Face it, who would want to be employed in the over-controlled, stifling, mind-numbing education sector? I think they'd rather work for a 'real' company where initiative and creative skills are looked at as a benefit instead of as a detriment.

Sometimes I tell my Thai friends in jest; the reason Thais don't "think outside the box" is because no one ever told them there even was a "box" to begin with.

Is there a reason you insisted on spelling English to engrish throughout your entire post? It wasn't funny the first time and by the tenth time I seriously started to question your intelligence. What was the point of doing that repeatedly?

Ever heard of WIT?

[sirchai]

You won't find them in a cockpit of an international flight now, but hopefully when their educational system has been changed.

Please take runway C4..Arrai na? C 4. Went down on D 4 and crashed. :jap:

Wrong - in spades. Thai aircrew seem to be the rule rather than the exception on the Thai airlines.

Runways are given numbers which relates to the direction in which they lie. For example, at Heathrow 27L means that the runway lies towards a direction between 270 and 279 and is the left hand one ( two runways are parallel). Landing from the opposite direction on the same runway the pilot would be directed to runway 09R.

Sorry, it was just a joke about miscommunication. What about understanding 27 L, but they supposed to take 27 N??? Anyways, have you ever seen a Thai person without the right/ left problem? :jap:

[Colabamumbai]

In an educational environment where schools will cancel at least 25% of their classes per semester in favour of Nationalistic and ceremonial activities, where assessment and attribution are an absolute farce, where class sizes can easily reach up to 50 and where how you look is more important than what you teach, the 83.000 baht 'white elephants' will have no impact. Reform does not commence with teachers, its starts with the Ministry and school directors!

Right!!!!!!

School directors that collect kickbacks from the agencies that supply the teachers.

[anterian]

I am a retired Englishman, a teacher. My first year here I made friends with some Thai teachers of English. As a result I was invited during the Summer break to join a group of several hundreds of Thai English language teachers on a three day cruise from Bangkok to Pattaya and back. I was astonished to discover, remember it was my first year here, that most of them were unable to hold a simple conversation in English. Now of course I would no longer be surprised

[Mosha]

I had the Thai, non English speaking teachers from up the road pay me a visit a few years back. They had down loaded a scientific paper and they asked me to create 10 questions for the students. This is a infant/primary level school. Some of the words used in that paper were beyond what I could understand. I really pity those kids. I've had teachers ordering me to teach at their schools, my answer to that was to show them my visa, after explanations of I'm not a teacher were ignored. "You can speak English, you can teach!" I am the 1st one to admit my spoken English isn't perfect, I still speak "Yorkshire" and only resort to good English when my wife's eyes glaze over

Not only do the classes get cancelled for reasons mentioned before, they get cancelled also because the teachers can't be arsed turning up.

Edited April 6, 2011 by Mosha

[Honolulu]

Although I'm not a teacher of any kind, (except to my daughter), it seems to me that learning English will always be a very difficult for most Thais as long as there is no immersion.

How can a Thai be expected to learn English, if they are going to spend most of their time speaking Thai with their Thai friends and never be forced to speak with native English speakers, except in class? It is going to require a concerted effort at the National level.

For example, it might be helpful if all television shows and movies have English caption.( for that matter all English shows could have Thai caption to improve everyones language skills).

All road signs, food menus, school attention broadcasts, news papers, public forums of all kinds, legal documents, mabey even the National Anthem.

It would also be helpful, if the 'powers that be' would make it easier for more English speaking people from all over the World to come and stay here. It is not an easy process with all the silly 'visa runs' and other discriminatory practices. One day they will realize that most foreigners would be willing to pay TRIPLE the visa fee, if they could just pay it at the local Police station instead of having to go to a border check point.

Also, I would not even bother teaching Thai in school, past a certain level. At some point, the entire lessen would be available only in English. Which translates to a child not even being able to graduate without good English skills. Your average bar girl probably speaks better English than most school graduates.

Of course, after you factor in the corruption, this is all just a pipe dream. I fear that ,along the way, English speaking Thais will have a way to take advantage of a non English speaking Thai, and that will be painful.

[bangon04]

You won't find them in a cockpit of an international flight now, but hopefully when their educational system has been changed.

Please take runway C4..Arrai na? C 4. Went down on D 4 and crashed. :jap:

Wrong - in spades. Thai aircrew seem to be the rule rather than the exception on the Thai airlines.

Runways are given numbers which relates to the direction in which they lie. For example, at Heathrow 27L means that the runway lies towards a direction between 270 and 279 and is the left hand one ( two runways are parallel). Landing from the opposite direction on the same runway the pilot would be directed to runway 09R.

Sorry, it was just a joke about miscommunication. What about understanding 27 L, but they supposed to take 27 N??? Anyways, have you ever seen a Thai person without the right/ left problem? :jap:

Most of the ones who are partially or wholly educated outside Thailand.

I would be interested to see stats on how many THAI aircrew were educated outside Thailand.

[wackysleet]

Instead of getting English teachers from western countries....many whom I have seen cannot even speak or write decent English and are generally sexpats or criminals running away from their own countries and instead of finding Thais trying to speak English with silly American or British accents, simply follow the Singapore model and get teachers from Singapore to train Thai teachers. even if we have develope a Thailish accent, its alright, we are after all Asians. The degree of education and ability to perform is not based on the way we speak Englsih alone. Countries like Singapore, Japan , India, etc have Asian who are smarter, more able and willing to work harder than their western counterparts.

I have heard some old b-ll--ks in my time here on TV but your post takes the cake. You made a statement concerning English teachers, well if they were qualified then you can or should be fairly certain that they have at least obtained a standard far far superior to the vast majority of Thai teachers but of course the many English teachers you speak of who are generally sexpats and criminals have confided this fact to you.

One of the reasons Thais are so bad at English is the crap quality of the Thai teaching system and the teachers themselves amongst of course problems too numerous to mention.

[wackysleet]

I had the Thai, non English speaking teachers from up the road pay me a visit a few years back. They had down loaded a scientific paper and they asked me to create 10 questions for the students. This is a infant/primary level school. Some of the words used in that paper were beyond what I could understand. I really pity those kids. I've had teachers ordering me to teach at their schools, my answer to that was to show them my visa, after explanations of I'm not a teacher were ignored. "You can speak English, you can teach!" I am the 1st one to admit my spoken English isn't perfect, I still speak "Yorkshire" and only resort to good English when my wife's eyes glaze over

Not only do the classes get cancelled for reasons mentioned before, they get cancelled also because the teachers can't be arsed turning up.

Mosha, just because you have a Yorkshire accent does not mean you cannot speak very good English, I know, we have conversed when you have been somewhat inebriated to say the least.

As far as teaching goes, does anyone here really believe that very many pupils in government schools, especially the ones out in the boonies will ever learn English, don't think so, and another post alluded to the fact that bar girls invariably speak more English than the majority of graduates, "needs must when the devil drives I suppose" perhaps a quicker way for Thais to learn some basic stuff may be to teach conversation rather than concentrate on grammar and by using correct grammar they could hopefully learn by example. Just a thought.

[tim armstrong]

So many things to change. Some great points about the need to promote thinking and discussion, smaller class sizes, and encouraging good Thai teachers. But there are some underlying deeply entrenched issues. Except for IT and industries that communicate daily with the rest of the world, I think that most Thais don't know why they should speak English. Some strongly resent having to try at all.

Many Thais like the 'box' and see no need to go anywhere else or think outside of it. They don't understand concepts like individualism, personal freedom, human rights, or independence.

Teaching English is as much about western concepts of learning as it is about the words and sentences. As a westerner who am I to prescribe my way of thinking to a population with some exceptions that couldn't give a toss about world issues, because they have no interest in them. Those who do want to learn English should be encouraged, but not coerced.

How would it be if All Americans, Canadians, British, Australians, New Zealanders, were suddenly told to learn Mandarin. (It might happen yet!)

Right now Thailand's fundamental economics are better than Greece - the birthplace of civilisation?, Ireland - the birthplace of Guiness, and the US the birthplace of credit cards,hedge fund managers and virtual debt.

.. So why again do they need English ??

[mark45y]

So many things to change. Some great points about the need to promote thinking and discussion, smaller class sizes, and encouraging good Thai teachers. But there are some underlying deeply entrenched issues. Except for IT and industries that communicate daily with the rest of the world, I think that most Thais don't know why they should speak English. Some strongly resent having to try at all.

Many Thais like the 'box' and see no need to go anywhere else or think outside of it. They don't understand concepts like individualism, personal freedom, human rights, or independence.

Teaching English is as much about western concepts of learning as it is about the words and sentences. As a westerner who am I to prescribe my way of thinking to a population with some exceptions that couldn't give a toss about world issues, because they have no interest in them. Those who do want to learn English should be encouraged, but not coerced.

How would it be if All Americans, Canadians, British, Australians, New Zealanders, were suddenly told to learn Mandarin. (It might happen yet!)

Right now Thailand's fundamental economics are better than Greece - the birthplace of civilisation?, Ireland - the birthplace of Guiness, and the US the birthplace of credit cards,hedge fund managers and virtual debt.

.. So why again do they need English ??

I agree. Why should they change?

A while ago I started a thread about why I didn't teach my girlfriend English. It is the same thing except on a larger scale. I am happy speaking Thai and having her not speak English. She has no idea what I am typing right now although she is looking over my shoulder.

If she wants any information about her father's cancer treatments she asks me and I look it up on line in English and translate for her.

If she wants any information about international banking, I look it up and translate.

Girlfriend #2 (not Thai) writes me and texts me with impunity and I text her back.

My computer is secure because I use Ubuntu instead of Windows. Not many Thais know how to get the Thai instructions for Ubuntu.

My girlfriend is isolated from the rest of the world because she does not speak or read English.

I think most Thais are like my GF and don't care. However there are some Thais who do not want to be isolated from the rest of the world. I think they are silly. Isolation is fine with me. I get along with the ghosts and archaic beliefs and superstitions.

[borisloosebrain]

Sorry this is long; you may still find it of value if you stick with it .

I've had the displeasure to sit thru more 'mind-numbing' totally b/s engrish classes taught in Thai schools up-country than I care to count. I can say wholeheartedly the biggest impediment to Thai kids learning something that resembles engrish is the methodology used in teaching it. The solution is not simply throwing money at the problem. That won’t begin to re-vamp the totally antiquated, ultra-controlled and terribly skewed system in place for learning.

This is not limited to engrish by any wild stretch of the imagination, but is seen in every subject. Things are taught here by rote alone. They are totally pounded into the students’ heads over and over. The students never ask questions, just copy text off the board, sit thru lecture after lecture on the subject and then test out via exams. The “no-child-left-behind” initiative which is in place now makes even failing a class not an option. There are more than just anecdotal evidence of foreigners teaching engrish being called into the principal’s office after an exam and being told “These grades are unacceptable; change the grades so everyone passes your class!”

The 'face loss' factor is quite possibly the biggest hindrance to effectively learning any subject. Buddha help us when a student raises their hand and asks a teacher to better explain something! Oh, what a can 'o worms that would open concerning "loss-'o-face". The teacher could ‘lose face’ for not explaining things clearly or (much more likely) the student would ‘lose face’ (and possibly be ridiculed by the teacher) for not understanding. It’s almost hard-wired to be a lose/lose situation. Sheesh, if you don't understand, raise your hand and say, "I'm sorry, could you explain that in another way?" I'm sure the student who asked wasn't the only one in class who didn't understand, they were just the only one who had the balls to ask about it.

The hierarchy or 'pecking-order' in Thai schools seems to be purposefully designed to “choke the life” out of any new teacher who has initiative or wants to use innovative teaching techniques. Imagine if a Thai teacher "thought-outside-the-box", encouraged students to ASK questions, encouraged interaction in class and at least began to teach students to use rudimentary critical thinking skills. Ask the 'old guard' which really control the education field this question and they'd say classes would become total chaos! It's exactly that mind-set that has held back generation after generation of Thai students except the uber-rich.

Thankfully in a more 'connected' world, Thailand will either hafta step up or shut up in the not so near future. I have met many Thai students who are starting to question the status quo, insofar as the quality of their education. It will be a long, slow, painful process to revamp something as deeply entrenched as the education sector, but it can happen.

I totally agree; any Thai who even becomes semi-proficient in engrish is snapped up by the private sector either here or abroad. Face it, who would want to be employed in the over-controlled, stifling, mind-numbing education sector? I think they'd rather work for a ‘real’ company where initiative and creative skills are looked at as a benefit instead of as a detriment.

Sometimes I tell my Thai friends in jest; the reason Thais don't “think outside the box” is because no one ever told them there even was a “box” to begin with.

Spot on ! You hit the nail right on the head -the system is paralysed by 'kreng jai'. I swear my gfs kids were way smarter and more inquisitive before they b4 they began attending Govt school.

[lungmi]

The education system needs toal reform. Band aids like 83K native speakers wont achieve anything without reform. However, has any government ever been able to reform any part of the bureaucracy?

The single party TRT government threatened to fire the bottom 10% of civil servants in terms of performance and then backed down very quickly. The only time anyone ever changed the police was when they took on and lost to the army back in the 60s and had their naval units taken away. The current government couldnt even stop CAT from keeping its monopoly and the government were meant to have the backing of the elite.

If you want to see anger beyond any red or yellow bile then ask M6 students especially ones from lower or middle class backgrounds about university entrance which changes all the time and whenever the playing field gets a slight leveling there is a backlash from the establishment within education (the university rectors are a particularly reactionary group) to make sure those with the money that the educational elite love retain their top spot and the leveling is more than mitigated against.

While there is an educational system that exists that favours only the wealthy and elite nothing will change. A country as it develops needs to learn to value its greatest asset, its own human capital and a country will certainly suffer vis-a-vis others while it excludes most from decent education thereby never realising full potential.

Lett also be honest, whether it is 83 K native speakers or TRT style one province one brilliant school nonsense it is isnt aimed at any normal student but at satisfying the demands of the local elites and upper middle classes in the province. You aint going to find any US or UK uber-teachers outside the main provincial town and the schools they end up teaching at will be entirely predicatble as they are ones filled with rich kids and a token maids daughter.

Reform is what is needed but no doubt bandaids are easier to deliver than trying to force a bureacracy that is entirely aimed at its own self preservation and self perpetuation with a single rationale of supporting itself to actually do what it was once set up to do but has since pushed down to a minor tertiary role possibly excepting when some propaganda needs peddling to the young.

I agree, the teachers are not the problem. In my area English Teachers ask my help (Professional language teacher for German and French, no native English). They complain that no one taught them how to teach English. In rural areas with Hill Tribe students (English is the 3ird language) they are forced to follow the general instructions from Bangkok against reality and their conviction.

[gemini81]

The simple fact is that most Thais do NOT WANT to make efforts learning English. It is not about teaching only, the internet alone has so many possibilites.

The few remaining motivated Thais then are TOO SHY to practice. Language is about making mistakes and learning by them. That's how I learned English long time ago and I stlll don't care about my mistakes.

isn't that that truth! and how I learned written and spoken thai....learning from mistakes and making improvement...but never hesitation. desire and motivation are the driving factors.....

[mark45y]

Maybe all you guys are teachers with lots of experience and stuff but I wonder.

They get kids from 3 years old. So kindergarten through 5 the grade I don't think many schools teach much about critical thought and questioning the teacher. Anuban 1,2,3 and Prathom 1,2,3,4,5.

8 years of a dumb teacher drilling kids to speak English if the teacher could speak English would do something.

I think all of your talk about critical thinking and thinking outside the box is foolish. We are talking 3 to 11 years old after all.

The fact of the matter is Thai kindergarten and grade school teachers can't pronounce basic English words. Teach the teachers and you might start to see some improvement. One native English speaker for 20 Thai teachers a few nights a week for a couple of years would make a big difference.

Apologies to all the teaching experts who have never set foot inside of a government kindergarten classroom but the kids are sponges. They will absorb anything you feed them. They also understand my bad Thai better than the dumb teachers. I can communicate with kids no problem because they are not conditioned to not understand me nor do they have any funny regional accents yet. Kids can teach you to speak Thai faster than an adult if you haven't tried it.

[South]

[Bakseedaa]

The Thai's English will always be poor....dude

This is not true , my Thai girlfriend speaks better English than most native English speakers, its about Education from an early age, And the wanting to learn...

[sunnyrolfe]

Even better just import Cambodians to do the job. Why is it that an inferior(as the Thais see them) people far outclass the Thais when it comes to languages. The average moto driver could beat a Thai English teacher hands down.

[sunnyrolfe]

The Thai's English will always be poor....dude

This is not true , my Thai girlfriend speaks better English than most native English speakers, its about Education from an early age, And the wanting to learn...

Your girlfriend with all due respect is not typical of the other 60 odd million.

[toybits]

My kids are Thai Citizens. They went to Thai schools, have Thai friends and live in a Thai environment. People in the village are all Thais - but at home I speak to them in English. They speak better English than many of their Thai English teachers. My son started translating English to Thai when he was 3 years old. I would talk to him in English and he would translate what I just told him into Thai so that his friends would know what was just said. Ha ha... I am not telling you how I taught my sons English. Ha ha...

Although I'm not a teacher of any kind, (except to my daughter), it seems to me that learning English will always be a very difficult for most Thais as long as there is no immersion.

How can a Thai be expected to learn English, if they are going to spend most of their time speaking Thai with their Thai friends and never be forced to speak with native English speakers, except in class? It is going to require a concerted effort at the National level.

For example, it might be helpful if all television shows and movies have English caption.( for that matter all English shows could have Thai caption to improve everyones language skills).

All road signs, food menus, school attention broadcasts, news papers, public forums of all kinds, legal documents, mabey even the National Anthem.

It would also be helpful, if the 'powers that be' would make it easier for more English speaking people from all over the World to come and stay here. It is not an easy process with all the silly 'visa runs' and other discriminatory practices. One day they will realize that most foreigners would be willing to pay TRIPLE the visa fee, if they could just pay it at the local Police station instead of having to go to a border check point.

Also, I would not even bother teaching Thai in school, past a certain level. At some point, the entire lessen would be available only in English. Which translates to a child not even being able to graduate without good English skills. Your average bar girl probably speaks better English than most school graduates.

Of course, after you factor in the corruption, this is all just a pipe dream. I fear that ,along the way, English speaking Thais will have a way to take advantage of a non English speaking Thai, and that will be painful.