Buying A Condo In Jomtien

[Patrick66]

I am new to Thailand, only been to Pattaya 5 times, but love it there and would love to live there several months out of the year. Last week I looked at a new, finished, condo complex (fifth Jomtien) that is about 100m from the beach and next door to the Immigration office. The condo looks well constructed and, from what I gather, in a good location. The one bedroom (63sqm) I am looking at is listed for 4 million BHAT. I am a cash buyer and not interested in renting out the unit as I would keep my things there while away.

Can anyone that knows ther area give me some advise? Is 4m a reasonable asking price? Is the location desirable? Are there any hidden taxes or costs condo companies suprise buyers with? Any advise would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Patrick

[Jingthing]

That price is close to current market for that kind of location and I assume medium level quality from the look of the building.

Condos in general are relatively safe compared to houses as they have security systems.

Hidden costs? Well if the condo unit needs repair. New condos are usually managed by the builder and they are often corrupt. Down the line owners may look into kicking them out and getting new management. That can be messy. Technically if building finances are managed poorly, you can be hit with special assessments. However maintenance fees in general will be much lower than in the west.

In that particular location, if you are walking home late at night from the beach road there may be a crime risk.

Edited April 8, 2011 by Jingthing

[Patrick66]

That price is close to current market for that kind of location and I assume medium level quality from the look of the building.

Condos in general are relatively safe compared to houses as they have security systems.

Hidden costs? Well if the condo unit needs repair. New condos are usually managed by the builder and they are often corrupt. Down the line owners may look into kicking them out and getting new management. That can be messy. Technically if building finances are managed poorly, technically you can be hit with special assessments. However maintenance fees in general will be much lower than in the west.

Thanks!!

[Jingthing]

For the same money you could get a bigger, high floor good view condo in View Talay 2 with an established competent management. Not pushing that condo but it can be worth it to shop around, at least to reinforce in your mind that you made the right choice for you.

That condo you are looking at certainly would be convenient for immigration! Also shopping for produce at that Thai style market is very close down the soi.

Edited April 8, 2011 by Jingthing

[MRTELLYOUSTRAIGHT]

The View Talay projects were a smart idea. Not because they are nice looking no, they knew the Russikes were coming so based the overall design of the building to something that resembles a housing estate in pre-communist Moscow.

[FarangBuddha]

Four-million baht for a postage stamp sized "condo"...you're getting hosed. Find something for sale in the 6-7M baht range and offer them four for it. You'll be surprised...many will take it.

[Thaifan2]

Its rather expensive i agree .I have a Condo in the newly built Park Lane also in Jomtien .Its further down Jomtien about one klm from the condo you mention .Mine is only 36 sqm but has a seperate bedroom and western kitchen .The resort has a 1,800 sqm lagoon pool .I would sell mine to anyone who will give me one and a half million baht .Its in a foreign name .Transfer fee 50/50 .

[Basil B]

Suggest you find out what they will may be building across the street.

Edited April 8, 2011 by Basil B

[Jingthing]

I think that unit comps comparably to the View Talay Residences (not the towers) in very close proximity to fifth Jomtien, probably less. The only way to determine value is to see a number of different condos in different buildings. There is no zillow.com type service for Thailand, etc. Obviously, there are many pricing factors with location being universally important. As far as getting bargains, yes it's possible to find hungry buyers, but be ready to act quickly on those.

Edited April 8, 2011 by Jingthing

[Darrel]

If this finished unit is being sold by the developer then I would want to look for resales in the same building. You may find some at a discount. Is it foreign name or company? Company is worth less for resale and may not be entirely compliant with the law anyway.

Watch out for maintenance fees (from 10 to 60B per metre) and the sinking fund. There will also be a small charge for meters for new builds. Not everything you see in the unit may be included in the price, so ask and get it in writing. Get everything in writing.

Property prices in Thailand are highly negotiable. Most asking prices in Pattaya are well over the top and places (especially used ones) can stay on the market for years as a result.

Anyone who tells you otherwise probably has property for sale.

Dont automatically believe anything that anyone selling property here tells you. If you assume that it is all lies then you will never be disappointed. There are a lot of very third-rate people living here and most of them seem to become involved with property as a money-spinner at some point.

There is another building a couple of sois down (soi 8) that might be worth a look, for comparison.

I suggest that you go and look at that and other new buildings (there are loads in Pratumnak), just to get a feel for what you are being offered.

[Patrick66]

If this finished unit is being sold by the developer then I would want to look for resales in the same building. You may find some at a discount. Is it foreign name or company? Company is worth less for resale and may not be entirely compliant with the law anyway.

Watch out for maintenance fees (from 10 to 60B per metre) and the sinking fund. There will also be a small charge for meters for new builds. Not everything you see in the unit may be included in the price, so ask and get it in writing. Get everything in writing.

Property prices in Thailand are highly negotiable. Most asking prices in Pattaya are well over the top and places (especially used ones) can stay on the market for years as a result.

Anyone who tells you otherwise probably has property for sale.

Dont automatically believe anything that anyone selling property here tells you. If you assume that it is all lies then you will never be disappointed. There are a lot of very third-rate people living here and most of them seem to become involved with property as a money-spinner at some point.

There is another building a couple of sois down (soi 8) that might be worth a look, for comparison.

I suggest that you go and look at that and other new buildings (there are loads in Pratumnak), just to get a feel for what you are being offered.

This condo complex just finished, they are still doing some touch up painting, and of course there is only one 1 bedroom unit left....sure sure. It is a 7 story complex with 76 units.

CAM fee is 30BHT/sqm

Sinking Fund 500BHT/sqm paid once upon transfer

Developer is Shiwalai Inter House Co. ltd

[Darrel]

This condo complex just finished, they are still doing some touch up painting, and of course there is only one 1 bedroom unit left....sure sure. It is a 7 story complex with 76 units.

CAM fee is 30BHT/sqm

Sinking Fund 500BHT/sqm paid once upon transfer

Developer is Shiwalai Inter House Co. ltd

Those figures sound average for a small/medium build. The purchase price is high, of course. You can get a 3 bedroom town-house in many parts of the UK for that, or indeed 2 houses in other parts of Pattaya or 4 houses in the north of Thailand (though you would need a Thai person's name to buy them, of course).

I've never heard of that developer, but that doesnt mean much as I'm not very interested in new builds.

My main concern with condo property in and around Pattaya is that a lot of it is owned by a relatively small number of people. I've lost track of the number of people I've met who own 2, 5, 20, 75, 150 condos here. Most of them seem to have one or more units for sale, in fact many of them seem to have all their units for sale though they are mostly hanging on for a high price. This seems suspiciously like a large bubble to me.

[Jingthing]

Forget to mention, my reaction to the price was assuming you were buying in a foreign name and not playing any games with company ownership. I also assumed it was finished inside. I wouldn't suggest buying a condo any other way than directly under your name. That is a huge advantage for foreigners to buy a condo over a house (besides security). Everyone's got an opinion but personally I don't think there is currently a bubble in the local condo market for foreigner named condos. I say that as someone who has experienced REAL bubble real estate markets (in California and Florida where I dodged a bullet by not buying at the top). I think it's a normal market, with balance for buyers and sellers. I could be wrong!

Edited April 8, 2011 by Jingthing

[Darrel]

.. personally I don't think there is currently a bubble in the local condo market for foreigner named condos......... I think it's a normal market, with balance for buyers and sellers.

Do you really think that a "normal" market has so many places for sale for so long at such high prices? We are talking about years for many of these units. In the UK the general assumption is that if a place doesnt sell in 2 months it is overpriced.

And is it reasonable that a small condo near (not on) the beach in Jomtien should be selling for the price of 2 or 4 houses, when just a few yards away there are large empty plots waiting to be buit on, and there are untold kilometers of virgin beachfront land within 15 minutes drive?

I am convinced that condo prices in Pattaya are being artificially supported by the unusually high proportion people who own many units.

[toenail]

I am always on the fence, trying to decide which way to go - buy or just keep renting. After working and living here for 6 years, I certainly have discovered many "cracks"/ negative things when living in Pattay (or any city) verses one who only visits. The first thing I suggest is to live here 3 months in your "future" neighborhood before you buy. (better yet, see if you can rent at the place you want to buy). I have rented 4 different condos since I have been here (Naklua -Wogomat Beach area and North Pattaya) and I always discover the positive and negative sides once moved in. I also like the advice I have read on variouis forums about buying... move into a place that is already established - less surprises and one can observe how good the owners maintain the place. Next, if you have a view at a distance, don't believe that the empty lot infront will always be empty. The apartment/condo complexes I have stayed in have mostly been on the quiet side/ you don't want to move into a hallway that is a party get-away.

[Tolley]

I can't see any real adavantage in buying in Pattaya unless you are buying for your wife/girlfriend and her security.

There are zillions of traps when it comes to buying and no real advantages.

Renting is so much easier and less hassle in the long run.

[Jingthing]

.. personally I don't think there is currently a bubble in the local condo market for foreigner named condos......... I think it's a normal market, with balance for buyers and sellers.

Do you really think that a "normal" market has so many places for sale for so long at such high prices? We are talking about years for many of these units. In the UK the general assumption is that if a place doesnt sell in 2 months it is overpriced.

And is it reasonable that a small condo near (not on) the beach in Jomtien should be selling for the price of 2 or 4 houses, when just a few yards away there are large empty plots waiting to be buit on, and there are untold kilometers of virgin beachfront land within 15 minutes drive?

I am convinced that condo prices in Pattaya are being artificially supported by the unusually high proportion people who own many units.

It's hard to say. I get your point about normal. No, it's not the same dynamic as a normal market in the west. By normal, I meant that my strong impression is that there is good degree of price stability for units that are actually sold and there is neither a bubble of appreciation going on here nor a massive crash such as happened in Florida condos. I strongly feel since there has been no price bubble, there is nothing to crash from. Sure average sale prices could trend down sometimes in a mild fashion, again, that is part of a normal market. The dynamics are very different here. That's for sure. Most foreign owned condos are paid in cash which means most probably can hold for years with very little carrying costs hoping to get their price some day. I do think motivated sellers DO lower their price here like anywhere. The international factor here is also big. Over time some nationalities buying power goes down and others go up. As far as the percentage of units available statistically vs. the potential buyers, not sure how anyone would accurately know those numbers.

Edited April 10, 2011 by Jingthing

[Awohalitsiktoli]

[

To OP: There are a few condos in that area, one in particular, you really should avoid. If you are thinking about buying a condo in a place with the initials TC (soi 7) think again (bad move). Most units in Pattaya and Jomtien are grossly overpriced (for sale and rent). But it is a strange market that seems to find a way to keep from crashing. If you want to find a fair deal, you have to avoid all of the real estate agencies and talk directly with owners. Good luck!

[Jingthing]

Someone please explain to me how a market that has never bubbled crashes? Do you seriously think a new development selling a unit like the OP describes for 4 million baht is going to suddenly settle for 2 million baht? Sure if five years ago similar units went for 1 million, but actually more like 3 million baht I think. I do agree if you have the time and the ready cash there are good deals to be had but I don't really buy the grossly overpriced market line. Just my opinion. Different opinions make markets.

There are always people talking down the market here, but there is often a strong smell of sour grapes you can detect hidden in their text. Like some don't have the cash to buy a condo and are wishing they crash so they can pick up one almost free. Again, no bubble, no crash. OK, if there is a civil war here, then it will crash.

Edited April 10, 2011 by Jingthing

[guzzi850m2]

Jt is right in my opinion. Why should the market crash? Now we see more Indians and Russians here so there is a new market from these Nationalities alone. Pattaya continues to develop, good or bad have been discussed in another forum, good I think.

The expat community is huge here, some arrive some leave but I think the expat population slowly clime despite some posters doomsday talking in other forums.

I myself live in a house because I can't afford a 300 m2 size condo and have a wife & son so we like our own garden.

[Awohalitsiktoli]

Someone please explain to me how a market that has never bubbled crashes? Do you seriously think a new development selling a unit like the OP describes for 4 million baht is going to suddenly settle for 2 million baht? Sure if five years ago similar units went for 1 million, but actually more like 3 million baht I think. I do agree if you have the time and the ready cash there are good deals to be had but I don't really buy the grossly overpriced market line. Just my opinion. Different opinions make markets.

There are always people talking down the market here, but there is often a strong smell of sour grapes you can detect hidden in their text. Like some don't have the cash to buy a condo and are wishing they crash so they can pick up one almost free. Again, no bubble, no crash. OK, if there is a civil war here, then it will crash.

Of course, not every situation is the same, but I do know condo units that were 1 million ten years ago that are now 3 million or more (the only thing that changed is time and real estate hype). You say it has "never bubbled." Maybe it has but people did not see it because of the massive "hype." I think the market is on shaky ground, moving up and down around the "bubble." I would be shocked to see prices increase further. Real estate investors were very lucky that an increasing # of Thais decided to buy into the market along with Russians. The timing was perfect giving all of the problems in the country. But that can only last so long. There are too many empty/unsold units. The global economy is still in a tailspin. And real estate hype cannot inflate the market forever. Eventually reality will kick in (you would think Ocean 1 would have been that reality) and the 3 million baht cube will sell once again for 1 million baht, IMHO. When? Your guess is as good as mine. This is a strange market.

[Awohalitsiktoli]

Someone please explain to me how a market that has never bubbled crashes? Do you seriously think a new development selling a unit like the OP describes for 4 million baht is going to suddenly settle for 2 million baht? Sure if five years ago similar units went for 1 million, but actually more like 3 million baht I think. I do agree if you have the time and the ready cash there are good deals to be had but I don't really buy the grossly overpriced market line. Just my opinion. Different opinions make markets.

There are always people talking down the market here, but there is often a strong smell of sour grapes you can detect hidden in their text. Like some don't have the cash to buy a condo and are wishing they crash so they can pick up one almost free. Again, no bubble, no crash. OK, if there is a civil war here, then it will crash.

Of course, not every situation is the same, but I do know condo units that were 1 million ten years ago that are now 3 million or more (the only thing that changed is time and real estate hype). You say it has "never bubbled." Maybe it has but people did not see it because of the massive "hype." I think the market is on shaky ground, moving up and down around the "bubble." I would be shocked to see prices increase further. Real estate investors were very lucky that an increasing # of Thais decided to buy into the market along with Russians. The timing was perfect giving all of the problems in the country. But that can only last so long. There are too many empty/unsold units. The global economy is still in a tailspin. And real estate hype cannot inflate the market forever. Eventually reality will kick in (you would think Ocean 1 would have been that reality) and the 3 million baht cube will sell once again for 1 million baht, IMHO. When? Your guess is as good as mine. This is a strange market.

[morphic]

The vast majority of property transactions in Pattaya are for off plan, new build projects. In fact, it is almost impossible to sell a "used" condo or house. The reason for this is that owners are extremely unrealistic. But even if they were being realistic they would need to ask for considerably higher than they paid because transaction costs (taxes and agents fees) are very high, in order to breakeven. What this means is that if your plan is to buy to make a profit then you need to buy off plan and then flip very quickly. The days of rampant price increases are well behind us so that chance of a making a quick buck is now very low. So unless you really think you've found your dream property, think very carefully before buying as you may well be stuck with the property forever.

Now, this picture may change if you are buying to rent out, but then you will need good knowledge of which areas and what kind of properties are easy to rent for a good price and what your expenses are going to be over time.

I had been planning to buy but changed my mind for several reasons. One is that the quality of construction here seems to be shockingly poor. Walls are paper thin, materials are cheap and nasty, designs are plain boring, furnishing where provided always looks cheap and ugly, the list goes on. Add to that, a lot of what I was told, like sizes etc turned out to be "inaccurate" so that I have developed a real trust issue in handing over money to the spivs that seem to dominate the business here.

Buyer beware, as they say, but times that sentiment by a thousand over here, unless you want to join the ranks of the idiot foreigners that regret falling for the hype.

[Darrel]

There clearly must be something very odd about any property market where places stay on sale for years on end. This just isnt normal.

I think that the entire condo market in Pattaya is warped by the large percentage of people who own many units, and who have no real motive for selling them because they cost relatively little to own (no property taxes) and they dont need the money and couldnt get any real return anywhere else anyway. So if you dont need the cash or the income, you may as well just keep the condo on the market at a high price and hope that a farang pigeon will land on your balcony one day, and perhaps get some rental income in the meantime as well. And that is exactly what the owners here are doing.

And in the end you only need to compare the cost of a house with the cost of a condo. It is all very out of kilter. Most condo prices need to drop perhaps 30-40% to be at any sort of sensible level. And the proof is that many units sold are only sold at a big discount on average asking prices. All the ones I have seen recently have been in this group.

I am prepared to pay perhaps 20-30% below average asking prices for a reasonable unit that I could live in indefinitely, on the assumption that if other all units drop to a reasonable price in a "crash" I wont actually lose very much.

[Darrel]

..... they would need to ask for considerably higher than they paid because transaction costs (taxes and agents fees) are very high.....

I disagree. Taxes are around 6% (depending on how long the owner has owned the unit etc.) which is often split 50/50. Agents fees are negotiable (which means they start absurdly high and its up to you to argue them down). So if I was selling I would only expect it to cost me around 5-6% to do so. This is not high by European standards.

...the quality of construction here seems to be shockingly poor. Walls are paper thin, materials are cheap and nasty, designs are plain boring, furnishing where provided always looks cheap and ugly ................ the spivs that seem to dominate the business here.

Agreed, agreed, agreed, agreed. I would add to that the lunatic fringe of condo owners/developers who think that renovating a place and putting in disco lights and brothel paraphernalia is adding value. They are just plain nuts.

I have seen expensive renovated condos here to which I would be ashamed to take anyone with any sort of good taste.

[sotsira]

To Patrick66,

I've been living here for 8 years and have bought and sold condos during my time here, my advice to you would be to look at many units that are similar in standard of finish

and size in the area. Then you can see the real value of purchase.

As mentioned in other posts the condo ownership whether it being foreign or company owned plays a big part in the value and the ability to resale easily again.

Also the running costs for utility charges and annual maintenance ( by the condo management) need to be considered too.

The description of the unit in your OP seems overpriced for 63sqm unless it's in foreign ownership and not company, and is fully furnished to a high standard. but even then i would be reluctant at 4M Baht.

If you don't mind buying a unit that is 7-8 years old try looking at the Viewtalay2 Blg A for a similar sized unit in the region of 3M Baht.

Or for slightly higher prices have a look in the Viewtalay 5 Building which are 3-5 years old.

Both these buildings are near the beach, are well maintained and have low running costs.

Also the Viewtalay Residence low rise buildings at the end of Soi 5 are worth a look too.

[totonjoy]

This is all good, interesting stuff. Can those in the know please explain the disadvantages of buying a condo in a company name?

[ThaiBob]

I agree with others the real estate market here is unique and like no other I've seen but as far as a "bubble", who really knows? When there truly was a bubble after the 1998 Asian economic "flu" the government stepped-in and waived the 49% foreign ownership quota in Bangkok and Pattaya for new condo projects. The real estate market took off. A few years back after the "bird" flu, yellow shirts, red shirts, etc., there was talk of doing the same thing, but it was just talk as the market seems to have healed itself. There is an influx of new buyers as the old dynamic of retired American, Aussies and Brits seems to be fading. and that long talked about Casino gets built. Property values then will really soar.

Why can VT market properties without marketing properties? No advertising, charging by the floor height and not the view, etc.. Why does gas cost so much when there is no gas shortage? Why do used cars cost so much in Thailand? Why, why, why?

Edited April 11, 2011 by Rimmer
Speculation

[sotsira]

This is all good, interesting stuff. Can those in the know please explain the disadvantages of buying a condo in a company name?

Most company owned condos are companies that have been set up by a lawyer for the sole purpose to allow a loophole in thai law for a purchase to take place.

These companies are stagnant and cannot operate for any purpose other than to own properties. But they do require annual Tax Returns.

The stigma behind this is that they are not legally bound and could under future government policies become a dead loss to the owners,

Recently in India this happened to many foreigners and they lost their properties outright due to the fact that they had illegal companies set up.

This is because under thai law a property cannot be owned by a foreigner 100% only 49% and 51% Thai.

So in a condo building that has 100 units only 49 can be purchased by foreigners the other 51 can only be purchased by Thais or companies.

Even when a lawyer sets up a company for a purchase to take place only 49% of the shareholders can be foreign and 51 % Thai so in theory

a foreigner can only own 49% of his company hence his condo or house.

[johnnyk]

The View Talay projects were a smart idea. Not because they are nice looking no, they knew the Russikes were coming so based the overall design of the building to something that resembles a housing estate in pre-communist Moscow.

Like the ones built pre-1917 by the Tsar and his henchmen?