Thai Police, Interpol And US FBI Jointly Raid Bangkok Ploenchit Office

[Nawtier]

Joncat is dysfunctional....yet he comes on here to chat to foreigners....

[Arkady]

If they are based in Spain, they cannot be licensed by the UK's IFA which only covers firms and individuals based in mainland UK. Even if they were licensed in the UK and calling from there, only clients resident in the UK would be covered by the UK's financial regulations. If there are licensed in Spain, which is extremely doubtful, under an EEA reciprocal agreement they would be permitted to sell certain products (usually the most basic ones like life insurance) to clients based in the UK, if the UK client has solicited the call, but would not be permitted to cold call outside their own licensed jurisdiction. Thailand has no reciprocal agreement on sales of financial products with any other countries. Offering any kind of advice to clients in Thailand that involves any type of securities or insurance products is illegal under the SEC Act, the Life Insurance Act or both with penalties of jail time and substantial fines.

The important thing to understand is that you are not covered by any UK or European legislation when you buy financial products even from a UK licensed or formerly UK licensed IFA whether they are based in the UK, Thailand or anywhere else. Most of the ones claiming to be UK licensed aren't and never were but, if they were, it makes no difference. They make large sums of money using sales methods that are not permitted in the UK selling financial products that are not permitted in the UK. Many of these financial products come from the stables of reputable UK firms, or firms that are sold to the unwary as being reputable UK firms, but are issued from offshore subsidiaries in the Channel Islands, Isle of Man, or some other offshore jurisdiction that is no covered by UK financial regulations. You are, however, covered by Thai legislation if the salesman is operating in Thailand and can file a report with the SEC and the police against any expat "IFAs" who sell you crappy, self serving financial products. Most of them don't have work permits in addition to not having Thai financial advisory licenses and they and their employers are also not paying full Thai tax and their companies may not be registered in Thailand. All of this can add up to substantial jail time and fines of up to 10,000 baht a day for each day in breach of the SEC Act. They rely on the fact that few foreign clients dare to complain and that the larger ones are paying off the local police. So the rot continues.

Edited February 14, 2012 by sbk

[DarwinK]

Thanks Arkady. I absolutely believe you, and what you've written makes sense. But "pinebits" wrote that he had an IFA who's been here 20 years and is licensed. Since I've been looking for one for years, I guess hope springs eternal. However, I haven't heard from pinebits yet with the name of his licensed IFA. If he does let me know, I'll definitely do as you suggest and first check it out with the Thai SEC and the FSA. But maybe pinebits has figured out that his IFA isn't licensed after all....

Cheers, Darwin

Edited to correst name of poster to "pinebits"

Hi, I've been looking for a licensed IFA here in Thailand for some time. If you don't mind, could you pm me the website or contact details of yours?

Thanks, Darwin

IFA's or independent financial advisors are totally different from "boiler room". IFA's don't sell bogus stock...rather they offer, life or health insurance, offer you advise on pensions, mortgage. Help you establish an offshore account. I guess, you've acquainted yourself with non licensed IFA's here in Bangkok that is why you thought that IFA's are like those people who works in a boiler room. That is not fair. My advisor has been here in Thailand for 20 years and they are licensed.

Licensing of financial advisors, whether the so called independent ones or otherwise is always done in the jurisdiction in which they operate. Therefore the only way that financial advisors working in Thailand can be licensed is if they are licensed by the Thai SEC. To be licensed by the SEC you have to work for an approved firm and pass an exam in Thai. For a financial advisory firm to be approved by the SEC, it is necessary to apply before registering the firm, since they only want clean firms that are not in other businesses applying. The SEC will scrutinise the financial qualifications of the principals, the business plan and particularly the fee structure. Fees must be totally transparent and reasonable. SEC doesn't permit Thai financial advisors or mutual fund companies to charge front end loads, trailers, exit fees, early redemption fees or any of the other hidden fees that are charged by the expat "IFAs". Most of these "IFAs" are British and the SEC has never licensed any British financial advisors with the right to deal with individual clients. Therefore, all the British "IFAs" working in Thailand who claim to be licensed are lying, although some other well qualified foreigners have been licensed. The SEC looks for a recognized financial qualification, such as an MBA in finance, an MSc in finance, a CFP, CFA or CPA. Needless to say most of the former English teacher "IFAs", or even the former insurance salesmen, would not be considered by the SEC.

The UK's IFA only licenses financial advisors who work in the UK for an approved firm domiciled in the UK and they are only licensed to provide advice to clients who are resident in the UK. In the UK's Financial Services and Markets Act the UK is defined as mainland UK. Thus the IFA doesn't license individuals or firms based in the Channel Islands or Isle of Man which are covered by their own considerably laxer financial ordinances. It is possible that some of the expat financial advisors working in Thailand have previously been licensed by the IFA but that licensing expired the moment they ceased to be working in mainland UK for an approved firm domiciled in mainland UK. Most, however, if they have any experience of selling financial products have done nothing more sophisticated that sell all of life insurance policies on commission only without a salary. If you don't believe me, call the IFA and the Thai SEC.

Edited April 13, 2011 by DarwinK

[BOS2BKK]

No mate, Interpol and FBI being involved will make it harder for these guys to get off.

Most Americans are probably not aware, but in 2004 congress passed an expat felony bill. It was actually passed to address the gray area occupied by military contractors who, because of SOF agreements. could not be prosecuted locally, but because they were civilians were not subject to UCMJ... However the law is not limited to that use. It can be applied to anyone, for anything.

Anyway....

You can be prosecuted by the US federal government for any violation of a US felony with a minimum sentence of greater than one year REGARDLESS of where the crime occurred. So with the FBI involved, any US citizens can be prosecuted by the feds regardless of what they get away with Thailand.

Basically you have to be a good boy no matter where you are.

Edited April 13, 2011 by BOS2BKK

[hydrostatic]

Arkady, many thanks for the comprehensive reply. I'll just go and change my number. I think I'd be better off putting the money under the mattress and buying a dog that looks like a bulldog chewing a wasp and has a really rough bark.

[Arkady]

In my haste I referred to the UK regulator, the FSA, as the IFA in my earlier post. Sorry for any confusion.

It's extremely unlikely that pinebits' financial advisor has been licensed in Thailand for 20 years. The SEC was only created by the SEC Act in 1992 and it took them many years to come out with the licensing regulations for financial advisors working for independent financial advisory firms who are permitted to deal with individual clients, as the first regulations only covered financial advisory firms giving advice to corporates. Prior to the SEC Act only finance & securities companies were licensed to provide financial advice and advice provided legally to individuals was only about Thai securities and deposits. Many of the advisors have a carefully cultivated veneer of respectability through membership of clubs and foreign chambers of commmerce (that accept any member who pays their fees) which may well lure the financially unsophisticated into believing they are licensed in Thailand. However, scrutiny of whatever Thai companies they purport to work out of, if they even bother having a company or a work permit, will reveal that these are companies are without any type of financial advisory license and just have the boiler plate memorandum and articles of association that allow them to do only those general trading businesses that don't require a license. Most claim to the authorities they are providing business consulting services and only show a token amount of their income to the Thai Revenue Department, since their revenues are nearly all booked offshore through tax havens.

If pinebits should suddenly remember the name of his licensed IFA, one can easily check whether he is licensed or not. That part of the SEC's website is not very user friendly and requires a knowledge of Thai, although once you find your way into it you can input names in English to see if they are currently licensed. Alternatively you can call the SEC's call centre and they will check for you. You can also check quite easily if he is or ever has been licensed by the FSA in the UK (at least since it was created in 2000), although the licensing will be invalid, if he or you are resident outside the UK. The FSA is very user friendly and has helpful people in its call centre who are very au fait with the scams of the fake IFAs working overseas who pretend to be licensed by them. Many of the European regulators are also very helpful and often cooperate well. There have been many cases where local regulators in Europe have helped British expats sue the fake British IFAs for giving unlicensed and inappropriate advice and got them a restitution of their investors before the scamsters helped themselves to the front end loads and trailer fees. Hopefully Thailand will one day do the same and flush out all the unlicensed dross along with their weird funds managed by undisclosed related parties and other rip off products.

Thanks Arkady. I absolutely believe you, and what you've written makes sense. But "pinebits" wrote that he had an IFA who's been here 20 years and is licensed. Since I've been looking for one for years, I guess hope springs eternal. However, I haven't heard from pinebits yet with the name of his licensed IFA. If he does let me know, I'll definitely do as you suggest and first check it out with the Thai SEC and the FSA. But maybe pinebits has figured out that his IFA isn't licensed after all....

Cheers, Darwin

Edited to correst name of poster to "pinebits"

Hi, I've been looking for a licensed IFA here in Thailand for some time. If you don't mind, could you pm me the website or contact details of yours?

Thanks, Darwin

IFA's or independent financial advisors are totally different from "boiler room". IFA's don't sell bogus stock...rather they offer, life or health insurance, offer you advise on pensions, mortgage. Help you establish an offshore account. I guess, you've acquainted yourself with non licensed IFA's here in Bangkok that is why you thought that IFA's are like those people who works in a boiler room. That is not fair. My advisor has been here in Thailand for 20 years and they are licensed.

Licensing of financial advisors, whether the so called independent ones or otherwise is always done in the jurisdiction in which they operate. Therefore the only way that financial advisors working in Thailand can be licensed is if they are licensed by the Thai SEC. To be licensed by the SEC you have to work for an approved firm and pass an exam in Thai. For a financial advisory firm to be approved by the SEC, it is necessary to apply before registering the firm, since they only want clean firms that are not in other businesses applying. The SEC will scrutinise the financial qualifications of the principals, the business plan and particularly the fee structure. Fees must be totally transparent and reasonable. SEC doesn't permit Thai financial advisors or mutual fund companies to charge front end loads, trailers, exit fees, early redemption fees or any of the other hidden fees that are charged by the expat "IFAs". Most of these "IFAs" are British and the SEC has never licensed any British financial advisors with the right to deal with individual clients. Therefore, all the British "IFAs" working in Thailand who claim to be licensed are lying, although some other well qualified foreigners have been licensed. The SEC looks for a recognized financial qualification, such as an MBA in finance, an MSc in finance, a CFP, CFA or CPA. Needless to say most of the former English teacher "IFAs", or even the former insurance salesmen, would not be considered by the SEC.

The UK's IFA only licenses financial advisors who work in the UK for an approved firm domiciled in the UK and they are only licensed to provide advice to clients who are resident in the UK. In the UK's Financial Services and Markets Act the UK is defined as mainland UK. Thus the IFA doesn't license individuals or firms based in the Channel Islands or Isle of Man which are covered by their own considerably laxer financial ordinances. It is possible that some of the expat financial advisors working in Thailand have previously been licensed by the IFA but that licensing expired the moment they ceased to be working in mainland UK for an approved firm domiciled in mainland UK. Most, however, if they have any experience of selling financial products have done nothing more sophisticated that sell all of life insurance policies on commission only without a salary. If you don't believe me, call the IFA and the Thai SEC.

Edited April 13, 2011 by Arkady

[andrewdrummond]

If they are based in Spain, they cannot be licensed by the UK's IFA which only covers firms and individuals based in mainland UK. Even if they were licensed in the UK and calling from there, only clients resident in the UK would be covered by the UK's financial regulations. If there are licensed in Spain, which is extremely doubtful, under an EEA reciprocal agreement they would be permitted to sell certain products (usually the most basic ones like life insurance) to clients based in the UK, if the UK client has solicited the call, but would not be permitted to cold call outside their own licensed jurisdiction. Thailand has no reciprocal agreement on sales of financial products with any other countries. Offering any kind of advice to clients in Thailand that involves any type of securities or insurance products is illegal under the SEC Act, the Life Insurance Act or both with penalties of jail time and substantial fines.

The important thing to understand is that you are not covered by any UK or European legislation when you buy financial products even from a UK licensed or formerly UK licensed IFA whether they are based in the UK, Thailand or anywhere else. Most of the ones claiming to be UK licensed aren't and never were but, if they were, it makes no difference. They make large sums of money using sales methods that are not permitted in the UK selling financial products that are not permitted in the UK. Many of these financial products come from the stables of reputable UK firms, or firms that are sold to the unwary as being reputable UK firms, but are issued from offshore subsidiaries in the Channel Islands, Isle of Man, or some other offshore jurisdiction that is no covered by UK financial regulations. You are, however, covered by Thai legislation if the salesman is operating in Thailand and can file a report with the SEC and the police against any expat "IFAs" who sell you crappy, self serving financial products. Most of them don't have work permits in addition to not having Thai financial advisory licenses and they and their employers are also not paying full Thai tax and their companies may not be registered in Thailand. All of this can add up to substantial jail time and fines of up to 10,000 baht a day for each day in breach of the SEC Act. They rely on the fact that few foreign clients dare to complain and that the larger ones are paying off the local police. So the rot continues.

Spot on as usial Arkady. I had a giggle at your earlier reference to the Football Fund

'Tell me more, tell me more

Was it love at first sight uh hu, uh huh!'

[jamesthefirst]

I have recently heard through the grapevine that one of the foreigners arrested, an Australian, has died in prison. Can anyone confirm this?

[intheknow2]

I have recently heard through the grapevine that one of the foreigners arrested, an Australian, has died in prison. Can anyone confirm this?

That would be a true !!

I spoke to a person today about this fact ! and they did confirm it is true the guy had a blood clot.

he did have medication for the problem but i don't think they would have checked ?

With such a big holiday in the mist and people to to arrest for getting there tits out !!! { too busy !! } they forgot to give out the information to the news maybe they will get it done next month

Edited April 19, 2011 by intheknow2

[TAWP]

No body seems to mind when they frequent the well known establishments built with boiler room money including prominent Irish bars and Mexican restaurants in Sukhumvit and Silom.

Personally if I know a place has boiler room connections I avoid it like the plague.

One of Andrew Drummond's recent articles alluded to the names of these places and the people that own them, unfortunately he seems to have removed it from his site.

I think part of the problem is lack of knowledge.

I would love a proper overview of all establishment and companies that are fully or partly financed by boiler room scams or managed by those involved in those activities.

If you have this information, publicize it at a location that cannot be taken down. Or contact me over PM with a write-up and I can give it to someone that will give it to someone (i.e. wash the post from direct involvement) and publish it on a website that will not be censored.

[Thaiered]

Thai police, Interpol and US FBI jointly raid Ploenchit office

Headline sums it up I think - 1 of the 3 is out of their depth, question for 10 points: which 1??

[SiamRose]

How can you tell; from all the buff on-line and the many phone calls made to you, that these companies are genuine or not?

They are ALL scams. Especially the ones who advertise here on TV "My financial advisor, licensed for 20 years, blah blah blah ..."

Do your own investment, it isn't difficult.