Interview With Robert Thurman

[sabaijai]

'Dalai Lama is having a jolly time resigning from everything'

TNN | Apr 10, 2011, 05.49am IST

Times of India

Its been 50 years since Robert Thurman was ordained as a monk by a reluctant Dalai Lama. Thurman, professor of religion and Sanskrit at Columbia University in New York, is one of the worlds leading scholars of Buddhism. On a visit to Delhi,he talked about Tibetan politics, a new Nalanda movement and his Hollywood star daughter Uma to Shobhan Saxena. Excerpts:

The Nalanda Project is trying to revive the ancient seat of Buddhist learning in Bihar. But can a university be recreated when the society that sustained it no longer exists?

In the context of India emerging,it will be like the renewal of the library of Alexandria, which they are doing in Egypt. Of course,it wont be like the ancient monastic university of Nalanda but it will be a unique beacon of the traditional civilization that influenced Asia.People think of Buddhism only as a world religion and wonder how can it have a university.But if you understand Buddhism the way some of us do then its more concerned with wisdom and nature of reality.So if you are of the view that global warming is real and consumer industrialization and militarization is a threat to the future of the planet, then we need some kind of inner technology for people to control themselves. So, if Nalanda, which was famous all over Asia,is revived with the elements of a modern university with a new kind of core curriculum with the objective of transforming people ethically,psychologically and physically this would be a global contribution of an extraordinary kind.Thats what brought people to Nalanda in ancient times.It wasnt just religious.

But Buddhism has practically vanished from India and emerging India may have little interest in the values you talk about

Buddhism as a separate religious movement has vanished.But after Buddhism as an institutional presence was gone, Hinduism began to take over the sites that Buddhism had and they began to have celibate monastic life just as Buddhists did. They put these mutts where you had the viharas and yogic traditions and vegetarianism became part of Hinduism.So the influence of Buddhist tradition on society is still huge. These values of self-control, gentleness, tolerance of others, and even ahimsa which you find on Ashokas pillars influenced by Buddhism are still very strong and thats what makes India very distinctive.So that element of Buddhism is still alive in India and its needed more than ever.Whats emerging India going to contribute to the world Just compete with China to make more cheap goods and take away more jobs from industrialized and unionized countries and pollute themselves I dont think so.India has a unique thing.Apart from wealth and confidence it has self-control, yoga, spirituality and pluralism and tolerance.The Nalanda movement should not be about creating new Harvards but to recreate something that India had.

Outside India, the Nalanda tradition was maintained by Tibetans,but the Dalai Lama is being kept out of this project.Does it make sense?

He is out for the moment. He is happy being kept out as he is having a jolly time resigning from everything. But it's ironic that Tibetan Buddhists are being kept out of the project. Amartya Sen (who heads the project) and company see the Dalai Lama as some kind of pope or something. They have not read any of his books. They dont know what a great scholar he is.

And now hes decided to retire. What does that mean for Tibet and China?

He decided to retire a long time ago but the Tibetans are reluctant to face it, but now he has formalized it. It's a good thing in the sense that it's a demonstration that democracy is preferable in the modern time. Now, he can be more free to be an academic, a religious leader or a guru or whatever he wants to do. On the other hand, maybe, China would now say he is not doing politics anymore so we can talk to him. So that could be helpful. Now, foreign leaders can meet him more easily as they dont have to worry about pressure from China because he is not associated with government in exile anymore but it may weaken the role of government in exile as their prime minister may have less (of a) reception in the corridors of powers.

The other Tibetan leader in exile,the Karmapa Lama has been involved in many controversies.Is there a role for him in the future?

I think the young Karmapa has been very unfairly treated. But the Tibetan community almost entirely supports him. In the past in Tibet, there was a little bit of rivalry between the Dalai Lama and Karmapa, but the 17th Karmapa is so close to the Dalai Lama he is like his spiritual son. The whole thing about the Karmapa was very unjust and he was cleared of all charges. That's sad and unfortunate but that will blow over. Now, since the Dalai Lama has written out the political role out of the constitution,it doesnt really matter who succeeds him.

How and why did you became a Buddhist?

I am a bad Buddhist. I was not religious as a nominal Christian. I really never believed in a creator god etc but I thought Jesus was nice. I left on a pilgrimage to India, met different swamis and sufis and all kinds of mystics and I felt India had the knowledge still. Then I met the Tibetans and though them Buddhist monks. This fired my intellect rather than my religious fervor.

But you decided to become a monk.

Initially the Dalai Lama was reluctant. He took time to look me over but when I went back to America I stopped being a monk after some time because there was no support around. We didn't even have Hare Krishna people back then. There was only me -- a funny guy in monk robes. My daughter (actress Uma Thurman) later said I looked like Henry Miller in drag. So I went back to Harvard and studied.

Any particular reason you chose Uma as a name for your famous daughter?

Uma has both a Sanskrit and Tibetan name. I was reading Kumarasmbhava by Kalidasa at the time she was born. It was so beautiful, the description of the Himalayas and the courtship of Shiva and Uma. It's the best poetry in the world. So we gave her that name. We brought her to India as an infant when I came here to finish my Ph D dissertation. She likes India and she has been back here many times. Uma is Uma. Uma helps out with Tibet House (in New York) but she doesnt want to be what her parents are.

[khaowong1]

I have a hard time understanding Mahayana Buddhism. I guess you can just come and go as a monk whenever you want. I have a lot of respect for the Dalai Lama but the rest of the lama's I just don't understand. I'll try harder.

[mrdome]

I believe there is a big difference between Western monks and doing this in a culture that has never seen this before and won't support it and being a monk in Asia. What is it that you just don't understand, khaowong1?

[Jawnie]

No, you can't just come and go being a monk in Mahayana. Thurman gave it up and admits being a bad Buddhist. People give up on it, for good or bad reasons - does that not happen with Thai monks? But, Mahayana, like Thai Buddhism, allows lay people to take vows for shorter or longer periods, although I don't think that was Thurman's intention when he was ordained. Does not Thai Buddhism allow people to take temporary or short term vows, ie., vows which are not life-long, but for shorter, designated periods?

I have a hard time understanding Mahayana Buddhism. I guess you can just come and go as a monk whenever you want. I have a lot of respect for the Dalai Lama but the rest of the lama's I just don't understand. I'll try harder.