Valium Or Hash

[Neeranam]

What do the amateur doctors out there think is better for an alcoholic who is wanting to stop drinking?

Drug treatment centres in Thailand don't even allow smoking cigarettes, telling all addicts to quit smoking as it is so bad. They are allowed to drink though, after a small length of time clean from hard drugs and cigarettes. This is government policy.

Alcoholics are fed valium and really pressured into quitting smoking. Hash is a definite no.

Forgetting the law, what do you think is best for an addict or alkie?

Valium and other benzodiazepines(esp Xanax, the most evil drug know to man) and anti-depressants are handed out to alkies in Thailand like smarties, whereas in the west

they are NEVER given to anyone with an addiction history.

I believe that coming off all things are best in the longrun.

Myself, I gave up cocaine and amphetamines first, then alcohol, then valium. now I am working on the cigs.

For me, the alcohol and the valium were the worst, and these are legal - alcohol on tv, valium is promoted to doctors by drug companies, with the corrupt doctors (most of them) handing it out like vitamin c.

If it came to a choice, hash is much much much better for the alcoholic, imho.

BTW, I don't smoke hash and am agaist the illegal use of it. They should make it legal though in Thailand, like many countries that are usually 30 years ahead of Thailand in other medical matters are doing.

Edited September 27, 2005 by Neeranam

[pedro01]

What do the amateur doctors out there think is better for an alcoholic who is wanting to stop drinking?

Drug treatment centres in Thailand don't even allow smoking cigarettes, telling all addicts to quit smoking as it is so bad. They are allowed to  drink though, after a small length of time clean from hard drugs and cigarettes. This is government policy.

Alcoholics are fed valium and really pressured into quitting smoking. Hash is a definite no.

Forgetting the law, what do you think is best for an addict or alkie?

Valium and other benzodiazepines(esp Xanax, the most evil drug know to man) and anti-depressants are handed out to alkies in Thailand like smarties, whereas in the west

they are NEVER given to anyone with an addiction history.

I believe that coming off all things are best in the longrun.

Myself, I gave up cocaine and amphetamines first, then alcohol, then valium. now I am working on the cigs.

For me, the alcohol and the valium were the worst, and these are legal  - alcohol on tv, valium is promoted to doctors by drug companies, with the corrupt doctors (most of them) handing it out like vitamin c.

If it came to a choice, hash is much much much better for the alcoholic, imho.

BTW, I don't smoke hash and am agaist the illegal use of it. They should make it legal though in Thailand, like many countries that are usually 30 years ahead of Thailand in other medical matters are doing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

After battling with it myself - I'd recommend AA or a detox centre. I'd especially recommend one of those 7 day fasting centres but that may be dangerous for a serious alchoholic.

It's the whole reliance on substances that you need to get out of your system, there's little point transferring your addiction to tranqs or other stuff.

Long term use of hash just slows your life down. I spent years in the UK acheiving nothing 'cause I was stoned every night. I talked a good game though.

[Soph]

Sorry - just one question, why is Xanax the most evil drug known to man (or woman )

[bkkmadness]

I agree, have to go for the natural solution of hash rather than risking a benny addiction. Its a shame Thailand is so backward with regards to his medicinal value.

[bkkmadness]

Long term use of hash just slows your life down. I spent years in the UK acheiving nothing 'cause I was stoned every night. I talked a good game though.

That often true, but in not all cases. But to get off the booze I reckon it is a welcome tool.

[bkkmadness]

Neeranam, you ever go to the gym? Since I cut down my boozing in Thailand I found the gym the best way to work off the extra stresses. I know it sounds a boring, and years ago I would have laughed at myself for going to a gym, but it really helps clear the head.

[Wolfie]

Cold Turkey, you know it makes sense....

I tried Cold Turkey when i was trying to get off the grog...

It didnt work...

I was too p1ssed to keep it down!

[UncleDonald]

All of these substances are a matter of having tommorrow's fun tonight.

The gym suggestion is sound, here is a graph of Uncle's blood pressure (systolic, red) and daily beer consumption (purple, ounces) following a regime of gym workouts and (mostly) abstention. According to the British Hypertension Society, this should cut cardiac and stroke risk by fifty percent. Notice that one has to suffer through a little delay before the good news begins.

[Neeranam]

Sorry - just one question, why is Xanax the most evil drug known to man (or woman huh.gif

Basically it turns you into a zombie, void of any feelings. Yes, it has some uses in the short term, but long-term it causes tolerance and most doctors prescribe higher doses.

Coming off it is a total nightmare due to it's short half-life.

If you are taking it - beware!

[Boon Mee]

Drugs are for Sick People.

Valium is bad ju ju for sure & hashish is only slightly 'better.'

Accupuncture is the answer - definitely...

[Neeranam]

Neeranam, you ever go to the gym? Since I cut down my boozing in Thailand I found the gym the best way to work off the extra stresses. I know it sounds a boring, and years ago I would have laughed at myself for going to a gym, but it really helps clear the head.

No, I don't but used to when I came off the booze, and continued for over a year, every day.

I don't have a problem with any substance anymore.

[merlin1]

Look at the reason why we take drugs. Drugs are about escape from life and its stresses. If you don't want to do them, then you have to find some other way of escaping that is less harmful or more socially acceptable.

I agree that physical exercise is a good thing to do on that score. It relieves stress but I find it doesn't really give you the relief from the world unless you're spending hours at the gym. Who has time for that?

I would look into meditation for escape from your mind for 15 or 20 minutes a day. That can be helpful too and it needn't have any spiritual or religious content at all. You don't have to go to a wat or meditation centre to do it. Find some basic instructions on the web, and do it at home. Think of it as a relaxation technique, rather than a spiritual practice. The trick is to sit still without thinking for some length of time. Hard to do, but worth trying.

Other than that, go with the 'sish sporadically. Some people can tolerate it well and use it daily withouth loss of motivation, while others are stunned by it.

There are some antianxiety drugs out there with longer half lives than Xanax. I think Klonopin and Clonazapam are two. Same dependecy problem with long term use however.

[Neeranam]

Look at the reason why we take drugs. Drugs are about escape from life and its stresses. If you don't want to do them, then you have to find some other way of escaping that is less harmful or more socially acceptable.

True, drugs and drink are an escape from life, but IMO some unlucky people have a disease which is called addiction. There are two schools of thought on this one. 12 step arganisations, who are the far most succesful group believe this. They incorparate meditation and moral inventories amongst other things. Some people, well many people just cannot just have one drink or smoke.

There are some antianxiety drugs out there with longer half lives than Xanax. I think Klonopin and Clonazapam are two. Same dependecy problem with long term use however.

Klon.(USA) and Clonaz.(Canada) or other way around, are the same drug, often referred to in Thailand as Rivotril.

[cathyy]

Valium is the standard medical treatment for alcoholics who are deprived of alcohol. It keeps the DTs (withdrawal symptoms) from getting bad. Hash will in no way prevent DTs, and has every potential for making them worse. Just when you are hallucinating from the DTs, smoke some hash??? I think not. And DT hallucinations are quite universally unpleasant; creepy crawlies all over your body, etc.

Now, the Valium should be tapered off and discontinued as the alcoholic detoxifies. DTs don't last forever. If not, there are worse things than a Valium addiction. Scores of stressed out upper middle class wives seem to function quite well with a Valium addiction.

[lappami1]

I use valium 2-3 times a year after heavy drinking. Works for me with beta-blockers.

[Neeranam]

Valium is the standard medical treatment for alcoholics who are deprived of alcohol. It keeps the DTs (withdrawal symptoms) from getting bad. Hash will in no way prevent DTs, and has every potential for making them worse. Just when you are hallucinating from the DTs, smoke some hash??? I think not. And DT hallucinations are quite universally unpleasant; creepy crawlies all over your body, etc.

Now, the Valium should be tapered off and discontinued as the alcoholic detoxifies. DTs don't last forever. If not, there are worse things than a Valium addiction. Scores of stressed out upper middle class wives seem to function quite well with a Valium addiction.

Cathy

I should have stated that doctors in Thailand generally DON'T give a tapered dose to alcoholics.

Most of those housewives you mention reach a tolerance whence they are given more making them into zombies, and they do have lots of problems when it starts not to work.

I know of many such housewives through a benzo-support group, when I was tapering from a 200mg a day habit.

[meom]

I would favor hash provided that they can provide some consistent quality.

Maybe times have changed for the good in that respect but I remember from the distant past that quality varied from pure shi.t to near tripping.

[cathyy]

I should have stated that doctors in Thailand generally DON'T give a tapered dose to alcoholics.

Most of those housewives you mention reach a tolerance whence they are given more making them into zombies, and they do have lots of problems when it starts not to work.

You seem to have missed my point entirely. My point is that there is a good medical reason to give an alcoholic Valium. There is no good medical reason to give one hash.

Now, the docs here may not follow the Western protocol of tapering the Valium dosage off once it is no longer needed to prevent DTs. Perhaps it is due an understanding that an addict is an addict, and will simply find another substance to abuse if they don't go back to their first choice of substance to abuse. So they are simply switching to an addiction that is less physically harmful than alcohol. And I'll bet they don't increase the Valium dose as tolerance develops, either. It's a no-win situation, but I can't see how encouraging a dependence on an illegal drug instead would be preferable.

Please, nobody start the old "it's not addictive" argument. I've seen too many friends in THC withdrawal to ever believe that. I'm not going to even consider any argument that contradicts what I have personally seen.

[Neeranam]

What I was really trying to show was the hypocrisy of one drug being relatively harmless but illegal, whereas with personal experience I know the nightmare that the legal one causes. Withdrawal from hash is nothing compared to benzos. It is the worst ever bar maybe methadone, another one that is prescribed, but I won't go into that. Like what you say about valium being less harmful than booze, methadone is less harmful(not phyically) than the risks to society of street heroin addiction.

[cathyy]

What I was really trying to show was the hypocrisy of one drug being relatively harmless but illegal, whereas with personal experience I know the nightmare that the legal one causes.

Ah, now THAT makes sense. While I don't consider hash to be harmless, I will readily agree to it being less addictive than Valium and with less severe withdrawal. Benzodiazepines are wickedly addictive, such that even use as prescribed can lead to dependence.

Why does one person become an alcoholic, and another, with a similar drinking pattern, does not? Why does one person become dependent on hash, and another not? It's certainly not will power, nor intelligence, nor environment. Nobody really knows, but it seems to be a brain chemistry thing. A person vulnerable to one addiction is vulnerable to them all. That's a problem. We can release them from an addiction, but we can't permanently alter their brain chemistry to be like that of people who do not get addicted easily. Some substances cause such extreme alterations in brain chemistry -specifically in the pleasure center of the brain- that even a person with normal brain chemistry will become addicted. Like crack.

Just to inform earlier posters, Xanax/alprazolam is not a benzodiazepine, although Klonopin/clonazepam is, but Klonopin is used as an anticonvulsant, not an anxiolytic. (In English, it's used to stop seizures, not stop anxiety attacks) Xanax is also highly addictive, because it, too, alters brain chemistry in a pleasurable way.

[UncleDonald]

What I was really trying to show was the hypocrisy of one drug being relatively harmless but illegal, whereas with personal experience I know the nightmare that the legal one causes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

....It's certainly not will power, nor intelligence, nor environment. Nobody really knows,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As any lawyer knows, the statements of experts that begin with "certainly" are always the most doubtful

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Neeranam, you ever go to the gym? Since I cut down my boozing in Thailand I found the gym the best way to work off the extra stresses. I know it sounds a boring, and years ago I would have laughed at myself for going to a gym, but it really helps clear the head.

No, I don't but used to when I came off the booze, and continued for over a year, every day.

I don't have a problem with any substance anymore.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nicotine

[Neeranam]

No, I don't but used to when I came off the booze, and continued for over a year, every day.

I don't have a problem with any substance anymore.

Nicotine 

What I meant was any mind-altering substances. As a doc doc, you should know nicotine is not mind-altering. Actually I don't have a problem with smoking. I am addicted but no problem. If I try to stop, then the problem starts!

Just to inform earlier posters, Xanax/alprazolam is not a benzodiazepine, although Klonopin/clonazepam is, but Klonopin is used as an anticonvulsant, not an anxiolytic. (In English, it's used to stop seizures, not stop anxiety attacks) Xanax is also highly addictive, because it, too, alters brain chemistry in a pleasurable way.

Don't be fooled by what doctors in Thailand say, or elsewhere that Xanax is not a benzo. IT IS, and the worst one due to it's short half-life. A nightmare of a drug.

Last week the inventor of this drug died. How many lives has he ruined with valium and company. Bastard!

[cathyy]

Don't be fooled by what doctors in Thailand say, or elsewhere that Xanax is not a benzo. IT IS, and the worst one due to it's short half-life. A nightmare of a drug.

Geez, you made me get out my Pharmacology textbook to verify the status of Xanax. You are right, it is a benzo. I ought to have known better. Not only am I a nurse, but my husband is ON Xanax. It's a daily prescription, but he doesn't take it every day. It alleviates the misery of his anxiety disorder/brain chemistry problem. Xanax is perfect for him, because his attacks are acute, but rarely last more than a couple of hours.

Your terrible experience with it doesn't mean that it's not a worthwhile medication. Your addiction doesn't mean all users will become addicted, or experience withdrawal. The tapered dose is to prevent withdrawal symptoms. If it's stopped abruptly you get withdrawal if you have been on it for very long. Switching to a longer half-life version than Xanax is recommended for the tapering off period of two weeks. Was yours stopped suddenly? Was it tapered off too rapidly?

[Neeranam]

QUOTE(Neeranam @ 2005-10-02 05:35:04)

Don't be fooled by what doctors in Thailand say, or elsewhere that Xanax is not a benzo. IT IS, and the worst one due to it's short half-life. A nightmare of a drug.

Geez, you made me get out my Pharmacology textbook to verify the status of Xanax. You are right, it is a benzo. I ought to have known better. Not only am I a nurse, but my husband is ON Xanax. It's a daily prescription, but he doesn't take it every day. It alleviates the misery of his anxiety disorder/brain chemistry problem. Xanax is perfect for him, because his attacks are acute, but rarely last more than a couple of hours.

Your terrible experience with it doesn't mean that it's not a worthwhile medication. Your addiction doesn't mean all users will become addicted, or experience withdrawal. The tapered dose is to prevent withdrawal symptoms. If it's stopped abruptly you get withdrawal if you have been on it for very long. Switching to a longer half-life version than Xanax is recommended for the tapering off period of two weeks. Was yours stopped suddenly? Was it tapered off too rapidly?

Kathy,

I used to travel around with the BNF, MIMS. I know a lot about pharmaceuticals. My mother works in clinical parmacology, and she too was on a benzo, but no more.

I know there may be some uses for Xanax. Good doctors these days never prescribe it for more than 2-3 weeks.

If not taken every day, I don't know. Usually there is some alternative therapy. I have a friend who takes it for panic attacks.

I have another friend who overcame his panic attacks an alterantive, natural way.

I took 5 years to taper off my addiction as I knew before what the cold turkey offered. My friend died after cold turkying 50mg of valium, against my advice, he had a seizure.

[ilyushin]

Hash would be my choice , but there are alternatives. Valium isn't one.

If you want to stop drinking it takes more than another vice.

Edited October 4, 2005 by ilyushin

[boppia]

Pedro, where are these 7-day fasting centers? Thailand? just curious. sounds interesting.

[tripperj]

Sorry - just one question, why is Xanax the most evil drug known to man (or woman  )

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ever go through benzodiazipine withdrawal??? try it and you'll know the answer. Horrible drug when missused as it is by most users of it. Should only be used by non addicts for very short periods of time.

[tripperj]

What I was really trying to show was the hypocrisy of one drug being relatively harmless but illegal, whereas with personal experience I know the nightmare that the legal one causes. Withdrawal from hash is nothing compared to benzos. It is the worst ever bar maybe methadone, another one that is prescribed, but I won't go into that. Like what you say about valium being less harmful than booze, methadone is less harmful(not phyically) than the risks to society of street heroin addiction.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I wouldn't class either drug as harmless. I my self have been a heavy user of both. The withdrawal from benzo's was horrendous, but i would say that hash ######ed me up more when i was using daily. Don't get me wrong i strongly believe that both should be legal, but benzo's should not be so readily available. Hash is fine and a lot less distructive than many leagal rec' drugs like alchol, just because some people like me can't use it don't mean the rest of the world should be denied the pleasure.

As for your friend, in my experance total abstance is the only way to go in the long run. But always follow medical advice, cold turkey can and does kill. But ultamitly, if your an addict like me, the only thing that works is total abstance backed up with the support of your peer's. There are many friends of bill all over the world. Help is out there. i hope your friend makes it..

Tj

[bkkmadness]

What is this "friends of Bill" thing?