Between A Rock And A Hard Place!

[Mighty Mouse]

There is a difference between experience and a degree.

and mighty mouse,  thanks i think we are coming to an understanding,  with a bit more explanation I can now see where you are coming from.  But I still don't see a line up of qualified teachers knocking on school doors.  All we seem to get at our school is qualified losers. Perhaps the emphasis should be on screening for drunks and losers not fake degrees.

An experienced 'teacher' who has never obtained a degree may well be able to teach students English quite well. No argument there. In Australia, I have spend the last two years teaching my Thai lady the English language, and I believe that I am doing a much better job than the classes she attended at the Sydney TAFE college where she commenced her learning with qualified teachers. I have no teaching qualifications.

The OP also believes that he has enough "experience" to do the job better than some of the more qualified teachers. He may well be right, but the fact is he doesn't have the degree stipulated as necessary by his school and therefore he cannot renew his work permit. The school is now about to terminate his employment.

The students that he has been teaching up to this point, now have to learn from a new teacher. This surely must disrupt their learning. New man, different style. Maybe the new man won't be as good, maybe he will be a lot better, who knows.

The OP now wants to try his luck at another school. If another school is prepared to accept him without a degree, well and good. However, if the other school requires their teachers to have a degree, the OP is prepared to do what he did at his current school, produce fake papers. So, we are now back to square one.

My point is, why disrupt so many people, students, school principals, the visa section etc. just because he won't take a little more time legally obtaining the necessary qualifications.

If the OP wants to make teaching his life long profession, then surely it is in everybodys best interest for him to achieve the desired standard.

Perhaps you need to ask him how long he intends to be a teacher in Thailand. He may just want to fill in a bit of time before he moves on to other places or things.

All this is my personal opinion. I don't expect everybody to agree with it and I'm sure we could debate the issue until the cows come home, but I won't be changing my mind.

[Mighty Mouse]

If you are a fully qualified teacher, you would not be competing for a position at a school that the op likely teaches at I can assure you. So real teachers really needn't worry about being denied a job by 'fake' teachers. Point is moot.

Thanks Doza. I accept your explanation. I have cut most of your quote out except for the above piece.

Let's compare what you state to the predicament that the OP now finds himself in.

His school is sacking him because he cannot renew his work permit, not because he is unqualified. The school may be happy with his performance but obviously can't employ him without a work permit.

If that is the case, the school would not be able to employ any farang English teacher unless that teacher was able to satisfy all government visa requirements. In order to do that, the teacher must have a genuine degree. (I'm assuming this from what I have read.)

So what does the school do now? If, as you suggest, they would not attract "real teachers," who can they attract. More pretend teachers?

[Doza]

I've got a good idea...

Make everyone in Thailand teaching without an actual teaching degree stop teaching...

Then explain to all the Thai schools and language schools everywhere that they won't have a native speaker to help with their English (for now)...

Then schools can put adds in international press advetising for fully qualified teachers to come teach English in Local Thai School XXX in Nonthaburi or Nakon Nowhere or Somchai's Language School for 30 - 40K / month no air con and 50 kids in a class with limited facilities etc etc etc...

Then sit back and handle the flood of enquiries from suitably qualified candidates.

Now THERE is a solution to this whole teaching mess in Thailand because no one deserves to have their kid taught by someone without a real teaching degree!

[Doza]

Sorry...

I've been making a distinction between real teaching degree (BEd) and real degree (BA etc) as I thought a parent or two on here wanted their kid to be to taught by a 'real teacher' not a real accountant for example.

But if everyone's happy with any degree, then they should advertise not for teachers but for 'professionals' who want to teach.

[Mighty Mouse]

It may be fraud in your country but one thing you don't seem to realise - this is Thailand, things are done differently here.  If you are going to stay here, you'd be best leaving your Western attitudes behind.

Perhaps that's why I don't live there.

Legally right, morally wrong? The Thai visa section seem to think that it is legally wrong too. Perhaps that's a Far Eastern attitude.

[Mighty Mouse]

Sorry...

I've been making a distinction between real teaching degree (BEd) and real degree (BA etc) as I thought a parent or two on here wanted their kid to be to taught by a 'real teacher' not a real accountant for example.

But if everyone's happy with any degree, then they should advertise not for teachers but for 'professionals' who want to teach.

I think you have nailed it.

Well done.

[Woodentop]

Why not apply the same logic to the engineers who design the BKK underground, or the doctors in the hospitals here: As long as they have a wish for doing the job, it is ok. Yeah right

[opothai]

Why not apply the same logic to the engineers who design the BKK underground, or the doctors in the hospitals here: As long as they have a wish for doing the job, it is ok. Yeah right

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

now now wooden top that's possibly a bit ott.

missing the odd cmma or full stop is no big deal.

missing the wrong organ may have consequences

a doctor and a teacher are not the same and the pay is not the same.

ps i do think the engineers in bangkok could do with a bit more experience though, would'nt you say

[GuestHouse]

Let me get this right.

You are being refused a work permit because your qualifications are fake.

erm.... errh.... What exactly is your problem with that?

[marquess]

Why not apply the same logic to the engineers who design the BKK underground, or the doctors in the hospitals here: As long as they have a wish for doing the job, it is ok. Yeah right

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hardly the same logic! After all if you have been speaking English all your life and you are sufficiently well versed in the mechanics of the language. Then it is possible to teach it effectively. Whereas being an Engineer or a Doctor, requires specialist training. Even then in the past people have been successful engineers with having had that formal training.

[Woodentop]

OK, I give up! Just let any backpacker who has fallen in love with a bargirl teach English, surely the Thai society doesn't deserve any better. No more posts from me on this topic. Let dishonesty and low standards rule.

[GuestHouse]

I think you'll find that the majority of backpackers have a degrees, they are by and large middle class and well educated.

Edited September 28, 2005 by GuestHouse

[chownah]

Why not apply the same logic to the engineers who design the BKK underground, or the doctors in the hospitals here: As long as they have a wish for doing the job, it is ok. Yeah right

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hardly the same logic! After all if you have been speaking English all your life and you are sufficiently well versed in the mechanics of the language. Then it is possible to teach it effectively. Whereas being an Engineer or a Doctor, requires specialist training. Even then in the past people have been successful engineers with having had that formal training.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I strongly disagree. Being able to speak English well with a complete understanding of the mechanics is not all that is required to be a teacher...teaching is a skill and an art which is distinct from any subject you try to teach. I think that people don't realize this fully....mastery of a subject does not mean that you can teach it....you have to know how to teach on top of mastery of the subject you will teach.

[edd]

Please let me hold my hand up my spelling is ****, I do have a degree, I have a MSc. but I would no sooner pass my self of as an English teacher than fly.

A friend of mine, who is a UK Civil Servant, writes speeches for MP`s and other senior politicians.

He is extremely well regarded by his employers, the D.T.I, but he does not have a degree.

This man is so good he should be teaching at a University.

I accept that schools have to have a starting point when choosing staff, but I feel it would be prudent to take into account the experience and ability of the Applicant to teach English.

As far as practical subjects go, ability is more important than paper.

A degree is only the starting point in learning how to do the job properly.

[wolf5370]

It seems to me there are two real parts to this issue. Both are valid and both are on opposites sides. Therefore, there can be no winner.

In an ideal world (or Thailand at least), there would be teaching positions in every school in Thailand that employed fully qualified native English speaking teaching professionals. The pay and prospects would be good enough to lure them over from their native shores for a tour-of-duty in one of these schools. However, back here in reality, there are not the lures especially in the sticks. The students disserve the best that the available budget can procure - be that the ideal candidate in a Bangkok international school, or a native English speaking foreigner that is willing to help out for the measly (comparatively) wage.

To get the idea candidates to fill these positions, either the school needs more money specifically for this, or Universities need to kick out Thai English teachers that can speak/comprehend/read/write English far better than they currently seem to.

(PS: It always makes me smile when people complain about spelling here: A) its an international site and UK English spellings differs from US English differs from Aus English spelling etc etc; the complainer always seems to make a string of spelling/grammar mistakes in their tirade )

Edited September 28, 2005 by wolf5370

[Abandon]

Why not apply the same logic to the engineers who design the BKK underground, or the doctors in the hospitals here: As long as they have a wish for doing the job, it is ok. Yeah right

now now wooden top that's possibly a bit ott.

missing the odd cmma or full stop is no big deal.

missing the wrong organ may have consequences

a doctor and a teacher are not the same and the pay is not the same.

ps i do think the engineers in bangkok could do with a bit more experience though, would'nt you say

Better than missing the right organ

Let me get this right.

You are being refused a work permit because your qualifications are fake.

erm.... errh.... What exactly is your problem with that?

While you are quite right guesthouse - lets not forget the OP was not complaining about losing his job, so much as being concerned about his girlfriend and being apart from her. Which is why the thread has not been moved to the Teaching forum.

The only reason he considers trying other schools is so that he need not be parted from his GF

Edited September 28, 2005 by Pandit

[chonabot]

Sorry...

I've been making a distinction between real teaching degree (BEd) and real degree (BA etc) as I thought a parent or two on here wanted their kid to be to taught by a 'real teacher' not a real accountant for example.

But if everyone's happy with any degree, then they should advertise not for teachers but for 'professionals' who want to teach.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How many teachers in Uk schools have a BEd?

The majority have a BA or BSc and then attend teacher training college ( Rsa etc ) , isn't that the equvalent of a TEFL for that particular subject ?

Edited September 28, 2005 by chonabot

[chuckacinco]

I'm a schoolteacher in Bangkok. I've taught at various schools in the 16 years I've been here. I have worked with many teachers, some without degrees; also, teachers that have degrees in Education and degrees in other subjects. It begs generalizations but anyone with any kind of education knows the quality of generalizations (even this one lol).

The first post seemed to me to ask, “Can I stay in Thailand and teach?” I have to answer in my own experience that yes you can. As was stated before, there is a native speaker shortage in Thailand or rather a shortage of native speakers willing to work for 25 to 40 Baht a month. Keep applying and a school with some push will get you a work permit. I think that is the main concern of the OP. The blacklisting thing is a something I've heard about but never, never seen.

I have a Masters Degree in Education. I have to say that I have been equally as pleased as horrified watching teachers with various backgrounds do what they do in the classroom. If I were to give advice it would be to get a degree in Education and just accept the price of being a teacher. Of course, you can work here while you pursue this if that's what you want to do.

The popularity of credentialing is a worldwide phenomenon whether we accept it or not. In my opinion, eventually you will have to go legit or be damned to backwater shadowy for profit schools filled with teachers who probably shouldn't be teaching. If you are really good at teaching, being a hero teacher at a crappy school might be dramatically appealing. However, by this time you might have a family and it should be your duty to provide for them in a manner befitting a man of your intelligence and experience.

I got my Masters Degree here in Thailand from an American university. They flew the professors here for summer classes over the course of three years. I bitched the whole time to anyone who would listen about the expense and the waste of my valuable time. In the end, I learned to be the teacher, I think, that I always wanted to be.

In my heart, my reservations about getting properly credentialed were because I was afraid that I was stupid or was going to be made to feel stupid by taking graduate level courses. That I was selfish about spending my life savings on education rather than what I really wanted which was a fantasy collection of computer equipment, large screen TVs, and vacations on the beach.

In the end, I decided to grow up and do the right thing. Dave, I wish you luck.

[awarrumbungle]

Mighty I can see where your coming from. I might possibly be annoyed if a fake degree beat mine, but why would that person be chosen for the position and not you?

Perhaps priorities should go 1)experience 2)TEFL - practical instruction (I do believe TEFLS need to be adapted and changed a lot to more suit Thailand's system) 3) Personality 4)Degree

Does that sound fair?

[britmaveric]

Unfortunately you need a degree to teach - do you think you would get away with this in the West? I'm sure you are a nice lad, but fraud is fraud.

It discredits those who have degree(s) and fullfilled their educational requirements. Experience will only get you so far as you quite well know. Whether you think you are qualified or not - you will never be qualified because you have NO DEGREE.

Maybe you wont get caught today or tomorrow, but this will eventually catch up with you. I see blacklisted and deportation in your future.

[DavieA]

He may well be right, but the fact is he doesn't have the degree stipulated as necessary by his school and therefore he cannot renew his work permit. The school is now about to terminate his employment.

My point is, why disrupt so many people, students, school principals, the visa section etc. just because he won't take a little more time legally obtaining the necessary qualifications.

If the OP wants to make teaching his life long profession, then surely it is in everybodys best interest for him to achieve the desired standard.

Perhaps you need to ask him how long he intends to be a teacher in Thailand. He may just want to fill in a bit of time before he moves on to other places or things.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good morning all, seems this thread has blown up overnight. Special thanks to those that have offered me encouragement and support.

Hi Mighty, I don't expect us to agree on all points, but lets not get into an argument today.....don't like bitterness just cause we don't agree.

I just wanted to note and answer some things about your post. Maybe you came in late on the thread, but please go and read my original post.

Point one. My school is not my employer, it's my agent who is letting me go. I can't work for that agency anymore. I brought all this to my schools attention yesterday (they didn't know yet), and they were not happy. Not because my degree was fake, but because they don't want to lose me as a teacher. They are speaking to the director today to see if the school will hire me privately to get around the problem. Will let you know how goes.

Point 2 - If you'd read my original post you would see that I do take my teaching seriously, and that I enrolled into university 3 weeks ago. Waiting now to see if I've been accepted. I have applied to do a REAL BACHELOR DEGREE in Further education and training externally from Austalia. So I am taking that little more time to get qualified.

Point 3 - I do want teaching to be my life long profession, that's why I've taken the time to enroll into uni. My plan was to start in Thailand to gain the work experience while I complete my degree.

I'm not in Thailand just to fill time till I move on. I came to Thailand (single)to complete my TEFL and to begin a new career as a teacher. It just happened that I met a beautiful girl whom I now live with and we have a serious loving relationship. I'm not using teaching as an excuse to stay in Thailand to be with my girl.

At the end of the day, if I did have a degree, I wouldn't be in Thailand that's for sure! I would be back in Australia (my home town) teaching all the spoiled little shits in their comfortable world called OZ, about how to appriciate life and all it offers.

Edited September 29, 2005 by DavieA

[Neeranam]

I knew this teacher in Bangkok years ago who couldn't teach to save his ****.

He decided to go to Australia and do a MA in some teaching thing, linguistics maybe.

He came back and started getting jobs that I couldn't get, that really pissed me off, as I only have a BA. I know a few teachers who have got something like a MA in linguistics who are crap teachers. Any idiot can get a MA. Those with money and time seem to be the ones who get it.

He was sacked from ECC one of the worst schools in Thailand. He then was taken on at a university and sacked a couple of months later. Asking for a degree does keep out some undesirables in the teaching industry, but handing out MAs to people who can't teach lets undesirable in.

Got a job yet Davey?

Get a new degree from Khao San road and try again.

[DavieA]

OK, I give up! Just let any backpacker who has fallen in love with a bargirl teach English, surely the Thai society doesn't deserve any better. No more posts from me on this topic. Let dishonesty and low standards rule.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You won't find a backpack at in my possession. I came with a large suitcase full of teaching books and aids to give my students an education.

My girlfriend is far from a bar girl. I didn't meet her on a backpacking trip. She's a degree holder herself and a smart cookie.

Low standards, arrogance and intolerance obviously rule your life. I won't be lowering my standards to even bother to argue your points. Please go about your business like you say you will.

[Butterfly]

Simple solution:

Marry the girl, get a long term VISA and WP from any school

[DavieA]

Got a job yet Davey?

Get a new degree from Khao San road and try again.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Neers.

I am waiting to find out what the school can do to help. Seems they are looking to hire me privately to get around the problem. Will let you all know.

I will be going to Bangkok to buy my new degree next week. Much to the discust of some readers.

[DavieA]

Simple solution:

Marry the girl, get a long term VISA and WP from any school

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's not out of the question Butterfly.

[Mighty Mouse]

DavieA,

I read through your post above.

This thread should not be regarded as an "argument." An argument implies anger of some sort. I'm only stating my opinion on your situation, so this thread would better be described as a 'debate' or a plain old 'discussion.'

It doesn't really matter whether the school or your agency pays your salary. The fact is that your services are no longer required, but only because you have a fake degree.

The fact that the school wants to retain your services is a good indication of your worth to them. I hope for your sake and your students sake, that the school can find some way to keep you working.

My understanding is that you cannot get paid work in Thailand unless you have a work permit. (I'm sure someone will correct me if this belief is wrong.)

If so, and if you continue to work with fake papers, you may be moving towards a head on collision with the Thai authorities should they check up on you, or should someone dob you in. Obtaining a benefit by deception is fraud, and that's what you have done.

I'm sure you wouldn't want to be thrown out of Thailand and have to leave your g/f behind. You therefore should decide whether it is worth taking that risk.

I sincerely hope that your application for enrollment in uni is successful. I hope that you achieve your study objectives and become a fully professional and qualified teacher. I also hope that you can then find a good school that pays you enough money to be able to marry your g/f and have a classroom full of your own kids.

If that school is located somewhere in OZ, then tell me where it is and I will come around and flick spitballs onto the ceiling of your classroom.

Good luck and thanks for a very interesting discussion.

[britmaveric]

Got a job yet Davey?

Get a new degree from Khao San road and try again.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Neers.

I am waiting to find out what the school can do to help. Seems they are looking to hire me privately to get around the problem. Will let you all know.

I will be going to Bangkok to buy my new degree next week. Much to the discust of some readers.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Typical take the easy way out mate. I equate it to robbing a bank and then saying you will pay the bank later after you've earned the dosh back. No wonder teachers have a bad reputation here.

[pedro01]

Mighty mouse and pedro I thought I might just remind you of a point I made previously.

Your arguments are fair and just in a country with higher demands, wages, competence - it's all relevent to the environment.

We're talking about teaching English here, not physics, maths etc IN THAILAND.

If Thailand came 1st in SE Asia's recent English rankings than once again you might have a point.

Secondly, and perhaps most importantly, if your kid is teaching you, then what are you doing teaching? (I say this for the sake of your argument - I personally think learning and teaching is a two way process, for the teacher and student)

Also, May I ask what education actually is?? This is not a language school.  There is more involved with teaching then correct spelling and a degree on the wall.  These are kids, easily influenced, looking for role models, needing guidance, in a critical phase of life.  Leaving 'some girl' for a more comfortable life is hardly a good example - what happened to genuine relationships with genuine people (I'm referring to the type of person that would commit to this - not about what you tell the students).  Or would you rather some highly educated drunk and playboy that fails to turn up to school sober or at all?

We are both generalising to win an argument.  But I am also arguing that you have to look at the person not the stereotype (which you appear to be doing)

From his post it looks pretty clear that he enjoys his job (he would still teach in Aus), so that would indicate your 'just some' girl argument was a rash and unthoughtfull judgement on something you don't know enough about.

I probably could have structured, worded and spelt this post better, but I'm submitting it for my concepts not my grammar.  A teacher is never perfect no matter how educated he is.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You seem to have me confused. I'm not teaching - I run a software company.

Also - my son is not teaching me.

My son goes to an international school & the teachers there are really top notch. All degree holders.

What I am finding with people that hold education degrees is that they are more aware of the subtleties & nuances of how kids learn. I fail to see how this knowledge can be gained 'on the job' any more than a qualified English teacher could come into my company & start programming.

If Thailand wasn't full of unqualified teachers willing to work for a pittance, then perhaps the education system would actually improve.

[pedro01]

Why not apply the same logic to the engineers who design the BKK underground, or the doctors in the hospitals here: As long as they have a wish for doing the job, it is ok. Yeah right

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hardly the same logic! After all if you have been speaking English all your life and you are sufficiently well versed in the mechanics of the language. Then it is possible to teach it effectively. Whereas being an Engineer or a Doctor, requires specialist training. Even then in the past people have been successful engineers with having had that formal training.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I strongly disagree. Being able to speak English well with a complete understanding of the mechanics is not all that is required to be a teacher...teaching is a skill and an art which is distinct from any subject you try to teach. I think that people don't realize this fully....mastery of a subject does not mean that you can teach it....you have to know how to teach on top of mastery of the subject you will teach.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree - this has been my experience with the teachers at my Sons school - they know their Sh*t about teaching & child development. Subject is irrelevent. Bachelors of Education much preferred.