5 More Musicians Jailed

[buddhalady]

How many new arrivals here are seduced, not by pretty young girls, but by the online representation of LOS as an expat paradise? Perhaps a website telling it like it is might result in at least objective decisions on lifestyle changes. CM is still a good place to live in many ways, but....

And I, for one, don't consider the comment about Nazi Germany out of place - that regime didn't begin with outright slaughter of the innocents, it led up to it slowly-slowly.

Buddhalady

CM is a great place for expats who are fully funded to come and live.

It has never been a great place for foreigners so poor that they have to work illegally for payments under the table from unscrupulous employers.

For those worried about the future of music in CM, maybe they should direct their anger at the bar owner and the musician who thought they could get away with it and spoiled the scene for everyone else.

I would suggest withdrawing your patronage from the bar that started the sorry mess.

Get a life!

I'm fully funded, and was employed by the Royal Opera House Covent Garden for many years as a soprano. Was hoping to get my voice back in order in case I had a chance to sing again, not for money but because, like musicians and performers the world over, I feel a born-in talent that gives pleasure to audiences, however small, cannot be allowed to rot unused. The contact between a performer and his/her audience when making music is lifeblood to those who are lucky enough to be born with this talent.

Since I arrived here, there have been many worthy attempts to improve the music scene here for the 15,000 or so expats who contribute to the city's economy and support many families. That is likely to stop now, as no-one will be prepared to take the risk.

And please tell me, how was the tourist who'd been here two days supposed to know that doing what comes naturally would land him in jail? I met the owners of Northgate several times during their association with the CMU programme, like I said, decent, caring people. Seems to me they wouldn't have been targeted unless someone, somewhere, of whatever ethnicity, tipped off Immigration.

That's the person who should be attracting peoples' anger.

I note the Chiang Mai Friends' Group is pushing its volunteer work permit programme, now apparently supported by the authorities - a move forward but will it include musicians or just people who clean up rubbish after local people drop it?

[Puwa]

My daddy taught me well and the main point I thank him for :

"The law is The law"

very definitive, short and to the point. It took me many years to grasp this simple five word statement ,to really understand .We can only hope now your bar owner friend will think twice before trading his freedom in the name of jazz .

And my daddy taught me, "The more self-righteous a person is, the more secrets he has to hide."

[northernmist]

CM is a great place for expats who are fully funded to come and live.

It has never been a great place for foreigners so poor that they have to work illegally for payments under the table from unscrupulous employers.

I think you make a couple of good points.

Regarding the first point, I think it will not be long before the Thai government starts to cash in on the thousands of ex pats that have come to make their home here either by marriage or retirement. For me, it would be no great surprise to see the finance requirements for both marriage and retirement increase. I can envisage the amount required in the bank for marriage doubling and the retirement figure up to around 1.2 million.

Don't think it can't happen, whoever thought years ago that it would ever be 800,000 and how many farang's can actually sell up and move away, in practice? In a nutshell they have us by the balls.

Re marriage...It is 'grandfathered'. If you came here when the requirement was 200 000 per year, that's what it still is. If you came here on the 400 000 requirement, that's what you'll always be required to show.

Yes, it will go up again soonish to 800 000. That's when it will just become silly. People would be better spending their money here than constantly trying to have to find that type of money every 12 months. It is not feasible for young couples. I have a lot of friends who met as Uni students. Guess what? They don't have money...same as most recent graduates wordwide. The marriage requirements are impossible for them. So.......they go and live abroad. Their extremely well qualified Thai spouse goes with them, where things are much easier. Thailand loses qualified people and they likely won't come back.

Edited April 23, 2011 by northernmist

[uptheos]

Re marriage...It is 'grandfathered'. If you came here when the requirement was 200 000 per year, that's what it still is. If you came here on the 400 000 requirement, that's what you'll always be required to show.

I wouldn't bank on it.

[northernmist]

Re marriage...It is 'grandfathered'. If you came here when the requirement was 200 000 per year, that's what it still is. If you came here on the 400 000 requirement, that's what you'll always be required to show.

I wouldn't bank on it.

I've got Thai legal friends who have been abroad to study at some of the world's best Universities and I've already asked them about it. Laws can't be made retrospectively.

Re this whole debate, yes immigration laws should be tough for people 'on their own' who have come here 'by choice' and made the decision to live here aged 50 + as retirees. They knew the rules. I am not saying whether those rules are right or wrong, but they were made clear.

The rules for younger people who have married a local and are living here to be with her / her family / her career is here / have children here etc are just insanely wrong. Nowhere else in the world do you remain for your entire life without rights, cannot do any work outside of a few professions, need to show money annually to remain with your own children, etc etc............that stuff is shameful for this country. I know a young german guy here who is married to an undecuated girl who speaks litte german. (Her english is good, as is his) They have a baby and they absolutely love each other. He can't teach here as his english is not good enough for that type of job. They don't have 400 000 baht to show. So, it's impossible for him to stay here. He goes home for 80% of the year and his son grows up not having a father figure around for 80% of the year. He loves his child and he has tried to move mountains to look after his wife. They are young, don't have a lot of money and he can't teach here. So, they are seperated for 80% of the year. IMO that is just completely wrong. Those are rules that people didn't 'sign up for', but rather ones that people find themselves stuck in due to who they love / having had a child.

Edited April 23, 2011 by northernmist

[carmine]

This is just the beginning - next it will be any type of volunteer work, etc

Foreigners are becoming undesireables

I don't see why. Just obey the countries laws and rules for foreigners and you should'nt have a problem.

[Greenside]

Northernmist, this is getting us away from an important topic as it applies to CM. Let's not digress into a general immigration discussion which some moderator will rightly say belongs in a different forum.

Edited April 23, 2011 by Greenside

[northernmist]

Northernmist, this is getting us away from an important topic as it applies to CM. Let's not digress into a general immigration discussion which some moderator will rightly say belongs in a different forum.

Yes, my apologies. It's sad to see so many bitter expats though who absolutely revel in another's misfortune. We have a situation here where some expats with money would happily see those with less thrown out simply for playing music or tutoring the poor for free. Dissapointing.

[Thighlander]

those who do work illegally are only making the situation worse for everybody. Here in the US, no one hates the illegals more than the recent immigrants, who came legally--it gives them a bad name. As soon as teachers refuse to teach, unless they are 100% legal, the sooner the Government will take the necessary steps to allow qualified people to teach--not broke people with criminal warrants in their own countries.

[buddhalady]

My daddy taught me well and the main point I thank him for :

"The law is The law"

very definitive, short and to the point. It took me many years to grasp this simple five word statement ,to really understand .We can only hope now your bar owner friend will think twice before trading his freedom in the name of jazz .

And my daddy taught me, "The more self-righteous a person is, the more secrets he has to hide."

Fortunate your daddy didn't meet me - he might have received an unwanted but objective character analysis.

My mummy taught me to do my best for those who couldn't do for themselves, to stand up for what is right and understand why 'wrong' is wrong, to respect where respect is due and recognise the inherent inborn goodness of the human race where it hasn't been perverted to self-self-self. That's the difference between daddies and mummies.

[carmine]

This is starting to sound like a kids thread.

[buddhalady]

This is starting to sound like a kids thread.

Just taking my cue from the poster who mentioned his 'daddy'....bless him

[yesterday]

This is starting to sound like a kids thread.

Just taking my cue from the poster who mentioned his 'daddy'....bless him

why "wrong is wrong" makes it real simple

why do I need a work permit to sing while my buddy slings booze to paying ,drinking , drunk young people standing in the busy street at night ,why is it wrong,why???,

it is the law and the law is the law as my daddy told me more than once ...

darn simple for most....

the people that can not grasp this fact are indeed the sad ,miserable ones.

Edited April 23, 2011 by yesterday

[daoyai]

This is starting to sound like a kids thread.

Just taking my cue from the poster who mentioned his 'daddy'....bless him

why "wrong is wrong" makes it real simple

why do I need a work permit to sing while my buddy slings booze to paying ,drinking , drunk young people standing in the busy street at night ,why is it wrong,why???,

it is the law and the law is the law as my daddy told me more than once ...

darn simple for most....

the people that can not grasp this fact are indeed the sad ,miserable ones.

This is actually pretty funny, I picture the preacher in one of those old rock and roll moviies ,ranting about the devils music..... Why do you hate creative types, yes they are sometimes "underfunded" and they are not like you (guaranteed) . What have they ever done to you ? This whole scene brought enjoyment to thousands of tourists and locals alike, Some people just hate seeing others enjoying themselves I suppose.

[buddhalady]

This is starting to sound like a kids thread.

Just taking my cue from the poster who mentioned his 'daddy'....bless him

why "wrong is wrong" makes it real simple

why do I need a work permit to sing while my buddy slings booze to paying ,drinking , drunk young people standing in the busy street at night ,why is it wrong,why???,

it is the law and the law is the law as my daddy told me more than once ...

darn simple for most....

the people that can not grasp this fact are indeed the sad ,miserable ones.

Sorry, chum, I'm neither sad nor miserable, just somewhat disappointed over the last five years by some aspects of the 'warm, friendly expat community' the online blurbs led me to expect. Fortunately, my home is 20kms away from town...

Buddhalady

[yesterday]

This is starting to sound like a kids thread.

Just taking my cue from the poster who mentioned his 'daddy'....bless him

why "wrong is wrong" makes it real simple

why do I need a work permit to sing while my buddy slings booze to paying ,drinking , drunk young people standing in the busy street at night ,why is it wrong,why???,

it is the law and the law is the law as my daddy told me more than once ...

darn simple for most....

the people that can not grasp this fact are indeed the sad ,miserable ones.

Sorry, chum, I'm neither sad nor miserable, just somewhat disappointed over the last five years by some aspects of the 'warm, friendly expat community' the online blurbs led me to expect. Fortunately, my home is 20kms away from town...

Buddhalady

Help us out bud, does this mean you can not grasp the concept wrong is wrong in regards to breaking a countries laws?

I certainly did not use sad and miserable in referance to you but I guess as my oldest uncle used to say,

" if the shoe fits ,wear it!"

Edited April 23, 2011 by yesterday

[meadish_sweetball]

Regardless of what view you have of the immigration laws, the tourist could not reasonably be expected to know he couldn't get up on stage and sing a song. That he got to spend the night in a jail cell for it is disgraceful.

[surayu]

I think the Thai police are heroes

:clap2:

[Greenside]

why "wrong is wrong" makes it real simple

why do I need a work permit to sing while my buddy slings booze to paying ,drinking , drunk young people standing in the busy street at night ,why is it wrong,why???,

it is the law and the law is the law as my daddy told me more than once ...

darn simple for most....

the people that can not grasp this fact are indeed the sad ,miserable ones.

I think you're confusing right and wrong with legal and illegal.

Just because it is the law does not make it right or just or even sensible. The birth of America was prompted by the desire to overturn unjust laws which levied taxes without giving those who paid them any rights to shape their own affairs while the unfortunate natives of South Africa were subject to an entire regime where almost every law could be said to be wrong by decent people.

We're dealing here not with what the law says (which we should all know by this point in the thread) but whether it serves any useful purpose and the unfair and seemingly arbitrary way it is applied. I have yet to see any convincing argument that letting a few foreign musicians play on an occasional basis actually hurts anyone's interests whereas it's plain to me that a policy that stimulates the arts can only bring good things to the city of Chiang Mai.

By the way, the difference between unlawful and illegal is that the latter is simply a sick bird. Sorry.

[Throatwobbler]

I think the Thai police are heroes

:clap2:

I think that has to be one of the greates quotes I've ever read on TV.

[Throatwobbler]

One of my friends who is very involved in the music scene here told me that there is a new chief of immigration police in Chiang Mai. That is what has caused this crackdown. Can anyone confirm or deny this?

Edited April 23, 2011 by Throatwobbler

[philw]

Regardless of what view you have of the immigration laws, the tourist could not reasonably be expected to know he couldn't get up on stage and sing a song. That he got to spend the night in a jail cell for it is disgraceful.

At last, a bit of sanity.........

He may have also been deported.

Does any body know the truth about what actually transpired ??

[Flatouthruthefog]

<br />

<br />Regardless of what view you have of the immigration laws, the tourist could not reasonably be expected to know he couldn't get up on stage and sing a song. That he got to spend the night in a jail cell for it is disgraceful.<br />

<br /><br />At last, a bit of sanity.........<br /><br />He may have also been deported.<br /><br />Does any body know the truth about what actually transpired ??<br />

<br /><br /><br />

Meadish: I have always respected your excellent posts and you are bang on the money with this, likewise Philw.

One aspect of all this 'clamp down' that I detest is the fact that after the arrests of the foreign musicians, the whole topic goes totally silent!

What EVER happened to "The Loi Kroh Three"? Are they in the same stinking cell as "The Northgate Five"?

I don't think so.

The THREE were due in court one Monday, but the court had no record and they never appeared. Have they all been DISAPPEARED? As sinister as that?? I don't think so.

Many of us support these guys in principle and want to see REASONABLE treatment, despite the obvious and unfortunate breach of the stringent Thai laws.

But (have you all noticed?) it all goes AMAZINGLY quiet once the guys get bail........

A more suspicious person than I would get very, errrr, suspicious.......!

Hmmmm???????????

[DavidOxon]

<br />

<br />Regardless of what view you have of the immigration laws, the tourist could not reasonably be expected to know he couldn't get up on stage and sing a song. That he got to spend the night in a jail cell for it is disgraceful.<br />

<br /><br />At last, a bit of sanity.........<br /><br />He may have also been deported.<br /><br />Does any body know the truth about what actually transpired ??<br />

<br /><br /><br />

Meadish: I have always respected your excellent posts and you are bang on the money with this, likewise Philw.

One aspect of all this 'clamp down' that I detest is the fact that after the arrests of the foreign musicians, the whole topic goes totally silent!

What EVER happened to "The Loi Kroh Three"? Are they in the same stinking cell as "The Northgate Five"?

I don't think so.

The THREE were due in court one Monday, but the court had no record and they never appeared. Have they all been DISAPPEARED? As sinister as that?? I don't think so.

Many of us support these guys in principle and want to see REASONABLE treatment, despite the obvious and unfortunate breach of the stringent Thai laws.

But (have you all noticed?) it all goes AMAZINGLY quiet once the guys get bail........

A more suspicious person than I would get very, errrr, suspicious.......!

Hmmmm???????????

they did appear,

but as one defendant told me

it was just to check that they hadn't done a runner!

(Difficult as they had to surrender their passports)

they are still waiting, and still not knowing themselves what will happen

sad times

D

[carmine]

Laws are laws whether you like them or not.

That said, i find it very sad that the common sense of the authorities (regarding this situation), stretches no further than this. Shameful really.

What should happen here is for the media to get hold of this and then hopefully the stupidity of the situation might be brought to light and the clowns responsible will be brought into line.

Yes, ofcourse i know this won't happen.

[Drew Aitch]

I wonder if it's okay to sit on a rock in the Jungle and strum a guitar, or hum a few tunes on a sunny beach perhaps with a group of fellow travellers. After all, these are public places too.

Then again, maybe the law only applies to entertaining at public venues which have paying customers? If this is the case, then it might be okay to sing, strum, tap, yodel, Morris dance, whatever, in national parks and public beaches, but only when the 'entertainer' is at a legal distance from noodle stands, ice cream vendors, fruit sellers, and other businesses that make a profit!

It would be nice if the law could be seen in its written form so that the musical expats know exactly what they can perform and where (if at all), without running the risk of arrest.

If however, these people are actually playing for payment, then of course they are working in the entertainment business without the required status. In cases such as this, arrests of this type are just. I mean, high street bars are hardly off the radar are they, so it's not what you might call a low risk gamble!

Not sure that 'entertainment' really falls into the category of voluntary work though, but I'm sure there are some who would disagree with that view. But agree or disagree, it would purely depend what the written law states. If it clearly says that the act of blowing into an Irish tin whistle (or similar), to the amusement of others is 'volunteering', then the opinions of others are null and void.

Aitch

PS - There is more peace and camaraderie brought about by music than an other medium. If i had my way it would be as free to perform as breathing in air, no matter where on the planet one happens to reside!

[cloudhopper]

I seriously doubt the BIB have the slightest concern for local Thai musicians. I also find it hard it hard to believe the problem of Falang musicians playing for free is any sort of problem, for thinking Thai people. This will not give the local Thias who play music one bhat more but may benefit a few tea tax collectors for the short time.A vibrant and diverse music scene helps everyone by creating many interesting places to go and see live music. Playing an instrument for a few songs on stage without getting paid is no different from signing a few songs on stage without pay. To me it's another sad day for the Falang and Thai communities who play or enjoy music.

Well said!

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

What I wonder is if the authorities would prosecute a foreigner for participating in a Traditional Thai dance or song? and if this is an effort of xenophobic cultural arts protectionism?

No idea really. It sounds like news one would hear from a country like Saudi Arabia, North Korea or Iran and not a "free" country like Thailand.

[lannarebirth]

Spent an enjoyable evening tonight attending a music competition between the local international schools. A lot of talented young performers; Thai, Luk Kreung, Farang and Korean. Tickets were sold to the event and food and beverages were available for sale. The children of course performed for free. Given the circumstances are identical to the busts they made previously, I'm glad the police didn't charge in to break up the event because it would have ruined a wonderful experience shared by all.

http://www.blackmoss.org/htm/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=11&Itemid=105

Edited April 24, 2011 by lannarebirth

[hehehoho]

There is evil intention behind this, NOBOBY benefits from this action.

Am pretty sure those who sell them their freedom will benefit from it.

Thai culture.