5 More Musicians Jailed

[Kilgore Trout]

Law hasn't been decided on these cases as they are still waiting to go to court. So no law has been shown to be broken yet.

A little empathy for the wives and children of these people who are facing an uncertain future might not go amiss either. How would your families cope if you were deported or jailed for a possible minor infringement of an ill defined and un-enforced (for 10 years++)law?

Working without a work permit is a deporting offence in almost every country that plays the 'work permit' game.

That includes the EU, Australia and the USA.

It's hardly a minor infringement of the law and at least one of the five had been boasting about earning a living as a musician without a work permit for ages.

The question is; what is considered work? and how that is being interpreted by immigration. But I agree that someone boasting about earning a living without a work permit has nothing to complain about.

[DavidOxon]

Law hasn't been decided on these cases as they are still waiting to go to court. So no law has been shown to be broken yet.

A little empathy for the wives and children of these people who are facing an uncertain future might not go amiss either. How would your families cope if you were deported or jailed for a possible minor infringement of an ill defined and un-enforced (for 10 years++)law?

Working without a work permit is a deporting offence in almost every country that plays the 'work permit' game.

That includes the EU, Australia and the USA.

It's hardly a minor infringement of the law and at least one of the five had been boasting about earning a living as a musician without a work permit for ages.

The question is; what is considered work? and how that is being interpreted by immigration. But I agree that someone boasting about earning a living without a work permit has nothing to complain about.

I agree too.

[buddhalady]

Law hasn't been decided on these cases as they are still waiting to go to court. So no law has been shown to be broken yet.

A little empathy for the wives and children of these people who are facing an uncertain future might not go amiss either. How would your families cope if you were deported or jailed for a possible minor infringement of an ill defined and un-enforced (for 10 years++)law?

Nice point, David, especially the 'ill-defined and un-enforced for 10 years++' point. This law, like so many others, is not defined, perhaps because that's the way 'they' want it.

As far as I understand it, farangs are on a hiding to nothing if they do anything at all of a volunteering nature, without pay, especially if they are on retirement visas, which kick in at 50 , if I remember correctly. At least, at last' year's seminar attended by the Minister of Labour, that's what the man said - somthing along the lines of 'if you're here as a retiree, that means you do nothing. Odd that I don't see that comment or a warning to that effect on any of the 'retire in CM' or housing development websites.

Even joining in at a karaoke-style evening or doing a bit for non- missionary charities ...This issue has nothing to do with one muso putting it about he's living off his jamming, it's about - someone mentioned this earlier in the thread - human rights and the right to show you're happy. It sems we're all terrified of falling foul of deliberately vague laws. This is not the way to live.

[Greenside]

Law hasn't been decided on these cases as they are still waiting to go to court. So no law has been shown to be broken yet.

A little empathy for the wives and children of these people who are facing an uncertain future might not go amiss either. How would your families cope if you were deported or jailed for a possible minor infringement of an ill defined and un-enforced (for 10 years++)law?

Nice point, David, especially the 'ill-defined and un-enforced for 10 years++' point. This law, like so many others, is not defined, perhaps because that's the way 'they' want it.

As far as I understand it, farangs are on a hiding to nothing if they do anything at all of a volunteering nature, without pay, especially if they are on retirement visas, which kick in at 50 , if I remember correctly. At least, at last' year's seminar attended by the Minister of Labour, that's what the man said - somthing along the lines of 'if you're here as a retiree, that means you do nothing. Odd that I don't see that comment or a warning to that effect on any of the 'retire in CM' or housing development websites.

Even joining in at a karaoke-style evening or doing a bit for non- missionary charities ...This issue has nothing to do with one muso putting it about he's living off his jamming, it's about - someone mentioned this earlier in the thread - human rights and the right to show you're happy. It seems we're all terrified of falling foul of deliberately vague laws. This is not the way to live.

Living here (or perhaps anywhere) as an expat almost necessarily involves a life walking on eggshells. The mai pen rai attitude to law enforcement and (deliberately?) vague way regulations are drafted surely means that whether you've really broken any, someone, somewhere can probably come up with some minor infraction leading to trouble and stress at the very least. Hard evidence may be mostly anecdotal, but get into a traffic accident say, with the arrogant son or daughter of a local official, stand your ground and then imagine how you'd feel in the run-up to your next visa renewal. Nervous at the very least, I'd expect. Sick with worry for many who have made a serious commitment to settling here, perhaps.

In a way, I suppose it's a testament to the attractions of the Kingdom that so many of us decide to make our home here despite these things. Many, if not most, minority groups around the world are in a similar position so we should count ourselves pretty lucky that for the most part we have a roof over our heads and (great) food to eat.

[CMSteve]

I think "retire" by definition means you do not work. Otherwise, you would be semi-retired or not retired at all.

I'm a little confused on what we are talking about in reference to the law be ill defined? Are we waiting for a list of things that can and can not be done?

My personal belief is that there are only two types of people that press for clarification of the law.

1. Someone trying to make a difference, possibly seeing an inconsistency in the law and attempting to define and fix that/those laws.

- these people make these attempt even though they are not in trouble and haven't done anything to break the law.

2. Someone who broke the law and is looking for a way out.

- these people have broken a law and will do anything to make it look like the problem stems from the other side.

Please feel free to add to the list if you know of other people/cases who attempt to clarify the law that don't fit into these two categories.

[venturalaw]

I think "retire" by definition means you do not work. Otherwise, you would be semi-retired or not retired at all.

I'm a little confused on what we are talking about in reference to the law be ill defined? Are we waiting for a list of things that can and can not be done?

My personal belief is that there are only two types of people that press for clarification of the law.

1. Someone trying to make a difference, possibly seeing an inconsistency in the law and attempting to define and fix that/those laws.

- these people make these attempt even though they are not in trouble and haven't done anything to break the law.

2. Someone who broke the law and is looking for a way out.

- these people have broken a law and will do anything to make it look like the problem stems from the other side.

Please feel free to add to the list if you know of other people/cases who attempt to clarify the law that don't fit into these two categories.

To retire is to cease 'earning a living'. However, being retired does not preclude one from contributing to society via volunteer work. The subject law bars volunteer work, which is frustrating for many.

Edited May 19, 2011 by venturalaw

[CMSteve]

Not really. Most retirees continue to earn a living (ie pensions, investments, etc),but they do not work. The term semi-retired refers to people that work part time or something less than full time, it has nothing to do with their earnings.

The law in Thailand does preclude a retired person from volunteering, hence the necessity of a volunteer visa and work permit.

I think "retire" by definition means you do not work. Otherwise, you would be semi-retired or not retired at all.

I'm a little confused on what we are talking about in reference to the law be ill defined? Are we waiting for a list of things that can and can not be done?

My personal belief is that there are only two types of people that press for clarification of the law.

1. Someone trying to make a difference, possibly seeing an inconsistency in the law and attempting to define and fix that/those laws.

- these people make these attempt even though they are not in trouble and haven't done anything to break the law.

2. Someone who broke the law and is looking for a way out.

- these people have broken a law and will do anything to make it look like the problem stems from the other side.

Please feel free to add to the list if you know of other people/cases who attempt to clarify the law that don't fit into these two categories.

To retire is to cease 'earning a living'. However, being retired does not preclude one from contributing to society via volunteer work. The subject law bars volunteer work, which is frustrating for many.

[Kilgore Trout]

I think "retire" by definition means you do not work. Otherwise, you would be semi-retired or not retired at all.

I'm a little confused on what we are talking about in reference to the law be ill defined? Are we waiting for a list of things that can and can not be done?

My personal belief is that there are only two types of people that press for clarification of the law.

1. Someone trying to make a difference, possibly seeing an inconsistency in the law and attempting to define and fix that/those laws.

- these people make these attempt even though they are not in trouble and haven't done anything to break the law.

2. Someone who broke the law and is looking for a way out.

- these people have broken a law and will do anything to make it look like the problem stems from the other side.

Please feel free to add to the list if you know of other people/cases who attempt to clarify the law that don't fit into these two categories.

The law is very vague, and yes there is a big long list of jobs that foreigners are explicitly prohibited from doing whether for pay or for free.

For example; the way the law is written a "retiree" could be arrested for gardening in his own back yard (the law specifically prohibits foreigners from doing gardening work (manual labor) and as written in the law, could be interpreted as taking a job away from a Thai.

You can see how slippery the slope is, yes? Another example would be putting on a CD at your own party, as a work permit would be required to dj.

[CMSteve]

I agree that this could prove to be a slippery slope in regards to how and when foreigners can/will be charged with "working" in public, but the examples listed are bogus. Nobody has been charged with doing their own gardening at their home or DJ'ing a party at there home. I've heard someone make allusions to something happening a long time ago.....etc.(urban legend)

I am not happy to hear that people are incarcerated, but I believe there is more to this case than some people playing music one time while they are on vacation here in Thailand.

BTW, was this an "open mic" night where anybody can get up on stage, or was this a jam session with just one band playing for a few songs? We were also talking about retirement visa and what is permissable with a retirement visa, am I right in assuming these guys are older and on retirement visas?

I think "retire" by definition means you do not work. Otherwise, you would be semi-retired or not retired at all.

I'm a little confused on what we are talking about in reference to the law be ill defined? Are we waiting for a list of things that can and can not be done?

My personal belief is that there are only two types of people that press for clarification of the law.

1. Someone trying to make a difference, possibly seeing an inconsistency in the law and attempting to define and fix that/those laws.

- these people make these attempt even though they are not in trouble and haven't done anything to break the law.

2. Someone who broke the law and is looking for a way out.

- these people have broken a law and will do anything to make it look like the problem stems from the other side.

Please feel free to add to the list if you know of other people/cases who attempt to clarify the law that don't fit into these two categories.

The law is very vague, and yes there is a big long list of jobs that foreigners are explicitly prohibited from doing whether for pay or for free.

For example; the way the law is written a "retiree" could be arrested for gardening in his own back yard (the law specifically prohibits foreigners from doing gardening work (manual labor) and as written in the law, could be interpreted as taking a job away from a Thai.

You can see how slippery the slope is, yes? Another example would be putting on a CD at your own party, as a work permit would be required to dj.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

The law is very vague, and yes there is a big long list of jobs that foreigners are explicitly prohibited from doing whether for pay or for free.

For example; the way the law is written a "retiree" could be arrested for gardening in his own back yard (the law specifically prohibits foreigners from doing gardening work (manual labor) and as written in the law, could be interpreted as taking a job away from a Thai.

Ehm.. No. Gardener is not a restricted profession. Actually very few of the restricted professions impact Western foreigners at all, the main one being 'tour guide and tourist organising agency'. All the other ones are in the category of manual labor like brick laying, hair cutting, alms bowl making and so on.

See: http://www.mfa.go.th/web/160.php

So no need to feel worried about planting some petunias in your property owner's garden.

Also the list of restricted professions does not apply in this particular topic; it is not that 'musician' is a restricted profession, the issue was that playing music was deemed 'work' (which is what most of the debate has been about) and that the performers did not have a work permit for this particular activity and location.

Anyway, the above is mostly to add some facts on the specific example you stated. The larger point you made that there is a massive gray area and indeed a slippery slope that relates to doing just about anything in Thailand of course stands.

Edited May 19, 2011 by WinnieTheKhwai

[surayu]

I've heard someone make allusions to something happening a long time ago.....etc.(urban legend)

What about people being harassed and told they will be arrested while going to buy some stationary during their lunch breaks, just because things like "buying a pen" it's not allowed by your work permit, or a foreigner being told he will be arrested if he doesn't stop showing up at his girlfriend's coffee-shop, just his presence for the police seems to be a crime, and what about those people with all their pictures being publicated on the newspapers for the crime of getting caught having comsenting sex with other willfull adults in their own private homes ??? The example quoted before suit perfectly the reality of the thai system, actually the real deal is even much more weird if you keep an eye on the local news....not the advertising campaigns from TAT

[montrii]

I agree that this could prove to be a slippery slope in regards to how and when foreigners can/will be charged with "working" in public, but the examples listed are bogus. Nobody has been charged with doing their own gardening at their home or DJ'ing a party at there home. I've heard someone make allusions to something happening a long time ago.....etc.(urban legend)

I am not happy to hear that people are incarcerated, but I believe there is more to this case than some people playing music one time while they are on vacation here in Thailand.

BTW, was this an "open mic" night where anybody can get up on stage, or was this a jam session with just one band playing for a few songs? We were also talking about retirement visa and what is permissable with a retirement visa, am I right in assuming these guys are older and on retirement visas?

I see a lot of confusion here. I tried to help clear this up before, but quit after someone accused me of being long-winded. Will try to be brief:

1. One of these cases involves at least one farang who was doing something illegal, I think everyone can agree . . . he was a regular on the gig and did not have a work permit for it. This is not what we are talking about. If he broke the law, he takes the consequences. End of story. We don't need to talk about that anymore. But the SECOND bust, which is the one that got my attention, was not like that.

2. As I understand it, the case at the North Gate was completely different. "jamming" is what I did when I was there in February. Got up, played a couple of songs, went back, nursed my beer, and listened. Two days later I went back to Bangkok. This is what "jamming" is. Thais don't get paid for it when they sit in, and neither do Farangs. Musicians know that when they come to Chiengmai they can sit in at North Gate, so it's on their itinerary. None of these people come all the time, but different people come in on different days or weeks, usually just for a tune or two. Nobody ever gets paid for jamming. Apparently some farangs who were jamming there one night, doing pretty much what I did, got thrown in the pokey for it. THIS is the issue: was THIS illegal?

Some say yes, some say no. I say that as far as I can see, it's "no." Since it's not a service that is paid for, no matter whether a Thai does it or someone of any other nationality does it, I do not see how it falls under the work permit law.

A lot of people on this thread have said very pious words to the effect that farangs breaking the law deserve to be punished, and some have even specified their preferred punishment, which included being banned from the country for life. I assume that these critics themselves live in houses not made of glass, to throw such righteous stones, but I'm wondering if they, or most of the people here, really know what "jamming" is and have a good reason for thinking it's illegal.

North Gate, as many jazz clubs worldwide, has a kind of perpetual open mike. They pay all-Thai bands to play there (some quite good) and they get some respectable foreign tourist/musicians through, and lots of folks get up there and play. The audience enjoys it, the Thai musicians usually enjoy it, and of course the farang musicians have fun. Nobody loses work, because the band would not be hiring extra players if no one sat in.

Surely everyone knows that the police in Thailand have many other reasons for busting people than that they might be breaking a law. This, also, has been pointed out.

This, casual jamming, not the clear breaking of the work permit law, is the issue here.

Edited May 19, 2011 by montrii

[Kilgore Trout]

The law is very vague, and yes there is a big long list of jobs that foreigners are explicitly prohibited from doing whether for pay or for free.

For example; the way the law is written a "retiree" could be arrested for gardening in his own back yard (the law specifically prohibits foreigners from doing gardening work (manual labor) and as written in the law, could be interpreted as taking a job away from a Thai.

Ehm.. No. Gardener is not a restricted profession. Actually very few of the restricted professions impact Western foreigners at all, the main one being 'tour guide and tourist organising agency'. All the other ones are in the category of manual labor like brick laying, hair cutting, alms bowl making and so on.

See: http://www.mfa.go.th/web/160.php

So no need to feel worried about planting some petunias in your property owner's garden.

Also the list of restricted professions does not apply in this particular topic; it is not that 'musician' is a restricted profession, the issue was that playing music was deemed 'work' (which is what most of the debate has been about) and that the performers did not have a work permit for this particular activity and location.

Anyway, the above is mostly to add some facts on the specific example you stated. The larger point you made that there is a massive gray area and indeed a slippery slope that relates to doing just about anything in Thailand of course stands.

Not to be pedantic; I accept your point but; how can gardening not be considered labour?

Point being that if you do your own gardening then you are taking away a job you would otherwise have to pay (a Thai) to do?

Not that it has ever been used this way but the way the law is written seems to me possible; and thats what the problem is really; the way the law is written.

[Diablo Bob]

The law is very vague, and yes there is a big long list of jobs that foreigners are explicitly prohibited from doing whether for pay or for free.

For example; the way the law is written a "retiree" could be arrested for gardening in his own back yard (the law specifically prohibits foreigners from doing gardening work (manual labor) and as written in the law, could be interpreted as taking a job away from a Thai.

Ehm.. No. Gardener is not a restricted profession. Actually very few of the restricted professions impact Western foreigners at all, the main one being 'tour guide and tourist organising agency'. All the other ones are in the category of manual labor like brick laying, hair cutting, alms bowl making and so on.

See: http://www.mfa.go.th/web/160.php

So no need to feel worried about planting some petunias in your property owner's garden.

Also the list of restricted professions does not apply in this particular topic; it is not that 'musician' is a restricted profession, the issue was that playing music was deemed 'work' (which is what most of the debate has been about) and that the performers did not have a work permit for this particular activity and location.

Anyway, the above is mostly to add some facts on the specific example you stated. The larger point you made that there is a massive gray area and indeed a slippery slope that relates to doing just about anything in Thailand of course stands.

I don't know Winnie, legal and litigation are also prohibited, seems like a lot of "Legal" opinions on this thread. Are they breaking the law????

[CMSteve]

Your examples are even more off the mark than the ones previously stated.

1 - People harassed for buying pens. - (I'm calling bullsh_t on this one) just for fun though; There are unscrupulous people working for law enforcement too. If they try to make a few baht with a threat they should be dealt with, but this has nothing to with with breaking a law, visa infringement, or retirement issues. ((I've purchased a few pens recently, but no one bothered me, also bought an eraser...shhh! don't tell)

2 - Maybe the police officer thinks the foreigner is hitting on his girlfriend.( I know that not what you meant.to say...). Again this is another threat, sounds like another personal ploy to get a few baht. Nothing to do with the law.

3 - Willful and in a private home, but prostitution is still illegal. Would you try the same argument if caught smoking crack in your bathroom?( not YOU specifically)

What did the newspaper claim as the reason for posting their pictures?

I've heard someone make allusions to something happening a long time ago.....etc.(urban legend)

What about people being harassed and told they will be arrested while going to buy some stationary during their lunch breaks, just because things like "buying a pen" it's not allowed by your work permit, or a foreigner being told he will be arrested if he doesn't stop showing up at his girlfriend's coffee-shop, just his presence for the police seems to be a crime, and what about those people with all their pictures being publicated on the newspapers for the crime of getting caught having comsenting sex with other willfull adults in their own private homes ??? The example quoted before suit perfectly the reality of the thai system, actually the real deal is even much more weird if you keep an eye on the local news....not the advertising campaigns from TAT

[CMSteve]

Ok, that make a bit more sense. So this was not a band, just five guys that showed up and played a few songs together?

I agree that this could prove to be a slippery slope in regards to how and when foreigners can/will be charged with "working" in public, but the examples listed are bogus. Nobody has been charged with doing their own gardening at their home or DJ'ing a party at there home. I've heard someone make allusions to something happening a long time ago.....etc.(urban legend)

I am not happy to hear that people are incarcerated, but I believe there is more to this case than some people playing music one time while they are on vacation here in Thailand.

BTW, was this an "open mic" night where anybody can get up on stage, or was this a jam session with just one band playing for a few songs? We were also talking about retirement visa and what is permissable with a retirement visa, am I right in assuming these guys are older and on retirement visas?

I see a lot of confusion here. I tried to help clear this up before, but quit after someone accused me of being long-winded. Will try to be brief:

1. One of these cases involves at least one farang who was doing something illegal, I think everyone can agree . . . he was a regular on the gig and did not have a work permit for it. This is not what we are talking about. If he broke the law, he takes the consequences. End of story. We don't need to talk about that anymore. But the SECOND bust, which is the one that got my attention, was not like that.

2. As I understand it, the case at the North Gate was completely different. "jamming" is what I did when I was there in February. Got up, played a couple of songs, went back, nursed my beer, and listened. Two days later I went back to Bangkok. This is what "jamming" is. Thais don't get paid for it when they sit in, and neither do Farangs. Musicians know that when they come to Chiengmai they can sit in at North Gate, so it's on their itinerary. None of these people come all the time, but different people come in on different days or weeks, usually just for a tune or two. Nobody ever gets paid for jamming. Apparently some farangs who were jamming there one night, doing pretty much what I did, got thrown in the pokey for it. THIS is the issue: was THIS illegal?

Some say yes, some say no. I say that as far as I can see, it's "no." Since it's not a service that is paid for, no matter whether a Thai does it or someone of any other nationality does it, I do not see how it falls under the work permit law.

A lot of people on this thread have said very pious words to the effect that farangs breaking the law deserve to be punished, and some have even specified their preferred punishment, which included being banned from the country for life. I assume that these critics themselves live in houses not made of glass, to throw such righteous stones, but I'm wondering if they, or most of the people here, really know what "jamming" is and have a good reason for thinking it's illegal.

North Gate, as many jazz clubs worldwide, has a kind of perpetual open mike. They pay all-Thai bands to play there (some quite good) and they get some respectable foreign tourist/musicians through, and lots of folks get up there and play. The audience enjoys it, the Thai musicians usually enjoy it, and of course the farang musicians have fun. Nobody loses work, because the band would not be hiring extra players if no one sat in.

Surely everyone knows that the police in Thailand have many other reasons for busting people than that they might be breaking a law. This, also, has been pointed out.

This, casual jamming, not the clear breaking of the work permit law, is the issue here.

[montrii]

Ok, that make a bit more sense. So this was not a band, just five guys that showed up and played a few songs together?

My understanding is that this is what happened. Nobody's given any specifics except that it was a very unexpected thing, because jamming is a tradition at North Gate. This is the kind of fun that a musician on holiday does. And if there are some non-working musicians in Chiengmai, they might occasionally drop in here. I live in Bkk and occasionally sit in at Saxophone or other places. The Oriental Hotel has a jam session on Sunday nights, I go there sometimes. This is a standard part of a jazz musician's world, and not a place where anyone ever expects to get paid. Non-musicians may not know this, but for us it's a social event and a learning event, and keeps us in touch with our music. I don't think this can be called "work," at least not legitimately.

So far I've only heard of one guy out of all of this who actually was working, where according to what I'd consider the law he was legitimately busted. Maybe there are more. But the ones at North Gate, I doubt it very much. The place is famous in musician circles as a place to jam.

Actually it is probably not "five guys who got up together." When I got up the first time, there were 2 sax players from Australia sitting in, so in addition to the 5-piece band, there were 3 more. The band called a tune after consulting with us, then we played on that tune. The second time I was the only one, and they invited me up, and I did one or 2 tunes, can't remember. It was fun, they were a good bunch. The whole thing was a positive experience, no downside.

I agree that this could prove to be a slippery slope in regards to how and when foreigners can/will be charged with "working" in public, but the examples listed are bogus. Nobody has been charged with doing their own gardening at their home or DJ'ing a party at there home. I've heard someone make allusions to something happening a long time ago.....etc.(urban legend)

I am not happy to hear that people are incarcerated, but I believe there is more to this case than some people playing music one time while they are on vacation here in Thailand.

BTW, was this an "open mic" night where anybody can get up on stage, or was this a jam session with just one band playing for a few songs? We were also talking about retirement visa and what is permissable with a retirement visa, am I right in assuming these guys are older and on retirement visas?

I see a lot of confusion here. I tried to help clear this up before, but quit after someone accused me of being long-winded. Will try to be brief:

1. One of these cases involves at least one farang who was doing something illegal, I think everyone can agree . . . he was a regular on the gig and did not have a work permit for it. This is not what we are talking about. If he broke the law, he takes the consequences. End of story. We don't need to talk about that anymore. But the SECOND bust, which is the one that got my attention, was not like that.

2. As I understand it, the case at the North Gate was completely different. "jamming" is what I did when I was there in February. Got up, played a couple of songs, went back, nursed my beer, and listened. Two days later I went back to Bangkok. This is what "jamming" is. Thais don't get paid for it when they sit in, and neither do Farangs. Musicians know that when they come to Chiengmai they can sit in at North Gate, so it's on their itinerary. None of these people come all the time, but different people come in on different days or weeks, usually just for a tune or two. Nobody ever gets paid for jamming. Apparently some farangs who were jamming there one night, doing pretty much what I did, got thrown in the pokey for it. THIS is the issue: was THIS illegal?

Some say yes, some say no. I say that as far as I can see, it's "no." Since it's not a service that is paid for, no matter whether a Thai does it or someone of any other nationality does it, I do not see how it falls under the work permit law.

A lot of people on this thread have said very pious words to the effect that farangs breaking the law deserve to be punished, and some have even specified their preferred punishment, which included being banned from the country for life. I assume that these critics themselves live in houses not made of glass, to throw such righteous stones, but I'm wondering if they, or most of the people here, really know what "jamming" is and have a good reason for thinking it's illegal.

North Gate, as many jazz clubs worldwide, has a kind of perpetual open mike. They pay all-Thai bands to play there (some quite good) and they get some respectable foreign tourist/musicians through, and lots of folks get up there and play. The audience enjoys it, the Thai musicians usually enjoy it, and of course the farang musicians have fun. Nobody loses work, because the band would not be hiring extra players if no one sat in.

Surely everyone knows that the police in Thailand have many other reasons for busting people than that they might be breaking a law. This, also, has been pointed out.

This, casual jamming, not the clear breaking of the work permit law, is the issue here.

Edited May 19, 2011 by montrii

[surayu]

Your examples are even more off the mark than the ones previously stated.

1 - People harassed for buying pens. - (I'm calling bullsh_t on this one) just for fun though; There are unscrupulous people working for law enforcement too. If they try to make a few baht with a threat they should be dealt with, but this has nothing to with with breaking a law, visa infringement, or retirement issues. ((I've purchased a few pens recently, but no one bothered me, also bought an eraser...shhh! don't tell)

Did you read about all those guys riding without a helmet because they have never been fined? or those staying illegally because they have never been caught? not much difference, but yes, sshhh

2 - Maybe the police officer thinks the foreigner is hitting on his girlfriend.( I know that not what you meant.to say...). Again this is another threat, sounds like another personal ploy to get a few baht. Nothing to do with the law.

Yes it's very likely that it's another ploy by them, however when you see that no action is being taken against these corrupted law enforcers, what does it tell you? either that's the law or they are all corrupted, much to do with the law in some ways or another....

3 - Willful and in a private home, but prostitution is still illegal. Would you try the same argument if caught smoking crack in your bathroom?( not YOU specifically)

What did the newspaper claim as the reason for posting their pictures?

There was no prostitution involved, nor drugs, we are talking about that very evil crime, "sex"

[yesterday]

Ok, that make a bit more sense. So this was not a band, just five guys that showed up and played a few songs together?

My understanding is that this is what happened. Nobody's given any specifics except that it was a very unexpected thing, because jamming is a tradition at North Gate. This is the kind of fun that a musician on holiday does. And if there are some non-working musicians in Chiengmai, they might occasionally drop in here. I live in Bkk and occasionally sit in at Saxophone or other places. The Oriental Hotel has a jam session on Sunday nights, I go there sometimes. This is a standard part of a jazz musician's world, and not a place where anyone ever expects to get paid. Non-musicians may not know this, but for us it's a social event and a learning event, and keeps us in touch with our music. I don't think this can be called "work," at least not legitimately.

So far I've only heard of one guy out of all of this who actually was working, where according to what I'd consider the law he was legitimately busted. Maybe there are more. But the ones at North Gate, I doubt it very much. The place is famous in musician circles as a place to jam.

Actually it is probably not "five guys who got up together." When I got up the first time, there were 2 sax players from Australia sitting in, so in addition to the 5-piece band, there were 3 more. The band called a tune after consulting with us, then we played on that tune. The second time I was the only one, and they invited me up, and I did one or 2 tunes, can't remember. It was fun, they were a good bunch. The whole thing was a positive experience, no downside.

I agree that this could prove to be a slippery slope in regards to how and when foreigners can/will be charged with "working" in public, but the examples listed are bogus. Nobody has been charged with doing their own gardening at their home or DJ'ing a party at there home. I've heard someone make allusions to something happening a long time ago.....etc.(urban legend)

I am not happy to hear that people are incarcerated, but I believe there is more to this case than some people playing music one time while they are on vacation here in Thailand.

BTW, was this an "open mic" night where anybody can get up on stage, or was this a jam session with just one band playing for a few songs? We were also talking about retirement visa and what is permissable with a retirement visa, am I right in assuming these guys are older and on retirement visas?

I see a lot of confusion here. I tried to help clear this up before, but quit after someone accused me of being long-winded. Will try to be brief:

1. One of these cases involves at least one farang who was doing something illegal, I think everyone can agree . . . he was a regular on the gig and did not have a work permit for it. This is not what we are talking about. If he broke the law, he takes the consequences. End of story. We don't need to talk about that anymore. But the SECOND bust, which is the one that got my attention, was not like that.

2. As I understand it, the case at the North Gate was completely different. "jamming" is what I did when I was there in February. Got up, played a couple of songs, went back, nursed my beer, and listened. Two days later I went back to Bangkok. This is what "jamming" is. Thais don't get paid for it when they sit in, and neither do Farangs. Musicians know that when they come to Chiengmai they can sit in at North Gate, so it's on their itinerary. None of these people come all the time, but different people come in on different days or weeks, usually just for a tune or two. Nobody ever gets paid for jamming. Apparently some farangs who were jamming there one night, doing pretty much what I did, got thrown in the pokey for it. THIS is the issue: was THIS illegal?

Some say yes, some say no. I say that as far as I can see, it's "no." Since it's not a service that is paid for, no matter whether a Thai does it or someone of any other nationality does it, I do not see how it falls under the work permit law.

A lot of people on this thread have said very pious words to the effect that farangs breaking the law deserve to be punished, and some have even specified their preferred punishment, which included being banned from the country for life. I assume that these critics themselves live in houses not made of glass, to throw such righteous stones, but I'm wondering if they, or most of the people here, really know what "jamming" is and have a good reason for thinking it's illegal.

North Gate, as many jazz clubs worldwide, has a kind of perpetual open mike. They pay all-Thai bands to play there (some quite good) and they get some respectable foreign tourist/musicians through, and lots of folks get up there and play. The audience enjoys it, the Thai musicians usually enjoy it, and of course the farang musicians have fun. Nobody loses work, because the band would not be hiring extra players if no one sat in.

Surely everyone knows that the police in Thailand have many other reasons for busting people than that they might be breaking a law. This, also, has been pointed out.

This, casual jamming, not the clear breaking of the work permit law, is the issue here.

What? de jaz club different than the other place, no, not at all, you had a bar owner with boys playing without work permits,it doesn't mattter jambing,cramming,soft landings,piwamming hellssaming,call it what you will and get over it..., wright all the BS in the world it changes nothing and is just getting darn silly too.

The jaz club is a biz making $ off selling drinks using Tuesday night to rake it in using -WORKING the people ,the musicains to make a profit selling his booze,non paid? No the palce charges money it is a working business. get it? It is called working ,the bar is a working money making place,it is not a charity you find no monks or nuns ,you have to pay to drink there it ain't free ,get it now??

Making $ not paying Thai's on Tuesday ,not paying legal Joes with work permits is illegal doing it for love of music ,in memory of Billy tayler and George Shearing,"it doesn't mean sh-- to a tree" here so get over it...

[venturalaw]

Not really. Most retirees continue to earn a living (ie pensions, investments, etc),but they do not work. The term semi-retired refers to people that work part time or something less than full time, it has nothing to do with their earnings.

The law in Thailand does preclude a retired person from volunteering, hence the necessity of a volunteer visa and work permit.

I think "retire" by definition means you do not work. Otherwise, you would be semi-retired or not retired at all.

I'm a little confused on what we are talking about in reference to the law be ill defined? Are we waiting for a list of things that can and can not be done?

My personal belief is that there are only two types of people that press for clarification of the law.

1. Someone trying to make a difference, possibly seeing an inconsistency in the law and attempting to define and fix that/those laws.

- these people make these attempt even though they are not in trouble and haven't done anything to break the law.

2. Someone who broke the law and is looking for a way out.

- these people have broken a law and will do anything to make it look like the problem stems from the other side.

Please feel free to add to the list if you know of other people/cases who attempt to clarify the law that don't fit into these two categories.

To retire is to cease 'earning a living'. However, being retired does not preclude one from contributing to society via volunteer work. The subject law bars volunteer work, which is frustrating for many.

As you pointed out there are alternative ways of surviving - receiving money, other than by working. Receiving income via a pension (based upon previous employment) or via investment(s) is not "earning" (unless in the case of investment(s), one is moving the money, or re-investing). What I said was not incorrect. You merely stated examples of receiving money other than by employment and incorrectly referred to it as earning. Those people are retired, and, as I said, if they wished to volunteer without a work permit (for which they are ineligible if on a retirement visa) they would be violating Thai law.

[venturalaw]

The law is very vague, and yes there is a big long list of jobs that foreigners are explicitly prohibited from doing whether for pay or for free.

For example; the way the law is written a "retiree" could be arrested for gardening in his own back yard (the law specifically prohibits foreigners from doing gardening work (manual labor) and as written in the law, could be interpreted as taking a job away from a Thai.

Ehm.. No. Gardener is not a restricted profession. Actually very few of the restricted professions impact Western foreigners at all, the main one being 'tour guide and tourist organising agency'. All the other ones are in the category of manual labor like brick laying, hair cutting, alms bowl making and so on.

See: http://www.mfa.go.th/web/160.php

So no need to feel worried about planting some petunias in your property owner's garden.

Also the list of restricted professions does not apply in this particular topic; it is not that 'musician' is a restricted profession, the issue was that playing music was deemed 'work' (which is what most of the debate has been about) and that the performers did not have a work permit for this particular activity and location.

Anyway, the above is mostly to add some facts on the specific example you stated. The larger point you made that there is a massive gray area and indeed a slippery slope that relates to doing just about anything in Thailand of course stands.

More importantly if you are gardening in your garden, it does not matter for that is not (although it may feel like it) "work" because work must be for the benefit of another. Now, for instance, if you were gardening in your garden, but technically it is, for example, your wife's garden since she is perhaps Thai and therefore owner of the house and garden, then you would be in violation of the law since you would be performing a service for someone other than yourself.

[DavidOxon]

one of the guys at Guitarman was only passing through... it seems he was allowed to go (after a night in pokey) Just resident's they seem to be after!

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Not to be pedantic; I accept your point but; how can gardening not be considered labour?

Point being that if you do your own gardening then you are taking away a job you would otherwise have to pay (a Thai) to do?

Right, but at some point 'reason' must take over; I could say the same about cooking breakfast, changing my baby son's diapers or clipping my toenails. I could get a local person to do it for me. (I could get a local person to jack off for me in the morning, but at some point you gotta draw a line right?

Not that it has ever been used this way but the way the law is written seems to me possible; and thats what the problem is really; the way the law is written.

Right, so in that sense I very much agree with you that it is indeed a slippery slope. And would like to repeat my earlier point that this legal gray area seems almost deliberate in this country; the result is that nobody is equal under the law, it all depends on who you pay, and/or who you are buddies with. Applies to a whole lot of things in Thailand.

[Kilgore Trout]

The law is very vague, and yes there is a big long list of jobs that foreigners are explicitly prohibited from doing whether for pay or for free.

For example; the way the law is written a "retiree" could be arrested for gardening in his own back yard (the law specifically prohibits foreigners from doing gardening work (manual labor) and as written in the law, could be interpreted as taking a job away from a Thai.

Ehm.. No. Gardener is not a restricted profession. Actually very few of the restricted professions impact Western foreigners at all, the main one being 'tour guide and tourist organising agency'. All the other ones are in the category of manual labor like brick laying, hair cutting, alms bowl making and so on.

See: http://www.mfa.go.th/web/160.php

So no need to feel worried about planting some petunias in your property owner's garden.

Also the list of restricted professions does not apply in this particular topic; it is not that 'musician' is a restricted profession, the issue was that playing music was deemed 'work' (which is what most of the debate has been about) and that the performers did not have a work permit for this particular activity and location.

Anyway, the above is mostly to add some facts on the specific example you stated. The larger point you made that there is a massive gray area and indeed a slippery slope that relates to doing just about anything in Thailand of course stands.

More importantly if you are gardening in your garden, it does not matter for that is not (although it may feel like it) "work" because work must be for the benefit of another. Now, for instance, if you were gardening in your garden, but technically it is, for example, your wife's garden since she is perhaps Thai and therefore owner of the house and garden, then you would be in violation of the law since you would be performing a service for someone other than yourself.

So would driving her to the mall to do some shopping get you done for being a chaufer?

Unfortunately for the poor boys done for jamming who did nothing wrong (you heard me yesterday) it is not a laughing matter.

[venturalaw]

Who is laughing? I'm pointing out how ridiculously far reaching the law is. It covers, for instance, if someone is here on vacation, answers an email and instructs his/her secretary to "Yes, deposit that check into the operations account." That is 'work', and therefore in violation. It's insane.

[cm das]

2. As I understand it, the case at the North Gate was completely different. "jamming" is what I did when I was there in February. Got up, played a couple of songs, went back, nursed my beer, and listened. Two days later I went back to Bangkok. This is what "jamming" is. Thais don't get paid for it when they sit in, and neither do Farangs. Musicians know that when they come to Chiengmai they can sit in at North Gate, so it's on their itinerary. None of these people come all the time, but different people come in on different days or weeks, usually just for a tune or two. Nobody ever gets paid for jamming. Apparently some farangs who were jamming there one night, doing pretty much what I did, got thrown in the pokey for it. THIS is the issue: was THIS illegal?

Some say yes, some say no. I say that as far as I can see, it's "no." Since it's not a service that is paid for, no matter whether a Thai does it or someone of any other nationality does it, I do not see how it falls under the work permit law.

North Gate, as many jazz clubs worldwide, has a kind of perpetual open mike. They pay all-Thai bands to play there (some quite good) and they get some respectable foreign tourist/musicians through, and lots of folks get up there and play. The audience enjoys it, the Thai musicians usually enjoy it, and of course the farang musicians have fun. Nobody loses work, because the band would not be hiring extra players if no one sat in.

I agree with your overall sentiments, montrii, but I'm afraid the completely innocent picture you paint of north gate simply isn't accurate. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of north gate & I think they are an important part of the overall cultural scene in Chiang Mai (not just the music scene). Yes it's a welcoming place for musicians of many types and abilities. Yes, most jammers are just casual visitors. But to describe north gate as a perpetual open mike where jammers never get paid just isn't right. And I say this having been around the place on & off since it opened, and having jammed there many times myself.

[montrii]

2. As I understand it, the case at the North Gate was completely different. "jamming" is what I did when I was there in February. Got up, played a couple of songs, went back, nursed my beer, and listened. Two days later I went back to Bangkok. This is what "jamming" is. Thais don't get paid for it when they sit in, and neither do Farangs. Musicians know that when they come to Chiengmai they can sit in at North Gate, so it's on their itinerary. None of these people come all the time, but different people come in on different days or weeks, usually just for a tune or two. Nobody ever gets paid for jamming. Apparently some farangs who were jamming there one night, doing pretty much what I did, got thrown in the pokey for it. THIS is the issue: was THIS illegal?

Some say yes, some say no. I say that as far as I can see, it's "no." Since it's not a service that is paid for, no matter whether a Thai does it or someone of any other nationality does it, I do not see how it falls under the work permit law.

North Gate, as many jazz clubs worldwide, has a kind of perpetual open mike. They pay all-Thai bands to play there (some quite good) and they get some respectable foreign tourist/musicians through, and lots of folks get up there and play. The audience enjoys it, the Thai musicians usually enjoy it, and of course the farang musicians have fun. Nobody loses work, because the band would not be hiring extra players if no one sat in.

I agree with your overall sentiments, montrii, but I'm afraid the completely innocent picture you paint of north gate simply isn't accurate. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of north gate & I think they are an important part of the overall cultural scene in Chiang Mai (not just the music scene). Yes it's a welcoming place for musicians of many types and abilities. Yes, most jammers are just casual visitors. But to describe north gate as a perpetual open mike where jammers never get paid just isn't right. And I say this having been around the place on & off since it opened, and having jammed there many times myself.

Thanks, cmdas, I am sure I don't know everything, I've only heard about it forever and played there a couple of times. Nobody's completely innocent. You know stuff I don't about payoffs, etc. etc. . . . but the place does have a good reputation among the musicians I know, and your two yeses above are enough for me to side with the club. But if you've been around you probably have seen that there's noplace at all that doesn't break rules one way or another, and some are left alone by the police and some are not, and many times it has nothing to do with legality. I'm just saying that if the jammers were the kind of jammers I'm talking about (so far nobody's said they weren't, and you yourself say most are casual visitors), then those weren't legitimate busts. If you know different, let us know! No one else has come forward with real details about this, only that it happened and there were some witnesses.

[sarahsbloke]

Who is laughing? I'm pointing out how ridiculously far reaching the law is. It covers, for instance, if someone is here on vacation, answers an email and instructs his/her secretary to "Yes, deposit that check into the operations account." That is 'work', and therefore in violation. It's insane.

But nobody was busted for doing that. As far as I can see the law has been implemented in an entirely appropriate way.

The people who were arrested were playing in bars, working for money under the table, and your sidetracking their crime is just silly.

Are you by any chance a musician, or running a 'jamming bar'?

Because it seems from your comments, and your personal attacks, that you have a vested interest in this subject.

Edited May 19, 2011 by sarahsbloke

[venturalaw]

Who is laughing? I'm pointing out how ridiculously far reaching the law is. It covers, for instance, if someone is here on vacation, answers an email and instructs his/her secretary to "Yes, deposit that check into the operations account." That is 'work', and therefore in violation. It's insane.

But nobody was busted for doing that. As far as I can see the law has been implemented in an entirely appropriate way.

The people who were arrested were working for money under the table, and your sidetracking their crime is just silly.

Sidetracking? What are you talking about? The topic is about musicians arrested, which naturally leads to the basis of the arrests which is the law in Thailand. What I stated was relevant. Or were you attempting to be challenging solely for the purpose of starting an argument that you could never win?

[orang37]

... snip ...Are you by any chance a musician, or running a 'jamming bar'? Because it seems from your comments, and your personal attacks, that you have a vested interest in this subject.

Joseph Heller, "Catch-22:"

Doc Daneeka: "What makes you so sure Major Major is a Communist?"

Captain Black: "You never heard him denying it until we began accusing him, did you? And you don't see him signing any of our loyalty oaths."

Doc Daneeka: "You aren't letting him sign away."

Captain Black: "Of course not,” Captain Black explained. “That would defeat the whole purpose of our crusade."'

~o:37;