What Does Thai Culture Permit / Accept...?

[ChrisP]

Here's a serious question I want to pose... I'll try and put it nicely so Admin doesn't close it (please George)..!.

I've seen this topic explained in many books on Thai Culture and Relationships... (oh, and this same topic relates to Thai women too.)

To use ProThaiExpat's words from another post (edited a bit):

Thai culture permits a straight man to earn his living in a GG Bar for men with no shame as to what role he plays in bed.

What do you think...?

Thai culture is an amazing thing sometimes.. but - from what I've read, at least - Thai's can separate - or maybe compartmentalize is a better term - (mentally) the sexual and sociolgical parts of their lives successfully.

ChrisP

Mod

[The_Moog]

We had a student at B____L___Z who worked in a bar. Lessons paid for by his English male friend.

In the lessons he discussed his wife and family. So the teacher made the next obvious point....

and the Thai said, 'No, you don't understand, I am a man"

Ok, low marks for his use of the noun. (He'd still be a man anyway). But one could understand what he was getting at. It was his job.

Having said that I don't think he was all that happy in his chosen career, but then who is.

(As a teacher I certainly wasn't) .

[ChrisP]

Yep.. that's another interesting cultural difference..

In many Thai's eyes, if you are gay, you are automatically considered "the woman/female"...even if you're built like a Lumberjack!

ChrisP

[ProThaiExpat]

ChrisP is up to his old "tricks" again, making me think!

My opinion formed when I came to Thailand regarding Thai male family heads engaged in the sex trade and being "accepted" by Thai culture may be way off.

Since posting this impression and ChrisP starting this thread, I questioned my Thai about the issue and was told that Thai society would not look favorably on such activity and he felt that the Thai man so engaged, would probably lie to his wife, kids and family as to how he made his money.

My western mindset led me to believe that the wife of a straight male gay sex worker would certainly know what her husband did for a living. Not so, says my Thai. I believe him, as I have also learned that adherence to the "truth" in Thailand is a great deal more liberally construed than in the west.

When I posed the question to my Thai, who is from Isan and from where it seems so many prostitutes come from, he said Isan people, both men and women, who go to Bkk to earn a living in a disreputable profession, merely lie about what they do for a living or for whom they work. Sounds very Thai to me.

While a certain amount of "compartmentalization" mght need to occur from a western mindset point of view, if one is raised not to distinguish mentally between sex "roles, perhaps compartmentalization is not required. Once one lies comfortably about what one does for a living, the shame is hidden from all too view and so are we dealing with degrees of shame, or does the lie remove the shame, as shame is externally driven by society?

In my experience, "role playng" is far more prevalent among newly out gays than those who have thrity or more years being gay under their belt. I am not saying preferences change, just the projection of ones preferences as an identity feature softens.

[LivinLOS]

My GF came round with 3 friends the other day one lady whome I knew and a husband and wife who I didnt..

At the very first initial meeting and introduction my GF explained this was XXX and his wife XXX.. He works down Soi Paradise..

Not the most subtle of opening lines and yet no one in the group seemed to bat an eyelid of think anything out of the ordinary.. Seemed like a nice enough fella but one that as a straight male I had to think was pretty tough job if he was 'straight' and only working to support his wife..

I must say nothing much shocks me but that was a surprise.

[PeaceBlondie]

I've known a certain employee of gay bars now for 2.5 years. He's always acted gay. But the other day, he mentioned that he has two daughters, and one is turning 13. It never occurred to me to ask if he still has a wife.

If he (like me) had a couple of kids before he came out as gay, I can understand that. But if he's been prostituting himself to men all the time he's been satisfying his wife...that's a bit much to understand.

I think, however, that we may be confusing the Thai people's ability to tolerate the general practice of prostitution, and having a close family member engage in it. Likewise, to tolerate a close family member being gay, but not a prostitute. Finally, we may not understand when they're merely tolerating behavior, and when they honestly approve of it. Thais seem to turn two blind eyes to Somchai spending time in the bedroom of his daughter or niece, but they don't approve of it.

// text edited a little by CP - Mod

[ChrisP]

Quote from book "Thailand Fever" - Pirazzi/Vasant. Pub: Paiboon. Pg 126

[edited for male/female context somewhat..]

Bar "workers" do suffer a huge stigma in Thai eyes, but not for the reason you might expect. Westerners often look down on bar workers and prostitutes for religious or social reasons.... But Thais look down on bar workers because they shamefully flout the Thai value of modesty..... For the most part the bar worker does what they do because they are financially desperate, and they feel this is their best option. But the Thai values of naam-jai [generosity - lit: "flow of the heart"], and gat-dtan-yuu [gratitude towards those who have made important contributions to your life] are SO strong - stronger than the need to choose their own bed-partners (demanded in Western culture), or even their need to be modest (demanded in Thai culture), that they are willing to sell their bodies in order to fulfill their debt of gratitude to their parents and family. Their relatives probably know exactly what they are up to. They will not speak of it in public. In private they believe that the person is acting honorably and making a great sacrifice for them.

ChrisP

[mijan24]

Quote from book "Thailand Fever" - Pirazzi/Vasant. Pub: Paiboon.  Pg 126

[edited for male/female context somewhat..]

Bar "workers" do suffer a huge stigma in Thai eyes, but not for the reason you might expect.  Westerners often look down on bar workers and prostitutes for religious or social reasons....  But Thais look down on bar workers because they shamefully flout the Thai value of modesty.....  For the most part the bar worker does what they do because they are financially desperate, and they feel this is their best option.  But the Thai values of naam-jai [generosity - lit: "flow of the heart"], and gat-dtan-yuu [gratitude towards those who have made important contributions to your life] are SO strong - stronger than the need to choose their own bed-partners (demanded in Western culture), or even their need to be modest (demanded in Thai culture), that they are willing to sell their bodies in order to fulfill their debt of gratitude to their parents and family. Their relatives probably know exactly what they are up to. They will not speak of it in public. In private they believe that the person is acting honorably and making a great sacrifice for them.

ChrisP

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Likewise, to tolerate a close family member being gay, but not a prostitute. Finally, we may not understand when they're merely tolerating behavior, and when they honestly approve of it. Thais seem to turn two blind eyes to Somchai spending time in the bedroom of his daughter or niece, but they don't approve of it.

I don't know if it is correct to say Thai Culture permits/accepts it may be more in line to put it down to "Today's Society permitting/accepting" more now than in years gone by!

[quikia]

I once heard from other boys in a bar in Pattaya that one of them was asked by the wife to work there since he was handsome! Reminds me of a case in farangland where the wife takes bookings for her husband to bed other women since he was 'quite capable' several times a day.

[The_Moog]

I once heard from other boys in a bar in Pattaya that one of them was asked by the wife to work there since he was handsome!

I think mine would too if I was handsome, but i'm as ornery as a mule's butt.

Once, when Mrs Moog asked to go to a Gay bar in Suriwong, one of the bar boys (#52) secretly passed her his number during the boggery show....in the sense of 'when you're rid of the farang freak, call me'.

Another time when i've strolled down that soi with the Mrs and another female friend, chicos approach and say at the tops of their voices....'I'll fack you in 5 minutes, girl.'

So, you know, I guess some like fish on fridays.

[peter991]

I think Thai people have a very flexible approach to sex - something we Westerners find difficult to comprehend. An example was when I was in Pattaya recently. Just outside a straight beer bar on Beach Road, I arranged to purchase a dozen DVDs. While I was waiting, I bought a Coke and chatted with the owner of the bar.

After the usual chat about where I was from (Australia) and how long was I staying in Pattaya (a week) came the 'do you like the girls?' question.

I told her I was gay and had a Thai boy-friend. The owner told me she had a 20 year old son and she was going to get him a job in a gay bar. When I asked her if he was gay - she laughed and said she didn't think so, but he was a good looking boy and would get lots of customers.

I never did get to meet her son but at the end of my visit, I dropped back in to the bar and he owner told me that her son had got the job at a gay bar and was happy there - and no, he wasn't gay - just handsome.

Peter

[Guest endure]

In Thailand sex is a physical activity that you do - it doesn't define who you are.

[ChrisP]

I love the story by peter991... and endure has hit the nail on the head..

I honestly don't accept the other posts about Thai's being "shocked" by their own sex industry... whatever the Thai's may want to tell you (to save face?)

Thai 'massage parlours" are a flourishing business.. specifically aimed at and attended by a HUGE percentage of the Thai population. There's a big new one going up by me on Ratchada/Huai Kwang.

The West just cannot accept the Thai attitude to sex...

ChrisP

[AlexLah]

Hi All,

In my short experience living in Thailand I have the feeling that Thais tolerate people that are 'different" but not really accept them.

For example my company is looking for new sales people so I told them why not look for people that work in bar, at least they speak better english then you.

No way they would accept them, Manager said.

KR,

Alex

[ChrisP]

^ So much for Thai's wanting to learn and use better English - and for English being the International language of business...

(I think some Thai's tolerate having to learn English..)

ChrisP

[quikia]

There is a story in the local newspaper today of a casanova who has blackmailed executive women after meeting them through the internet and has taken compromising photos. He was arrested on 16th of September. After that date, his wife continued his ways of blackmailing and was arrested yesterday ( 4.10.2005 ) after an executive woman who has paid US$25,000.00, made the second report.

[kat]

Here's a serious question I want to pose...  I'll try and put it nicely so Admin doesn't close it (please George)..!.

I've seen this topic explained in many books on Thai Culture and Relationships... (oh, and this same topic relates to Thai women too.)

To use ProThaiExpat's words from another post (edited a bit):

Thai culture permits a straight man to earn his living in a GG Bar for men with no shame as to what role he plays in bed.

What do you think...?

Thai culture is an amazing thing sometimes.. but - from what I've read, at least - Thai's can separate - or maybe compartmentalize is a better term - (mentally) the sexual and sociolgical parts of their lives successfully.

ChrisP

Mod

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think it has something to do with the value of detachment, or as we like to say, compartmentalization.

[dukkha]

One of the most erudite and informative pieces I have read is written by Professor Peter Jackson of Syndney ....

I read his book "Dear Uncle Goh" while here on my first trip.

Some of his comments worth considering relating to much of what has been said on this thread:

1)....THE MAINTENANCE OF A FACADE OF PEACE AND ORDERLINESS EVEN IN A SITUATION OF CONFLICT IS VALUED HIGHLY N THAILAND.

2)...THE ETHIC OF NON -INTERFERENCE MEANS THAT OPEN HOMOSEXUAL MEN AND WIMMIN , WHILE NOT NECESSARILY ACCEPTED IN THAILAND, DO NOT TEND TO MEET CONSIDERABLE , ACTIVE OPPOSITION, ALTHOUGH SUBLTLE OPPOSITION MAY BE RESENT/PERSISTENT...

3)...IN THAILAND, ONCE A BOY IS 15 OR SO, MAN -BOY RELATIONSHIPS SEEM TO RECEIVE NO SPECIAL CRITICISMS...MALE TO MALE SEX IS NOT SEEN AS BEING CORRUPTING OR DANGEROUS...

4) ...THAI MEN SEEM TO HAVE LESS PSYCHOLOGICAL RESISTANCE IN ENGAGING IN MALE TO MALE SEX THAN DO MEN FROM WESTERN SOCIETIES......

5)...MALE HOMOEROTICISIM IS MORE OFTEN EXRESSED IN THAILAND THAN IN WESTERN SOCIETIES...

6)...PSYCHOLOGICAL BARRIERS ARE WEAKER AMONG THAI MEN...RELATIVE ABSENCE OF HOMOPHOBIA IN THAILAND...HOMOSEXUALITY IS RARELY CONSIDERED REPUGNANT...

7)...THE IDEA THAT HOMOSEXUAL DESIRE IS JUST ANOTHER VARIETY OF SEXUAL ( AROM ) MOOD IS WIDESPREAD IN THAI SOCIETY...

8)...EMPHASIS IS ON HOMOSEXUALITY AS AN ACTIVITY...

9)...IN RECENT THAI HISTORY MALE HOMOSEXUALITY HAS NEITHER BEEN CONSIDERED IMMORAL BY THE DOMINANT RELIGION NOR ILLEGAL BY THE BODY POLITIC..

I wish to acknowledge the wonderful work of Professore Jackson in these quotes and advise anyone who wants to understand thai culture and its relationship to homosexuality to read any of his works. He has also written an interesting piece of fiction which I imagine is biographically based entitled..."The Intrinsic Meaning Of Skin'...a must read from many points of view.

On a more personal note, after 5 years living in the Kingdom as a single, gay man I have finally allowed myself to learn to be loved and it is these few words that I dedicate to my partner, Samran Nawan, who has taught me more about thai culture than any books I have read.

Trust these few points are of interest to some of you.

[astral]

One of the most erudite and informative pieces I have read is written by Professor Peter Jackson of Syndney ....

I read his book "Dear Uncle Goh" while here on my first trip.

Some of his comments worth considering relating to much of what has been said on this thread:

1)....THE MAINTENANCE OF A FACADE OF PEACE AND ORDERLINESS EVEN IN A SITUATION OF CONFLICT IS VALUED HIGHLY N THAILAND.

2)...THE ETHIC OF NON -INTERFERENCE MEANS THAT OPEN HOMOSEXUAL MEN AND WIMMIN , WHILE NOT NECESSARILY ACCEPTED IN THAILAND, DO NOT TEND TO MEET CONSIDERABLE , ACTIVE OPPOSITION, ALTHOUGH SUBLTLE OPPOSITION MAY BE RESENT/PERSISTENT...

3)...IN THAILAND, ONCE A BOY IS 15 OR SO, MAN -BOY RELATIONSHIPS SEEM TO RECEIVE NO SPECIAL CRITICISMS...MALE TO MALE SEX IS NOT SEEN AS BEING CORRUPTING OR DANGEROUS...

4) ...THAI MEN SEEM TO HAVE LESS PSYCHOLOGICAL RESISTANCE IN ENGAGING IN MALE TO MALE SEX THAN DO MEN FROM WESTERN SOCIETIES......

5)...MALE HOMOEROTICISIM IS MORE OFTEN EXRESSED IN THAILAND THAN IN WESTERN SOCIETIES...

6)...PSYCHOLOGICAL BARRIERS ARE WEAKER AMONG THAI MEN...RELATIVE ABSENCE OF HOMOPHOBIA IN THAILAND...HOMOSEXUALITY IS RARELY CONSIDERED REPUGNANT...

7)...THE IDEA THAT HOMOSEXUAL DESIRE IS JUST ANOTHER VARIETY OF SEXUAL ( AROM ) MOOD IS WIDESPREAD IN THAI SOCIETY...

8)...EMPHASIS IS ON HOMOSEXUALITY AS AN ACTIVITY...

9)...IN RECENT THAI HISTORY MALE HOMOSEXUALITY HAS NEITHER BEEN CONSIDERED IMMORAL BY THE DOMINANT RELIGION NOR ILLEGAL BY THE BODY POLITIC..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This ethic of non-interference has always been one of the attractions of Thailand.

I always remember a group of middle teenagers in a mall in central Thailand.

They were a mixed group of boys and girls, but one boy was very effeminate.

Yet he was part of the group, not excluded as he would be in western society.

I wish the western do-gooders would leave Thailand to its own delightful culture.