Disgusted At Wats In Cm

[neverdie]

Every night I pick up these poor creatures I find in bars on Loy Kroh Road. I release them later but find them back in the same bar the following night. What should I do?

Check ur pecker for spots.

[uptheos]

What you need to do is return to whatever country you came from and work to ameliorate animal cruelity there. As a foreigner, whatever you say or do here will be counterproductive. Believe me, I've been here a long time.

Right.......we believe you.

Ohh great, just what this forum needs, another one of those long term, trust what I say types

Probably been reading the posts on this forum since it started up, but never bothered to sign up until now.

[HaleySabai]

As Ghandi said-

The question of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.

What does that say about Thailand!!

I believe Gandhi actually said "the way it's OLD PEOPLE are treated" - this society and its people stand on no moral or ethical ground, its 'anything goes' within their established parameters of social constraint.

[CMSteve]

RIght! I think too many of us are projecting our western views upon the Wats. From what I've seen, the outer areas of the wat's grounds are more of a community place. Starting/ending processions for weddings/funerals, selling food/nicknacks/medal/pins. Thais normally use the grounds for meetings/sports, drive their motorbikes through... Maybe the inner part of the total wat can be seen as a place of worship/enlightenment. Then again, if you consider the Buddhist beliefs, there would be no specif importance placed on any place, especially not one of enlightenment.

Sellers tend to be on the periphery though, like the entrance, parking lot, etc. It's a free country, live and let live.

[realthaideal]

Did you use fossil fuels to get to the temple ? Did you eat any meat products today ?

These are unfair comparisons. Fossils are long-dead - the fuel is there to be used. I eat meat, but don't torture it first (in a Spanish bullfight, I'd be rootin' for the bull, to skewer the pretentious prancer )

Wider thinking, please. When we get forthright and holier-than-thou with the locals, do we really ever look at ourselves at all ?! Think what was the impact for the getting of the gas you used to truck on over to the temple when you could've biked or walked ? I'm not talking about fossils in the ground, man, I'm talking about environmental impact in drilling zones, and in habitats where the fuels are used to an excess (polluting rivers and ground) or even valley-basins (air)like here in CM. So..... you're gonna judge the old lady with the sparrows and the eels and not look at yourself and what your gas-guzzling does to animals elsewhere ? And not correct yourself first ? Out of sight, out of mind as they always say.

Same goes for being a meat eater - What kind of life does a factory-raised animal have ? Have you seen ? Do you know where your meat comes from ? Can/ could you deal with it ? I know, and can, and do. I also don't judge the Thais and what they're doing. Meat production is another excellent example of out of sight, out of mind. If it suffers its whole life and you eat it, you're supporting misery and rearing only for the purpose of slaughter. That's rough.

So.... that lady bikes there or walks every day and makes her petty living while using animals as her instrument of livelihood. You eat meat and guzzle fossil fuels flying all over the world and driving all over town and eating imported foods. Who is affecting life/ other animals and environment more ? Can you say ? Tough call. Who could alter their ways more easily (esp given the power of knowledge) ?

We must be careful casting stones. I cast as little as possible.

But do I feel for the tiny creatures ? Yes. But I don't have the imperialist balls to explain to her why I'm right and what she's doing is wrong. Had I a better idea for an avocation for her, and then the means to help her set up, then I think it'd be ok. Otherwise I'm just being uppity.

Anyway,..... don't get me wrong, I do eat meat n ride a bike around. I just accept my global impact and don't judge other. I also do do what I can to minimize my impact. I start the changes with me.

[Gladiator]

Did you use fossil fuels to get to the temple ? Did you eat any meat products today ?

These are unfair comparisons. Fossils are long-dead - the fuel is there to be used. I eat meat, but don't torture it first (in a Spanish bullfight, I'd be rootin' for the bull, to skewer the pretentious prancer )

Wider thinking, please. When we get forthright and holier-than-thou with the locals, do we really ever look at ourselves at all ?! Think what was the impact for the getting of the gas you used to truck on over to the temple when you could've biked or walked ? I'm not talking about fossils in the ground, man, I'm talking about environmental impact in drilling zones, and in habitats where the fuels are used to an excess (polluting rivers and ground) or even valley-basins (air)like here in CM. So..... you're gonna judge the old lady with the sparrows and the eels and not look at yourself and what your gas-guzzling does to animals elsewhere ? And not correct yourself first ? Out of sight, out of mind as they always say.

Same goes for being a meat eater - What kind of life does a factory-raised animal have ? Have you seen ? Do you know where your meat comes from ? Can/ could you deal with it ? I know, and can, and do. I also don't judge the Thais and what they're doing. Meat production is another excellent example of out of sight, out of mind. If it suffers its whole life and you eat it, you're supporting misery and rearing only for the purpose of slaughter. That's rough.

So.... that lady bikes there or walks every day and makes her petty living while using animals as her instrument of livelihood. You eat meat and guzzle fossil fuels flying all over the world and driving all over town and eating imported foods. Who is affecting life/ other animals and environment more ? Can you say ? Tough call. Who could alter their ways more easily (esp given the power of knowledge) ?

We must be careful casting stones. I cast as little as possible.

But do I feel for the tiny creatures ? Yes. But I don't have the imperialist balls to explain to her why I'm right and what she's doing is wrong. Had I a better idea for an avocation for her, and then the means to help her set up, then I think it'd be ok. Otherwise I'm just being uppity.

Anyway,..... don't get me wrong, I do eat meat n ride a bike around. I just accept my global impact and don't judge other. I also do do what I can to minimize my impact. I start the changes with me.

Yes.

Fair comment !

[jdinasia]

Hmmm the temples and what goes on in them just doesn't upset me at all.

[NancyL]

Some of the wats have English-language "monk chat" times where westerners can talk to an English-speaking monk about the Buddhist religion. Maybe this would be a good opportunity to ask the English-speaking monk about this terrible practice.

There's no point in talking to the lady selling the birds and fish.

Edited April 24, 2011 by NancyL

[canuckamuck]

Wider thinking, please. When we get forthright and holier-than-thou with the locals, do we really ever look at ourselves at all ?! Think what was the impact for the getting of the gas you used to truck on over to the temple when you could've biked or walked ? I'm not talking about fossils in the ground, man, I'm talking about environmental impact in drilling zones, and in habitats where the fuels are used to an excess (polluting rivers and ground) or even valley-basins (air)like here in CM. So..... you're gonna judge the old lady with the sparrows and the eels and not look at yourself and what your gas-guzzling does to animals elsewhere ? And not correct yourself first ? Out of sight, out of mind as they always say.

Same goes for being a meat eater - What kind of life does a factory-raised animal have ? Have you seen ? Do you know where your meat comes from ? Can/ could you deal with it ? I know, and can, and do. I also don't judge the Thais and what they're doing. Meat production is another excellent example of out of sight, out of mind. If it suffers its whole life and you eat it, you're supporting misery and rearing only for the purpose of slaughter. That's rough.

So.... that lady bikes there or walks every day and makes her petty living while using animals as her instrument of livelihood. You eat meat and guzzle fossil fuels flying all over the world and driving all over town and eating imported foods. Who is affecting life/ other animals and environment more ? Can you say ? Tough call. Who could alter their ways more easily (esp given the power of knowledge) ?

We must be careful casting stones. I cast as little as possible.

But do I feel for the tiny creatures ? Yes. But I don't have the imperialist balls to explain to her why I'm right and what she's doing is wrong. Had I a better idea for an avocation for her, and then the means to help her set up, then I think it'd be ok. Otherwise I'm just being uppity.

Anyway,..... don't get me wrong, I do eat meat n ride a bike around. I just accept my global impact and don't judge other. I also do do what I can to minimize my impact. I start the changes with me.

Don't get me wrong, I am not judging the lady selling the birds.It is the morons that think they are doing some sort of good deed by paying to set the birds free. All they are doing is paying her to lock up a bunch more and start all over again tomorrow.

Edited April 24, 2011 by canuckamuck

[brebs]

Wider thinking, please.

Stay on-topic, please. This is a thread about the seemingly-strange goings-on inside temple grounds, not a critique of everything bad *I've* done/supported/encouraged since the day I was born - that should be a different thread

I'm wondering whether this is a get-money-from-the-holidaymaker thing, or do Thais do it too?

Edited April 24, 2011 by brebs

[realthaideal]

It's all quite germane, my friend. If I tried to mention where I grabbed a burger before visiting the temple, that might be a stretch. But the ethics/gumption/quagmire of thoughts feeling n emotions involved in being disgusted by and wanting to stop this lady is the very topic itself. If there was a number to call so the ethics or animal protective services could come along, someone surely would have posted it. What else is there to say what's been stated other than, say, examining the facets of it ?

Your last words do point to a good and ironic point, however, and I'd like to expand on it. Yes, in fact it's mainly the Thais who do this as they believe it's good luck/ making merit. It is a ritual gesture of freeing an animal. Of course adopting a stray or caring for soi dogs would be an actual real act of loving kindness towards animals. Instead, they prefer the easy gesture, which in fact enslaves more animals so they can pretend to do what they wish they were really doing. And this is Thailand in a nutshell, form and outward appearance over actual substance. In fact, flying in the face of actual logic and doing good for the stated purpose (being kind to animals.

A story

One of my favorite temples i Wat U-mong. You go there, and sometimes you can buy small fish or eels for release into 'freedom' to feel/ do good. I've seen other people come in with their own that they've bought from pet stores too, in order to set them free. It doesn't take much of a fisherman or Discovery Channel watcher to figure out what happens when you empty a bag of eels and turtles the size of silver dollars into a pond filled with meter-long catfish. It's like a buffet coming to you. Instead of life in the pond, the big fish gets a meal and the small critter passes on to the next life. But that's only if you think about it, and don't just pretend that you set something free. Then it's all smiles and ha-ha-ha's. Cruelty or feeding the fish ? You be the judge.

Edited April 24, 2011 by realthaideal

[brebs]

emotions

Please don't drag me down to, or consider me equal to, your level of "emotion". I posted here for *understanding* and intelligent comment.

Where does one go to see *real*, as opposed to pretend, Buddhism practised?

[realthaideal]

Waiter, we've got a live one ! (read: fresh, new)

Look, if you feel dragged down and fail to see intelligence in my comments... I can't help you.

Real Buddhism, like real Thailand, is a dream. It's there and it's not. Every Thai is a real Thai. Every Buddhist is a real Buddhist. Who should be the chosen representative ?

Nancy L had a good pt about going to a monk chat and asking there. Might be fun.

[brebs]

Who should be the chosen representative ?

Give someone else other than yourself, hopefully with a smaller mouth and less of a ridiculously I'm-a-real-Buddhist-and-you're-not-so-your-opionion-means-nothing attitude, a chance please

This is a forum for farangs, right?

I don't quite believe, as of yet, that the ridiculous behaviour that we see within temple grounds in Chiang Mai, is the pinnacle of Buddhist temples, and I would love someone to show in this thread, something better - to compare and contrast versus a *proper* Buddhist temple. I assume and hope such a thing exists, otherwise it's all just a very depressing country-wide scam/circus/farce

[BossHogg]

Who should be the chosen representative ?

Give someone else other than yourself, hopefully with a smaller mouth and less of a ridiculously I'm-a-real-Buddhist-and-you're-not-so-your-opionion-means-nothing attitude, a chance please

This is a forum for farangs, right?

I don't quite believe, as of yet, that the ridiculous behaviour that we see within temple grounds in Chiang Mai, is the pinnacle of Buddhist temples, and I would love someone to show in this thread, something better - to compare and contrast versus a *proper* Buddhist temple. I assume and hope such a thing exists, otherwise it's all just a very depressing country-wide scam/circus/farce

But surely then, the very existence of a temple would go against " real Buddhism" ? Along with Buddha images.

[jdinasia]

Who should be the chosen representative ?

Give someone else other than yourself, hopefully with a smaller mouth and less of a ridiculously I'm-a-real-Buddhist-and-you're-not-so-your-opionion-means-nothing attitude, a chance please

This is a forum for farangs, right?

I don't quite believe, as of yet, that the ridiculous behaviour that we see within temple grounds in Chiang Mai, is the pinnacle of Buddhist temples, and I would love someone to show in this thread, something better - to compare and contrast versus a *proper* Buddhist temple. I assume and hope such a thing exists, otherwise it's all just a very depressing country-wide scam/circus/farce

Sorry, but realthaideal is correct. What you consider "proper" isn't really the issue. Buddhism as practiced in Thailand comes in many forms and the attitude of "I think it is wrong, therefore it is wrong" just doesn't work.

My path to enlightenment will certainly be different than someone else's but what I do know about it is that it is up to the individual to find his or her own way. I also know, for myself, that for me to tell someone else the "right" way would be "wrong" on my part

[orang37]

Every night I pick up these poor creatures I find in bars on Loy Kroh Road. I release them later but find them back in the same bar the following night. What should I do?

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun Ian,

Just continue to give them money, but stop screwing them ?

best, ~o:37;

[realthaideal]

After more years here than my TV id shows, I have many ideas and many experiences fused together. I have had to let alot of my western thinking go. Or let it adapt, or just let it be, acknowledged, but not acted upon. Many here for years have reached a similar point in how to deal with things. In fact the Thai culture is inevitably a mirror back on ourselves and our own ways of doing/ being life. I have made no claims about what my religion is. I only offer lines of thought and questioning as pertains to living here and the given situation. Make of it what you will.

There is a saying or something such, that when you point a finger at someone, there are three pointing back at you.

[OldGringo]

What you need to do is return to whatever country you came from and work to ameliorate animal cruelity there. As a foreigner, whatever you say or do here will be counterproductive. Believe me, I've been here a long time.

Right.......we believe you.

Ohh great, just what this forum needs, another one of those long term, trust what I say types

If you don't listen to farangs who have been here for a while, then you will get lessons from Thais that you won't forget anytime soon.

[brebs]

when you point a finger at someone, there are three pointing back at you.

Come on, admit it, what you really want to say is:

Once you've achieved enlightenment, young Grasshopper, you'll understand.

The question was *not*, "how does one deal with this?" So, enough with the vague sermons, please.

[realthaideal]

The OP actually has am issue 'he' (I assume a guy) raises. And then he asks if there is someone to speak to about this issue. One person has suggested Monk Chat. That's a great idea. Wat Suan Dok on Suthep road and just up the street from the hospital of the same name/ Maharat Hospital if you prefer. Another temple that has it is one of my favorites, and it's called Wat U-Mong and is also up Th. Suthep, across the canal, and left on Wat U-Mong Soi 1. Not sure of the times, but if you search it within the CM subforum I'm sure you'll find it.

So, K. Brebs, thank you for helping me sort out my own thoughts on this issue so well. And CZ should thank you for taking up his case so passionately too. What I see is that there is a western impulse.... 'What is the reason, why why why ?' But in fact there is often not one answer. The cause of cancer is a great example of this. We constantly search and search and now point to nearly everything as a cause for cancer. What is the true Buddhism ? Probably living by the precepts of Lord Buddha and studying his teachings. But since his enlightenment it has fractured many times and has evolved rituals and incorporated teachings and beliefs from the cultures it has blended with. In Thailand it's Therevada Buddhism, mostly elsewhere it's alot of Mahayana school. Which of those is the true one ?

Anyway, the key word above about the religion's changes would be, 'BLENDED.'

My 'sermons' are my answers. Perhaps every question does not need an answer. Sometimes a question can be an answer. In fact often it is all you get.

As someone else pointed out, it might not hurt to try listening to Farang who've been here awhile. We've been exactly where you're at. Trust me. You are a mirror on myself and all of us. In that, there is more than a bit of humor. Like big time !

Do I love it here ? Sort of. Most days. Do I ever lose my cool or get really frustrated with the locals or their policies ? You bet. But best is to be able to step back out of ourselves if we can. At least that's what works for me. And most of the people I know. Bending with the winds, you are less likely to snap.

There you go: You now have a two-temples-to-go-visit answer, and a sermon answer.

Edited April 25, 2011 by realthaideal

[brebs]

Wat U-Mong

Whoever named that place, had his head screwed on right!

point to nearly everything as a cause for cancer

AIUI, cancer is caused by cells "going rogue", which is caused by the fact that cells unfortunately manifest undesirable mutations when reproducing - the reproduction process isn't perfect, and we don't have a drug to make it perfect. We'll have a "cure" for cancer, when we have nano-robots patrolling the bloodstream. Which has nowt to do with temples.

I don't personally care whether bird & fish ransoming within temple grounds is "Buddhist" - I'd rather believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster than sea dragons. I was just hoping for a reasonably straight answer, because religious foibles amuse me.

I'll let ya get back to the navel-gazing

[weary]

the reproduction process isn't perfect

Tried Viagra?

[OldGringo]

The OP actually has am issue 'he' (I assume a guy) raises. And then he asks if there is someone to speak to about this issue. One person has suggested Monk Chat. That's a great idea. Wat Suan Dok on Suthep road and just up the street from the hospital of the same name/ Maharat Hospital if you prefer. Another temple that has it is one of my favorites, and it's called Wat U-Mong and is also up Th. Suthep, across the canal, and left on Wat U-Mong Soi 1. Not sure of the times, but if you search it within the CM subforum I'm sure you'll find it.

So, K. Brebs, thank you for helping me sort out my own thoughts on this issue so well. And CZ should thank you for taking up his case so passionately too. What I see is that there is a western impulse.... 'What is the reason, why why why ?' But in fact there is often not one answer. The cause of cancer is a great example of this. We constantly search and search and now point to nearly everything as a cause for cancer. What is the true Buddhism ? Probably living by the precepts of Lord Buddha and studying his teachings. But since his enlightenment it has fractured many times and has evolved rituals and incorporated teachings and beliefs from the cultures it has blended with. In Thailand it's Therevada Buddhism, mostly elsewhere it's alot of Mahayana school. Which of those is the true one ?

Anyway, the key word above about the religion's changes would be, 'BLENDED.'

My 'sermons' are my answers. Perhaps every question does not need an answer. Sometimes a question can be an answer. In fact often it is all you get.

As someone else pointed out, it might not hurt to try listening to Farang who've been here awhile. We've been exactly where you're at. Trust me. You are a mirror on myself and all of us. In that, there is more than a bit of humor. Like big time !

Do I love it here ? Sort of. Most days. Do I ever lose my cool or get really frustrated with the locals or their policies ? You bet. But best is to be able to step back out of ourselves if we can. At least that's what works for me. And most of the people I know. Bending with the winds, you are less likely to snap.

There you go: You now have a two-temples-to-go-visit answer, and a sermon answer.

Thanks for quoting my Sage Advice about listening to farang who have been here awhile. You sound like someone who has learned something from your time here. Most of the others remind me of the reasons I prefer to live among Thais.

[uptheos]

Thanks for quoting my Sage Advice about listening to farang who have been here awhile.

I think we should listen to people that have been here for a long time, but how would anyone know how long you've been here?

[OldGringo]

Thanks for quoting my Sage Advice about listening to farang who have been here awhile.

I think we should listen to people that have been here for a long time, but how would anyone know how long you've been here?

Get a shave first. Then I'll tell you.

[uptheos]

Thanks for quoting my Sage Advice about listening to farang who have been here awhile.

I think we should listen to people that have been here for a long time, but how would anyone know how long you've been here?

Get a shave first. Then I'll tell you.

Don't shave or shower....so pray tell.

[OldGringo]

Thanks for quoting my Sage Advice about listening to farang who have been here awhile.

I think we should listen to people that have been here for a long time, but how would anyone know how long you've been here?

Get a shave first. Then I'll tell you.

Don't shave or shower....so pray tell.

Then don't start now...it's too late! But you seem like an OK guy anyway, so I'll tell . 1978. Before that, overland across Asia on the Hippie Trail with a friend riding a BMW 650. Before that, Europe. Before that, the West Indies. This is probably more than you wanted to know but you were persistent. Choke dee.

[uptheos]

Then don't start now...it's too late! But you seem like an OK guy anyway, so I'll tell . 1978. Before that, overland across Asia on the Hippie Trail with a friend riding a BMW 650. Before that, Europe. Before that, the West Indies. This is probably more than you wanted to know but you were persistent. Choke dee.

Cheers

[jdinasia]

Why do these 2 quotes from the same poster seem to say completely opposite things?

Where does one go to see *real*, as opposed to pretend, Buddhism practised?

and

I don't personally care whether bird & fish ransoming within temple grounds is "Buddhist" - I'd rather believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster than sea dragons. I was just hoping for a reasonably straight answer, because religious foibles amuse me.

I think the answer is pretty obvious