Chiang Mai, Loi Kroh Road

[IanForbes]

Every city in the world should have a Loi Kroh Road. It would solve a lot of problems.

Of course, it might START a few as well.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Gee, thanks for all that Winnie. Just think what the world would be like if everyone had "middle class or higher middle class". No more "social issues" except wives making their maids feel like a lower class of animal? Can't even shit in the same hole?

Yeh, a bit of classism is fine for you. How about a bit of racism or a bit of theft or just a very little bit of rape? Like how do you draw the line?

As you probably know, a bit of racism is not deemed overly incorrect in Thailand. Different topic. As for a bit of rape, that probably requires a bigger explanation, though I'm sure people who want to misunderstand it can probably still do so just fine: 'a bit of rape' is quite common. Not sure how much experience we all have with the allegedly elusive 'good Thai girls', but if there is one thing that so many of them do when they want to have sex then it's make a very mild 'show of virtue'. For example they'd claim that the half glass of wine they had really went to their head, or they'd pretend to 'resist' ever so slightly. For some the 'slight-resist' is just part of some fantasy, for others it's the fig leaf of virtue that they have to show, so they don't run the risk of seeming slutty.. Clearly we're not talking actual resistance, but if you wanted to seek a scenario to fit 'a little bit of rape' then there you go. DISCLAIMER: I'm NOT advocating that anyone now forces themselves on anyone they fancy. I'm trying to explain some of the 'mixed signals' that newbie Farangs often experience when dating non-bargirls.

I agree. Maybe not the rape part, but if my girlfriend acted that way (above) to someone I would come down hard on her, because it's not acceptable to treat people like that. The thing is, my girlfriend wouldn't treat people like that, treats everyone equally that deserve to be treated that way.

So does mine. The maid rules I don't really get; her family always had staff, and that's what they did. So I think it's all a bit peculiar, but whatever. I'm choosing my battles.

You seem to imply that those who are 'born' into middle or upper middle class have the right to "show a tendency to want to put down anyone they feel they are superior to." but when someone from a lower class who moves up (or tries to) does the same THEN it annoys you.

Sorry, no that was not what I was trying to say. I was trying (and failing) to say was that for example my wife gets along GREAT with everyone, including partners of friends of mine who were bargirls before, and also we can easily even visit bars in Loi Kroh (yay, back on topic!) together. When I was in a relationship with someone who perceived herself as better than bargirls and the like, this made things much more difficult. To the point where parties with friends who married bargirls just turned awkward, and also she wouldn't want to be seen anywhere near bars, and was just very self conscious about every remark by anyone about being in a relationship with a foreigner. This is what I was attempting to say, that it's good to have a partner with enough confidence to get along with anyone, not care about what anyone thinks, and not be overly obsessed by the whole 'appearances' thing. ( I think the maid thing is more related to an employer-employee relationship than an attempt at being classist. Or it's just what Thais-with-staff do; I don't know. )

[WinnieTheKhwai]

These gals--due to the existing social structure--have no other outs other than "taking care" of Farangs. If they(the exception being very hot Isaan gals) work in the Thai "service" industry they make peanuts, and they get treated with little or no respect.

Some Westerners would give girls respect, but most certainly not all. Also not sure they would make peanuts in entertainment places outside of the tourist scene; clearly if this was the case then all tourist bars would be filled to the brim with pretty girls. In actual fact it's the other way around.. When I go out on Friday night I drive up Chiang Mai Land / Chang Klan usually, and it's the non-tourist venues that are stacked to the brim with pretties.

That said, there is probably a segment that does better in tourist bars, specifically the older ones with reasonable English. But for the young chicks.. they make way more money in local Thai places, often with easier/less risky work.

[Amras]

Sorry, no that was not what I was trying to say. I was trying (and failing) to say was that for example my wife gets along GREAT with everyone, including partners of friends of mine who were bargirls before, and also we can easily even visit bars in Loi Kroh (yay, back on topic!) together. When I was in a relationship with someone who perceived herself as better than bargirls and the like, this made things much more difficult. To the point where parties with friends who married bargirls just turned awkward, and also she wouldn't want to be seen anywhere near bars, and was just very self conscious about every remark by anyone about being in a relationship with a foreigner. This is what I was attempting to say, that it's good to have a partner with enough confidence to get along with anyone, not care about what anyone thinks, and not be overly obsessed by the whole 'appearances' thing. ( I think the maid thing is more related to an employer-employee relationship than an attempt at being classist. Or it's just what Thais-with-staff do; I don't know. )

Fair enough. That explains probably better what you intended and I think something was lost in your initial discussion. The maid thing could very well be true regarding work, I still think it is over the top, but again choose your battles.

Maybe I'm a little defensive, maybe I just happen to get a decent girl who is from the 'lower class'. But then shes not really Thai, so maybe that makes a difference as well.

I do still think that there are always exceptions (but less so with bar girls as a generalisation). Those working to make a living in low paid jobs and those who take the easy road to cash through bar jobs are two very different type of people. Many people just won't do anything for money, some are happy to. I would never have a relationship with someone who works in P4P for a number of reasons.

Guess it all comes down to an individual. Money comes and goes, a persons character and how they treat people are somethings that don't really change.

As you probably know, a bit of racism is not deemed overly incorrect in Thailand. Different topic. As for a bit of rape, that probably requires a bigger explanation, though I'm sure people who want to misunderstand it can probably still do so just fine: 'a bit of rape' is quite common. Not sure how much experience we all have with the allegedly elusive 'good Thai girls', but if there is one thing that so many of them do when they want to have sex then it's make a very mild 'show of virtue'. For example they'd claim that the half glass of wine they had really went to their head, or they'd pretend to 'resist' ever so slightly. For some the 'slight-resist' is just part of some fantasy, for others it's the fig leaf of virtue that they have to show, so they don't run the risk of seeming slutty.. Clearly we're not talking actual resistance, but if you wanted to seek a scenario to fit 'a little bit of rape' then there you go. DISCLAIMER: I'm NOT advocating that anyone now forces themselves on anyone they fancy. I'm trying to explain some of the 'mixed signals' that newbie Farangs often experience when dating non-bargirls.

That's girls all over, not just in Thailand. I think however that many farang assume that somehow Thai girls are inherently different to western girls. Many attitudes are different, however many such as the 'not appearing slutty' are common to girls all around the world. If they don't at least give the appearance of being difficult, they are making it too easy. Don't forget there is a lot more to female behavior than just that. It's also to weird out guys who don't so conviction etc (even done at a subconscious level). But that's another discussion.

Many farang get the first impressions of bar girls and place that as Thai girls (as do lots of westerners living outside Thailand). But in fact Thai girls, have many of the same needs and struggle with the same issues as girls all around the world.

In any case, treat people how the deserve to be treated by how they treat you and let's not pigeon hole anybody into a class because we are farang and well we are better than that aren't we?

[Dante99]

As you probably know, a bit of racism is not deemed overly incorrect in Thailand.

I suppose that may be true for those on the top of the racist pile.

So, "when in Rome ..........."

Yes? Really?

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Guess it all comes down to an individual. Money comes and goes, a persons character and how they treat people are somethings that don't really change.

In any case, treat people how the deserve to be treated by how they treat you and let's not pigeon hole anybody into a class because we are farang and well we are better than that aren't we?

[Dante99]

Maybe I'm a little defensive, maybe I just happen to get a decent girl who is from the 'lower class'. But then shes not really Thai, so maybe that makes a difference as well.

No reason to be defensive. Your lady is from the "lower class" but she is most likely much better than many of them who come from the "middle or upper class". Your lady has real class because of who she is not because of the material things her family has or gave to her. Not to worry about all those ignorant people who consider "class" important or those who treat others as objects rather than people, such as the ones who think they are better than their maids just because they are "maids".

[elektrified]

These gals--due to the existing social structure--have no other outs other than "taking care" of Farangs. If they(the exception being very hot Isaan gals) work in the Thai "service" industry they make peanuts, and they get treated with little or no respect.

Some Westerners would give girls respect, but most certainly not all. Also not sure they would make peanuts in entertainment places outside of the tourist scene; clearly if this was the case then all tourist bars would be filled to the brim with pretty girls. In actual fact it's the other way around.. When I go out on Friday night I drive up Chiang Mai Land / Chang Klan usually, and it's the non-tourist venues that are stacked to the brim with pretties.

That said, there is probably a segment that does better in tourist bars, specifically the older ones with reasonable English. But for the young chicks.. they make way more money in local Thai places, often with easier/less risky work.

That is so true. The real lookers (and money makers) can be found right where WTK stated. And indeed the work is less risky and the rewards are much higher. It is a known fact that many of the single Japanese men tourists who end up at that part of town and frequent the establishments there, don't expect to have sex with the girls. They drop a bundle on expensive booze, pay up the nose to have a couple of cuties sitting on their lap singing them songs while they chain smoke cigarettes. The girls don't speak English and for the most part neither do the Japanese men. The only communication is a lot of laughing between them... Afterwards they give very sizable tips and head back to their hotel to drink and smoke some more and watch porno DVD's. I worked with Japanese people in the music industry for many years and every time I was asked to take out some of the guys for a night on the town, it was always the same thing. I never understood it but the guys always seemed to be very satisfied and thanked me profusely for showing them a memorable evening.

Indeed the Japanese and other Asian men that visit these places are very respectful to the girls.

[PlanetX]

These gals--due to the existing social structure--have no other outs other than "taking care" of Farangs. If they(the exception being very hot Isaan gals) work in the Thai "service" industry they make peanuts, and they get treated with little or no respect.

Some Westerners would give girls respect, but most certainly not all. Also not sure they would make peanuts in entertainment places outside of the tourist scene; clearly if this was the case then all tourist bars would be filled to the brim with pretty girls. In actual fact it's the other way around.. When I go out on Friday night I drive up Chiang Mai Land / Chang Klan usually, and it's the non-tourist venues that are stacked to the brim with pretties.

That said, there is probably a segment that does better in tourist bars, specifically the older ones with reasonable English. But for the young chicks.. they make way more money in local Thai places, often with easier/less risky work.

That is so true. The real lookers (and money makers) can be found right where WTK stated. And indeed the work is less risky and the rewards are much higher. It is a known fact that many of the single Japanese men tourists who end up at that part of town and frequent the establishments there, don't expect to have sex with the girls. They drop a bundle on expensive booze, pay up the nose to have a couple of cuties sitting on their lap singing them songs while they chain smoke cigarettes. The girls don't speak English and for the most part neither do the Japanese men. The only communication is a lot of laughing between them... Afterwards they give very sizable tips and head back to their hotel to drink and smoke some more and watch porno DVD's. I worked with Japanese people in the music industry for many years and every time I was asked to take out some of the guys for a night on the town, it was always the same thing. I never understood it but the guys always seemed to be very satisfied and thanked me profusely for showing them a memorable evening.

Indeed the Japanese and other Asian men that visit these places are very respectful to the girls.

You definitely see this alot in Japan with the "hostess" bars

[WinnieTheKhwai]

As you probably know, a bit of racism is not deemed overly incorrect in Thailand.

I suppose that may be true for those on the top of the racist pile.

So, "when in Rome ..........."

Yes? Really?

"When in Rome" refers to imitating local behaviour. I don't do that in all cases. But I also don't get overly upset about it. For example, say I'm sitting next to a black guy in a bar, and some joking conversation ensues with the staff, him and yours truly, in which skin colour features prominently, but in a joking and good natured manner. At that time I would not get upset, and would not raise it as an issue. (Not on the spot, and also would not whine about it afterwards on an on-line forum) Anyway, that's "a little bit of racism" for you.

You're making it sound like it's like 'a little bit pregnant'. Clearly racism is not a black and white issue, there's hues and gradations.

(Hi Five for the pun. )

[Lancelot]

This is more like what I see along Loy Kroh... just friendly people enjoying themselves. In the past 8 years I've never had a bad experience there despite spending most evenings in that part of town.

When I read the original post, I was excited and couldn't wait to get down to Loy Kroh to immerse myself in "seediness."

Now Ian has gone and spoiled it for me. Sad...

[Amras]

These gals--due to the existing social structure--have no other outs other than "taking care" of Farangs. If they(the exception being very hot Isaan gals) work in the Thai "service" industry they make peanuts, and they get treated with little or no respect.

Some Westerners would give girls respect, but most certainly not all. Also not sure they would make peanuts in entertainment places outside of the tourist scene; clearly if this was the case then all tourist bars would be filled to the brim with pretty girls. In actual fact it's the other way around.. When I go out on Friday night I drive up Chiang Mai Land / Chang Klan usually, and it's the non-tourist venues that are stacked to the brim with pretties.

That said, there is probably a segment that does better in tourist bars, specifically the older ones with reasonable English. But for the young chicks.. they make way more money in local Thai places, often with easier/less risky work.

That is so true. The real lookers (and money makers) can be found right where WTK stated. And indeed the work is less risky and the rewards are much higher. It is a known fact that many of the single Japanese men tourists who end up at that part of town and frequent the establishments there, don't expect to have sex with the girls. They drop a bundle on expensive booze, pay up the nose to have a couple of cuties sitting on their lap singing them songs while they chain smoke cigarettes. The girls don't speak English and for the most part neither do the Japanese men. The only communication is a lot of laughing between them... Afterwards they give very sizable tips and head back to their hotel to drink and smoke some more and watch porno DVD's. I worked with Japanese people in the music industry for many years and every time I was asked to take out some of the guys for a night on the town, it was always the same thing. I never understood it but the guys always seemed to be very satisfied and thanked me profusely for showing them a memorable evening.

Indeed the Japanese and other Asian men that visit these places are very respectful to the girls.

Very true. Go to the Karaoke, Coyote places that aren't on the 'tourist map' and the girls are much much better. You can even tell just driving past. Some of them do speak ok english, it's a bit of luck though.

Loh Kroh was much better around 2 years ago. I remember then there were some reasonably attractive girls. Now I drive down there and well, I can't even say I see one. But the new tourists seem to love it non the less.

[Ulysses G.]

One of my favorites worked at Chiang Mai land for a while and said the financial rewards were very low compared to working in the bars oriented to farangs. The prices to take them out of the bars is much higher, but not much goes to the girls. The owners make out like bandits.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

They drop a bundle on expensive booze, pay up the nose to have a couple of cuties sitting on their lap singing them songs while they chain smoke cigarettes. The girls don't speak English and for the most part neither do the Japanese men. The only communication is a lot of laughing between them... Afterwards they give very sizable tips and head back to their hotel to drink and smoke some more and watch porno DVD's. I worked with Japanese people in the music industry for many years and every time I was asked to take out some of the guys for a night on the town, it was always the same thing. I never understood it but the guys always seemed to be very satisfied and thanked me profusely for showing them a memorable evening.

So.. in all candor, that pretty much describes my nights out.

(Minus the sizeable tips and cigarettes. And minus any communication troubles, there is a remarkable variety and depth in conversation.)

EDIT: (And the porn of course isn't on DVD.)

[IanForbes]

A man can only handle so many women and after that any more is just excess. Even for a young, healthy stud there is such a thing as excess. When you are sitting under a tree full of ripe fruit there is only so much you can eat. Thailand is like that. After a while a single man just narrows it down to a few special ladies and leaves the excess alone. That doesn't mean he can't enjoy the visual display wandering about so freely, but there is no need to dabble in it. I often wonder what might have happened had I visited Thailand in my twenties. I somehow don't think it would be much different than today. There would always be an excess of choices no matter how much you wanted it all.

A man could be a eunuch and still enjoy himself with all the action.

[elektrified]

Very true. Go to the Karaoke, Coyote places that aren't on the 'tourist map' and the girls are much much better. You can even tell just driving past. Some of them do speak ok english, it's a bit of luck though.

Loh Kroh was much better around 2 years ago. I remember then there were some reasonably attractive girls. Now I drive down there and well, I can't even say I see one. But the new tourists seem to love it non the less.

Indeed. Some of the girls at the karaoke places on Chang Klan are drop dead gorgeous and some are as tall as models. Loi Kroh on the other hand has some very unattractive middle-aged women working there these days. You gotta feel sorry for some of them having to try and make a living there. When I first came in 2007 it seemed the girls were younger and more beautiful. The economy was better and there were more tourists...

[WinnieTheKhwai]

A man can only handle so many women and after that any more is just excess. Even for a young, healthy stud there is such a thing as excess. When you are sitting under a tree full of ripe fruit there is only so much you can eat.

Right, some of it VERY ripe.

Perhaps it's not that you actually would need to eat it all, but there's a definite convenience to having abundant low hanging fruit. The warm feeling that you don't even need to reach, with Mr. Newton taking care of everything.

There'd be a juicy mango falling down almost right next to you, but you can STILL just say "meh, I'll wait for one landing right in my lap,"

Thailand is like that. After a while a single man just narrows it down to a few special ladies and leaves the excess alone.

Careful, that gets awfully close to 'Partner(s)'. Mr. No1 doesn't like that.

I often wonder what might have happened had I visited Thailand in my twenties.

I did live in Thailand during most of my twenties. Can't say I notice much of a difference when it comes to the things that matter, fruit or otherwise. Well, a bag of pineapple chunks was 5 baht then; not a major difference. And there wasn't as big a selection of apples and other imported fruit, from what I remember.

[Bubbalicious]

"I was taken back just how seedy, dirty and squalid that area has become."

What was it like before?

Exactly. I haven't noticed much of a change. On my first visit to CM 7 years ago I was dropped off at the corner of Loi Kroh and the moat after inquiring about some "good pubs". That was the closest I've come to the place but I do drive by there from time to time and it doesn't seem to be much different. Though I'm sure there are quite a few TV posters who appreciate the diversions available there.

[Beetlejuice]

Very true. Go to the Karaoke, Coyote places that aren't on the 'tourist map' and the girls are much much better. You can even tell just driving past. Some of them do speak ok english, it's a bit of luck though.

Loh Kroh was much better around 2 years ago. I remember then there were some reasonably attractive girls. Now I drive down there and well, I can't even say I see one. But the new tourists seem to love it non the less.

Indeed. Some of the girls at the karaoke places on Chang Klan are drop dead gorgeous and some are as tall as models. Loi Kroh on the other hand has some very unattractive middle-aged women working there these days. You gotta feel sorry for some of them having to try and make a living there. When I first came in 2007 it seemed the girls were younger and more beautiful. The economy was better and there were more tourists...

My analysis exactly. The night scene in Chiang Mai has been allowed to run it`s self down over the years and even to fade away completely in some parts. Most of the tourists that are seeking the night entertainments will head for the Loi Kroh road because in Chiang Mai there is not much else and a lack of choice.

For those that see this differently must be viewing the scene with rose tinted spectacles.

So I revert back to my original statement that the area is in need of an overhaul and revitalisation.

[slapout]

Some of the more beautiful girls are also blessed with 20/20 eye sight. and the movements of a rabbit when a predator is lurking. I have observed a few who disappear when they see some of the punters heading their way.

[galaxist]

Some of the more beautiful girls are also blessed with 20/20 eye sight. and the movements of a rabbit when a predator is lurking. I have observed a few who disappear when they see some of the punters heading their way.

I 100% agree with this statement. A young beauty always seems to come from deep within the bar when Im standing out front.

[Beetlejuice]

Some of the more beautiful girls are also blessed with 20/20 eye sight. and the movements of a rabbit when a predator is lurking. I have observed a few who disappear when they see some of the punters heading their way.

I 100% agree with this statement. A young beauty always seems to come from deep within the bar when Im standing out front.

This is because bar owners store them in they’re cellars until a VIP customer decides to visit.

[uptheos]

Some of the more beautiful girls are also blessed with 20/20 eye sight. and the movements of a rabbit when a predator is lurking. I have observed a few who disappear when they see some of the punters heading their way.

I 100% agree with this statement. A young beauty always seems to come from deep within the bar when Im standing out front.

This is because bar owners store them in they're cellars until a VIP customer decides to visit.

Or a mug.

[IanForbes]

Some of the more beautiful girls are also blessed with 20/20 eye sight. and the movements of a rabbit when a predator is lurking. I have observed a few who disappear when they see some of the punters heading their way.

There is no denying that. I've seen many of the girls turn their backs when certain men begin to approach. I know a couple guys the girls would have nothing to do with. Obviously they knew something that I didn't. But, I'll still say there is a wide variety for men to choose from and certainly enough variety for the women to choose from. Unless a guy is known as a big roller the girls have their preferences. It's kind of fun sitting back as an observer watching the action.

[scottishjohn]

A man can only handle so many women and after that any more is just excess. Even for a young, healthy stud there is such a thing as excess. When you are sitting under a tree full of ripe fruit there is only so much you can eat. Thailand is like that. After a while a single man just narrows it down to a few special ladies and leaves the excess alone. That doesn't mean he can't enjoy the visual display wandering about so freely, but there is no need to dabble in it. I often wonder what might have happened had I visited Thailand in my twenties. I somehow don't think it would be much different than today. There would always be an excess of choices no matter how much you wanted it all.

A man could be a eunuch and still enjoy himself with all the action.

As the eunuch said 'what a load of (X) b**ls'

[DLock]

I pulled a 10 from a bar in Loi Kroh the other night.

It was hard to fit all 5 girls in the car however.

[lanna2011]

These gals--due to the existing social structure--have no other outs other than "taking care" of Farangs. If they(the exception being very hot Isaan gals) work in the Thai "service" industry they make peanuts, and they get treated with little or no respect.

Some Westerners would give girls respect, but most certainly not all. Also not sure they would make peanuts in entertainment places outside of the tourist scene; clearly if this was the case then all tourist bars would be filled to the brim with pretty girls. In actual fact it's the other way around.. When I go out on Friday night I drive up Chiang Mai Land / Chang Klan usually, and it's the non-tourist venues that are stacked to the brim with pretties.

That said, there is probably a segment that does better in tourist bars, specifically the older ones with reasonable English. But for the young chicks.. they make way more money in local Thai places, often with easier/less risky work.

That is so true. The real lookers (and money makers) can be found right where WTK stated. And indeed the work is less risky and the rewards are much higher. It is a known fact that many of the single Japanese men tourists who end up at that part of town and frequent the establishments there, don't expect to have sex with the girls. They drop a bundle on expensive booze, pay up the nose to have a couple of cuties sitting on their lap singing them songs while they chain smoke cigarettes. The girls don't speak English and for the most part neither do the Japanese men. The only communication is a lot of laughing between them... Afterwards they give very sizable tips and head back to their hotel to drink and smoke some more and watch porno DVD's. I worked with Japanese people in the music industry for many years and every time I was asked to take out some of the guys for a night on the town, it was always the same thing. I never understood it but the guys always seemed to be very satisfied and thanked me profusely for showing them a memorable evening.

Indeed the Japanese and other Asian men that visit these places are very respectful to the girls.

Very true. Go to the Karaoke, Coyote places that aren't on the 'tourist map' and the girls are much much better. You can even tell just driving past. Some of them do speak ok english, it's a bit of luck though.

Loh Kroh was much better around 2 years ago. I remember then there were some reasonably attractive girls. Now I drive down there and well, I can't even say I see one. But the new tourists seem to love it non the less.

I had not thought about it but that's true - it was better a couple of years ago - I wonder what changed?

[WinnieTheKhwai]

I had not thought about it but that's true - it was better a couple of years ago - I wonder what changed?

Your taste in women, most likely.

[lanna2011]

I had not thought about it but that's true - it was better a couple of years ago - I wonder what changed?

Your taste in women, most likely.

[bloody tiger]

Personally I would like to see the whole area levelled and replaced with new decent Western style restaurants, giving more choice for tourists and those living here alike, no more open beer bars, all beer bars restored with frontages and doors.

good plan, revamp everything so its "western style". How stupid of some people to think that tourists or foriegners here would enjoy things being Thai!!!