Can They Do This?

[Netfan]

Just received new contract from my school - private international uni. For the past 10 years the contract has said "Must be on-campus minimum of 30 hours per week". new contract says "40 hours per week". And no salary increase. I know the school can do whatever they want, but if we (several teachers) decide not to sign, do we have any recourse as far as going to the labor dept? We see it as a ploy by the school to get rid of long-term teachers. A couple of years ago some of us got "good luck and good-bye" letters, but the students got wind of it and refused to register for classes, so it was called a mistake and we got new contracts. Now this.

[Kilgore Trout]

Why would you want to stay there if you think they want you out? I wouldn't want to work where I was not welcome.

[Netfan]

Why would you want to stay there if you think they want you out? I wouldn't want to work where I was not welcome.

I've been there 10 years. I feel I have some kind of severance due if I'm forced out. This is coming from upper management, who we have little contact with outside of contract time - they don't have the interest in dealing day to day with faculty, so 11 months a year there is no "not wanted" feeling. Also, the students are a plus (yeah, I know, shocking) - in class teaching is fun. Finally, why go somewhere else- better the devil you know than the one you don't.

[Kilgore Trout]

Why would you want to stay there if you think they want you out? I wouldn't want to work where I was not welcome.

I've been there 10 years. I feel I have some kind of severance due if I'm forced out. This is coming from upper management, who we have little contact with outside of contract time - they don't have the interest in dealing day to day with faculty, so 11 months a year there is no "not wanted" feeling. Also, the students are a plus (yeah, I know, shocking) - in class teaching is fun. Finally, why go somewhere else- better the devil you know than the one you don't.

Point taken. Its a shame people usually don't get the benefits here you would get back home; pension, tenure etc.

I always tell my friends who work at uni's here to eventually get a masters in esl or something similar, so in the event they are forced out of a job, or even Thailand they will be able to land a job as an instructor in another country or back home.

I don't think you will have much recourse with this one though; they are likely to take the line that your old contract has expired, here's the new one; sign it or not; up to you.

I wish you luck though, my friend

[Scott]

Best of luck.

I don't think you have much recourse, since the new contract isn't violating Thai Labor Law. I am not a lawyer, but I believe that they can put most anything in the contract as long it doesn't violate the national laws, or laws specific to an occupation.

It might be that we have some legal experts who can give you better guidance.

[jdinasia]

If you have had the same contract for years and they are making this change, then maybe you have some recourse. If the contract has changed year on year regularly I don't think that there is anything you can do other than bite the bullet or resign.

I would check with the MoL in person with copies of your previous contracts and the current one they want you to sign.

[richard10365]

Thai teachers have to be at work 40 hours a week. In your country where you come from you probably have to be at work 40 hours a week. Chances are you don't have to do as much as the Thai teachers do. What makes you better than Thai teachers?

I am starting to think that hiring foreigners to teach international programs is a mistake. If you hire Thai people that speak English just as good as native English speakers who are also highly educated and qualified to teach the subject they are hired to teach, and pay them the same wages you pay foreigners, they would probably perform much better than western teachers.

It doesn't make sense to hire someone for more pay when they work less and complain more.

[up-country_sinclair]

If you hire Thai people that speak English just as good as native English speakers

Good luck with that.

[Kilgore Trout]

If you hire Thai people that speak English just as good as native English speakers

Good luck with that.

No kidding

[montrii]

Thai teachers have to be at work 40 hours a week. In your country where you come from you probably have to be at work 40 hours a week. Chances are you don't have to do as much as the Thai teachers do. What makes you better than Thai teachers?

I am starting to think that hiring foreigners to teach international programs is a mistake. If you hire Thai people that speak English just as good as native English speakers who are also highly educated and qualified to teach the subject they are hired to teach, and pay them the same wages you pay foreigners, they would probably perform much better than western teachers.

It doesn't make sense to hire someone for more pay when they work less and complain more.

This doesn't speak to the issue at all. They're apparently changing the contract for no good reason, that's the issue. And I'm pretty sure you have never worked as a teacher in one of these schools, or you'd realize there is really no good reason at all for staying on campus beyond teaching hours, there's really nothing to do. I have worked in government schools, and this was not required of me. Why do you assume the writer here is complaining more than the Thais do, or saying he's better than the Thais? That's all coming from you, not from the substance here.

And you are definitely out of touch if you think there are many Thai teachers that speak English anywhere near as well as native English speakers. That's not to say there aren't a lot of incompetents being hired, but NetFan has been working there 10 years, and is probably a great teacher. Anyone who enjoys it the way NetFan apparently does is very likely getting the job done well.

[Tatsujin]

I am starting to think that hiring foreigners to teach international programs is a mistake. If you hire Thai people that speak English just as good as native English speakers who are also highly educated and qualified to teach the subject they are hired to teach, and pay them the same wages you pay foreigners, they would probably perform much better than western teachers.

Do you actually live in Thailand? Whilst I agree in principle with what you say, the reality is that the vast majority of those that ARE able to speak English here still do not speak at the level of a native English speaking person. The other issue you are not addressing in any way is that it is the PARENTS who want native English speaking Teachers, not Thai, not Filipino, not anything else.

[jcartermad]

My wife has been an English teacher for 25 years. Her written English is good. So is her grammar. Speech wise she did struggle when I first met her 4 years ago. Her oral English is now good but never up to Native Speaker level.

I know many Thai's who have travelled all over the world and used English daily. They still struggle on idioms and the like. I just cannot see how any country could do without native speakers in schools / universities.

Other posters are right. Parents want native speakers and in the end they provide the money on EP programmes, gifts to the school for Gifted Prgrammes, (no pun intended) and generally donate via the numerous money tree events. They want white native speakers and will not settle for less. I don't agree on the white bit myself but hey I'm a guest worker so I go with the flow,

I am starting to think that hiring foreigners to teach international programs is a mistake. If you hire Thai people that speak English just as good as native English speakers who are also highly educated and qualified to teach the subject they are hired to teach, and pay them the same wages you pay foreigners, they would probably perform much better than western teachers.

Do you actually live in Thailand? Whilst I agree in principle with what you say, the reality is that the vast majority of those that ARE able to speak English here still do not speak at the level of a native English speaking person. The other issue you are not addressing in any way is that it is the PARENTS who want native English speaking Teachers, not Thai, not Filipino, not anything else.

[Scott]

There is a difference between paid labor and professionals. Paid labor adheres to specific times and hours worked. Professional positions usually require some flexibility. I know very few teachers who can write exams and correct them, teach classes and get everything done in a 40 hour work week. Most schools and Universities are aware of this and so they build in some flexibility.

I am not particularly knowledgeable about universities, but I do have an acquaintance with a Ph.D. who works at a University. He teaches his classes and he is required to have a certain number of office hours at the school when he can be contacted by students and staff. The hours must be regular and the schedule is set.

He was hired for his knowledge and expertise and his ability to impart that to students.

There will be some differences among professions. For students who are not yet adults (KG-Mathyom), they would be required to remain with their students. Doctors and Nurses would have the same restrictions.

[Netfan]

Thai teachers have to be at work 40 hours a week. In your country where you come from you probably have to be at work 40 hours a week. Chances are you don't have to do as much as the Thai teachers do. What makes you better than Thai teachers?

I am starting to think that hiring foreigners to teach international programs is a mistake. If you hire Thai people that speak English just as good as native English speakers who are also highly educated and qualified to teach the subject they are hired to teach, and pay them the same wages you pay foreigners, they would probably perform much better than western teachers.

It doesn't make sense to hire someone for more pay when they work less and complain more.

First of all, Thai teahcers at this uni work under the same contract rules. And we do have English teachers who are Thai - they are very well spoken, and know grammar rules probably better than i do. I do not know hat their salaries are, that is between them and the school. Oh, and the Thai owner - drives a Bentely rather than putting money back into the school. So who is f***king the thail teachers over? Second of all, it's "just as well as native English speakers". Third of all, GFY.

Edited April 29, 2011 by Netfan

[Netfan]

Thai teachers have to be at work 40 hours a week. In your country where you come from you probably have to be at work 40 hours a week. Chances are you don't have to do as much as the Thai teachers do. What makes you better than Thai teachers?

I am starting to think that hiring foreigners to teach international programs is a mistake. If you hire Thai people that speak English just as good as native English speakers who are also highly educated and qualified to teach the subject they are hired to teach, and pay them the same wages you pay foreigners, they would probably perform much better than western teachers.

It doesn't make sense to hire someone for more pay when they work less and complain more.

This doesn't speak to the issue at all. They're apparently changing the contract for no good reason, that's the issue. And I'm pretty sure you have never worked as a teacher in one of these schools, or you'd realize there is really no good reason at all for staying on campus beyond teaching hours, there's really nothing to do. I have worked in government schools, and this was not required of me. Why do you assume the writer here is complaining more than the Thais do, or saying he's better than the Thais? That's all coming from you, not from the substance here.

And you are definitely out of touch if you think there are many Thai teachers that speak English anywhere near as well as native English speakers. That's not to say there aren't a lot of incompetents being hired, but NetFan has been working there 10 years, and is probably a great teacher. Anyone who enjoys it the way NetFan apparently does is very likely getting the job done well.

Thanks to you and Scott for the comments. This wasn't mean to be a rant - just asking a question about being ttreated fairly. It looks as if we're up the perverbial creek, though. Sign or leave. Sad, but making sure the teachers know their place and treating us like children will mean the students lose out.

[BruceMangosteen]

I would assume that if you refused to sign a new contract, you are quitting/quit, and the idea of severance is out the window.

All this talk about parents caring that their children have native English speakers has always been a myth as well. I don't think they actually complain about anything in Thailand, it causes conflict. If the parent had a choice and could afford an international school, I'm sure the kid would be there, not in an EP program with unqualified for the most part, teachers.

When I ask "why hire a Filipino when you, a Thai, speak English just as well ?", I am not making an inquiry, I'm complaining.

[ArtVandelay]

I wish I had 10 Baht every time I've seen a Thai administrator make a decision that affected their school adversely. I wouldn't have to teach anymore.

[Firelily]

> I don't think they actually complain about anything in Thailand, it causes conflict.

Bruce, any job openings in your school?

The parents are almost worse than the kids and management combined.

Edited May 1, 2011 by Firelily

[Yelly]

I am still studying for my TEFL certificate, so I have not personally attempted this: BUT, I've read that you can mark out and change a few things in a contract you don't like, then just initial by the changes. So, in theory, you aren't rejecting the position, just changing the things you disagree with. Why not attempt to mark out the 40 hours, replace with 30, initial, then sign as always?

Again, just re-iterating that I have not personally done this. I just have the idea from a book about teaching in Thailand that I read recently.

[razer]

Thai teachers have to be at work 40 hours a week. In your country where you come from you probably have to be at work 40 hours a week. Chances are you don't have to do as much as the Thai teachers do. What makes you better than Thai teachers?

I am starting to think that hiring foreigners to teach international programs is a mistake. If you hire Thai people that speak English just as good as native English speakers who are also highly educated and qualified to teach the subject they are hired to teach, and pay them the same wages you pay foreigners, they would probably perform much better than western teachers.

It doesn't make sense to hire someone for more pay when they work less and complain more.

This doesn't speak to the issue at all. They're apparently changing the contract for no good reason, that's the issue. And I'm pretty sure you have never worked as a teacher in one of these schools, or you'd realize there is really no good reason at all for staying on campus beyond teaching hours, there's really nothing to do. I have worked in government schools, and this was not required of me. Why do you assume the writer here is complaining more than the Thais do, or saying he's better than the Thais? That's all coming from you, not from the substance here.

And you are definitely out of touch if you think there are many Thai teachers that speak English anywhere near as well as native English speakers. That's not to say there aren't a lot of incompetents being hired, but NetFan has been working there 10 years, and is probably a great teacher. Anyone who enjoys it the way NetFan apparently does is very likely getting the job done well.

NBT just reported that 4,000 out of 4,000 senior high Thai students failed the National Education Proficiency Tests. So much for hardworking Thai teachers as a generality. There are, to be sure, some excellent, hard working Thai teachers who should be admired and respected but I believe they are the exception rather than the norm. Many of the Thai teachers I have worked with may do 40 hours but they are lazy, don't care about student attendence,do little if anything for class preparation, administer relatively easy tests after practically giving the students the test during review week and never fail a student no matter what. When ASEAN kicks in 2015, you will be begging foreign teachers to upgrade the Thai system . I dare say one of the greatest assets to the Thai education system is the foreign teachers. Reality bites. Facts are facts and if Thailand wants to join the rest of the world they need to start with better education for their kids.

Edited May 1, 2011 by razer

[razer]

I have taught in several countries and I never saw anything like Thailand. The Thai management in Education relish the Master - Servant role. When they learn how to be managers and when they see their foreign teachers as an asset rather than a necessary liability, there will be huge improvements both in the quality of foreign teachers and in the quality of education

[Scott]

Razer: welcome to the forum.

[richard10365]

I have taught in several countries and I never saw anything like Thailand. The Thai management in Education relish the Master - Servant role. When they learn how to be managers and when they see their foreign teachers as an asset rather than a necessary liability, there will be huge improvements both in the quality of foreign teachers and in the quality of education

Geert Hofstede™ Cultural Dimensions

http://www.geert-hofstede.com/hofstede_thailand.shtml

[junkofdavid2]

We see it as a ploy by the school to get rid of long-term teachers

Is this new contract for all teachers, or only for the "long term" ones like you suggest?

[Markaew]

I would assume that if you refused to sign a new contract, you are quitting/quit, and the idea of severance is out the window.

All this talk about parents caring that their children have native English speakers has always been a myth as well. I don't think they actually complain about anything in Thailand, it causes conflict. If the parent had a choice and could afford an international school, I'm sure the kid would be there, not in an EP program with unqualified for the most part, teachers.

When I ask "why hire a Filipino when you, a Thai, speak English just as well ?", I am not making an inquiry, I'm complaining.

That's true. The parents don't speak but they take their child elsewhere causing the school to lose enrollment.

[Ijustwannateach]

Let's not go overboard on criticism of all foreign teachers based on the posts of one- that is technically against subforum guidelines (cf).

OP has a legitimate complaint in the form of an increase in working requirements without any apparent additional compensation. The school has the apparent upper hand in the form of hoping that the employees will simply swallow the new requirements because they don't want a change. It's up to the employees to decide if the issue is annoying enough to need the change; if it is, they will punish the school by leaving (as they should; capitalism, blah blah blah).

Anyone who says that an employee should not complain about a legitimate employment issue is either a management shill or a troll.

[BruceMangosteen]

Anyone who says that an employee should not complain about a legitimate employment issue is either a management shill or a troll.

In the context of a foreigner who is teaching in a Thai school I think you are very wrong. My point earlier was simple, suggestions/ideas about how to improve or do things are considered complaints by Thai people in most cases. I'd never say all. Examples in my small world include textbook selection, interview questions, desk and chair choices, class assignments, and of course the requirement of a legitimate college degree and/or being a native English speaker along with age, race, and gender discrimination.

[CWMcMurray]

It would be interesting to know if this is an across the board change for all teachers both Thai and Foreign or if some are being singled out.

As another poster has mentioned, it is often required for teachers to have a certain number of 'office hours' in addition to their teaching hours.

Is it possible that this may be a policy change by the university to ensure that all professors are present and keeping a reasonable number of office hours?

I realize that I do not work in a University, but 40 hrs a week does not seem excessive to me... Working in the 'non-teaching world', I can end up putting in around +60hr a week at the office.

[Scott]

My experience is anecdotal but, I have noticed an overall tightening of rules as they apply to foreign teachers. Years ago, working hours were fairly lax, coming and going from school was pretty lax and a number of other rules were overlooked.

More teachers are complaining about having to stay at school, having to stay longer and more responsibility.

I don't know if this is pervasive, but seems to be more common than a few years back.

The reason often cited is that Thai teachers must comply with these rules.