To Go To Court Or Not To Go To Court?

[scottydel]

Hi,

37-year-old American here with 4-year-old mix Son. Mother and I are not married. We've agreed that I will raise Son in America for his education, and arrange visits so he still sees his Mother each year. Mother has signed Power of Attorney from US Embassy granting rights for Son and myself to travel internationally together. Son and I have already spent 10 months in America without Mother. Son has two passports, two birth certificates with myself listed as father. Son currently has his mother's last name, but changing to mine through US courts is in progress.

Question: Should I pursue child custody through thai courts?

Mother would definitely consent to have me added as a custodian, possibly even the sole custodian. But I'm not sure if it's worth the hassle of filing, appearing, having things notarized, translated, unavoidable hiccups/bureaucrocy along the way, paying, bribery etc.

What could happen down the road in either country where I would actually have to furnish custody papers? I've painfully accumulated file folders of papers that I thought would be required to take Son to America. In the end, all he needed was a US passport. Is it simply a matter of "better safe than sorry"? Any thoughts appreciated.

Many thanks,

Scott

[SweatiePie]

"Down the road" all depends on what his mother decides to do, if anything.

If his mother has sole legal custody and you only have the right to "travel internationally" with him by her Power of Attorney she can revoke this at any time. Whatever his education is at the time or passports he holds the US would be obliged to honour any request she could make through the Thai courts to have him returned to her custody as a minor. Sole legal custody means what it says - she has sole legal custody and you have no custodial rights whatsoever.

Its a very simple process and if you don't do it because you can't be bothered with the "hassle" then you don't deserve to have custody.

Just my "thoughts"!

[aland2012]

Its a very simple process and if you don't do it because you can't be bothered with the "hassle" then you don't deserve to have custody.

Good point, if you don't try to sort this out now, you don't know what the future brings, you just might wish you had done it, its only "hassel" at the time, when completed and its all done, your me over the moon.

Alan

[scottydel]

Thanks for the replies, good ponts.

Its a very simple process and if you don't do it because you can't be bothered

with the "hassle" then you don't deserve to have custody.

Have you done it? How simple is it?

Edited April 30, 2011 by scottydel

[7by7]

Moved to Family and children forum.

[InterestedObserver]

Since you never married the mother or legalized the birth of your son in Thailand, the mother has automatic sole custody by Thai law. The mother could, while the child is still a minor, make all sorts of trouble for you through the Thai courts.

Edited April 30, 2011 by InterestedObserver

[Nawtier]

Do it now while she agrees to it all on a friendly basis....never know what might happen down the track.

and because of what the post above says.

[Mario2008]

legalisation through the Thai courts is a simple process if he mother agrees. If the child is 7 years or older it can be done at the amphur, free of charge. Both mother and child must agree to this.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/381917-how-to-gain-parental-rights-as-a-father/

For sole custody you might have to go through the court, not sure about that one.

[gregb]

Thanks for the replies, good ponts.

Its a very simple process and if you don't do it because you can't be bothered

with the "hassle" then you don't deserve to have custody.

Have you done it? How simple is it?

It is actually trivial. It will require 2 appearances on 2 different days for the 3 of you in the ampur where the baby is resident on the house papers. The court appearance will take about 15 minutes once you actually get before the judge. You may have to wait all day until your case is called. All 3 of you, the mother, the father and the baby need to be present. The proceedings will be in Thai. It helps if you speak a little.

30 days later, all 3 of you will need to appear at the ampur in order to affect the legalization. You'll then get the paper that says you are the legal father.

It usually takes around 2-3 months to get the initial court date and then another month before you can register. A lawyer will charge about 30,000 baht for the service. It is only a minor hassle. This is your son you are talking about. Even if you have to fly twice from the states to complete the proceedings it is still relatively painless given what is at stake.

[Arkady]

Do it while the mother is still cooperative, however difficult or costly it may seem. If you wait until she ceases to be cooperative, it will cost you a lot more, if it is even possible. You didn't marry the boy's mother (probably for good reasons) and have left her to her own devices in Thailand. What happens, if she marries another farang with money who wants to help her get her son back? Currently you have absolutely no rights to permanent custody whatsoever and it would be an open and shut case in her favour. You owe it to your son, to safeguard his right to have an uninterrupted childhood and education in the States, since that is the path you have chosen for him. Don't take the risk that he might suddenly become a chess piece in an adult game.

[SweatiePie]

Have you done it? How simple is it?

No I haven't done it, because I am gay and childless (!), but I am also Thai and a lawyer so I can confirm that what has been said by others above about it being a simple process is correct and I would second their encouragement to do it now while his mother is still agreeable (and free); things can change very quickly.

.......... and 30,000 baht for handling an unopposed change in custody by an average lawyer is expensive, although considerably less than his mother could ask you for later; 10,000 should be a reasonable fee (and sorry, I don't handle these type of cases!).

[scottydel]

Since you never married the mother or legalized the birth of your son in Thailand, the mother has automatic sole custody by Thai law. The mother could, while the child is still a minor, make all sorts of trouble for you through the Thai courts.

True I did not marry the mother. But what do you mean by I never "legalized the birth of my son"?

[scottydel]

Have you done it? How simple is it?

No I haven't done it, because I am gay and childless (!), but I am also Thai and a lawyer so I can confirm that what has been said by others above about it being a simple process is correct and I would second their encouragement to do it now while his mother is still agreeable (and free); things can change very quickly.

.......... and 30,000 baht for handling an unopposed change in custody by an average lawyer is expensive, although considerably less than his mother could ask you for later; 10,000 should be a reasonable fee (and sorry, I don't handle these type of cases!).

Ha Ha...understood Thanks for your thoughts.

Since you're a Thai lawyer maybe you can help me understand. First, I need to go to my local amphur and "legalize my son's birth" and obtain a document that states I am the father. Second, I need to go to court and request I be added as a custodian of my son. Question: I have already been to my local amphur a few times to add my name to his Thai birth certficiate. Is this equivalent to "legalizing my son's birth", or on top of that do I need another document?

I spoke to a lawyer about this a couple years ago when I was batting the idea around, and his quote was under 9,000 baht, so you're right on the money.

Thanks!

[Mario2008]

Since you never married the mother or legalized the birth of your son in Thailand, the mother has automatic sole custody by Thai law. The mother could, while the child is still a minor, make all sorts of trouble for you through the Thai courts.

True I did not marry the mother. But what do you mean by I never "legalized the birth of my son"?

Legitimized means that you never recognised the child as being yours before the law and as such became the father of the child in a legal sense. Since the child was born in Thailand, it has to be done by Thai law.

[Nawtier]

Have you done it? How simple is it?

No I haven't done it, because I am gay and childless (!), but I am also Thai and a lawyer so I can confirm that what has been said by others above about it being a simple process is correct and I would second their encouragement to do it now while his mother is still agreeable (and free); things can change very quickly.

.......... and 30,000 baht for handling an unopposed change in custody by an average lawyer is expensive, although considerably less than his mother could ask you for later; 10,000 should be a reasonable fee (and sorry, I don't handle these type of cases!).

How about an unaverage lawyer ??

So what kind of law do you deal with SP ?? PM if you do not wish to be inundated with work.

[scottydel]

Since you never married the mother or legalized the birth of your son in Thailand, the mother has automatic sole custody by Thai law. The mother could, while the child is still a minor, make all sorts of trouble for you through the Thai courts.

True I did not marry the mother. But what do you mean by I never "legalized the birth of my son"?

Legitimized means that you never recognised the child as being yours before the law and as such became the father of the child in a legal sense. Since the child was born in Thailand, it has to be done by Thai law.

Thanks Mario. My son's mother is from a small village and is quite unfamiliar with all of the legalities of having a child, as am I too! Do you know the phonetic spelling of legalization or legitmizing my son's birth? If we strolled into the local amphur what could I mutter that someone would understand what we're after? I speak enough Thai to "get around", but this is beyond me, and my local amphur loves to be as unhelpful as they can! i.e. I learned that birth certificate is "pbai gurt", is there a term that describes the process of legalizing my son's birth under the law?

Many Thanks.

[gregb]

Have you done it? How simple is it?

No I haven't done it, because I am gay and childless (!), but I am also Thai and a lawyer so I can confirm that what has been said by others above about it being a simple process is correct and I would second their encouragement to do it now while his mother is still agreeable (and free); things can change very quickly.

.......... and 30,000 baht for handling an unopposed change in custody by an average lawyer is expensive, although considerably less than his mother could ask you for later; 10,000 should be a reasonable fee (and sorry, I don't handle these type of cases!).

Ha Ha...understood Thanks for your thoughts.

Since you're a Thai lawyer maybe you can help me understand. First, I need to go to my local amphur and "legalize my son's birth" and obtain a document that states I am the father. Second, I need to go to court and request I be added as a custodian of my son. Question: I have already been to my local amphur a few times to add my name to his Thai birth certficiate. Is this equivalent to "legalizing my son's birth", or on top of that do I need another document?

I spoke to a lawyer about this a couple years ago when I was batting the idea around, and his quote was under 9,000 baht, so you're right on the money.

Thanks!

You have this backwards. The reason for the court appearance is that your 4 year old son is not yet old enough to give his consent that you are his true father. If your son was 7, then you could skip the court appearance entirely. As soon as you have the document from the ampur you will be considered his legal custodian under Thai law.

There have been isolated incidents in the past where the ampur was willing to accept the child's statement and finger print in lieu of signature as early as 3 years of age, but this is highly unusual, and it is becoming less and less common today. So you can try going there directly and saving some time and money, but don't be surprised when they tell you to go to court first.

So you need to go to court, and get a judge to authorize the ampur to record you as the legal father without your child's permission.

Adding your name to the child's birth certificate is not the same as legalizing. Legalizing means either marrying the mother (in which case you have either a current marriage certificate or divorce certificate to prove your rights to your child) or else using the method above to obtain a "dtor ror 11" from the ampur. This is the document used in Thai law to show you are the real father and get extensions of stay on your visa, dependent deductions on your taxes, etc.

A unmarried Thai woman can name any man she wants as the father on the birth certificate. There are no checks done, so it doesn't mean much in Thailand. The legalization process is the method by which you prove you actually are the father. The flip side to this is that if an ill intentioned Thai woman tries to name you as her baby's father on the birth certificate instead of the real father to extort money, she won't get anywhere. You have no responsibilities towards the child until you have gone through the legalization process at the ampur.

While the legalization law may seem unnecessary, it is actually there to protect you as much as it is to hinder you.

Edited May 2, 2011 by gregb

[SweatiePie]

Since you're a Thai lawyer maybe you can help me understand. First, I need to go to my local amphur and "legalize my son's birth" and obtain a document that states I am the father. Second, I need to go to court and request I be added as a custodian of my son. Question: I have already been to my local amphur a few times to add my name to his Thai birth certficiate. Is this equivalent to "legalizing my son's birth", or on top of that do I need another document?

I spoke to a lawyer about this a couple years ago when I was batting the idea around, and his quote was under 9,000 baht, so you're right on the money.

Keep it simple, Caledoni!.

If the lawyer you saw previously asked for 9,000 baht then go back to see him and get him to do the entire process for you. If your wife doesn't know the legalities and your own Thai is only good enough to "get around", particularly with an "unhelpful" amphur, then you will find yourself going round in ever decreasing circles.

All the information here is correct in isolation but the problem is that a lot can be lost or added in translation and there is often confusion between, for example, registering, legalizing and legitimizing a birth. I have never come across an illegal birth, and some which are registered 100% correctly can be legitimate or illegitimate! .

It is quite possible for a birth to be registered but for there to be no birth certificate (though it is becoming more unusual) just as it is possible for the "real" or "true" father not to be the father named on the birth certificate or the register of births at the amphur, or for neither the "real" father or the registered father (who may or may not be the same) to have legal custody.

Basically, as long as the mother and you confirm that you are the father and she agrees to your having joint custody (or even sole custody, if you prefer) then things are simple - if she's happy with that now then make the most of it before she changes her mind. That may not happen, but for the sake of a little time and expense now its not really worth taking that risk.

How about an unaverage lawyer ??

So what kind of law do you deal with SP ?? PM if you do not wish to be inundated with work.

"unaverage"?? There's lots of them about (trained and untrained) - anything from free to exorbitant. Neither is any indication of quality so maybe "reasonable" would have been more appropriate.

I am primarily involved in human rights cases which interest me here and abroad, which I do pro bono, and with international corporate law which I have no interest in but for which I charge outrageous fees to cover my considerable expenses elsewhere. Anything else usually gets ignored and goes in the bin.

[scottydel]

gregb and sweatiepie thanx for the replies! things are finally starting to clear up in this head of mine as to what needs to be done.

here is another helpful link regarding child custody: http://www.thailawonline.com/en/family/children/custody-of-a-child-thailand.html

[nontabury]

very easy for you to be registered as the father,i did it a couple of years ago,got a dna done then went to the court with the help of ISAAN LAWYERS,your chances of obtaining sole custody are very slim

unless the mother agrees,what you should be able to obtain is joint custody with the child living with you.