NATO airstrike kills Gaddafi's son, grandchildren

[OzMick]

We are talking about Libya here. A Country that has been involved in terrorism since the year dot. How can you be so sympathetic? Think about the 200+ people that were mercilessly blown out of the sky on Pan Am flight 103. What about their families?

Sorry but I am not speaking about Libya here I am speaking about the loss of human life.

Yes I would also be sympathetic towards folks on a flight or folks needlessly killed by unprovoked attacks anywhere

This eye for an eye mentality that you exhibit will leave the whole world blind....if not already blinded judging by recent events.

Do you think these sort of events make you safer? If so let me say I think the opposite

Your sanctity of human life concept is a recent western creation, probably caused by an excess of religion, and is not shared by many others in the world, or your own antecedents (think Inquisition, crusades, witch trials). When those who think it is quite justifiable to kill others to achieve their goals suffer the same fate, it it ludicrous to whine about it using standards that the deceased did not adhere to.

It sometimes amazes/amuses me that the most fervently christian nation is also the most militarily active. Does their bible have amendments to "Thou shall not kill"?

[flying]

All this talk about *legitimate targets*....... One has to wonder

So this enforcement of a NO FLY zone.....It has been expanded to a war?

Declared or assumed?

Does the NATO forces now openly side with the rebels/Al-Qaeda then?

It would appear so......

There are no legitimate targets in this propping up/aiding of the next great puppet regime

Edited May 1, 2011 by flying

[bangkokrick]

If Gadaffi thought so much about his people and humanity he should have accepted the ceasefire and gone down the negotiation route. He did not do this so this is the result and he is responsible for his actions. Me feeling safer has nothing to do with it, but I am glad that the West is at last 'showing it's teeth' instead of living in fear of these random terrorist attacks. 911, London and Madrid train bombs etc. Maybe not planned by Gadaffi, but we never know do we.

The strike that Libya said had killed Saif al-Arab Gaddafi came less than a day after a speech by his father was broadcast on state TV, in which Col Gaddafi called for a ceasefire and negotiations.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...africa-13251570

Sure, but he has said this before and has ordered his forces to attack the rebels and civilians.

[bangkokrick]

All this talk about *legitimate targets*....... One has to wonder

So this enforcement of a NO FLY zone.....It has been expanded to a war?

Declared or assumed?

Does the NATO forces now openly side with the rebels/Al-Qaeda then?

It would appear so......

There are no legitimate targets in this propping up/aiding of the next great puppet regime

So you think that Gadaffi should remain in power then? It's quite amusing that you avatar boasts freedom and you seem to want to deny freedom to the Libyan people.

[flying]

So you think that Gadaffi should remain in power then? It's quite amusing that you avatar boasts freedom and you seem to want to deny freedom to the Libyan people.

Yes I boast Freedom

But the freedom of Libya is not mine to decide ...nor yours....nor NATO,USA,France or anyone else but the Libyans

Where shall you go next to decide the freedom of those you do not know? Will you then stay & enforce it for the lifetime?

I do not know where you are from but back here in the USA we are spiraling down the drain of debt & facing worldwide default. Caused in large part by these policing actions that is none of our business.

[blackthorn2005]

....RIP.....

Regardless of who the parents are

I cannot imagine what it is like to lose children.

[/quote

Gaddafi should have thought of that when he was sponsoring the IRA to blow up innocents in Northern Ireland and England, also when he got involved in the Pan Am bombing over Lockerbie. Eye for an eye. I hope he is next

[bangkokeddy]

... Saif was a legitimate target because he was actively involved in waging war on the Libyan people.. If the Gaddaffis wished to surround themselves with their families in the hopes that this would shield them form the airstrikes, then they miscalculated. it is the Gaddaffis that brought their own family member's deaths by using human shields.

The event reminds me of the film Downfall. The film segments are available on Youtube.

The NATO don't practice your Bomb away! fantasies, at least not officially. NATO do not target individual and regret all loss of life. they said.

Nothing of your 'Gotcha' and 'Right so!' rhetoric. How comes?

-------

NATO says airstrikes not targeting Gaddafi

...

"NATO continued its precision strikes against (Gaddafi) regime military installations in Tripoli overnight, including striking a known command and control building in the Bab al-Azizya neighbourhood shortly after 1800 GMT Saturday evening," it said. NATO's commander of Libya operations, Canadian Lieutenant-General Charles Bouchard, said the target was part of a strategy to hit Gaddafi's command centres that threaten civilians.

"All NATO's targets are military in nature ... We do not target individuals," he said in a statement.

"I am aware of unconfirmed media reports that some of Gaddafi's family members may have been killed," he said. "We regret all loss of life."

http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFLDE73T0CW20110501

------------

Some arguments how to justify killings reminds me somehow on the way of thought and the ideology of the subjects in the film Downfall. The film segments are available on Youtube.

[bangkokrick]

So you think that Gadaffi should remain in power then? It's quite amusing that you avatar boasts freedom and you seem to want to deny freedom to the Libyan people.

Yes I boast Freedom

But the freedom of Libya is not mine to decide ...nor yours....nor NATO,USA,France or anyone else but the Libyans

Where shall you go next to decide the freedom of those you do not know? Will you then stay & enforce it for the lifetime?

I do not know where you are from but back here in the USA we are spiraling down the drain of debt & facing worldwide default. Caused in large part by these policing actions that is none of our business.

Gadaffi is a tyrant and has ruled Libya through fear since his coming to power. He was not elected, but came to power by a military coup, so hardly a democratic decision. His people have asked NATO for help and NATO has obliged initially led by the US it seems. I agree on one thing and that is your comment about the US, sad really.

[bangkokeddy]

We are talking about Libya here. A Country that has been involved in terrorism since the year dot. How can you be so sympathetic? Think about the 200+ people that were mercilessly blown out of the sky on Pan Am flight 103. What about their families?

This is not what the No Fly zone is about.

But at least you don't try to pretend that you would somehow care about the Libyan people.

[flying]

Gadaffi is a tyrant and has ruled Libya through fear since his coming to power. He was not elected, but came to power by a military coup, so hardly a democratic decision. His people have asked NATO for help and NATO has obliged initially led by the US it seems. I agree on one thing and that is your comment about the US, sad really.

No argument that he is a tyrant & a certifiable nut job.

But I will not go so far as to say his people have asked for NATO

I will say the Libyan rebels asked for help & got it.

If it were the Libyan people the fight would have been over before it started. In that respect I would say the majority of Libyan

people have in fact voted for him. It is a civil war & in that respect none other than Libyans should have a say in it.

We are in agreement about the current state of affairs in the US economy.

Edited May 1, 2011 by flying

[bangkokrick]

Gadaffi is a tyrant and has ruled Libya through fear since his coming to power. He was not elected, but came to power by a military coup, so hardly a democratic decision. His people have asked NATO for help and NATO has obliged initially led by the US it seems. I agree on one thing and that is your comment about the US, sad really.

No argument that he is a tyrant & a certifiable nut job.

But I will not go so far as to say his people have asked for NATO

I will say the Libyan rebels asked for help & got it.

If it were the Libyan people the fight would have been over before it started. In that respect I would say the majority of Libyan

people have in fact voted for him. It is a civil war & in that respect none other than Libyans should have a say in it.

We are in agreement about the current state of affairs in the US economy.

How can the Libyan people decide their own fate when Gadaffi comes out with statements like this. 'Execution is the fate of anyone who forms a political party'. Sounds like a pretty fair guy to me!

[bangkokrick]

We are talking about Libya here. A Country that has been involved in terrorism since the year dot. How can you be so sympathetic? Think about the 200+ people that were mercilessly blown out of the sky on Pan Am flight 103. What about their families?

This is not what the No Fly zone is about.

But at least you don't try to pretend that you would somehow care about the Libyan people.

I believe that the Libyan people deserve freedom. How may Libyan people has Gadaffi been responsible for killing.

[flying]

How can the Libyan people decide their own fate when Gadaffi comes out with statements like this. 'Execution is the fate of anyone who forms a political party'. Sounds like a pretty fair guy to me!

The US was founded on the same strength to stand up to tyranny.

Again it is not anyone's fight but theirs.

If not where to next? Syria? Iran? Yemen?

Do you suppose this extinguishes the flames in the Middle East or fans them?

Actually the issue is moot given the 14 trillion + of debt that now threatens to swallow us.

We will have to agree to disagree

Take care

[ableguy]

It is about time America becomes responsible for its crimes against the rest of the world.

Britaney Spears.

Michael Jackson.

The world financial crash.

Mac Donalds.

the list goes on.

Brirish crimes against humanity

Slavery blacks to USA

Colonisation India Africa

English cooking

Warm beer

Ireland

The list goes on.

[Scott]

Let's stick to the topic. Further off-topic comments will be deleted. We don't want the topic to stray too far.

[geriatrickid]

A no fly zone includes the elimination of command and control centers that would prevent the implementation of a the fly zone.

The Gaddaffi compound was a base of operations from which measures were taken to prevent the no fly zone from being maintained. It was a bonafide military target. Nothing except the Gaddaffi's own decisions kept the families from leaving what was a defacto military headquarters.

The handwring and laments being puked up here are just political sloganeering. The people that died were part of an apparatus of oppression and suppression. The Gaddaffi family has blood on its hands. The children were effectively condemned to death by their parents. This is how despotic regimes end.

[bangkokrick]

A no fly zone includes the elimination of command and control centers that would prevent the implementation of a the fly zone.

The Gaddaffi compound was a base of operations from which measures were taken to prevent the no fly zone from being maintained. It was a bonafide military target. Nothing except the Gaddaffi's own decisions kept the families from leaving what was a defacto military headquarters.

The handwring and laments being puked up here are just political sloganeering. The people that died were part of an apparatus of oppression and suppression. The Gaddaffi family has blood on its hands. The children were effectively condemned to death by their parents. This is how despotic regimes end.

Agree on all counts.

[RKASA]

We are talking about Libya here. A Country that has been involved in terrorism since the year dot. How can you be so sympathetic? Think about the 200+ people that were mercilessly blown out of the sky on Pan Am flight 103. What about their families?

Sorry but I am not speaking about Libya here I am speaking about the loss of human life.

Yes I would also be sympathetic towards folks on a flight or folks needlessly killed by unprovoked attacks anywhere

This eye for an eye mentality that you exhibit will leave the whole world blind....if not already blinded judging by recent events.

Do you think these sort of events make you safer? If so let me say I think the opposite

Your sanctity of human life concept is a recent western creation, probably caused by an excess of religion, and is not shared by many others in the world, or your own antecedents (think Inquisition, crusades, witch trials). When those who think it is quite justifiable to kill others to achieve their goals suffer the same fate, it it ludicrous to whine about it using standards that the deceased did not adhere to.

It sometimes amazes/amuses me that the most fervently christian nation is also the most militarily active. Does their bible have amendments to "Thou shall not kill"?

No that is in the constitution under separation of church and state. :jap: The biggest mistake is thinking war in moderation is realistic - it leads to longer term suffering and less likely outcomes.

[OzMick]

We are talking about Libya here. A Country that has been involved in terrorism since the year dot. How can you be so sympathetic? Think about the 200+ people that were mercilessly blown out of the sky on Pan Am flight 103. What about their families?

Sorry but I am not speaking about Libya here I am speaking about the loss of human life.

Yes I would also be sympathetic towards folks on a flight or folks needlessly killed by unprovoked attacks anywhere

This eye for an eye mentality that you exhibit will leave the whole world blind....if not already blinded judging by recent events.

Do you think these sort of events make you safer? If so let me say I think the opposite

Your sanctity of human life concept is a recent western creation, probably caused by an excess of religion, and is not shared by many others in the world, or your own antecedents (think Inquisition, crusades, witch trials). When those who think it is quite justifiable to kill others to achieve their goals suffer the same fate, it it ludicrous to whine about it using standards that the deceased did not adhere to.

It sometimes amazes/amuses me that the most fervently christian nation is also the most militarily active. Does their bible have amendments to "Thou shall not kill"?

No that is in the constitution under separation of church and state. :jap: The biggest mistake is thinking war in moderation is realistic - it leads to longer term suffering and less likely outcomes.

Separation doesn't explain the professed religious beliefs of those joining the forces, nor the strongly religious groups within which have caused some muslims to see a "New Crusade".

And I am certainly not a "war moderate." I believe that Gaddafi (and any enemy leader) should be personally targetted along with anyone within 50m - but that is not the position of most western leaders who fear for their own arse. Quite happy to send others to war, but don't want it getting too personal.

[koheesti]

This eye for an eye mentality that you exhibit will leave the whole world blind

That makes a nice bumper sticker but the fact is, he who pokes first will blind the other guy first so he won't be able to blind the other guy.

[flying]

This eye for an eye mentality that you exhibit will leave the whole world blind

That makes a nice bumper sticker but the fact is, he who pokes first will blind the other guy first so he won't be able to blind the other guy.

Seems you have not heard the expression before?

I guess your thinking someone can blind all of them at once without ever suffering any losses themselves

[EnSvenskTiger]

The only good outcome of this crime is that it will break up Nato. Who in EU can sand behind murder of childen?

No fly zone?

Tiger

[PoorSucker]

Members of the opposition centered in Benghazi have speculated that the Libyan government's claim of Saif al-Arab's death was a tactic to gain sympathy.

Abdul Hafez Goga spokesperson for the Transitional National Council said he thinks it could all be fabrication:

"Back in 1986, Gaddafi once claimed that Ronald Reagan, then US president, had launched a strike on his compound in Tripoli and killed his daughter. Many journalists since then dug around and found out that the actual child that had died had nothing to do with Gaddafi, that he sort of adopted her posthumously"

[transam]

The west has been waiting for an opening to take this action to solve the stuff that Gaddafi has been involved in over the years, WHICH has cost the lives of many innocent folk in the UK and Ireland, and of course the world over, including Libya.

Different l know but many lives were lost to quash a tyrant 60 years ago to make the world a safer place.

[geriatrickid]

The only good outcome of this crime is that it will break up Nato. Who in EU can sand behind murder of childen?

No fly zone?

Tiger

There was no crime. The military compound was a legitimate target.

You make a definitive claim that the bombing of a military command and control center will break up Nato. On what basis do you make that statement aside from your own personal political views?

I really don't think the typical citizen in the EU cares about the fate of the Gaddaffi clan, nor will anyone save for the usual crackpots and extremists, be calling for the dissolution of Nato. I believe that you will find that the joint French and British operation will be applauded.

It was Saif Gaddaffi's decision to use his family as a "human shield". No one forced Saif Gaddaffi to keep his family in a military compound.He made the decision and the responsibility is his alone. Nato did murder any children. The children were located in a military target and were casualties of the Gaddaffi decision to wage war on the Libyan population.

The Libyans that were killed were in a military target. The target had been targeted repeatedly. The previous targeting of the Gaddaffi military headquarters would have been a wake up call to a rational person that it was not appropriate place to shelter in. Nato provided advance warning to Gaddaffi that the compound would be targeted. If murder has been committed it is at the hands of the Gaddaffis. No one made Saif hide behind his family.

Edited May 1, 2011 by geriatrickid

[transam]

The only good outcome of this crime is that it will break up Nato. Who in EU can sand behind murder of childen?

No fly zone?

Tiger

There was no crime. The military compound was a legitimate target.

You make a definitive claim that the bombing of a military command and control center will break up Nato. On what basis do you make that statement aside from your own personal political views?

I really don't think the typical citizen in the EU cares about the fate of the Gaddaffi clan, nor will anyone save for the usual crackpots and extremists, be calling for the dissolution of Nato. I believe that you will find that the joint French and British operation will be applauded.

It was Saif Gaddaffi's decision to use his family as a "human shield". No one forced Saif Gaddaffi to keep his family in a military compound.He made the decision and the responsibility is his alone. Nato did murder any children. The children were located in a military target and were casualties of the Gaddaffi decision to wage war on the Libyan population.

The Libyans that were killed were in a military target. The target had been targeted repeatedly. The previous targeting of the Gaddaffi military headquarters would have been a wake up call to a rational person that it was not appropriate place to shelter in. Nato provided advance warning to Gaddaffi that the compound would be targeted. If murder has been committed it is at the hands of the Gaddaffis. No one made Saif hide behind his family.

I would go further to say that Gaddaffi would willingly sacrifice family to use against NATO or whoever.

[coma]

This is a war crime. I know for a fact that assassination attempts are not part of the UN resolution. NATO therefore are in breach of this resolution. They have deliberately attacked a target that they would have know well had innocent children and civilians sheltering in it. However thier urge to assassinate Ghadaffi got the better of them. They are indeed war criminals and the leaders of the organistation and the member countires that carried out or assisted in this particular attack should be charge accordingly. Innocent children were delibaeratly targeted. Regardless of who is thier Grandfather. They were innocent young children.

[OzMick]

This is a war crime. I know for a fact that assassination attempts are not part of the UN resolution. NATO therefore are in breach of this resolution. They have deliberately attacked a target that they would have know well had innocent children and civilians sheltering in it. However thier urge to assassinate Ghadaffi got the better of them. They are indeed war criminals and the leaders of the organistation and the member countires that carried out or assisted in this particular attack should be charge accordingly. Innocent children were delibaeratly targeted. Regardless of who is thier Grandfather. They were innocent young children.

Tripe!

[Wallaby]

The only good outcome of this crime is that it will break up Nato. Who in EU can sand behind murder of childen?

No fly zone?

Tiger

There was no crime. The military compound was a legitimate target.

You make a definitive claim that the bombing of a military command and control center will break up Nato. On what basis do you make that statement aside from your own personal political views?

I really don't think the typical citizen in the EU cares about the fate of the Gaddaffi clan, nor will anyone save for the usual crackpots and extremists, be calling for the dissolution of Nato. I believe that you will find that the joint French and British operation will be applauded.

It was Saif Gaddaffi's decision to use his family as a "human shield". No one forced Saif Gaddaffi to keep his family in a military compound.He made the decision and the responsibility is his alone. Nato did murder any children. The children were located in a military target and were casualties of the Gaddaffi decision to wage war on the Libyan population.

The Libyans that were killed were in a military target. The target had been targeted repeatedly. The previous targeting of the Gaddaffi military headquarters would have been a wake up call to a rational person that it was not appropriate place to shelter in. Nato provided advance warning to Gaddaffi that the compound would be targeted. If murder has been committed it is at the hands of the Gaddaffis. No one made Saif hide behind his family.

If Gadaffi was sleeping under a banana tree with his children then NATO would bomb it and claim it was a military target simply by the fact Gadaffi was there.

I'm sure if I was in the same position as him I would want my family with me in what I would consider a compound safe from rebel attack.

Gadaffi killing civilians? What do you think is happening in Iraq and Afghanistan, the same thing. These are unusual circumstances where the enemy is not easily identified. Do you think the rebels are all squeaky clean about this?

If the Libyan people want change then why are the rebels finding it so difficult to make inroads, one would think they would have millions of followers keenly taking up arms and fighting.

I can only wish Libya good luck after the west has yet again forced their another country into regime change. Who knows what the hell they will end up with. Better the devil you know.

[geriatrickid]

This is a war crime. I know for a fact that assassination attempts are not part of the UN resolution. NATO therefore are in breach of this resolution. They have deliberately attacked a target that they would have know well had innocent children and civilians sheltering in it. However thier urge to assassinate Ghadaffi got the better of them. They are indeed war criminals and the leaders of the organistation and the member countires that carried out or assisted in this particular attack should be charge accordingly. Innocent children were delibaeratly targeted. Regardless of who is thier Grandfather. They were innocent young children.

You make the claim that the bombing of a military command center was a war crime. Why? What evidence do you have?

On one hand we have the legal experts that review and vet targets vs. your politically motivated opinion.

Nato made clear in advance the compound was a target. It gave prior warnings.

Innocent civilians sheltering? No. There was no need for "innocent" civilians to shelter in the Gaddaffi military compound. No one in that compound was innocent. They are all Gaddaffi loyalists seeking to to kill and maim as many people as they can. Anyone in a military facility used to block the no fly provisions of the UN mandate became a legitimate target. If some of the Gaddaffi progeny met an untimely demise, take it up with Saif and his wife and ask them why they put their children smack dab in the heart of a military target. You might want to read up on war crimes and other details before making accusations.