Alcoholism

[likerdup1]

I hope you don't take my correction to hard or the wrong way. IMHO too much incorrect information is floating around out there about AA and that's in part why people like Mobi don't think it works.

likerdup1, with the greatest respect, whatever criticisms I may have levelled at AA and however 'questionable' my personal experiences may have been, I have never once said that I do not believe that AA works.

Excuse me, yes actually shortly after I hit the post button I realized that through reading your posts that what I wrote was incorrect. Probably much better to say that many people think it doesn't work. Not you individually.

Please accept my apology.

~likerdup1 (not anymore)

[Mobi]

I hope you don't take my correction to hard or the wrong way. IMHO too much incorrect information is floating around out there about AA and that's in part why people like Mobi don't think it works.

likerdup1, with the greatest respect, whatever criticisms I may have levelled at AA and however 'questionable' my personal experiences may have been, I have never once said that I do not believe that AA works.

Excuse me, yes actually shortly after I hit the post button I realized that through reading your posts that what I wrote was incorrect. Probably much better to say that many people think it doesn't work. Not you individually.

Please accept my apology.

~likerdup1 (not anymore)

Thank you likerdup1, apology accepted. No sweat

[saraburioz]

To summarise, as I see it, anyone who is seeking help in achieving long tern sobriety, should, in the first instance, seek the assistance of the AA. If The AA programme works for them and they are able to work the 12 steps and become, sober, happy, joyous and free members of society, then good luck to them.

If however, having tried the AA approach, and for whatever reason, have failed in their quest, then they should not be despondent, as we now know that there are alternative ways to become and stay sober, including, but not limited to ‘going it alone’. And of course, they can always go back to AA at some future date, if other methods also fail to supply the solution.

There! Is that fair enough my friends?

Not really. i am thinkiing of quitting the booze soon. i have a few friend in AA who are happy, joyous and free but like you am looking at alternatives as I don't really want to give up for good. Are you saying that AA is the best way to go? I sense that you feel there are better ways. if so, why advise AA? I am confused. Do you think alcoholism is a disease? If not, as i suspect youfrom quoting Stanton peellle, why reciommend a group that says it is a disease.

also, do you really think you are qualified to give advice on long-term sobriety?

i wish you luck in your sobriety.

[kerryk]

The thread started out as a quest to find answers to the questions, 1. Is alcoholism a disease and 2. Can God cure alcoholism.

I stated a couple of days ago that I thought it only a matter of time before Mobi would bring out the anti AA propaganda because of his dislike for AA as a whole.

In post number #270 Mobi has posted a 488 word quote from the anti AA book, “AA Cult or Cure” and references to that book.

I added up Mobi's anti AA text in post #270 and it comes to 988 words. Then I added up Mobi's positive AA text, 52 words.

In Mobi's positive AA text he mentions going to meetings and working the steps briefly but in reviewing his anti AA text he mentions no methods of staying sober.

In Mobi's 988 words of anti AA text he mentions nothing about Thailand.

In Mobi's 988 words of anti AA text he offers no alternatives to meetings and the 12 step program.

In Mobi's 988 words of anti AA text he does not quote any ideas on how to stay sober from the book he is quoting.

Mobi's post #270 offers no actionable alternatives besides AA for staying sober.

I don't have any problem with anyone writing about alternatives to AA provided they give some kind of information about the alternative programs so one can judge the difference.

I think a quantitative analysis of post #270 will reveal about a 95% anti AA mindset. I don't think any rational person can read post #270 and have any doubt that Mobi is staunchly anti AA.

I am staunchly pro AA as are many posters in this thread with long term sobriety. I admit it and I am not ashamed to admit it. I think it is only fair to say that Mobi is staunchly anti AA. I don't have any problem with Mobi being anti AA. I don't think this forum is the place to have a pro and anti AA discussion/debate but that is only my opinion.

[likerdup1]

I added up Mobi's anti AA text in post #270 and it comes to 988 words. Then I added up Mobi's positive AA text, 52 words.

In Mobi's positive AA text he mentions going to meetings and working the steps briefly but in reviewing his anti AA text he mentions no methods of staying sober.

In Mobi's 988 words of anti AA text he mentions nothing about Thailand.

In Mobi's 988 words of anti AA text he offers no alternatives to meetings and the 12 step program.

In Mobi's 988 words of anti AA text he does not quote any ideas on how to stay sober from the book he is quoting.

Mobi's post #270 offers no actionable alternatives besides AA for staying sober.

Thank you, glad somebody else has put into words what I had been feeling about this. This kind of rhetoric where one says they are not criticizing AA but then in a round about way do just that. Citing studies about poor efficacy rates and quoting anti AA literature and then "urging" alcoholics to go. Making "observations" about AA people but in a poor light.

Stating there are alternatives but offering none except "go it alone" which all AA's know is ultimately futile for most real alcoholics. We alcoholics are not the most well adjusted bulbs in the pack. Some of us are more spiritually fit then others. Of course these are just my observations. :jap:

[Patsycat]

Supposedly, if you are a real, hard core alcoholic. You also need certain drugs to overcome your cravings. If not, you could die. Like cold turkey with drugs.

Did you guys have to take medication before/during or after your first few AA meetings? I cannot believe that you just walked into an AA meeting without other help.

Antabus, anti depressants etc. come to mind. I went to a clinic here, not affiliated to AA, and they offered me a whole cocktail of drugs to help calm me, sleep, eat. Archaic is not the word. Two years before I had just, on my own, got over cocaine and did not want any of that in my system.

And the people i saw there were like zombies, eyes out on pinheads, bad skin, smelly.

And the counsellours - what?!! They did not listen at all.

I never went back.

Mobi knows about that horrific experience..

[Patsycat]

Life is so uppy downy sometimes, eh?

Just as a joke i was going to post a photo of a pile my clothes lying on the floor "Enraptered" with the fag still smoking and the wine glass toppled over and the cat sitting on my chest!!!

But thought differently!!

[GrahamF]

Supposedly, if you are a real, hard core alcoholic. You also need certain drugs to overcome your cravings. If not, you could die. Like cold turkey with drugs.

Did you guys have to take medication before/during or after your first few AA meetings? I cannot believe that you just walked into an AA meeting without other help.

Antabus, anti depressants etc. come to mind. I went to a clinic here, not affiliated to AA, and they offered me a whole cocktail of drugs to help calm me, sleep, eat. Archaic is not the word. Two years before I had just, on my own, got over cocaine and did not want any of that in my system.

And the people i saw there were like zombies, eyes out on pinheads, bad skin, smelly.

And the counsellours - what?!! They did not listen at all.

I never went back.

Mobi knows about that horrific experience..

Patsy-

I checked myself into a Detox, upon the advice of a gentleman who answered the AA hotline. He pretty quickly determined that I was maintenance drinking, I got the shakes when sober, felt ill, elevated heart rate, all that fun stuff. He carefully explained to me that his brother had died whilst trying to detox by himself, and he stressed that I should go to the hospital and get into a detox (not affiliated with AA) before anything else. My friend took me to the hospital the next morning and they first admitted me to the emergency room, I hadn't had a drink in about 8-10 hours so I wasn't feeling too great. In the ER they did all the tests, blood, ekg, yada, yada, yada. They then gave me two Librium, which I believe is the standard medication that they give to Alcoholics trying to detox. They really helped! Don't quote me but I believe they told me that Librium binds to the same receptors as alcohol does, so your body is getting its "fix" but you don't get drunk. I stayed in the ER for about 3 hours and once my vitals were stabilized it was off to the detox. That evening they gave me a lower dose librium (1), thiamine (they told me that alcohol destroys thiamine in the body), an anti-anxiety medication, sorry but I don't remember the name of it, and trazodone for sleep. The next morning, I had the same meds, except the trazodone (which I took that night) and then I was off the librium and only took the anti-anxiety meds one more time that afternoon. The third day was just thiamine, although the anxiety meds and trazodone were available if I needed them. They also gave me a nicotine patch for the duration. My understanding is that Librium can be addictive and that is why they took me off of it so quickly, it did get me over the really crappy part though, even without it and possibly due to the anti-anxiety medicine I felt pretty good, even though I did have the shakes still, but not nearly as bad as they were. Myself and the other "inmates" made of game of seeing who was shaking the most and the least. I was in for 3.5 days and on release they prescribed Campral, which is a med that cuts down the craving for alcohol and trazodone for sleep. I took the trazodone for about a week and the campral for about 2-3 weeks.

Overall the detox was not bad. The staff were very caring and supportive. We did have a daily AA or NA meetings and there was one pseudo group therapy session while I was there. The food wasn't bad and you could order double portions and the fridge was always stocked with ice cream, popsicles and ginger ale. We had two tv's, but not a lot of reading material. Upon entrance, the staff takes everything you have with you and locks it up, and gives you gowns, underwear and slipper socks. You cannot bring in anything at all, and there are no visitors allowed while you are there, but you can make and receive phone calls. They are very strict about patients causing trouble, e.g. being belligerent or threatening, and will kick people out if they are. Obviously this does not mean someone who has just been admitted and is going through extreme withdrawal. Like I said, it was not too bad, just really really boring!

[GrahamF]

Life is so uppy downy sometimes, eh?

Just as a joke i was going to post a photo of a pile my clothes lying on the floor "Enraptered" with the fag still smoking and the wine glass toppled over and the cat sitting on my chest!!!

But thought differently!!

That would have given me a belly laugh, although it might not be TV appropriate. Please send it to me via PM!

[Patsycat]

shall do it.

Just for a wee laugh!!

Tomorrow - Saturday... wee weee

[Patsycat]

Why not TV appropriate?

I find it funny... And if i can get it done right it will be great...

I don't think the mods here are going to ban my dead clothes...

Now i've got to organize the alive dead cat...

Who hasn't been enraptured...

[kerryk]

I was drinking approximately 70 cans of beer per week when I stopped. I didn't go to a detox. When I stopped drinking I got the shakes a bit and did not sleep well. The doctor told me no meds until I was off alcohol for three days. He then prescribed sleeping and anti depressant medication. I stopped the medication after a couple of weeks. The first AA meeting I went to everyone was happy. I remember wondering how all those people could laugh and joke while not drinking. My first meeting in Thailand was in Pattaya. It was really international, members from all over the world. The Pattaya meeting was as happy too.

[Sheryl]

People who have a physical dependency on alcohol to the extent that abstaining produces severe physical withdrawal symptoms do indeed need medically supervised detox, often as inpatients. And yes, Thiamin and Librium are among the drugs used. And indeed this process needs to be overseen medic ally with great care both to avoid the serious medical complications which can occur and to also avoid creating physical dependency on any of the medications used.

Elsewhere in this sub-forum there is a thread about someone who did this in a hospital in Thailand.

When this is done in an ordinary hospital, usually the care is focused just in achieving the physical detox, with referral to a more comprehensive support program after that. Specialized detox clinics often offer both things together, and these vary greatly in their quality, fro excellent to awful. The place Patsy describes sounds unusually bad. Particularly the overuse of drugs...it sounds as if the people supervising this were not properly trained.

Not all drinkers require medically supervised detoxification. Some do not experience serious physical problems when they stop drinking (especially those whose drinking patterns did not involve daily heavy drinking, for example binge drinkers, weekend-only drunks etc). others experience only mild symptoms. But for those who do experience significant withdrawal, it is very dangerous to try to self-manage this and medical supervision is important. The "DTs" in addition to being agonizing can cause serious complications or even death. The good news is that with proper medical care the danger is minimal and it doesn't usually take all that long to get someone physically detoxed.

[trisailer]

I want to know, why all the fear? AA is clearly a program that works for a lot of people. Some of those folks are testifying to that fact. I am testifying to that fact. Truly millions are able to achieve and maintain sobriety through AA.

What we are not getting here is the testimony of the OTHER millions who achieved sobriety without AA. The science tells us that they are out there. I'm not afraid to acknowledge other choices.

Alcoholism is a disease, but it is a disease of the MIND. I wasn't an alcoholic when I was eight years old. I was a happy kid. I started using alcohol in the Army to escape from the boredom and fear. Fear is what brought most folks to alcoholism. Fear of failure in our careers, fear of dealing with our demons, fear, fear, fear.

When I said that AA is a safe harbor what I meant is that the dogma of AA keeps some people sober by attending meetings and being constantly reminded of their WEAKNESS. They FEAR being open to other ideas. There were old timers that I knew who avoided people, places and things because they were AFRAiD to test their core beliefs. OK, I have no problem with that if it keeps them sober.

For me I don't want to live a fear based life. I want to be attracted to my life and every day I find new and wonderful reasons to achieve that. A perfect demonstration of that is I was looking for scientific data to convince Mobi to commit to AA because I was, like some of you, convinced that AA WAS THE ONLY WAY. The science says otherwise. Mobi presented some of that science and it was completely ignored or attacked.

The facts remain. Many people stop drinking on their own. The 12 steps were created by man. The genesis of the program evolved from the minds of men. There exists many parallel paths that all lead to the same place. AA is a place to support folks to get stabilized and stop drinking, but it works by dogma. I found it limiting me in my quest to RE-BALANCE my life. The switch in my brain that got flipped and caused me to become dependent on substances needed to get switched back. AA had it's hand on the switch holding it for me for awhile and that's exactly what I needed then. Now I hold the switch. My higher power is me. I am not afraid of anything because I know what I am about. AA limited me after I had achieved two years I felt confined by AA.

I want to be free of fear to explore my world and not limit myself. There is no god. God is in each and every one of us. That's the reason why it doesn't matter what we choose as a higher power because it is and always was us. We are only taking back what was always ours.

If you give a man a fish you feed him for a day, but if you teach a man to fish you feed him for life.

After I moved to a new city I was fortunate to meet a guy who was a professional bass fisherman. He took me under his wing and we went out fishing every chance we got. He taught me how to catch them, but going out a catching a big one on my own was a most awesome experience.

In every study of people living by dogma the facts show that they actually do worse at making proper choices than people who know how to fish.

[likerdup1]

I added up Mobi's anti AA text in post #270 and it comes to 988 words. Then I added up Mobi's positive AA text, 52 words.

In Mobi's positive AA text he mentions going to meetings and working the steps briefly but in reviewing his anti AA text he mentions no methods of staying sober.

In Mobi's 988 words of anti AA text he mentions nothing about Thailand.

In Mobi's 988 words of anti AA text he offers no alternatives to meetings and the 12 step program.

In Mobi's 988 words of anti AA text he does not quote any ideas on how to stay sober from the book he is quoting.

Mobi's post #270 offers no actionable alternatives besides AA for staying sober.

Thank you, glad somebody else has put into words what I had been feeling about this. This kind of rhetoric where one says they are not criticizing AA but then in a round about way do just that. Citing studies about poor efficacy rates and quoting anti AA literature and then "urging" alcoholics to go. Making "observations" about AA people but in a poor light.

Stating there are alternatives but offering none except "go it alone" which all AA's know is ultimately futile for most real alcoholics. We alcoholics are not the most well adjusted bulbs in the pack. Some of us are more spiritually fit then others. Of course these are just my observations. :jap:

I wrote the above post in the morning after having coffee, I tend to get a bit "aggressive after that fist cup". I am trying to continue a spirtual journey and frankly after reading my post I don't feel good about it. I'm really wish to not disparage anyone or have harsh words. In fact having arguments with anti-AA'ers only fuels the fire as people can point and say, "these people proport to be spirtual but just listen and read what they say. Doesn't sound very spiritual to me. I should just live and let live. I need to let Mobi and anybody here on this forum understand that as an alcoholic my survival, sobriety and continued serenity depend on growing my spiritual condition just not in my thinking but in what I do and say. So, I'm going to take back what I say here with an apology to Mobi as I in a round about way put him down.

Live and Let Live, peace and serenity. Sorry.

[Sheryl]

.... I don't think this forum is the place to have a pro and anti AA discussion/debate but that is only my opinion.

Indeed it absolutely is not, and once again the thread is veering towards one.

Please everyone get back on track.

If you have a personal experience to offer, by all means offer it.

And respect those offered by others, even if they differ from what you experienced.

Theoretical debates and aggressive arguments will not be tolerated.

[kerryk]

I was drinking approximately 70 cans of beer per week when I stopped. I didn't go to a detox. When I stopped drinking I got the shakes a bit and did not sleep well. The doctor told me no meds until I was off alcohol for three days. He then prescribed sleeping and anti depressant medication. I stopped the medication after a couple of weeks. The first AA meeting I went to everyone was happy. I remember wondering how all those people could laugh and joke while not drinking. My first meeting in Thailand was in Pattaya. It was really international, members from all over the world. The Pattaya meeting was as happy too.

Add to my post. I think it is obvious I was under a doctors care when I stopped drinking. It was the doctor who suggested I stop drinking. I would have gone to a detox had he asked me to go but he didn't. I had few physical symptoms when I stopped other than sleeplessness and shaking. I mention this because I think it is a good idea to stop drinking while consulting a doctor who knows something about the problem. I also found it difficult to be honest with the doctor about the amount I was drinking. I understated my weekend drinking, On weekends when I didn't have to work I would go to the beach and get drunk by noon, go home sleep it off and wake up and go out at night and do it again. This was hard for me to admit to the doctor.

[likerdup1]

Supposedly, if you are a real, hard core alcoholic. You also need certain drugs to overcome your cravings. If not, you could die. Like cold turkey with drugs.

Did you guys have to take medication before/during or after your first few AA meetings? I cannot believe that you just walked into an AA meeting without other help.

Antabus, anti depressants etc. come to mind. I went to a clinic here, not affiliated to AA, and they offered me a whole cocktail of drugs to help calm me, sleep, eat. Archaic is not the word. Two years before I had just, on my own, got over cocaine and did not want any of that in my system.

And the people i saw there were like zombies, eyes out on pinheads, bad skin, smelly.

And the counsellours - what?!! They did not listen at all.

I never went back.

Mobi knows about that horrific experience..

The main thing to do is consult a good doctor first when attempting to address any chemical dependency, especially if the drug/alcohol etc. is used daily. I have heard that some doctors may prescribe drugs for a chronic daily user of say heroin or alcohol as witdrawl symptoms can actually kill. The main thing is to get th drugs and alcohol out of the system, so whatever the doctor / detox prescribes as the best course would be the thing to do.

Consulting a reputable detox clinic is a good idea IMHO

Myself I was a binge user so detox for me was not that difficult. It was staying stopped that was difficult. I would put together 2 weeks of sobriety without to much trouble, but found it very difficult to quit for more than a month.

For addicts / alcoholics who use daily or even a few times a week consulting a doctor is recommended. The AA book recommends hospitalization for an chronic daily drinker.

My personal opinion is that many 28 day "rehab" programs are not really necessary. A good 7-10 day detox is fine and then after the booze and drugs are out find a good AA meeting or group that focuses in on doing the steps. Most 28 day rehabs I have heard about are really just expensive introductions to AA. Call any of them and ask what they recommend after treatment and they will say, "continue to go to AA, call your sponsor, go to plenty of meetings etc.." They do provide detox, then counseling (which in my experience was not that effective ) AA meetings on site, exercise, good food during the stay etc.. and a sheltered enviornment to detox and adjust. But I have heard they can be as much as $20,000 US or more.

See a doctor, check into a reputable detox to dry out. Then find a wholesome Big Book reading AA group where they talk about the solution, how to connect with a Higher Power of your own understanding. Get to plenty of meetings and ask for help on how to take the steps.

It worked for me, 18+ years and I was a homeless, in debt, no job, sleeping in his car alcoholic and cocaine user.

[Sheryl]

I think we are in real danger of going around in circles here.

It has already been made very clear that among those posting here, there are people who achieved sobriety through AA and swear by it, and people who have objections to AA and choose other approaches. Plenty of reasons and experiences have been described by both.

While it is understandable that people who found AA to work for them would be eager to convince others to try it, it may be useful to remember the AA tradition of "Attraction rather than Promotion".

Those who wish to discredit AA or any other program/approach that has clearly worked for some people, even if they themselves are not amongst them, might do well to remember that not everyone is the same and that if your words deter people from trying an approach to sobriety, your effect may be harmful.

This is not the place for a debate for or against AA, and if we can't stay out of the rut the thread will have to be closed.

[likerdup1]

I think we are in real danger of going around in circles here.

It has already been made very clear that among those posting here, there are people who achieved sobriety through AA and swear by it, and people who have objections to AA and choose other approaches. Plenty of reasons and experiences have been described by both.

While it is understandable that people who found AA to work for them would be eager to convince others to try it, it may be useful to remember the AA tradition of "Attraction rather than Promotion".

Those who wish to discredit AA or any other program/approach that has clearly worked for some people, even if they themselves are not amongst them, might do well to remember that not everyone is the same and that if your words deter people from trying an approach to sobriety, your effect may be harmful.

This is not the place for a debate for or against AA, and if we can't stay out of the rut the thread will have to be closed.

Sheryl, were you referring to my post? If so, I surely don't want to violate the rules here. I'm hoping the reader will understand my post is my experience and humble opinion and that I'm not a doctor or recognized authority. Just a lucky alcoholic who got willing to do the 12 steps and found sobriety and some peace of mind.

Incidentally I was interested in reviewing tradition 11 since you mention it. If you don't mind I will quote the long form here:

11.—Our relations with the general public should be characterized by personal anonymity. We think A.A. ought to avoid sensational advertising. Our names and pictures as A.A. members ought not be broadcast, filmed, or publicly printed. Our public relations should be guided by the principle of attraction rather than promotion. There is never need to praise ourselves. We feel it better to let our friends recommend us.

[trisailer]

What words will convince you that no one here is anti-AA.

Presenting objective information about the science of alcoholism from respected medical authorities should not be threatening to anyone.

Everyone's motivation is the same, to help people achieve sobrioty and transform their lives. kerryk is absolutely correct about how eliminating alcohol and learning to live free from it makes life so much better.

I have and will continue to recomend AA to anyone seeking to get sober. I just did yesterday. My choices for my life today may not include active AA involvement, but it does not change the fact that AA taught me how to do it.

If someone chooses to use my words or the words of objective science to rationalize their continued drinking it only says that their not ready for AA anyway. I've been on enough 12 step missions to know that people come when THEY are ready.

[GrahamF]

I want to know, why all the fear? AA is clearly a program that works for a lot of people. Some of those folks are testifying to that fact. I am testifying to that fact. Truly millions are able to achieve and maintain sobriety through AA.

What we are not getting here is the testimony of the OTHER millions who achieved sobriety without AA. The science tells us that they are out there. I'm not afraid to acknowledge other choices.

Alcoholism is a disease, but it is a disease of the MIND. I wasn't an alcoholic when I was eight years old. I was a happy kid. I started using alcohol in the Army to escape from the boredom and fear. Fear is what brought most folks to alcoholism. Fear of failure in our careers, fear of dealing with our demons, fear, fear, fear.

When I said that AA is a safe harbor what I meant is that the dogma of AA keeps some people sober by attending meetings and being constantly reminded of their WEAKNESS. They FEAR being open to other ideas. There were old timers that I knew who avoided people, places and things because they were AFRAiD to test their core beliefs. OK, I have no problem with that if it keeps them sober.

For me I don't want to live a fear based life. I want to be attracted to my life and every day I find new and wonderful reasons to achieve that. A perfect demonstration of that is I was looking for scientific data to convince Mobi to commit to AA because I was, like some of you, convinced that AA WAS THE ONLY WAY. The science says otherwise. Mobi presented some of that science and it was completely ignored or attacked.

The facts remain. Many people stop drinking on their own. The 12 steps were created by man. The genesis of the program evolved from the minds of men. There exists many parallel paths that all lead to the same place. AA is a place to support folks to get stabilized and stop drinking, but it works by dogma. I found it limiting me in my quest to RE-BALANCE my life. The switch in my brain that got flipped and caused me to become dependent on substances needed to get switched back. AA had it's hand on the switch holding it for me for awhile and that's exactly what I needed then. Now I hold the switch. My higher power is me. I am not afraid of anything because I know what I am about. AA limited me after I had achieved two years I felt confined by AA.

I want to be free of fear to explore my world and not limit myself. There is no god. God is in each and every one of us. That's the reason why it doesn't matter what we choose as a higher power because it is and always was us. We are only taking back what was always ours.

If you give a man a fish you feed him for a day, but if you teach a man to fish you feed him for life.

After I moved to a new city I was fortunate to meet a guy who was a professional bass fisherman. He took me under his wing and we went out fishing every chance we got. He taught me how to catch them, but going out a catching a big one on my own was a most awesome experience.

In every study of people living by dogma the facts show that they actually do worse at making proper choices than people who know how to fish.

I also believe that my higher power is within or a part of me, I do not believe in a "god on high." What I have found is that by working the 12 steps, thereby keeping my ego under control and understanding my resentments, I am able to access that part of me that knows the right thing to do, for me and others. If I don't do the work, I find that my disease and my ego can scream a lot louder than my HP. I live a pretty normal life, I go to places where alcohol is served, whether it's a party or a bar, I just don't want to drink anymore. I think the main fear I have is going back to my life when I was drinking, and for me that is a great motivator to keep doing the steps, meditating, etc, not the only motivation as I really like my life now. When I look back on my drinking career, I also realize that I can't take that first drink, I think that for me it is primarily a physical thing. Once the booze hits my body, I just want more......I think the physical addiction/craving has been mentioned previously in the thread and that's me all over. Strangely, I would have to say that when it comes to life in general, I am much less fearful than when I was drinking and I have to attribute that to AA and the steps.

If one uses the word God as a generic term for a higher power of ones own understanding and asks, "Can god cure alcoholism?" I would have to say, "Yes, god can."

[Mobi]

Last night, I was watching an old movie and also browsing through the latest posts on my precocious ‘alcohol’ thread - pondering my next post - when suddenly, the serenity of the dark, cool, lakeside night was shattered by the piercing sounds of a pit-bull terrier in the garden opposite. Ben tends to do this on a fairly regular basis, especially late at night and usually for no apparent reason. There was nobody walking along the village lane, no stray dogs anywhere in sight, but maybe Ben’s incredibly sharp, excitable senses had detected something out of the ordinary somewhere in the vicinity.

Within a matter of seconds, several dogs in nearby dwellings had joined in the barking chorus; this became the signal for Cookie, my giant, long haired golden, and Somchai and Yoghurt, my two mischievous little Shih Tzus, to stir from their incumbent positions next to my feet and make a beeline for the front patio doors and then race to my front gate, all the while joining in the general cacophony which by this time had risen to deafening levels.

Now Cookie knows full well that she is not supposed to run to the gate and bark in this fashion, but unfortunately, instinct seems to ‘kick in’ and she just can’t help herself, even though she is fully aware that she is disobeying her master. The two little ones just do what they like; where Cookie goes, they quickly follow.

Within a matter of ten seconds or so, after a sharp rebuke from Mr Mobi, Cookie stopped her barking and ran back into the house, rushing up to me emitting a soft, almost pathetic whine, licking my hand and begging my forgiveness; or maybe she was craving indulgence for my incorrigible ‘daughter’ and her two little companions in crime.

So my three pooches were back under control but the rest of the howling muts were still going at it tooth and nail. In particular Ben, the pit bull, barely stopped for breath in his incessant snarling and barking. The owner was at home, as he had been on many previous occasions, when his beloved but vicious pet had embarked upon one of his late night 'disturbances of the peace'. But, as usual, he made no effort to intervene and silence his dog; just letting him continue his long, endless harangue, until he eventually wore himself out.

I contemplated why it was that I was sufficiently considerate of others to make the effort to get my dogs back under control as quickly as possible? I certainly didn’t wish to be thought of as someone who had actively abetted the furtherance of noise pollution in this little haven of lakeside tranquillity. Yet why don't my neighbours adopt the same attitude? Why is it that they are content to let their dogs snap and howl at my dogs with no attempt to moderate or control their behaviour? Somehow, it didn’t seem fair; I was trying to do my bit, so why can’t they do theirs? But in the end, I just shrugged my shoulders in resignation as I realised that this the way of the world.

Eventually, some ten minutes after ‘war had broken out’, peace returned to the lake, and it wasn’t long before the silly incident was a distant memory and my motley pack nestled ever closer to me to be comforted and loved.

The sober world of Mobi was back in harmony with the night and with nature – at least for a while….

[Patsycat]

Give Cookie a kiss from her Auntie Pats....

Pats on the other hand went into downtown devilish Geneva today to meet some friends.

I eventually squeezed my able bodied person from their horrible hands and decided to come home.

On the way i stopped at MacDonalds. Got an Ice Tea, burger and chips to eat there. They do have a nice terrace where you can people watch. But it was raining. I went back inside to get my food in a take away bag. Got the bus home - to discover the guy had inadvertantly placed three large packets of pommes frites in my bag.

I now face the dilemma of eating cold chips for the rest of the weekend.

Maybe I'll add a pack to my enraptered photo.... which is quite easy to do except for getting Jimbo to sit long enough for the photo!!!

And then getting the instructions out about how to put piccies on the computer...

Have a good weekend!!!

[ThaiPauly]

Just a few lines on the 90 meetings in 90 days comments.

It is not mentioned anywhere in the BB because it came from American Courthouses, who instead of sentencing someone who commited crimes while under the influence, or DUI's should attend 90 aa meetings in 90 days, the equivalent of the jail time they would have served. If they did not do it they were packed off to jail.

Apparantly it proved more successful than not and that is why many people/sponsers in aa recommend it as a way forward for newcomers to the fellowship

[likerdup1]

Just a few lines on the 90 meetings in 90 days comments.

It is not mentioned anywhere in the BB because it came from American Courthouses, who instead of sentencing someone who commited crimes while under the influence, or DUI's should attend 90 aa meetings in 90 days, the equivalent of the jail time they would have served. If they did not do it they were packed off to jail.

Apparantly it proved more successful than not and that is why many people/sponsers in aa recommend it as a way forward for newcomers to the fellowship

Thanks Pauly, I did not know that. My first sponsor had me do 90 in 90 and it did help as I am still sober over 18 years now. What I have found out over the years though is that 90 in 90 is not part of the AA program and it certainly isn't all a new AA should do. It's a great idea along with working the steps of course.

Best if a new member is willing to do the work to start right away from what the book says. Half measures availed us nothing as they say. I start right on the steps with new men I meet. Of course detox for the wet ones until they are well enough to do sit down and talk then do some work.

I hope you are feeling better. Sounds like a tough operation you had been through. Please get well soon and feel better soon.

Likerdup1

[saraburioz]

What words will convince you that no one here is anti-AA.

It has become obvious that the OP is anti AA and this whole thread was his perverse attempt to spread anti-AA feelings. The next thing he would have posted would be the Orange papers if he hadn't been found out.

[Mobi]

Hmmm. It’s been nice and peaceful around here for a few days, but just a few minutes ago there was a nasty little yap yapping sound from a dilapidated shack, just across the way.

I had a quick look; it is such a poor, ugly little specimen of a pooch – no wonder he makes such a pathetic, whiny kind of noise.

My three trusty doggies - Cookie, Somchai and Yoghurt couldn’t even be bothered to stretch their legs and go and see what was afoot.

[RickThai]

Although this thread seems to have beaten the original topic to death, I would like to remind the ex-hardcore drinkers who still drink albeit moderately, that their livers are probably already in pretty bad shape, and every single drink kills it off a little more.

Unless you have had a liver biopsy recently, and the doctors have said your liver is in tip top shape, each drink probably brings you a little closer to liver failure.

Please don't kid yourself, that it is okay to continue to drink, since you don't go on benders anymore. Heavily-abused livers, will never recover, so you really should take care of what functionality your liver still has.

When it goes, it goes quickly, and you suffer a miserable existence until you die (or get a liver transplant).

Best wishes.

Rick

[SpoliaOpima]

Folks keep saying that AA works fine as long as you follow the program. Obviously that dictum also applies to any approach. Any have the potential for success if you follow the dictates of that particular program. It's as true for the number 1 approach as it is for the bottom of the list. Therefore the likelihood of following or not following a program correctly is automatically factored into the stats that rank AA rather low on the list (referenced in an earlier post).

Perhaps one reason AA ranks low is because it's not so easy to follow the program, which requires attendance at meetings for life. Maybe another reason is that it mainly uses just one front, fellowship, while some of the more successful programs add physical and pschological therapy.

A lot of people like to say they don't believe in stats or in scientific studies. Yet even AAers are always talking about the disease model - a scientific approach which apparently has some validation in scientific studies. So it becomes a case of accepting studies that agree with your opinion, and rejecting those that do not. Not very scientific.

If you claim to respect empirical investigation, then you have to look at the actual published studies in the area of addiction and substance abuse. AA does not fare very well, overall, in these. Alcoholism is a medical problem, and medical research has advanced a bit since the 1930s.

By all means try AA, but if it doesn't work for you, try something else.