Oil And Water

[JurgenG]

We have a big drama going on at the office. Two weeks ago there was a party where most of our colleagues were invited with their "better half" but one of our junior colleague was not.The problem ? He's dating a bar girl, made the mistake to take her to a previous party and now he is blacklisted. Not that we are particularly prudish, a number of people come with same sex partner and nobody has any problem with that. But all the Thais (the majority of the guests) know the same people, went the same schools, go to the same places and a BG just wouldn't fit in.

Then he made the mistake to talk to his Thai colleagues, probably hoping for some support. He still believes that dating a bg is something acceptable in Thailand. He's going out with the wrong crowd and has been warned before, but still can't accept the reality of the Thai society. So of course he got no support at all from his colleagues, quite the opposite.

This week he didn't show up for work and sent a letter to head quarter accusing his colleagues of discrimination. What a bloody idiot ! He's just killing all his prospect of promotion and will probably be asked to resign. What he was asked was just to keep is discreet. Don't ask, don't tell.

What do you think? Is he right to stand for his gf who will probably dump him as soon as he is out of job ? Or is he just one more bloody idiot like many others in Thailand ?

[kerryk]

Does one person do the black listing or do you all get together and cast white and black beans in a hat?

[smokie36]

IMy only thought in this situation would be 'collateral damage'.

This guy is leaping off the precipice with his eyes closed.

[IanForbes]

Interesting topic with many viewpoints that could be studied. Everything we do has consequences. Not knowing the Thai hierarchy is one of them.

There really is no right or wrong answer. It is what it is. As long as the guy knows he will be black listed then he has to make a choice. I have former friends who don't beieve in my life style. I could have stayed quiet and just gone along with their self righteous position, but I chose to drop them as my friends. But, I am self contained and don't need anyone to further my career. It is too bad that people can't be more understanding, but that is life as it is. I once made the mistake of bringing my new wife to an annual fishing trip with friends from Calgary. Everyone was polite and my wife fit in with the crowd, but I was told later that it was supposed to be a bachelor type party. I just made sure that she didn't come on future trips with that gang.

It is like arguing with the many people here on thaivisa. Many have entrenched, polarized viewpoints and won't be shaken. You either live with it or go somewhere else. This guy has to make some choices in life. It's too bad he's already made the first mistake that can't be rectified. I would hate to be told that I had to dump a woman I was in love with because it's against company policy. I think I would dump the company first. But, that is what many Thai societies are like. I've seen it in many aspects of Thai society.

[carmine]

Thai society is what it is. Not for us to decide if its right or wrong. Its their way in their country. I actually doubt whether this guys girlfriend enjoys these occasions anymore than he friends that don't agree with her presense.

I will play devils advocate here though. My point is, these girls are called bar girls because you cannot use the "P" word. So. if lets say, you were going out with an English prostitute in London just for example, how do you think your friends would react if you brought her to their cocktail party?

Like i said, i'm not saying eithers right of wrong but there are definately two sides to be considered.

[smokie36]

Thai society is what it is. Not for us to decide if its right or wrong. Its their way in their country. I actually doubt whether this guys girlfriend enjoys these occasions anymore than he friends that don't agree with her presense.

I will play devils advocate here though. My point is, these girls are called bar girls because you cannot use the "P" word. So. if lets say, you were going out with an English prostitute in London just for example, how do you think your friends would react if you brought her to their cocktail party?

Like i said, i'm not saying eithers right of wrong but there are definately two sides to be considered.

I suppose it depends where you pick up your bar girls or in London your p's.Better to take along an off duty uni student next time perhaps....

[carmine]

Thai society is what it is. Not for us to decide if its right or wrong. Its their way in their country. I actually doubt whether this guys girlfriend enjoys these occasions anymore than he friends that don't agree with her presense.

I will play devils advocate here though. My point is, these girls are called bar girls because you cannot use the "P" word. So. if lets say, you were going out with an English prostitute in London just for example, how do you think your friends would react if you brought her to their cocktail party?

Like i said, i'm not saying eithers right of wrong but there are definately two sides to be considered.

I suppose it depends where you pick up your bar girls or in London your p's.Better to take along an off duty uni student next time perhaps....

Taking an escort has nothing to do with this guys situation though does it, hence me drawing that similar example in UK.

[krading]

"She doesn't look 'Jewish' at all"

Joel Grey

[smokie36]

Thai society is what it is. Not for us to decide if its right or wrong. Its their way in their country. I actually doubt whether this guys girlfriend enjoys these occasions anymore than he friends that don't agree with her presense.

I will play devils advocate here though. My point is, these girls are called bar girls because you cannot use the "P" word. So. if lets say, you were going out with an English prostitute in London just for example, how do you think your friends would react if you brought her to their cocktail party?

Like i said, i'm not saying eithers right of wrong but there are definately two sides to be considered.

I suppose it depends where you pick up your bar girls or in London your p's.Better to take along an off duty uni student next time perhaps....

Taking an escort has nothing to do with this guys situation though does it, hence me drawing that similar example in UK.

OK but the same in the UK would likely be eastern european. Or a crack whore.

[krading]

Did this distasteful female exhibit some sort of outrageous behaviour at the first party so bringing down upon herself the well deserved reputation of social pariah?

or was it just a bunch of wannabe hi-sos displaying their predjudices for all to see?

naa, I think it's just a troll.

[Loz]

The man doesn't accept the company protocol. He's free to challenge it or indeed, leave. He will hopefully learn something that enriches his life whatever happens.

Good to see the old boy's network alive and well. Some people just don't belong, right?

[Thongkorn]

I know some bargirls who have better morals than some so called upper class . Again generalization of a bargirl/lady .ie will probably drop him later. have you ever thought that it is sad that men have to buy company from Lady's, usually because the men are unsightly/fat ugly or no personality or are just selfish , thats probably why they are on there own and in the position they find there selfs so have to pay for company.If you are paying for sex why take them to a sex party.

[richard_smith237]

Perhaps the issue here is - Had she been a poor cashier working at tesco's would she have been accepted?

Is this ostracism due to moral opinions regarding her profession or her behaviour? Unfortunately this exclusion is often based on appearance, girls can sometimes innocently look like a hooker when they are simply poorly dressed.

Many Thai females are well aware of the international reputation of Thai women and work hard to avoid being tarred by the same brush. One BG in the midst can cause a whole group to be treated negatively by waiters and onlookers etc. This guy doesnt care what anyone else thinks, unfortunately he is alone.

Rightly or wrongly we live in a society where appearance does matter - A BG on the arm will tarnish the reputation of the guy in question and those close to him.

Should we take the moral high ground and accept everyone as a human being and that they should be treated equally and respectfully?

Or should we simply accept reality and understand that there are those around us who wish not to be brought down to the lowest common denominator?

We are in part condoning this judgemental behaviour when we look down on various others but experience has perhaps taught us to do so particularly with BGs in Thailand who in general lack the social grace when in educated company and in general look like a fish out of water or perhaps more to the point, monkeys out of the rain forest..........

[Beetlejuice]

Interesting topic with many viewpoints that could be studied. Everything we do has consequences. Not knowing the Thai hierarchy is one of them.

There really is no right or wrong answer. It is what it is. As long as the guy knows he will be black listed then he has to make a choice. I have former friends who don't beieve in my life style. I could have stayed quiet and just gone along with their self righteous position, but I chose to drop them as my friends. But, I am self contained and don't need anyone to further my career. It is too bad that people can't be more understanding, but that is life as it is. I once made the mistake of bringing my new wife to an annual fishing trip with friends from Calgary. Everyone was polite and my wife fit in with the crowd, but I was told later that it was supposed to be a bachelor type party. I just made sure that she didn't come on future trips with that gang.

It is like arguing with the many people here on thaivisa. Many have entrenched, polarized viewpoints and won't be shaken. You either live with it or go somewhere else. This guy has to make some choices in life. It's too bad he's already made the first mistake that can't be rectified. I would hate to be told that I had to dump a woman I was in love with because it's against company policy. I think I would dump the company first. But, that is what many Thai societies are like. I've seen it in many aspects of Thai society.

Good post and right on.

Do any of you from England remember the episode of only Fools and Horses, when Del boy brings some low class trailer park trash to see the opera at Covent Garden? That about explains it all.

Whatever we choose to do in life, we must live with the consequences of our actions.

If this guy continues to go against the grain with company policy and protocol, that’s his problem.

The good image of the company must be given priority, staff are expendable.

[Mirth]

Fact is nothing to do with her job but everything to do with the degradation of fellow humans. Would the culprits pass the same judgement if say that guy was in senior management position? It's just his luck he's in a junior and expendable position and he's standing up for his rights but in the wrong position. Hopefully, he will learn from this episode.

[zzaa09]

Interesting topic with many viewpoints that could be studied. Everything we do has consequences. Not knowing the Thai hierarchy is one of them.

There really is no right or wrong answer. It is what it is. As long as the guy knows he will be black listed then he has to make a choice. I have former friends who don't beieve in my life style. I could have stayed quiet and just gone along with their self righteous position, but I chose to drop them as my friends. But, I am self contained and don't need anyone to further my career. It is too bad that people can't be more understanding, but that is life as it is. I once made the mistake of bringing my new wife to an annual fishing trip with friends from Calgary. Everyone was polite and my wife fit in with the crowd, but I was told later that it was supposed to be a bachelor type party. I just made sure that she didn't come on future trips with that gang.

It is like arguing with the many people here on thaivisa. Many have entrenched, polarized viewpoints and won't be shaken. You either live with it or go somewhere else. This guy has to make some choices in life. It's too bad he's already made the first mistake that can't be rectified. I would hate to be told that I had to dump a woman I was in love with because it's against company policy. I think I would dump the company first. But, that is what many Thai societies are like. I've seen it in many aspects of Thai society.

Well said, Ian.

[Tonto21]

I’d have noproblem with his bird coming to the works do, might liven it up, judge as Ifind….I might change my mind if the ping pong balls start landing in my beerglass! Some people are wraped way to tight!

[nocturn]

if you wouldn't bring a hooker to a work dinner at home, why would you do it here?

the other side of the coin, is that it must be an excruciating night out for the tart in question. seems she is earning every penny.

I once worked with an idiot who brought a girl from the building's Au Bon Pain to dinner with the Thai MD.

he was basically laughed out of a job, and she was never seen again behind the counter.

[robblok]

if you wouldn't bring a hooker to a work dinner at home, why would you do it here?

the other side of the coin, is that it must be an excruciating night out for the tart in question. seems she is earning every penny.

I once worked with an idiot who brought a girl from the building's Au Bon Pain to dinner with the Thai MD.

he was basically laughed out of a job, and she was never seen again behind the counter.

That is crazy.. but who am I. I absolutely don't care much about what other people thing. Things might be different here i just make sure im not dependent on others.

[electrozebra]

IF she is really a girlfriend he should stick up for what he believes in. On the other hand if she is a b/g then she is not really a girlfriend and he seems foolish to me to want to take her to an official 'do'. B/G are ten a penny and I would not take one to an office party or to any other party such as a wedding or a funeral.

Thai society generally dictates that these B/G are kept in their place and that is several levels down from the average society. People know they exist and form a function in life but that does not mean they want to be associated with them.

Hell, even a b/g's own family does not want the neighbours and friends to know she is a b/g. Massive loss of face involved. So why should these co-workers have to put up with it?

[rizla]

IF she is really a girlfriend he should stick up for what he believes in. On the other hand if she is a b/g then she is not really a girlfriend and he seems foolish to me to want to take her to an official 'do'. B/G are ten a penny and I would not take one to an office party or to any other party such as a wedding or a funeral.

Thai society generally dictates that these B/G are kept in their place and that is several levels down from the average society. People know they exist and form a function in life but that does not mean they want to be associated with them.

Hell, even a b/g's own family does not want the neighbours and friends to know she is a b/g. Massive loss of face involved. So why should these co-workers have to put up with it?

IT`s not the fact that she is or might be a bar girl, it`s the fact they will be threatend by her, as a lot of thai men will and do pay for sex/ mia nois on a daily basis..........she may earn her money as she see`s fit....and they earn theirs through coruption and nepitism at all levels....

Thailand is a joke when it comes to morals , please dont tell me they have standards..........

And to the the peeps that think the uk is better, dont make me laugh, get out at the weekend there and you`ll get a slapper for free who dont even have the brains to charge.....

[JurgenG]

A number of interesting question.

Who do the black listing ? Nobody. People who will invite them will make the same mistake he did by inviting her, so they won't do it. There was a few gossips but mostly it was his unapologetic behavior that gets him black listed.

Will a senior partner be black listed the same way ? Yes, but if he is a senior partner he knows the rules and won't do it unless he's suicidal. The young guy problem is he doesn't understand the unwritten rules, some will say his main problem is to be young .

Thai society generally dictates that these B/G are kept in their place and that is several levels down from the average society. People know they exist and form a function in life but that does not mean they want to be associated with them.

Hell, even a b/g's own family does not want the neighbors and friends to know she is a b/g. Massive loss of face involved. So why should these co-workers have to put up with it?

That's basically it.

There are "boys night out" ( and I heard Girls too) where people can get wild with like minded colleagues or friends and everything is forgotten the next morning. But these are social events, for many networking party too, family oriented garden party. I understand when you're young you want to contest the established rules but this poor guy is ruining his future in Thailand.

[bunta71]

Plastic people are full of themselves

[CanInBKK]

Hell, even a b/g's own family does not want the neighbours and friends to know she is a b/g. Massive loss of face involved. So why should these co-workers have to put up with it?

IT`s not the fact that she is or might be a bar girl, it`s the fact they will be threatend by her, as a lot of thai men will and do pay for sex/ mia nois on a daily basis..

What do you mean by "threatened"? I doubt it's physically with violence but I also high doubt that it's a threat to their morals either. If you think she'll recognize a few of the coworkers and blackmail or whatever I think you should take a look at the people who bgs pick as clientele.

I believe the attitude is truly don't ask don't tell. As long as you keep it at home nobody cares who your partner is.

[electrozebra]

IF she is really a girlfriend he should stick up for what he believes in. On the other hand if she is a b/g then she is not really a girlfriend and he seems foolish to me to want to take her to an official 'do'. B/G are ten a penny and I would not take one to an office party or to any other party such as a wedding or a funeral.

Thai society generally dictates that these B/G are kept in their place and that is several levels down from the average society. People know they exist and form a function in life but that does not mean they want to be associated with them.

Hell, even a b/g's own family does not want the neighbours and friends to know she is a b/g. Massive loss of face involved. So why should these co-workers have to put up with it?

IT`s not the fact that she is or might be a bar girl, it`s the fact they will be threatend by her, as a lot of thai men will and do pay for sex/ mia nois on a daily basis..........she may earn her money as she see`s fit....and they earn theirs through coruption and nepitism at all levels....

Thailand is a joke when it comes to morals , please dont tell me they have standards..........

And to the the peeps that think the uk is better, dont make me laugh, get out at the weekend there and you`ll get a slapper for free who dont even have the brains to charge.....

On the UK topic of a slapper for free. I have always found that you pay through the nose all night for drinks and very few of those women will drink half a lager. You end up paying £20 - £30 for drinks and maybe get your leg over at the end of it.

I cannot see many good Thai women being threatened by a b/g except to their reputations and we all know how good thai people are at gossiping. Soon you are also listed as a b/g. Guilt by association and as I have said, most Thai people do not want to be associated with the b/g scene.

Same in the UK or other countries, I would not take the local slapper to an offic function, neither would I take a prostitute.

A Mia Noi is a different kettle of fish and mor socially acceptable here. Thai morality is not the same as those I have been brought up with but I do not condemn Thai people for that.

If the guy wants to take a known prostitute to a social function in any country then he should be prepared to accept many will not find it socially acceptable and also be prepared to be ostracised to some degree. Surely that is common sense?

[JurgenG]

Plastic people are full of themselves

We´re Only In It For The Money

[TheLaughingMan]

So for the ones defending this kind of thing (bringing hookers to work dinners and events) my question is: Everything in life should be completely equal? Everyone should be allowed to do whatever they want anytime and not be judged? I just don't get where the line is drawn for you guys... is there a line? If he showed up with his 13 year old girlfriend would that be finally too far for you guys or is everything not allowed to be judged? I'm totally serious, just very interested to know. Because by any cultures standards, bringing a hooker to such an event and being judged and frowned upon for it would be normal and not seen as elitist snobs just being bad for making those judgements.

[IanForbes]

Unfortunately, the damage has probably already been done. It is too bad the young man did not ask before making a bad decision. Thais are very conscious of hierarchy, but they will turn a blind eye if it is not thrust in their face. Face is very important to them and they won't associate with anything that might rub off on them. Those of us here don't know the woman involved, but obvously the company does. Or, at least they THINK they do. In many circles of Thai society, appearance is everything, and a foreigner is not going to change it... even if he is right in principle.

That is one of the problems of youth... they don't listen to advice from elders until it is too late. Us old fossils ALREADY learned our lessons the hard way.

[IanForbes]

So for the ones defending this kind of thing (bringing hookers to work dinners and events) my question is: Everything in life should be completely equal? Everyone should be allowed to do whatever they want anytime and not be judged? I just don't get where the line is drawn for you guys... is there a line? If he showed up with his 13 year old girlfriend would that be finally too far for you guys or is everything not allowed to be judged? I'm totally serious, just very interested to know. Because by any cultures standards, bringing a hooker to such an event and being judged and frowned upon for it would be normal and not seen as elitist snobs just being bad for making those judgements.

That may be true, but in this case we don't know for sure that the woman is a hooker. All we suspect is she worked in a bar at some point in the game. I know MANY women, and some young girls, who work in bars that are NOT hookers. The women are happily married to husbands I call my friends. A couple of these women are far classier that many self righteous bigots who think they are important. But, that is not the issue here. It is just a case where the company majority has set down certain rules of behaviour that must be followed. The young man foolishly broke the rules and he is probably going to pay for it.

[TheLaughingMan]

Hmmm no, I have never heard the term "bar girl" used in reference to a waitress. Bar girl is hooker, otherwise why on gods earth ruin her rep and refer to her or herself as a bar girl needlessly? No I gotta disagree with you here, the op is talking about the young man bringing a hooker to work events. If she was just a waitress there wouldn't be an issue at all. I know tons of guys dating hookers thinking its ok, if they were smart enough to date a freaking waitress instead that would be a huge step up, but they don't do that. If you are refering to some grey line were its a waitress who in fact occasionally sells her body only when the mood or need causes her to but usually she does not, well she is still a hooker and well earned the title bar girl.

This is my problem: There are literally millions of girls with the moral sense to NOT sell their bodies here but these guys don't even try to date girls like that. They make a choice and in truth should live with the consequences. They want sexy and slutty and easy to have sex with, that comes with consequences.