Bedbug Toxin 'Likely' Cause Of Sarah Carter's Death

[Maestro]

Off-topic posts haved been and will continue to be removed.

[Jimjim]

It was still inexcusable the hotel remained open after continuing deaths.

Exactly right, inexcusable and utterly baffling. But it seems the family who own the hotel have a lot of influence.

Sad state of affairs.

[Dukeleto]

Sickening, absolutely sickening to read this. Parents to be embraced and

commended for their responses, but it will cloud their lives forever. I can't even begin to imagine the horror of that.<br>

<br>

I am not surprised at the ignorance of the hotel and the sprayers. I have

been wondering how the majority of Thais, outside the realms legitimate

universities, actually ever learn anything, especially when you take a

look at whatever media there is, or isn't. The television is for the most part

trash, and there is no printed media where I am. Internet cafes are

chock full of kids playing games, and the only other obvious use of

Internet is sport fishing for farang fools with money. So a product is

banned for indoor use in how many countries? Most of these people have

never even heard of those countries, let alone care what happens in

them, especially when you have prominent politicians proudly outspoken

about disrespect for farangs. My 36 year old ex, with supposedly a

Bachelor degree (in hairdressing?) didn't even know that Australia

wasn't part of Europe. For heaven's sake. When the most recent of van

crashes occurred, she just brushed it off, together with my concerns for

the speeds they drive at. It wasn't the van I take, so it didn't matter.

To illustrate her indifference, she topped speeds of 150 kmph when she

drove me to the airport in March, against my wishes to take the train. She doesn't want a partner who saves money, is concerned about this

life and rides a bicycle for all the good reasons of health (avoiding stress), economy and

concerns for the environment. It's bad for her image. My point is,

that if she, a supposed graduate, is so uncaring about such things, who

the hell is going to care about a substance in a bedroom you can't even

see. I do not think there will ever be answer that will provide any

measure of solace.

(By the way, I do not use the vans for transport to BKK any more.)

or her...I hope.

[davee58]

I don't believe this.

It seems like a convenient answer, tailor made to fit the situation.

I suspect that a lot more innocent people will die before the truth is out.

.

[xen]

I haven't read all the posts but perhaps somebody has already mentioned the fact that organophosphates often acculminate in your body over a period of time and may result in migraines and decreased health over many years Why are so many farmers so sick that use sprays especially when the donot take safety precautions when using organophosphates. Many termites control methods use organophosphates , especially in Thailand. How much food that is harvested within the withholding period put onto the markets.

Lliver and kidney disease has been linked to organophosphate use so next time you use a cockroach spray, read the label and take precautions.

The cockroaches will not kill you but the spray will. (the cure is worse than the cause).

It does make you wonder how many other hotels and even restaurants are using similar methods and chemicals to control bed-bugs, cockroaches etc.

This should spark a national education /awarenes programe on the use of toxic chemicals but the big multi-national chemical companies in conjunction with the government will not allow it.

[Sabre]

This doesn't explain the death of my Canadian friend during the same time period who only swam in that hotel's pool and then died of the very same heart symptoms the next day. He got a coupon from the hotel he was staying in that did not have a pool that allowed him to use the pool at the suspect hotel nearby. He swam there once and died one day later with the same symptoms of all the others.

Did they spray the pool with the bedbug chemical... I think there are still more unanswered questions here.

Sorry to hear about your friend.

Perhaps that hotel used the same company for its own bedbug problem .... ? Or maybe he came into contact with the chemical via a towel, or pool furniture or something ... ? Or maybe the chemical got into the pool somehow, whether accidentally or otherwise ... ?

[ronz28]

Please get the word out that Dursban and other chemicals aren't needed to kill bedbugs just use steam heat from a hand steamer as shown here and other youtube videos.

You can buy steam cleaners all over the internet.

[stanley2550]

They should re-spray the room again with the same chemical, lock that greedy owner in the room, chain his greedy arse to the bed, and let him sleep in their a few restless nights...He actually should be liable for several

lawsuits, but of Thailand's court system is so corrupt the owner of that hotel would walk away with no liability at all. and even should the families of those victums be awarded any money damages, it is doubtful that the thai court allow for the collection.

[ringopo]

Just terrible how they will probably get away with this, but hopefully some relief from the families.

The Company that sprayed the Downtown Inn was under inspection and a day before the Hotel was due to have an inspection, the whole of the fifth floor where the girls stayed- was stripped.

Hidden footage cameras show cleaners vacuuming, stripping down carpets and cleaning surfaces.

A sixty minute reporter is shown sneaking into the room where the girls stayed and take samples from surfaces in the room.

The samples where bought back to in New Zealand and tested.Showed traces of a poison called pyrophus , used in insecticides and which is band from some countries.

There had appaently been a bedbug problem in the hotel previously.

The full article can be read if you go to the NZ Herald website.

[saroq]

Disgraceful that the hotel wasn't closed and typical that the answer to this problem had to come from outside of Thailand. If not for the persistence of the family and the world wide attention nothing would have been done. In trying to save face Thailand in losing respect and certainly the trust of the people they rely on for tourism.

[Loaded]

The one thing that still does not make sense is the two people whose deaths were associated with the hotel but that did not stay as guests in any of the rooms. There was the Canadian? man who swam and ate lunch there and I believe a woman that was a separate incident as well. I don't understand how they were exposed to the insecticide.

Downtown offers a buffet breakfast and encourages non-residents to join. This is probably nothing but may be a line that joins some dots.

[kiwikeith]

Major problem here is that no one will likely be held responsible for these deaths. This will primarily come about because there seems to be very little or a nonexistence of any public health and safety, anywhere in the country.

There seems to be an over abundance of 'mai bpen rai' and bribery going on. Because of this these poor families, although they now have the answer, they will never see a lawful conclusion to these deaths.

So very sad. My condolences to all that were, are still being affected by this tragedy.

Biggest tragedy is the Thai culture is now better known across the world as an uncaring irresponsible society.

I watched the 60 minutes programme here in NZ twice last night and it showed the survivors explaining what they ate at the night market and they all ate different dishes and none ate fish so the food poisening theory was out the window straight away.

60 minutes went to the hotel as tourists and found the entire fifth floor being cleaned.

60 minutes crew then sneaked into the room and took samples.

The results and symptoms of death concur that the probability of death would be symptomaticly similar to chlorpyriflos poisening to the degree of 100%.

The parents say that they were naive to belive it was food poisening.

you say in your comments no one mayever be held responsible for this.

The victims families should now apply pressure at government level in there own countries to get an official enquiery.

Further to that the findings should be on the front page of all the newspapers in thailand.

An official enquiery is now needed,the blame will be shunted around as you say and no one will be prosecuted.

It is now up to the thai government to conduct an enquiery into the use of poisens and introduce a severe penalty if caught useing them

The media can apply pressure in this case after all it was media pressure that embaressed action being taken on child porn being sold in sukhomvit rd.

Then the week ministers of governments should be pressured to put the thai government under pressure for an enquiery.

Watching the interview it was so obvious and has been from the outset that the coincidence theory was a sick joke and that a cover up was well in progress.

Thailand has to act on this one and they will only do so if pressured by us,the media the families and the governments.

Very sad for the families my codolences to all who suffer.

[pomeloseed]

My 1st thought when reading this was: The effective detective work was done by farang investigators.

This should be a shot across the bow to Thai investigators and the people who instruct them. Get your act together! Learn the best investigative methods and procedures! Think outside the box! As much as anything else, this points out how abysmal the Thai education system is - a system which doesn't challenge its students to think creatively. Students learn from the time they're in plastic pants to just toe the line, don't question the teacher, show up in class most of the time and regardless of test grades (which they cheat at anyway), you'll graduate and get your degree - guaranteed.

All the above applies to unsolved deaths (and causes of severe sicknesses) in ko phi phi and other tourist places in Thailand. Such stories keep Thailand firmly in the '3rd world category' - in people's perceptions.

Also, I make my own anti-bed bug concoction. It's a tincture of cinnamon and chives with eucalyptus oil added. I'm still perfecting the brew, but I know it works. Anyone who'd like to compare notes of such a natural concoction is welcome to send me a note. Could be a commercial application also.

[BwindiBoy]

I know it's one photo but Sarah looked like a lovely, beautiful girl with a bright, optimistic face. Very sad that her life has been taken away so early, especially when it seems it could so easily have been avoided.

[easyas]

Interesting that the reported tests were performed by "current affairs television program," "60 Minutes." That's a somewhat serious and popular news program back in the states (likely one of the best offered there; I think they've had Obama on a couple of times), so this sorta suggests there could be a 20 minute news segment concerning "Deaths at the Downtown Inn in Chiang Mai" aired back in the states. Maybe it'll make it to youtube, if such is indeed ever aired.

The "60 Minutes" program is out of NZ, not USA. There's an earlier post on this thread which includes a link to the NZ program.

[msg362]

Wait a minute! The oral LD50 ( dose required to kill 50% of the test animals) is 60 mg/kg in mice. 1000 mg/kg in rabbits ,95-270mg/kg in rats and500-504 mg/kg in guinea pigs. In sheep it is even higher- 800mg/kg

Acute toxicity: Chlorpyrifos is moderately toxic to humans [43]. Poisoning from chlorpyrifos may affect the central nervous system, the cardiovascular system, and the respiratory system. It is also a skin and eye irritant [2]. While some organophosphates are readily absorbed through the skin, studies in humans suggest that skin absorption of chlorpyrifos is limited [2]. Symptoms of acute exposure to organophosphate or cholinesterase-inhibiting compounds may include the following: numbness, tingling sensations, incoordination, headache, dizziness, tremor, nausea, abdominal cramps, sweating, blurred vision, difficulty breathing or respiratory depression, and slow heartbeat. Very high doses may result in unconsciousness, incontinence, and convulsions or fatality. Persons with respiratory ailments, recent exposure to cholinesterase inhibitors, cholinesterase impairment, or liver malfunction are at increased risk from exposure to chlorpyrifos. Some organophosphates may cause delayed symptoms beginning 1 to 4 weeks after an acute exposure which may or may not have produced immediate symptoms [2]. In such cases, numbness, tingling, weakness, and cramping may appear in the lower limbs and progress to incoordination and paralysis. Improvement may occur over months or years, and in some cases residual impairment will remain [2]. Plasma cholinesterase levels activity have been shown to be inhibited when chlorpyrifos particles are inhaled [8]. The oral LD50 for chlorpyrifos in rats is 95 to 270 mg/kg [2,13]. The LD50 for chlorpyrifos is 60 mg/kg in mice, 1000 mg/kg in rabbits, 32 mg/kg in chickens, 500 to 504 mg/kg in guinea pigs, and 800 mg/kg in sheep [2,13,44]. The dermal LD50 is greater than 2000 mg/kg in rats, and 1000 to 2000 mg/kg in rabbits [2,13,45]. The 4-hour inhalation LC50 for chlorpyrifos in rats is greater than 0.2 mg/L [46].

What this means is that the girl, assuming she weighs around 50 kg would have to EAT/ingest between 3 and 40 grams of the stuff to have a 50 % chance of dying ( depending on the LD50 for humans which thankfully we don't have data for). That is roughly a tea spoonful to three tablespoonfuls! Does that seem likely? If this is true, it should be possible to trace high levels in the autopsy. Has that been done?

I know it's nice to have an answer but is this it?

I'd really like someone to dismiss this question with harder evidence.

[eezergood]

Sad to say but as a member of the hospitatlity industry I have seen and heard some very very questionnable practices, so I am NOT supried at this at all. Especially as I have seen fire safety certificates being issued before the date of the official test & in lieu of the fact that on the day of the test the system was not even operational! I realy hope they do something about this case, BUT if the owners are "connected" then I am sure som ekind of blood money payment will be made and all swept under the carpet to save face! Remember the young girl of 16 that was driving illegally in Bangkok and killed a few people??? her father just happened to be an official

[metisdead]

A post has been removed due to possible violation of copyright and non compliance of fair use. It is generally accepted, but not written into law, that quoting the first two or three sentences of an article and giving a link to the source is considered “fair use” and not a violation of copyright.

[ginjag]

Interesting that the reported tests were performed by "current affairs television program," "60 Minutes." That's a somewhat serious and popular news program back in the states (likely one of the best offered there; I think they've had Obama on a couple of times), so this sorta suggests there could be a 20 minute news segment concerning "Deaths at the Downtown Inn in Chiang Mai" aired back in the states. Maybe it'll make it to youtube, if such is indeed ever aired.

The "60 Minutes" program is out of NZ, not USA. There's an earlier post on this thread which includes a link to the NZ program.

Did I read correct what the Chiang Mai governor said in answering the 60 mins questions, purely defense, to save face, any fool could have answered like that, shame on you Mayor, and your friends.

[Estrada]

Now it seems that "Foreign Experts" are being quoted as having solved the riddle of the deaths in this hotel, blaming it firmly on the use of Chlorpyrifos. The NewZealand and UN expert, is an Electrical Engineer with degrees in Business Management and Science and a PhD in complexity management theory in business. He is a lecturer in business studies at Auckland University. Like myself, he has had experience of clearing up toxic wastes from land fills etc. However, he cannot be held up as an Expert in the toxicology of this substance, and it is possible that he has been misquoted.

Whilst it would be extremely unlikely that one death would occur due to this substance especially with very short term exposure, the fact that there have been more deaths which have occured and that the deaths were fairly rapid does not fit the known toxicology effects of the Chemical Chloropyrifos.

From experience I believe that this is most definitely a cover up using so called experts with degrees in the hope that the people will believe that because they have a degree they must be an expert capable of investigating this incident. How a degree in business studies and a PhD in complexity management is relevant is beyond me.

I am afraid that this is not a case solved, it is a case covered up.

They should bring in fully qualified foreign experts in the field of toxicology with relevant Degrees such as Organic Chemistry etc.

I would still be looking at food poisoning attributable to aflatoxins and boric acid possibly from noodles.

The clinical features include vomiting, pyrexia, diarrhoea, abdominal pain, anorexia, giddiness, seizures, and eventual coma. Initially, many presented with a Reye-Like syndrome. Eleven post-mortem examinations were performed. The pathological findings included extensive coagulative necrosis of the liver with proliferative ‘ductal/ductular metaplasia of the hepatocytes’. Giant cell formation, central vein sclerosis, bile stasis, and steatosis were also noted. There was presence of acute tubular necrosis, superficial upper gastrointestinal erosions, and ensuing encephalopathy. The eventual cause of death is acute hepatic and renal failure.

[bedrock]

Bedbugs are difficult to exterminate. They are tough little critters. At a minimum, rooms that have been sprayed need to be left unoccupied for several days and very well ventilated. They also need a thorough cleaning before being rented again.

Bedbugs can live in bedding, including the mattresses, which would probably need to be disposed of. Can you imagine sleeping with your face in a mattress full of a dangerous chemical?

So sad .So scary this could happen to anyone anytime , albeit these families have an answer which is a great comfort but thats about all.

The question remains.....

What Govt agency will be employed to regulate the use of toxic chemicals in hotels , transport , public places etc should now be a matter to raise with officials , maybe some polli will score a few points by investigating this matter, perhaps the use of a notice that can be seen stating " WE DO NOT USE TOXIC CHEMICALS " can be displayed .

Although we see " No Smoking " signs everywhere , yet ask for an ash tray and we get one !

One can see someone spraying crops with chemicals in bare foot , ignorance is taught in schools ,

" DONT CARE SHOULD MEAN DO CARE " such is life in Thailand.

[Rikioh053]

what a sad story, I really didn't know that bed bugs could cause death! How do you get rid of them? Or protect yourself from it? How do you even check for them???

[ginjag]

what a sad story, I really didn't know that bed bugs could cause death! How do you get rid of them? Or protect yourself from it? How do you even check for them???

They are meat eaters, nasty , and need to handled carefully, with heavy gloves.

Easy to not have them, don't have a bed. Always have a full wet suit on when sleeping, check for their droppings, just to be sure. Sorry I couldn't resist this reply, thinking you are joking ????

[eezergood]

what a sad story, I really didn't know that bed bugs could cause death! How do you get rid of them? Or protect yourself from it? How do you even check for them???

If an infestation takes hold, which can and often does in hotels, then the only 100% solution is to incinerate the pillows, matress etc.... and deep clean with very strong chemiclas. This involves lots of money, time & and effort! Now am sure you can appreciate why nothing has been done when you see the criteria that must be undertaken

[happydaze]

Thailand

Enter at own risk!!

[Latindancer]

Chlorpyrifos is a SURFACE spray. It is not meant to be put anywhere near food preparation surfaces, beds, or anything that bare human skin could come into contact with. However some ignorant people use it as an insect knockdown spray, putting it into the air they and others breathe. I once caught an educated caucasian South African girl in a hostel in Taiwan, using it on the kitchen sink drainer we all put our dishes and cutlery on.

The autopsy results don't seem to support the girl in Chiang Mai having been exposed to this unduly.

I wonder where she had her last meal ? In 1998 there was a newspaper article here in which an agricultural worker took home some vegetables and fed her 8 yr old girl, who died because the farm owner was using pesticide mean for FLOWERS. ....and probably banned for even that in other countries.

Edited May 9, 2011 by Latindancer

[orang37]

... snip ... Whilst it would be extremely unlikely that one death would occur due to this substance especially with very short term exposure, the fact that there have been more deaths which have occured and that the deaths were fairly rapid does not fit the known toxicology effects of the Chemical Chloropyrifos. ... snip ... I am afraid that this is not a case solved, it is a case covered up. ... snip ...

Sawadee Khrup, Khun Estrada,

This is a very thoughtful critique of the current hypothesis of the cause of these multiple deaths: and that hypothesis could well be a "rush to judgement."

Hope you'll write a letter-to-the-editor of either the Bangkok Post or Nation conveying this analysis, and your reservations about the academic credentials of the investigator.

We live in Chiang Mai, and first thought came into our head, when we heard about the multiple fatalities all linked to that hotel, was the fact that the Anusarn Market seafood restaurant area is less than a hundred meters from that hotel, second thought was central air-con, but it has come out the rooms have individual air-con units, we believe.

thanks, ~o:37;

[Wavefloater]

Bedbugs are difficult to exterminate. They are tough little critters. At a minimum, rooms that have been sprayed need to be left unoccupied for several days and very well ventilated. They also need a thorough cleaning before being rented again.

Bedbugs can live in bedding, including the mattresses, which would probably need to be disposed of. Can you imagine sleeping with your face in a mattress full of a dangerous chemical?

Correct.

This makes a lot of sense. One has to cover everything carefully with plastic and fumigate any infected rooms. My guess is that someone was not at all careful.

On top of that, it's been my observation over the 10+ years I've been living in Thailand the general attitude is "more is better". I can see that cultural quirk playing right into this situation.

"Gee, if we use 3 or 4 times as much as the instructions tell me to, then it will do 3 or 4 times a better job."

I've never liked staying in hotels, not even nice ones. With this news it may be a very long time before I stay in one again.

Edited May 9, 2011 by Wavefloater

[ryladie99]

Wow..What great investigative journalism. Well done. My condolences to all the family of those destroyed by the actions of those involved. I think its time to call on our respective Governments to call on the Thai Government to catch up with the rest of the world and ban this stuff in any confined space and especially against 'bed bugs'. Its not good for health and it is certainly no good for tourism. If its banned, and used, its murder, or at the least..manslaughter. Good work Journalists. Thank You.

Thank you for posting and you did say the right thing. I feel so sad, my heart and soul go with the families. Thank you the journalist investigate team who shed this light.. thank you Thai Visa for alerting her members about the danger of chemical and Bed bugs. I am sure the Thai Government will act and does the right thing. If not Thai Visa member should gang up and sign our petitions to the Prime Minister of Thailand..my take and an opinion.

[ableguy]

Sickening, absolutely sickening to read this. Parents to be embraced and

commended for their responses, but it will cloud their lives forever. I can't even begin to imagine the horror of that.<br>

<br>

I am not surprised at the ignorance of the hotel and the sprayers. I have

been wondering how the majority of Thais, outside the realms legitimate

universities, actually ever learn anything, especially when you take a

look at whatever media there is, or isn't. The television is for the most part

trash, and there is no printed media where I am. Internet cafes are

chock full of kids playing games, and the only other obvious use of

Internet is sport fishing for farang fools with money. So a product is

banned for indoor use in how many countries? Most of these people have

never even heard of those countries, let alone care what happens in

them, especially when you have prominent politicians proudly outspoken

about disrespect for farangs. My 36 year old ex, with supposedly a

Bachelor degree (in hairdressing?) didn't even know that Australia

wasn't part of Europe. For heaven's sake. When the most recent of van

crashes occurred, she just brushed it off, together with my concerns for

the speeds they drive at. It wasn't the van I take, so it didn't matter.

To illustrate her indifference, she topped speeds of 150 kmph when she

drove me to the airport in March, against my wishes to take the train. She doesn't want a partner who saves money, is concerned about this

life and rides a bicycle for all the good reasons of health (avoiding stress), economy and

concerns for the environment. It's bad for her image. My point is,

that if she, a supposed graduate, is so uncaring about such things, who

the hell is going to care about a substance in a bedroom you can't even

see. I do not think there will ever be answer that will provide any

measure of solace.

(By the way, I do not use the vans for transport to BKK any more.)

Good post and oh so true, I drive from Hua Hin to BKK fairly regulaly and not exactly slowly around 90kph it takes mr three hours to get to gf parents house, the vans do it in two hours which says it all.