Thaksin: I'll Return At End Of Year

[patjem]

One post removed as it didn't make any sense.

I think there has been more than one post like that!

[maewrocks]

timekeeper, many of your candid but rather blunt comments ring true with some of my own thoughts. The most resounding one being that the vast majority of Red Shirts seem to bash the current incumbent government (and, to a lesser extent, anyone not in full agreement with them) with various truths, half-truths and lies rather than actually making any constructive suggestions as to what can be done better. Particularly this bit of your post is of huge importance:

now if you were to show me a red that can actually tell me what their political policy is, what good they have done for Thailand and how i will be better off with a known corrupt criminal running the country then i might treat them with some respect

however i have asked the question many time of the red cheerleaders on here, both the newly registered newbies thaksin cheerleaders, the re-registered cheerleaders and the genuine old hands but all have failed to give a response.

even when asked and challenged numerous times

all they can say is Abhisit is bad, only looks after the rich and never does anything for the poor people

ok you think that, fine, then tell me what the reds will do that will be better?

I've asked the same questions, and I haven't had many answers. There is a user called "Emptyset" who is, I think, by far the most read-up Red sympathizer on here. He has many suggestions about what Peua Thai could do better - although I think he knows in his heart of hearts that they won't, either by choice or incompetence. From what I gather, he is no fan of Thaksin (and he knows and acknowledges the numerous black marks on his record), but I think he wants to see the Thais learn from their own mistakes.

Also, some pro-reds actually acknowledge the good that the Abhisit-led coalition has done for the poor - education and healthcare, for example, have both been pulled out of their relative quagmires left to them by the last 2 administrations quite efficiently. Even some of the ones on here probably bash Abhisit merely to provide balance to those permanently bashing Thaksin.

But, you're right, the majority of the pro-Red posters here have no ideas of what Peua Thai will do for the benefit of the country, other than hand out free credit to those who can't pay it back and other non-sustainable machinations aimed at grabbing votes on election day. This is not something that will be fixed quickly, as Thai democracy is less than a century old and many (all?) examples of longer-standing democracies still have this same problem, although usually to a lesser extent. Questions need to be asked by the Peua Thai supporters to the Peua Thai lawmakers, as I suggested earlier in this thread to someone who says they are Thai and would welcome Thaksin back:

What I don't agree with you about is that Thaksin's return will sort out any of the problems you have brought up - corruption, drugs, economy, education. In my honest opinion, if we are to have learnt anything at all from the past, then his return will make all of these problems worse.

If you are Thai, I urge you to use your obvious intelligence in deciding whether Thaksin or Peua Thai have any practical solutions and a plan of execution in the upcoming election because, for me, only a fool would cast their vote based on unsubstantiated claims from a politician. If you are a Peua Thai member or supporter, please do your own party representatives a favour and ask them to prepare information to their constituencies of how they plan to perform all these magical acts. Frankly, I do not believe they can.

Certainly "maewrocks" has shown on his/her short time on these noticeboards that he/she has one thing to say: "Maew" (Thaksin's nickname) rocks. I strongly doubt that whatever bad acts Maew is proven to have done in the past or continues to do today will have any effect on this person's outlook on Maew, because Maew rocks. Maew killed people. "Yeah, but Maew rocks." How do you feel about Maew raping the country for its tax revenue? "Maew rocks!" You just can't have an intelligible conversation like that - however, there are people who insist on this level of debate on both sides of the divide.

thank you for your very interesting post

we may not agree on everything but its nice to be able to be civil for a change also re-assuring that someone is listening out there

i so frequently do not get a response to a genuine question one wonders if ''is there anybody really out there?''

PT is supported by a wide range of Thais from a wide range of social and financial backgrounds. One group who support them strongly are the academics and also a large section of the business community are hoping for their return. Professors, lawyers, teachers, ....etc. are all among the fans of PT and yes, dare I say it, Thaksin. Overall during Thaksin's administrations Thais were very happy with his efforts. The Thai economy performed well, international relations were strong and Thailand had an excellent reputation in the Asian community. In particular, during the TRT period the people of Isaan felt that, for the first time, they had a voice and a party who cared about their grievances. Of course many people did not share these feelings and believed TRT & Thaksin were corrupt and not loyal to the country. I strongly believe that both groups, pro and anti-Thaksin are entitled to their views. They were also entitled to vote him out of office in a democratic fashion.

Thaksin's administration continued the previous trend of reducing the military budget, which obviously was not popular with the generals and army sympathizers, but undoubtedly good for the economy and for the stability and outlook for the region. When the military ousted Thaksin in the 2006 coup, even the staunchest of yellow supporters realised that Thaksin's alleged corruption was not the only reason the army decided to act in this undemocratic and unconstitutional fashion.

Since 2006 the military budget has increased at an alarming rate. The Abhisit administration has approved almost every request, even for items that were proven to be ineffective and utterly unnecessary. This blatant support of the military, who were instrumental in the Democrats rise to power, is one of the main points that many Thais are opposed to their party.

Other points that have seriously distanced the people from this administration include; the silencing of opposition media (several independent international organisations have rated Thailand to have less media freedom under the Dems than TRT), a sharp increase in lese majeste cases, an increase in corruption at all levels of government (again rated by independent international organisations), their handling of the Cambodian border issue, their inability to implement policy, inaction on the reconciliation process, and the inability to stem inflation.

Those that state PT have no policies obviously haven't taken the time to visit the party website. They have extensive policies covering every aspect of the economy. You may not agree with them, but others do, and therefore they have every right to cast their vote for them. I believe the main reason for their popularity is that they claim to be left leaning and many of their policies are certainly focused on supporting the rural and urban poor. The people realise that if PT become the government they must take care of their support base or they will quickly lose favour and be voted out at the next election. Therefore they are the only realistic left(ish) wing option.

Another hugely important aspect of this election is the relative perceived democratic nature of the parties. The Dems are widely seen as having gained power in an undemocratic fashion and to be supported by certain elements that undoubtedly have extensive power in the country. Many voters are justifiably upset that their votes in the previous two elections have been marginalised by the military, courts and amart (as is claimed).

Personally I am only too happy to accept a Democrat victory in this election, as long as that is what it is, a victory. I also believe that if the Dems manage to get more seats than PT in a fair election, without any major fraud, the reds will stop their activities against the Dems. If PT manages to win substantially more seats than the Dems I hope, for the sake of peace and democracy, that they are also given a fair chance to form a coalition and are able to govern without the interference of powers outside of parliament.

[patjem]

PT is supported by a wide range of Thais from a wide range of social and financial backgrounds. One group who support them strongly are the academics and also a large section of the business community are hoping for their return. Professors, lawyers, teachers, ....etc. are all among the fans of PT and yes, dare I say it, Thaksin. Overall during Thaksin's administrations Thais were very happy with his efforts. The Thai economy performed well, international relations were strong and Thailand had an excellent reputation in the Asian community. In particular, during the TRT period the people of Isaan felt that, for the first time, they had a voice and a party who cared about their grievances. Of course many people did not share these feelings and believed TRT & Thaksin were corrupt and not loyal to the country. I strongly believe that both groups, pro and anti-Thaksin are entitled to their views. They were also entitled to vote him out of office in a democratic fashion.

Thaksin's administration continued the previous trend of reducing the military budget, which obviously was not popular with the generals and army sympathizers, but undoubtedly good for the economy and for the stability and outlook for the region. When the military ousted Thaksin in the 2006 coup, even the staunchest of yellow supporters realised that Thaksin's alleged corruption was not the only reason the army decided to act in this undemocratic and unconstitutional fashion.

Since 2006 the military budget has increased at an alarming rate. The Abhisit administration has approved almost every request, even for items that were proven to be ineffective and utterly unnecessary. This blatant support of the military, who were instrumental in the Democrats rise to power, is one of the main points that many Thais are opposed to their party.

Other points that have seriously distanced the people from this administration include; the silencing of opposition media (several independent international organisations have rated Thailand to have less media freedom under the Dems than TRT), a sharp increase in lese majeste cases, an increase in corruption at all levels of government (again rated by independent international organisations), their handling of the Cambodian border issue, their inability to implement policy, inaction on the reconciliation process, and the inability to stem inflation.

Those that state PT have no policies obviously haven't taken the time to visit the party website. They have extensive policies covering every aspect of the economy. You may not agree with them, but others do, and therefore they have every right to cast their vote for them. I believe the main reason for their popularity is that they claim to be left leaning and many of their policies are certainly focused on supporting the rural and urban poor. The people realise that if PT become the government they must take care of their support base or they will quickly lose favour and be voted out at the next election. Therefore they are the only realistic left(ish) wing option.

Another hugely important aspect of this election is the relative perceived democratic nature of the parties. The Dems are widely seen as having gained power in an undemocratic fashion and to be supported by certain elements that undoubtedly have extensive power in the country. Many voters are justifiably upset that their votes in the previous two elections have been marginalised by the military, courts and amart (as is claimed).

Personally I am only too happy to accept a Democrat victory in this election, as long as that is what it is, a victory. I also believe that if the Dems manage to get more seats than PT in a fair election, without any major fraud, the reds will stop their activities against the Dems. If PT manages to win substantially more seats than the Dems I hope, for the sake of peace and democracy, that they are also given a fair chance to form a coalition and are able to govern without the interference of powers outside of parliament.

Don't forget too collect your ha loi baht for each of those posts you've made this week!

[maewrocks]

PT is supported by a wide range of Thais from a wide range of social and financial backgrounds. One group who support them strongly are the academics and also a large section of the business community are hoping for their return. Professors, lawyers, teachers, ....etc. are all among the fans of PT and yes, dare I say it, Thaksin. Overall during Thaksin's administrations Thais were very happy with his efforts. The Thai economy performed well, international relations were strong and Thailand had an excellent reputation in the Asian community. In particular, during the TRT period the people of Isaan felt that, for the first time, they had a voice and a party who cared about their grievances. Of course many people did not share these feelings and believed TRT & Thaksin were corrupt and not loyal to the country. I strongly believe that both groups, pro and anti-Thaksin are entitled to their views. They were also entitled to vote him out of office in a democratic fashion.

Thaksin's administration continued the previous trend of reducing the military budget, which obviously was not popular with the generals and army sympathizers, but undoubtedly good for the economy and for the stability and outlook for the region. When the military ousted Thaksin in the 2006 coup, even the staunchest of yellow supporters realised that Thaksin's alleged corruption was not the only reason the army decided to act in this undemocratic and unconstitutional fashion.

Since 2006 the military budget has increased at an alarming rate. The Abhisit administration has approved almost every request, even for items that were proven to be ineffective and utterly unnecessary. This blatant support of the military, who were instrumental in the Democrats rise to power, is one of the main points that many Thais are opposed to their party.

Other points that have seriously distanced the people from this administration include; the silencing of opposition media (several independent international organisations have rated Thailand to have less media freedom under the Dems than TRT), a sharp increase in lese majeste cases, an increase in corruption at all levels of government (again rated by independent international organisations), their handling of the Cambodian border issue, their inability to implement policy, inaction on the reconciliation process, and the inability to stem inflation.

Those that state PT have no policies obviously haven't taken the time to visit the party website. They have extensive policies covering every aspect of the economy. You may not agree with them, but others do, and therefore they have every right to cast their vote for them. I believe the main reason for their popularity is that they claim to be left leaning and many of their policies are certainly focused on supporting the rural and urban poor. The people realise that if PT become the government they must take care of their support base or they will quickly lose favour and be voted out at the next election. Therefore they are the only realistic left(ish) wing option.

Another hugely important aspect of this election is the relative perceived democratic nature of the parties. The Dems are widely seen as having gained power in an undemocratic fashion and to be supported by certain elements that undoubtedly have extensive power in the country. Many voters are justifiably upset that their votes in the previous two elections have been marginalised by the military, courts and amart (as is claimed).

Personally I am only too happy to accept a Democrat victory in this election, as long as that is what it is, a victory. I also believe that if the Dems manage to get more seats than PT in a fair election, without any major fraud, the reds will stop their activities against the Dems. If PT manages to win substantially more seats than the Dems I hope, for the sake of peace and democracy, that they are also given a fair chance to form a coalition and are able to govern without the interference of powers outside of parliament.

Don't forget too collect your ha loi baht for each of those posts you've made this week!

I thought the claim was that opposition posters were making inflammatory remarks with no reason? This is a typical response from the one-eyed anti-opposition horde.

[Buchholz]

The cold reality stands in stark contrast to the proffered sound-bites from Red Shirt supporters.

ASEAN countries military expenditure as a percent of GDP

?.? (unreported) Myanmar

4.1 Singapore

3.9 Brunei

2.4 Vietnam

2.0 Malaysia

1.5 Thailand

1.1 Cambodia

1.0 Indonesia

0.8 Philippines

0.4 Laos

ASEAN average (not counting unreported Myanmar) = 1.9

On a world scale of military expenditure as a percent of GDP, Thailand ranks # 89.

Actually when putting in the updated figures for 2011, Thailand has dropped several places in comparison to their neighbors and is now even further below the average expenditures than they were before:

2011 ASEAN countries military expenditure as a percent of GDP

4.9 Singapore

4.5 Brunei

3.0 Cambodia

3.0 Indonesia

2.5 Vietnam

2.1 Burma

2.0 Malaysia

1.8 Thailand

0.9 Philippines

0.5 Laos

ASEAN average = 2.5

On a world scale of military expenditure as a percent of GDP, Thailand ranks # 85.

[maewrocks]

The cold reality stands in stark contrast to the proffered sound-bites from Red Shirt supporters.

ASEAN countries military expenditure as a percent of GDP

?.? (unreported) Myanmar

4.1 Singapore

3.9 Brunei

2.4 Vietnam

2.0 Malaysia

1.5 Thailand

1.1 Cambodia

1.0 Indonesia

0.8 Philippines

0.4 Laos

ASEAN average (not counting unreported Myanmar) = 1.9

On a world scale of military expenditure as a percent of GDP, Thailand ranks # 89.

Actually when putting in the updated figures for 2011, Thailand has dropped several places in comparison to their neighbors and is now even further below the average expenditures than they were before:

2011 ASEAN countries military expenditure as a percent of GDP

4.9 Singapore

4.5 Brunei

3.0 Cambodia

3.0 Indonesia

2.5 Vietnam

2.1 Burma

2.0 Malaysia

1.8 Thailand

0.9 Philippines

0.5 Laos

ASEAN average = 2.5

On a world scale of military expenditure as a percent of GDP, Thailand ranks # 85.

The comparison is between Dems & TRT. It is the trends that are telling here. The trends evident show a clear distinction in attitudes in military spending. Why have the Dems decided to substantially increase spending in a period where they have continually been reminding us of the severity of the financial crisis that is inhibiting their performance? If the economy was as bad as they claimed surely they shouldn't have been throwing cash at the military. Those looking at the situation without a hatred of the opposition can see the obvious link here.http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2010/09/03/thailands-hungry-military/

[timekeeper]

maewrocks

PT is supported by a wide range of Thais from a wide range of social and financial backgrounds. One group who support them strongly are the academics and also a large section of the business community are hoping for their return. Professors, lawyers, teachers, ....etc. are all among the fans of PT and yes, dare I say it, Thaksin. Overall during Thaksin's administrations Thais were very happy with his efforts. The Thai economy performed well, international relations were strong and Thailand had an excellent reputation in the Asian community. In particular, during the TRT period the people of Isaan felt that, for the first time, they had a voice and a party who cared about their grievances. Of course many people did not share these feelings and believed TRT & Thaksin were corrupt and not loyal to the country. I strongly believe that both groups, pro and anti-Thaksin are entitled to their views. They were also entitled to vote him out of office in a democratic fashion.

Thaksin's administration continued the previous trend of reducing the military budget, which obviously was not popular with the generals and army sympathizers, but undoubtedly good for the economy and for the stability and outlook for the region. When the military ousted Thaksin in the 2006 coup, even the staunchest of yellow supporters realised that Thaksin's alleged corruption was not the only reason the army decided to act in this undemocratic and unconstitutional fashion.

Since 2006 the military budget has increased at an alarming rate. The Abhisit administration has approved almost every request, even for items that were proven to be ineffective and utterly unnecessary. This blatant support of the military, who were instrumental in the Democrats rise to power, is one of the main points that many Thais are opposed to their party.

Other points that have seriously distanced the people from this administration include; the silencing of opposition media (several independent international organisations have rated Thailand to have less media freedom under the Dems than TRT), a sharp increase in lese majeste cases, an increase in corruption at all levels of government (again rated by independent international organisations), their handling of the Cambodian border issue, their inability to implement policy, inaction on the reconciliation process, and the inability to stem inflation.

Those that state PT have no policies obviously haven't taken the time to visit the party website. They have extensive policies covering every aspect of the economy. You may not agree with them, but others do, and therefore they have every right to cast their vote for them. I believe the main reason for their popularity is that they claim to be left leaning and many of their policies are certainly focused on supporting the rural and urban poor. The people realise that if PT become the government they must take care of their support base or they will quickly lose favour and be voted out at the next election. Therefore they are the only realistic left(ish) wing option.

Another hugely important aspect of this election is the relative perceived democratic nature of the parties. The Dems are widely seen as having gained power in an undemocratic fashion and to be supported by certain elements that undoubtedly have extensive power in the country. Many voters are justifiably upset that their votes in the previous two elections have been marginalised by the military, courts and amart (as is claimed).

Personally I am only too happy to accept a Democrat victory in this election, as long as that is what it is, a victory. I also believe that if the Dems manage to get more seats than PT in a fair election, without any major fraud, the reds will stop their activities against the Dems. If PT manages to win substantially more seats than the Dems I hope, for the sake of peace and democracy, that they are also given a fair chance to form a coalition and are able to govern without the interference of powers outside of parliament.

timekeeper

where did you plagerise this from Maewrocks?

its way beyond your pay grade.....

[timekeeper]

One post removed as it didn't make any sense.

I think there has been more than one post like that!

[Buchholz]

The cold reality stands in stark contrast to the proffered sound-bites from Red Shirt supporters.

ASEAN countries military expenditure as a percent of GDP

?.? (unreported) Myanmar

4.1 Singapore

3.9 Brunei

2.4 Vietnam

2.0 Malaysia

1.5 Thailand

1.1 Cambodia

1.0 Indonesia

0.8 Philippines

0.4 Laos

ASEAN average (not counting unreported Myanmar) = 1.9

On a world scale of military expenditure as a percent of GDP, Thailand ranks # 89.

Actually when putting in the updated figures for 2011, Thailand has dropped several places in comparison to their neighbors and is now even further below the average expenditures than they were before:

2011 ASEAN countries military expenditure as a percent of GDP

4.9 Singapore

4.5 Brunei

3.0 Cambodia

3.0 Indonesia

2.5 Vietnam

2.1 Burma

2.0 Malaysia

1.8 Thailand

0.9 Philippines

0.5 Laos

ASEAN average = 2.5

On a world scale of military expenditure as a percent of GDP, Thailand ranks # 85.

The comparison is between Dems & TRT. It is the trends that are telling here.

Why have the Dems decided to substantially increase spending

So you are saying that a 0.3% increase by Thailand is "substantial" in comparison to the

2.0% increase for Indonesia (over 6 times the increase of Thailand)

1.9% increase for Cambodia (over 6 times the increase of Thailand)

0.9% increase for Singapore (3 times the increase of Thailand)

0.6% increase for Brunei (2 times the increase of Thailand)

I suppose going from 89th to 85th on the world-wide rankings is also deemed "substantial", yes?

[maewrocks]

So you are saying that a 0.3% increase by Thailand is "substantial" in comparison to the

2.0% increase for Indonesia (over 6 times the increase of Thailand)

1.9% increase for Cambodia (over 6 times the increase of Thailand)

0.9% increase for Singapore (3 times the increase of Thailand)

0.6% increase for Brunei (2 times the increase of Thailand)

I suppose going from 89th to 85th on the world-wide rankings is also deemed "substantial", yes?

Even a primary school mathematician could tell you that an increase from 1.5% to 1.8% is a 20% increase in spending, not 0.3% as you claim.

[whybother]

So you are saying that a 0.3% increase by Thailand is "substantial" in comparison to the

2.0% increase for Indonesia (over 6 times the increase of Thailand)

1.9% increase for Cambodia (over 6 times the increase of Thailand)

0.9% increase for Singapore (3 times the increase of Thailand)

0.6% increase for Brunei (2 times the increase of Thailand)

I suppose going from 89th to 85th on the world-wide rankings is also deemed "substantial", yes?

Even a primary school mathematician could tell you that an increase from 1.5% to 1.8% is a 20% increase in spending, not 0.3% as you claim.

Then compare a 20% increase for Thailand to Cambodia's nearly 300% increase.

[jayboy]

So you are saying that a 0.3% increase by Thailand is "substantial" in comparison to the

2.0% increase for Indonesia (over 6 times the increase of Thailand)

1.9% increase for Cambodia (over 6 times the increase of Thailand)

0.9% increase for Singapore (3 times the increase of Thailand)

0.6% increase for Brunei (2 times the increase of Thailand)

I suppose going from 89th to 85th on the world-wide rankings is also deemed "substantial", yes?

With respect your credibility is limited on matters relating to the Thai military because there is never any criticism of the the greed, corruption, incompetence and political interference.More balance (actually any balance at all) would result in more serious attention.

In fact although comparison with other regional counties has limited usefulness (needs context and commentary), there is a case to be made given underexpenditure in the 1980's.The trouble is given the attributes of Thai generals much is of dubious value, including the half absurd half sinister suggestion to implement Prem's senile thoughts on "fortifying" the North East.Anyway although a year old, in contrast to some of the simplistic comparisons made in this thread, a useful overview follows.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/LB26Ae01.html

[SomTumTiger]

Thaksin: I'll Return At End Of Year

No you won't - liar.

[Pi Sek]

maewrocks - has it occurred to you that maybe TRT underspent on the military, rather than every other govt in Thailand's history overspending?

Given that the RTA are have at their disposal some pretty outdated equipment, many would suggest the latter.

Also, on the media freedom - yes, Abhisit's administration has shut down a whole load of media, rightly in my honest opinion. Media that are offensive to the monarchy SHOULD be shut down, as with media that spread misinformation and incite violence with political division. Thaksin's administration shut down quite a few themselves, but for altogether different reasons - not as pietous reasons, I would say. The same Human Rights groups were condemning your man Maew at the time, as they will with any government shutting down any media anywhere at any time ofr any reason... this is why I feel that these groups have "cried wolf" too much and now have far less credibility than they should.

I agree with you that the poor feel like TRT were the only govt to help them... this has a lot to do with the problem, as the poor are mostly in debt now, largely thanks to TRT's populist policies of offering credit to those without the means to pay it back.

You seem to think that Thaksin wants the poor to improve their lot whilst the Democrats want to keep them uneducated and where they are. If that is the case, how might you explain the current administration's policy of prolonging free education for everyone whilst the results of the TRT "Help The Poor" policies continue to keep them poor. Thaksin's solution - more credit!

I'm going to have to pose the same questions to you as timekeeper and I earlier referred to: yes, we all know you think Abhisit is the antichrist or similar; but what would PTP offer to improve things and, most importantly, what is their plan of execution? Where are the funds coming from? Where are cuts going to be made? These are important questions that any PTP member or supporter should be able to answer in an instant... but it seems none of them can.

Please don't answer "Maew Rocks"! Feel free to copy and paste an academic reply, but don't be offended when it's ripped apart by those that don't have a political bias (please note that I do, although I'd argue that it's less of an obstacle than some others on all - not both - sides). But, most importantly, answer the question!

[hanuman1]

You would probably defend Hitlers brown shirts and his regimes killing of over 5 million jews in the same way

I won't even dignify that utter nonsense with a reply.

Ooops.

[ianbaggie]

I have noticed that many farangs who are Red haters are resident expats who in some way suffered directly from their actions. Whereas the far larger number of people affected by the PAD actions were mainly tourists and so do not feature so noticeably on these forums.

To rubi..... I'm not sure why you follow me around, perhaps because you consistently seem to misunderstand my comments. You seem to think my previous comment was derogatory to Thais, I'm not clear why.

I live in an area which two years ago was mixed reds and yellows, but more yellow than red, this caused frequent debates but not aggression.

Currently there are now clearly more reds than yellows, political debate is no longer red versus yellow but rather Thais versus the government.

You will ask how I know this, what is my proof? Well if you know Thai culture you will know that because I am the only western farang in this amphur I have an artificial status. So I am expected to attend village meetings, parties held by the local Pooyai and Obador, and religious events. Again, if you know Thai culture, at all such events copious quantities of alcohol are consumed, and the old saying, "in vino veritas", still applies.

Incidentally, the ability to speak some English is neither a red nor yellow perogative, to guess a person's shirt colour on that basis would be ludicrous. I have many friends in the Banglampoo area which being a tourist area means they can communicate in English. When I lived there, 6 years ago, everyone was Yellow; now they are not. I won't go so far as to say they are now red, but they are no longer yellow.

I have the same status as you describe at my wifes village in Sukhothai - everyone there wasnt bothered about politics - now the whole Thai village is VEHEMENTLY anti red!! So are many surrounding villages - My wifes uncle is pooyai - he says "when Thaksin was in he never did anything for Sukhothai, Tak and Pitsanalot - except steal tax money from Bangkok!! I think hes spot on - there are many Thais who see Thaksin for who and what he is.

[Buchholz]

So you are saying that a 0.3% increase by Thailand is "substantial" in comparison to the

2.0% increase for Indonesia (over 6 times the increase of Thailand)

1.9% increase for Cambodia (over 6 times the increase of Thailand)

0.9% increase for Singapore (3 times the increase of Thailand)

0.6% increase for Brunei (2 times the increase of Thailand)

I suppose going from 89th to 85th on the world-wide rankings is also deemed "substantial", yes?

With respect your credibility is limited on matters relating to the Thai military because there is never any criticism of the the greed, corruption, incompetence and political interference.More balance (actually any balance at all) would result in more serious attention.

Balance was precisely what I was providing in regards to the post I was replying to. Putting claims of "substantial" increases in proper perspective relative to what neighboring countries and the rest of the world are doing in regards to military expenditures. While there has been an increased budget in baht terms, when it's relative to the GDP of the country, it could hardly be described in those "substantial" terms.

While you may not see criticisms of military expenditures in my posting, you'll also not see advocacy of military expenditures as well, hence more indication of balance.

In that vein, while we certainly see plenty of criticisms in your own posts, I don't recall any posts voicing advocacy, hence an indication of imbalance on your part if one is to take your insinuations.

I'd just add that you're the last person I am concerned about when my credibility is being questioned as your own self-perceived lofty credibility is far from optimal, but perhaps we can forgo yet another one of your initiating a bickering session by your incessant desire to post more about the poster rather than the content of the post they make.

.

[ianbaggie]

Red/ Thaksin haters on this forum (& in general) can be easily put into one of a few boxes;

1. They have been over subjected to government media/ propaganda

2. The only Thai people they know are yellow as they don't have the language skills to converse meaningfully with the general populace

3. Their business/ job was badly affected by last year's red shirt rally

And the most important one:

4. Those of us who suffered grievous injury under the Thaksin regime and don't appreciate the contemptible attitude shown by the Thaksin apologists towards the rest of us.

Anyone who supports Thaksin supports they way he harmed my family and my children through blatant violations of law and criminal acts. I don't care how much free stuff he gave you after stealing it from me and others like me. He is a criminal and you can not have him back. It is your duty as citizen of the planet to demand he be punished for his actions. If you don't accept this, then you have lost any moral authority to criticize anyone else. Don't tell me Thaksin's conviction were politically motivated. They weren't nearly harsh enough. I was the victim in his machinations.

If the red shirt sympathizers ever expect anyone to care about their own plight, they better start being responsible with their statements and start caring about those their patron ruthlessly injured.

The red shirt supporters are delusional if not downright evil. They are a group of people so caught up in lies that can't even see how truly harmful they are. It is a movement that must be defended against at all costs, even to the point of civil war. Tyranny such as the red shirts espouse can not be allowed to stand in this great nation.

Let us hope that sanity prevails during this next election, and that Thaksin and his supporters crawl back under the rock they crawled out from.

The personal grief brought upon you by those who were part of the red shirt movement prevents you from taking a broader view. It's wholly understandable and I wish there would be some kind of legal mechanism whereby you can gain restitution from those responsible. However, in the wider picture, your very sad experience must be weighed against the experience - and possible naivety - of millions of people who see the red shirt movement as the only catalyst of change in their lives.

You have no right to accuse those millions of a personal attack against you. I wish you and your family all the best. Those two statements are not mutually exclusive.

YES THEY ARE!! he who sees a crime and supports it for whatever reason is part of that crime. My own wife was ordered out of bed whilst in hospital during the red shirts attack on the hospital. These people MUST be held to account for following the directives of a fugitive criminal who offers NOTHING for Thailand but his own greed. They need to be educated that red shirt=PTP=Thaksin is BAD for Thailand even if they lose out on 1000 baht bribery money. People like you bought up in western democracies should have more sense than to follow criminals and their organisations. The red shirts acted as one and must be held responsible as one. As were the Nazis.

[jayboy]

While you may not see criticisms of military expenditures in my posting, you'll also not see advocacy of military expenditures as well, hence more indication of balance.

In that vein, while we certainly see plenty of criticisms in your own posts, I don't recall any posts voicing advocacy, hence an indication of imbalance on your part if one is to take your insinuations.

I have never seen any criticism from you on any aspect of the Thai military at all (and I'm referring to the top brass here not the ordinary soldiers) - its brutality, its lies, its incompetence, its murderous activities, its involvement in the drugs and sex trades, its criminal coup d'etats, its hatred of democracy, its multiple business interests etc etc.

Frankly its corrupt and inappropriate procurement policy is almost the least of its crimes.However if it is to be discussed it should be done ideally in a more sophisticated way than is evident on this thread.That is why I posted the Asia Times link.

I

[jayboy]

My own wife was ordered out of bed whilst in hospital during the red shirts attack on the hospital.

Genuinely sorry to hear this.But precisely who ordered her out of bed, the redshirts or the hospital administration?

[ianbaggie]

So you are saying that a 0.3% increase by Thailand is "substantial" in comparison to the

2.0% increase for Indonesia (over 6 times the increase of Thailand)

1.9% increase for Cambodia (over 6 times the increase of Thailand)

0.9% increase for Singapore (3 times the increase of Thailand)

0.6% increase for Brunei (2 times the increase of Thailand)

I suppose going from 89th to 85th on the world-wide rankings is also deemed "substantial", yes?

With respect your credibility is limited on matters relating to the Thai military because there is never any criticism of the the greed, corruption, incompetence and political interference.More balance (actually any balance at all) would result in more serious attention.

Balance was precisely what I was providing in regards to the post I was replying to. Putting claims of "substantial" increases in proper perspective relative to what neighboring countries and the rest of the world are doing in regards to military expenditures. While there has been an increased budget in baht terms, when it's relative to the GDP of the country, it could hardly be described in those "substantial" terms.

While you may not see criticisms of military expenditures in my posting, you'll also not see advocacy of military expenditures as well, hence more indication of balance.

In that vein, while we certainly see plenty of criticisms in your own posts, I don't recall any posts voicing advocacy, hence an indication of imbalance on your part if one is to take your insinuations.

I'd just add that you're the last person I am concerned about when my credibility is being questioned as your own self-perceived lofty credibility is far from optimal, but perhaps we can forgo yet another one of your initiating a bickering session by your incessant desire to post more about the poster rather than the content of the post they make.

.

JAYBOY - I notice ONCE AGAIN that you fail to provide any links for your accusations of greed, corruption, incompetence and political interference (all crimes which could be more easily attributable to the red shirts/PTP). Personally I thought Bucholtz provided facts which were backed up - thats MORE than any post Ive ever seen from YOU!! Back to the drawing board Jayboy, sorry this one doesnt <snip>!!

[mca]

You really ought to cut down on the coffee ian.

[ianbaggie]

While you may not see criticisms of military expenditures in my posting, you'll also not see advocacy of military expenditures as well, hence more indication of balance.

In that vein, while we certainly see plenty of criticisms in your own posts, I don't recall any posts voicing advocacy, hence an indication of imbalance on your part if one is to take your insinuations.

I have never seen any criticism from you on any aspect of the Thai military at all (and I'm referring to the top brass here not the ordinary soldiers) - its brutality, its lies, its incompetence, its murderous activities, its involvement in the drugs and sex trades, its criminal coup d'etats, its hatred of democracy, its multiple business interests etc etc.

Frankly its corrupt and inappropriate procurement policy is almost the least of its crimes.However if it is to be discussed it should be done ideally in a more sophisticated way than is evident on this thread.That is why I posted the Asia Times link.

I

Many on this forum are grateful to the military for keeping people safe during the red shirt terrorism last year, for getting red of the corrupt fugitive, for supporting the monarchy - i see ONCE AGAIN that you provide no links to your accusations of brutality, lies, incompetence and murder. But then maybe theyre not such big crimes after all when they can be attributed far more easily to the fugitive you spend every post trying to drum up support for. Jayboy - give it up - go and have some fun at the weekend and forget Rachaprasong last year - many otehrs would like to be able to.

[jayboy]

Many on this forum are grateful to the military for keeping people safe during the red shirt terrorism last year

The families of tens of unarmed dead civilians may take a rather different view.

[ianbaggie]

My own wife was ordered out of bed whilst in hospital during the red shirts attack on the hospital.

Genuinely sorry to hear this.But precisely who ordered her out of bed, the redshirts or the hospital administration?

She was pregnant with our first son - when 5 red shirts entered the ward and whilst waving their sharpened sticks around - ordered ALL of the patients out of bed - in that ward as they thought the army were "hiding guns on the ward" of course none were found and no soldiers had entered the hospital. BUT what did happen was my wife gave birht 3 months early and our son was 890 gramms at birth. He was in an incubator for 4 months - then caught pneumonia. You see some of us have first hand experience of red shirt attrocities.

[kathukid]

It is with sureness that the love of my live, Khunying to be, Yingluck will NEVER allow her brother to go to the slammer! Never! Nor should he be in jail..

[jayboy]

My own wife was ordered out of bed whilst in hospital during the red shirts attack on the hospital.

Genuinely sorry to hear this.But precisely who ordered her out of bed, the redshirts or the hospital administration?

She was pregnant with our first son - when 5 red shirts entered the ward and whilst waving their sharpened sticks around - ordered ALL of the patients out of bed - in that ward as they thought the army were "hiding guns on the ward" of course none were found and no soldiers had entered the hospital. BUT what did happen was my wife gave birht 3 months early and our son was 890 gramms at birth. He was in an incubator for 4 months - then caught pneumonia. You see some of us have first hand experience of red shirt attrocities.

I am genuinely very sorry to hear that and despite our differences I hope you accept that's meant sincerely.I also understand your position better with this context.

[ianbaggie]

Many on this forum are grateful to the military for keeping people safe during the red shirt terrorism last year

The families of tens of unarmed dead civilians may take a rather different view.

are you referring to the ones killed with M79 grenades by black shirts and the shield and batton wielding police and soldiers who were murdered by black guards paid for by Thaksin? Or maybe to Seh Daeng killed by a red shirt sniper after his argument with K Thaksin which is logged and has been played on Channel 3 TV news? or maybe to the erd shirts and the nurse who were shot by black shirt guards from the tracks of the BTS. or maybe to the security guard and the fireman beaten/shot respectrively and burned to death inside central world. the red shirts are quick to claim 100 people killed by the Government whilst they include these figures. But then just like you claim about the army. They lie, brutalise, murder etc

[ianbaggie]

My own wife was ordered out of bed whilst in hospital during the red shirts attack on the hospital.

Genuinely sorry to hear this.But precisely who ordered her out of bed, the redshirts or the hospital administration?

She was pregnant with our first son - when 5 red shirts entered the ward and whilst waving their sharpened sticks around - ordered ALL of the patients out of bed - in that ward as they thought the army were "hiding guns on the ward" of course none were found and no soldiers had entered the hospital. BUT what did happen was my wife gave birht 3 months early and our son was 890 gramms at birth. He was in an incubator for 4 months - then caught pneumonia. You see some of us have first hand experience of red shirt attrocities.

I am genuinely very sorry to hear that and despite our differences I hope you accept that's meant sincerely.I also understand your position better with this context.

Thank you for that I respect your understanding - my son is alive and well now hes now 8 KG - his name is Alex (as are most Farang/Thai Boys) and he smiles most of the time. Occasionally my wife will call me in tears and says hes unconscious but luckily we have an oxygen rescusitator and have managed to get him back by pinching his toes. I cant help but think that it would neve have happened if red shirts hadnt invaded a hospital. My wife was showing signs of an early birth but was in no danger of delivering early - I have to ask - do i want the people that caused this in Government - as I said thank you for understanding. But I will always be against the red shirts, the PTP and their fugitive criminal leader.

[hanuman1]

Red/ Thaksin haters on this forum (& in general) can be easily put into one of a few boxes;

1. They have been over subjected to government media/ propaganda

2. The only Thai people they know are yellow as they don't have the language skills to converse meaningfully with the general populace

3. Their business/ job was badly affected by last year's red shirt rally

And the most important one:

4. Those of us who suffered grievous injury under the Thaksin regime and don't appreciate the contemptible attitude shown by the Thaksin apologists towards the rest of us.

Anyone who supports Thaksin supports they way he harmed my family and my children through blatant violations of law and criminal acts. I don't care how much free stuff he gave you after stealing it from me and others like me. He is a criminal and you can not have him back. It is your duty as citizen of the planet to demand he be punished for his actions. If you don't accept this, then you have lost any moral authority to criticize anyone else. Don't tell me Thaksin's conviction were politically motivated. They weren't nearly harsh enough. I was the victim in his machinations.

If the red shirt sympathizers ever expect anyone to care about their own plight, they better start being responsible with their statements and start caring about those their patron ruthlessly injured.

The red shirt supporters are delusional if not downright evil. They are a group of people so caught up in lies that can't even see how truly harmful they are. It is a movement that must be defended against at all costs, even to the point of civil war. Tyranny such as the red shirts espouse can not be allowed to stand in this great nation.

Let us hope that sanity prevails during this next election, and that Thaksin and his supporters crawl back under the rock they crawled out from.

The personal grief brought upon you by those who were part of the red shirt movement prevents you from taking a broader view. It's wholly understandable and I wish there would be some kind of legal mechanism whereby you can gain restitution from those responsible. However, in the wider picture, your very sad experience must be weighed against the experience - and possible naivety - of millions of people who see the red shirt movement as the only catalyst of change in their lives.

You have no right to accuse those millions of a personal attack against you. I wish you and your family all the best. Those two statements are not mutually exclusive.

YES THEY ARE!! he who sees a crime and supports it for whatever reason is part of that crime. My own wife was ordered out of bed whilst in hospital during the red shirts attack on the hospital. These people MUST be held to account for following the directives of a fugitive criminal who offers NOTHING for Thailand but his own greed. They need to be educated that red shirt=PTP=Thaksin is BAD for Thailand even if they lose out on 1000 baht bribery money. People like you bought up in western democracies should have more sense than to follow criminals and their organisations. The red shirts acted as one and must be held responsible as one. As were the Nazis.

So do you think that all Christians are part of the atrocities that have been carried out in the name of Christianity over the years? You need to get a grip.

What happened to your wife was totally out of order, but you would have others suffer for the crimes of a few.