silentnine Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 HI All Rented a house out a few months ago. 15k/month , 30k deposit The landlord provided a gas hob, cheap and nasty 1200bt on top of the worksuface jobby. And a fridge.. The rest i furnished myself. my on gas bottle and plastic pipe connecting to the hob, affixed correctly Yesterday i was cooking my dinner in the frying pan. and flames shot out from under the hob, i think one of the metal pipes had ruptured. the flames & surprise knocked me back and then the drying pan ignited also. i ran out to my car where i had a fire extinguisher. in the 15 seconds this took the flames had lit a plastic/pvc wall mounted cupboard they fitted next to hob i sprayed my fire extinguisher to no avail. ran back out the front of the house looking for help and shouted to a passing motorbike taxi to get me help from village security. i try to re-enter the house to tackle the fire (stupid i guess).. but was beaten back by very thick black smoke now coming from the kitchen and pouring into all other rooms. i charge around the side of the house to the back, the window slightly ajar for the washing machine power coming out. open the window and point the hose at the fire .. fire goes out. whole thing lasted no more than 90 seconds.. a very very long 90 seconds ! Damage to house Gutted kitchen .. and smoke damage throughout with most of my personal things ruined. The landlord has simply said i have to pay They want 25k for cleaning.. and 44k for the kitchen repairs, and cost of repainting throughout, + any other things they find along the way No mention in house rental papers of insurance. i had always been under the impression it was the owners responsibility to insure their building an the tenant to insure their own contents. .. and that a tenant could not insure the building as they did not own it.. so the burning question ... who's responsible. oh .. and an additional potential problem should i decide to not agree that its my fault there hob went boom .. that landlord is a Thai policeman also not so helpfull although i doubt they have fire forensics here in LOS is as the kitchen debri was being moved outside today the local bottle and can collector grabbed all the metal including the hob remains and carted it away to recycle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheeryble Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 also not so helpfull although i doubt they have fire forensics here in LOS is as the kitchen debri was being moved outside today the local bottle and can collector grabbed all the metal including the hob remains and carted it away to recycle He helped himself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentnine Posted May 12, 2011 Author Share Posted May 12, 2011 (edited) also not so helpfull although i doubt they have fire forensics here in LOS is as the kitchen debri was being moved outside today the local bottle and can collector grabbed all the metal including the hob remains and carted it away to recycle He helped himself? out the front of the house .. so free for all . they go thru the bins about 10 times a days i think looking for plastic and metal they even once tried (and failed) to take the nippers somewhat delapadated battery operated sit in car. it is quite broken in place but still works in hindsight i should of piled all the debris inside the small garden but keeping things was not on mind a the time should also add.. spoke to a few real estate agents freinds about this.. got varied replied , but none said pay up. one said go see a lawyer and that there own contracts had insurance & such in the contract stating it was the owners repsonabilty to insure there property. another said to move out immediatly as the hosue was no longer habitable and sue the owner for my rent deposit and damaged good. and the last said he'd argue about it as i should not be repsonsable for there cooker. but be carefull with the policeman issue and also advised that seeign a lawyer here in thailand may not be helpful as they will all says yes lets fight as they would be getting paid and i would probably not really get advised on my chances of success correctly . should a fire be reported to police if no one is hurt ? (just in case i should be doing so) Edited May 12, 2011 by silentnine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guzzi850m2 Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 (edited) Its a very tricky one. Why a gas bottle inside the house?? Ours is outside (Thai kitchen). He should be insured, have you asked him? Check your rental contract very carefully. How much of your own stuff is destroyed/damaged? Where in Thailand? I think you should talk to a lawyer and discuss with him how you stand in this matter and ask him how much for his fee before hire him. They already want almost 70k bath from you so spending maybe 10-15 k bath on a lawyer is money well spend. Good luck Edited May 12, 2011 by guzzi850m2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentnine Posted May 12, 2011 Author Share Posted May 12, 2011 Its a very tricky one. Why a gas bottle inside the house?? Ours is outside (Thai kitchen). He should be insured, have you asked him? Check your rental contract very carefully. How much of your own stuff is destroyed/damaged? Where in Thailand? I think you should talk to a lawyer and discuss with him how you stand in this matter and ask him how much for his fee before hire him. They already want almost 70k bath from you so spending maybe 10-15 k bath on a lawyer is money well spend. Good luck gas bottle inside house under the counter inside cupboard... thats where they said to put it as they had put hte hob there and a hile for the pipe going into the cupboard. i'm lucky the bottle did not explode .. once the fire was out i whent into the smoke (silly me) as i wanted to switch the gas bottle off just in case. very dangerous to do i know they have stated they have no insurance . and there is no mention of insurance or responsabily for the building in the contract our stuff... by euro standards with black smoke damage they would scrap all out things, cloths, sofa, dining table & chairs.. in thailand where repair is easier .. i think we can wash most things and the 100% dead stuff is micorwave , fridge, all the food of course and dining room table & chairs, all pots pans plates cuttlerty .. so problably about 50k of things goen for good on my side.. beds will stink of molten plastic & smoke for a long whiel i suspect.. and we're in pattaya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaiwanderer Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 The OP is responsible for the damage and can't prove any fault on the part of the landlord, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guzzi850m2 Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 The OP is responsible for the damage and can't prove any fault on the part of the landlord, I am no expert in this matter, but I still think he should go and talk to a lawyer asp and try to find out where he stand. This is very scary situation for all who rent as it has turned into a nightmare for the OP and I fell sorry for him. Anybody here who can give advice to the OP? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stgrhe Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 I can regrettably not advice the OP in his case. However, I sincerely advice anyone who is renting, or planning to rent to thoroughly read the renting agreement and ensure that the owner / renter's respective responsibilities are defined. I personally would not rent a place unless the owner has a first class insurance for the dwellings and his belongings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guzzi850m2 Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 (edited) gas bottle inside house under the counter inside cupboard... thats where they said to put it as they had put hte hob there and a hile for the pipe going into the cupboard. i'm lucky the bottle did not explode .. once the fire was out i whent into the smoke (silly me) as i wanted to switch the gas bottle off just in case. very dangerous to do i know they have stated they have no insurance . and there is no mention of insurance or responsabily for the building in the contract our stuff... by euro standards with black smoke damage they would scrap all out things, cloths, sofa, dining table & chairs.. in thailand where repair is easier .. i think we can wash most things and the 100% dead stuff is micorwave , fridge, all the food of course and dining room table & chairs, all pots pans plates cuttlerty .. so problably about 50k of things goen for good on my side.. beds will stink of molten plastic & smoke for a long whiel i suspect.. and we're in pattaya As least you and your family are not hurt thats the main thing, if that bottle had exploded the whole house could have gone. I think there is a flash-back valve mounted just after the valve on the bottle just for a situation like this. The gas bottle should be mounted outside the house, if you have a fire in the kitchen on the gas cooking system, the idea is that you can run outside and close the valve on the bottle and in worst case scenario, an explosion the damage will be limited as it happen outside the house. Living in a house without insurance is a very bad idea, I don't know the rules as I don't rent myself, but I would have thought that the owner shall provide an insurance?? Go talk to a lawyer asp (today), that's the only advice I can give. You will not be charged for a 1/2 hour consultation and you will have an idea how you stand (bring the rental contract and photos of the damage). Good luck Edited May 13, 2011 by guzzi850m2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trogers Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 Cause of fire is probably due to lack of maintenance - flameup of accumulated cooking grease in the hob filters and pipe. This house is probably very old, over 15 years old, and the hob and pipes have not been replaced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarahsbloke Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 (edited) Just move, no forwarding address. If you don't have personal items insurance, your tough luck on the damaged items. If the landlord doesn't have property insurance, his tough luck on the damaged property. It's just that easy. If a person or a business want to insure their property it really is their choice. PS Glad to hear you weren't injured! Edited May 13, 2011 by sarahsbloke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentnine Posted May 13, 2011 Author Share Posted May 13, 2011 Cause of fire is probably due to lack of maintenance - flameup of accumulated cooking grease in the hob filters and pipe. This house is probably very old, over 15 years old, and the hob and pipes have not been replaced. house is new .. hob was 2 months old Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentnine Posted May 13, 2011 Author Share Posted May 13, 2011 Just move, no forwarding address. If you don't have personal items insurance, your tough luck on the damaged items. If the landlord doesn't have property insurance, his tough luck on the damaged property. It's just that easy. If a person or a business want to insure their property it really is their choice. PS Glad to hear you weren't injured! the thought did cross my mind . however if it is my responsabily to fix i have no wish to shaft the owner with a bill himself. they have not been funny with uis about the fire.. so i'm just tryign to ascertain if it is really me who is reponsable if they have no fire insurance. if i rent a car i expect them to be covered should it catch fire or be stolen, less deposit of course.. although in the west if the other party is at fault you don't lose your deposit. also i'm pretty sure they could find me if they wanted to with him being a local policeman and we'd them have issues of it being us being the bad guys as we also then break our rental agreement .. i don't think i'd get much sympathy on here with a post of i'm in the monkey house as i burnt my landlords house down then ran off. our own goods i agree its just tough luck, a shame but still just bad luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarahsbloke Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 (edited) It's really down to how weak you are, and what he can extort from you. Your post makes you sound a little timid and as a policeman he will recognize that right away. Maybe you should just hand over as much as he wants immediately. That's the way Thailand works. I would have played the 'your gas cooker exploded and almost killed me, I want you to replace all the stuff your cooker burnt right now' cards. Breaking a rental agreement seems to mean nothing in Thailand (everyone does it all the time), landlord just keeps the deposit, end of. Edited May 13, 2011 by sarahsbloke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentnine Posted May 13, 2011 Author Share Posted May 13, 2011 It's really down to how weak you are, and what he can extort from you. Your post makes you sound a little timid and as a policeman he will recognize that right away. Maybe you should just hand over as much as he wants immediately. That's the way Thailand works. I would have played the 'your gas cooker exploded and almost killed me, I want you to replace all the stuff your cooker burnt right now' cards. Breaking a rental agreement seems to mean nothing in Thailand (everyone does it all the time), landlord just keeps the deposit, end of. passive not timid... no reason to either look for a fight or create an argument should it not be needed. and my main goal on here is to see if any of the real estate agents or lawyers on here have an opinion should it be in my favour then yes, there hob DID nearly kill me... if not , then swallow and pay. i wil of course argue the course with 2nd & rd quaotations and insist we do as much as we can with our own team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarahsbloke Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 (edited) forgot to say, debt doesn't appear to be a criminal offense in Thailand (my wife owes 230,0000 to a finance company) They send her a strong letter every year (traced through her ID card), after 10 years the problem goes away. So even in the worst case not something for you to be overly concerned with. Edited May 13, 2011 by sarahsbloke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentnine Posted May 13, 2011 Author Share Posted May 13, 2011 forgot to say, debt doesn't appear to be a criminal offense in Thailand (my wife owes 230,0000 to a finance company) They send her a strong letter every year (traced through her ID card), after 10 years the problem goes away. So even in the worst case not something for you to be overly concerned with. i appreaciate all and any advise.. but i am convinced that a run away approach would lead to many problems later. the owner for instance could turn it all around and it could become criminal damage and flight.. thai policemans statemnent Vs farang .. whos goign to win Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guzzi850m2 Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 That is why you should go and talk to a lawyer asp. Police men are scared of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaiwanderer Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 Some very strange ideas here...... Thai policemen afraid of Lawyers - at all? and especially those acting for a Farang? Foreigners shouldn't be concerned with paying debts because some Thai people aren't - all other issues aside no visa problems arising from that? Running away from it is a good idea? Landlords should insure? Tenants should assume they have? Tenants should consider their liabilities after the event? Even if the OP's version of events is believed he doesn't really know whether it was actually the hob that caused the fire or his own fitting of the bottle and hose. If (which appears not here) the landlord had provided the whole hob, bottle and hose all fitted together the OP would still be responsible for the fire unless he could show fault on the landlord's behalf. In any case any evidence he might possibly have been able to rely on is lost. The OP could take legal advice (and lose more money) or concentrate on negotiating that the amount needed to put things right is a little high, if he's so concerned with reducing his outlay here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentnine Posted May 13, 2011 Author Share Posted May 13, 2011 Some very strange ideas here...... Thai policemen afraid of Lawyers - at all? and especially those acting for a Farang? Foreigners shouldn't be concerned with paying debts because some Thai people aren't - all other issues aside no visa problems arising from that? Running away from it is a good idea? Landlords should insure? Tenants should assume they have? Tenants should consider their liabilities after the event? Even if the OP's version of events is believed he doesn't really know whether it was actually the hob that caused the fire or his own fitting of the bottle and hose. If (which appears not here) the landlord had provided the whole hob, bottle and hose all fitted together the OP would still be responsible for the fire unless he could show fault on the landlord's behalf. In any case any evidence he might possibly have been able to rely on is lost. The OP could take legal advice (and lose more money) or concentrate on negotiating that the amount needed to put things right is a little high, if he's so concerned with reducing his outlay here. pretty much what i thought.. glad i did not go on the offensive agianst the landlord and lose any good will .. we've negotiate now and we can use teams we get for cleaning and repairs as long as there builder can check the work. so we have reduced the total bill for the kitchen to 7500 labour + pvc wall cupboard(1800) , pvc door housing for bottome cupborad(1000), and tiles where needed. and then the rest of the cleaning got people in at 300bt per day each sunstantial savings.. best get a quote for insurence me thinks in case this happens agian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheeryble Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 I'm afraid it was you who let the cooker which may have had a fault get taken away. The landlord therefore has no hint of evidence that it wasn't your fault the fire started. It could from his point of view be anything that started the fire. The fact is you were in charge and the active participant. Sorry to tell you this and it may not be fair, but it is reasonable for him to expect you to pay. If you behave like an honest human being and he believes you he may share the losses with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentnine Posted May 13, 2011 Author Share Posted May 13, 2011 (edited) removed.. i double posted Edited May 13, 2011 by silentnine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentnine Posted May 13, 2011 Author Share Posted May 13, 2011 (edited) I'm afraid it was you who let the cooker which may have had a fault get taken away. The landlord therefore has no hint of evidence that it wasn't your fault the fire started. It could from his point of view be anything that started the fire. The fact is you were in charge and the active participant. Sorry to tell you this and it may not be fair, but it is reasonable for him to expect you to pay. If you behave like an honest human being and he believes you he may share the losses with you. well we've been very honest with them as you can see from my remarks about runnign off not beign a good idea. there not offering to contribute in fact there here now trying to tell us they want all the tiles replacing even ones that are not damaged ! .. i i happy (well not happy, but agreeable) to replace things to put it bak as it was.. but not to improve. seems all sorted now anyway.. but a lesson to anyone renting .. make usre your landlord has insurance.. and if they have is there an excess yu would have to pay .. have you even used a repuatibel insurance company.. and if not ,insure yourself (if you can) i've also suggested they get fire insurance for the future .. to cover me also .. even offered to pay the premium. the reply .. more trouble when its worth. to much trouble with polcie and insurance if you have to claim i guess as long as there is a farang who is a tenant who can pay all is well Edited May 13, 2011 by silentnine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaiwanderer Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 i guess as long as there is a farang who is a tenant who can pay all is well Now, Now. You'd successfuly avoided Farang Victim Complex until then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentnine Posted May 13, 2011 Author Share Posted May 13, 2011 i guess as long as there is a farang who is a tenant who can pay all is well Now, Now. You'd successfuly avoided Farang Victim Complex until then. lol .. at least i am still smiling ... thailand is all about learning (nice way to put it hahha) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheeryble Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 (edited) Personally I've once had police arbitrate and arrange crash damages against a Thai for me, two other crashes I was paid immediately by the Thais involved. As for insurance I don't do it but I've heard of no payout problems. An intelligent person understands fair payouts ensure insurance companies future growth and existence, and there are plenty of intelligent people making decisions here. Anyway well done the worst is over for you....unless the workmen smoke. Edited May 13, 2011 by cheeryble Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
user82374298374 Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 >so the burning question ... I see what you did there. >who's responsible. They are Thais, you are farang. The farang is always responsible. Welcome to Thailand! ;> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuban Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 OP did you not think to consider the fire fighting needs when you moved into the property? Did you not turn off the gas the moment the incident occurred? But you live and learn. 25k buys a lot of cleaning - if you seek to reduce this cost consider doing some yourself. If you could prove (or considered) a fault with the gas stove why allow it to be disposed of? No mention of insurance in the contract? (So you know to discuss the "what if?" in future contracts.) A bit of fire safety and quicker thinking reactions would have saved you 70K Baht. When I bought our fire extinguishers and fire blanket the Thai shop keeper asked if I was planning on having a fire. Once you have bought them - it's a good idea to know how to use them effectively. (Then train your family.) Glad you are not writing this from a hospital burns unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentnine Posted May 16, 2011 Author Share Posted May 16, 2011 ah the joy , the pain .. the panic.. only in thailand.. depsite my best efforts here.. the landlady& lord who have doen nothign but pester us non stop during these repairs have come round agians today .. and they got angry .. well i've snapped i've bent over backwards.. bought gallons & gallons of high quality paint and primer. .had cleaining teams in for days.. and today .. there not hppy .. thye have gone round picking nits.. nothign is right for them... it all boils down to at the begining they wanted there overpriced team in to do things.. and suprise suprise .. they now want to send them in again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarahsbloke Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 it all boils down to at the begining they wanted there overpriced team in to do things.. and suprise suprise .. they now want to send them in again And let's face it, when you leave, they won't be returning the deposit either! I hope you told them to take the loss from the deposit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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