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Expat Survey Shows 84% Happy In Thailand, Thaksin Not Popular


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Posted

In parts the survey didn't give flexibility to answer; in other words you had to give an answer that you may not have been happy with. When you put this type of question into a survey you are just stacking results. The reasoning on this is that you could not move on in the survey without an answer so you would not be able to give a result for the survey. I know I answered questions in the survey but felt very uncomfortable with the answer. If I didn't answer I couldn't do the survey, it would flick me back to I answered.

A neutral answer or No comment answer is also powerful result, as it still gives a result in that the answers set out are not the ones the person doing the survey would give.

I couldn't understand why there were questions in there about Thaksin. What ever the answer expats don't have political sway in the country. Its something that I would have in the back of my mind but that is where it stays because I don't have a political say in Thailand. If my opinion counted yeah sure put it in, but I think you are playing with fire otherwise.

The survey in part may have purpose, but results with survey's need to be looked at carefully as it is easy to corrupt results. When this happens all you end up with is a piece of paper or garble on your computer screen. Surveys are very hard to fine tune and you may need to do a few focus group trials before they go out.

Yup, that's why qualitative research in the social sciences can be so insightful, especially in sociology, where heavy statistical work is done with surveys. When a surveyee is given a predefined set of answers (to a subjective, opinion oriented question) to choose from, you naturally run into problems of accuracy. Nevertheless, I took part in the survey, and am interested in the results.

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Posted

Nice to see 30% is Thais here to talk with us farangs.

I posted on another thread and asked if I was the only Thai here and most said yes or that there was 2 or 3 other Thai's.

I also like to read the headings news but do not like most of the comments. From what I have seen now can such a big percentage say they love living in Thailand when all they do is complain about it here?

As far as foriegners posting about our politics goes, I think that this is a good site where they can "vent" their opinions however Our University has conducted many surveys over the years and our students have found that with most foriegners, normally the first girlfriend they have here in Thailand decides what political party they lean towards. For instance if a 35 year old foriegner's first gf is from Issaan and her family are farmers and support a certain party or person then it is most likely that they will follow this through the rest of their stay in Thailand wether they change girlfriends or not. Or visa versa where a foriegner finds his first gf in Bangkok whos family is part of the Elite then the opposite is found.

Most foriegners after living here for awhile then start to study or read up on our politics and form their own opinions which is also not a great idea because with the Media and many who cannot read or understand Thai news, the information they find is very missleading. Even as a Thai the information most commeners find is also missleading so it really is not a true opinion that is formed yet an influence of their new family (foriegners I mean) and lack of understanding of the Thai language or our "inside" political system.

Posted (edited)

Was told being nonsensical resulted from some folks didn't get to understand what I suggested in a post

plus some nasty guys try to show off their superiority over other members and try to find out others' mistakes especially in writing. Some can be very stubborn arguing over tinpot bits. on the other hand, some are very helpful and informative. The Savior and his enemies here!!!!!!!!

That was your post that was removed for being 'nonsensical' ?? Wow. I think some people are so far detached from opinions outside of a particular segment (roughly defined as the segment that thinks The Nation is fair and balanced) that they genuinely can't imagine any other / differing viewpoints, and label them trolls or label them as being nonsensical.. Some recognition of the big divide in viewpoints that currently exists not only in Thai society but also among foreign residents would be very good, with equal amounts of respect and support being shown to all sides / all viewpoints.

Edited by WinnieTheKhwai
Posted

it's the moderation that's the problem and stops people participating freely.

A whopping 82.6% of respondents believe Thaivisa moderating to be Fair, with 95% indicating they would recommend Thaivisa to their friends.

:whistling:

Posted

Thaksin is very popular with me, guess I am a rare breed of farang :whistling: so are the red shirts :jap:

same for me here.....and I personally belive this poll is not corect (:

New government is rediculous....check out for yourself what THEY have really done for the citizens of Thailand since Abhisit and his

yellow Chinese gang came to power - NOTHING

have you been on an Emergency Room in a Public hospital at nightime for example? go check it out and you know what i am talking about.......a single student doc

for 50 Emergencys....thats your yellow reality !!! :jap:

It is odd that when reds get really angry they go the racist route and go on about the 'Chinese gang'. And then when one points out that Thaksin is of Chinese ancestry, their hearing aids are suddenly switched off. What is worse are the those who claim to be on the left. They pretend not to hear as well. Just as with Thaksin's anti-gay diatribes. That gets a 'hear nothing' switch as well.

Posted

I know many, many TV members and have never had this view expressed but I guess some may hold it

It's called the vocal minority. You know, the ones who think the forum rules are just a rough guideline. :D

Posted

I know many, many TV members and have never had this view expressed but I guess some may hold it

It's called the vocal minority. You know, the ones who think the forum rules are just a rough guideline. :D

I'm guessing most don't read the rules and just want to debate freely without bias jap.gif so the majority stay silent or post 'sensitively' knowing the wrath that could follow - many members I know have been suspended at some point - two I know who were one-time sponsors were banned - seems draconian to most of us - but it is a business to be fair and being deferential is part of it

Posted

Was told being nonsensical resulted from some folks didn't get to understand what I suggested in a post

plus some nasty guys try to show off their superiority over other members and try to find out others' mistakes especially in writing. Some can be very stubborn arguing over tinpot bits. on the other hand, some are very helpful and informative. The Savior and his enemies here!!!!!!!!

That was your post that was removed for being 'nonsensical' ?? Wow. I think some people are so far detached from opinions outside of a particular segment (roughly defined as the segment that thinks The Nation is fair and balanced) that they genuinely can't imagine any other / differing viewpoints, and label them trolls or label them as being nonsensical.. Some recognition of the big divide in viewpoints that currently exists not only in Thai society but also among foreign residents would be very good, with equal amounts of respect and support being shown to all sides / all viewpoints.

yep...........they should take that in consideration. Sometimes, they can just ask before making a decision.

But Roo and Boo,from the moderator team once used to send me a message after removing a post and fixed it back later with a minor rectification.

That was because of my late-at-night quality of writing. well, many times make typos too. In Overall and general, the team has been OK so far.:D

BTW, almost forget!

"many or them, forum members make comments without reading /skimming through the articles." is the fact...

some just read only the headings. So separate fact from fiction then. haha.:guitar:

Posted

Unfortunately I missed this survey, I'm one of the irregular visitors. Would it be too much to ask that admin message all members before the next survey ? You will more than likely get a larger "turnout of voters", hopefully making the survey even more accurate. Some interesting results, I personally am extremely unhappy at the inept internet service I get, at 460 Mbps, in northern Thailand. I can't believe how far Thailands telecom industry has fallen behind the rest of the world / region. :realangry:

Turning to the moderators, personally I've never had a problem with any of them, they seem fair enough to me, but then again I don't try to wind up or annoy other members. Perhaps if some members were more moderate in their postings, they wouldn't need to be moderated by others...just a suggestion.:D

As for Thailands political scene, there doesn't seem to be a single party or politician that actually puts the people first, it seems to be bribe / cajole / threaten their way into power, then elbow as many as they can out of the way, so they get a clear run at the reason the want to be in politics - MONEY !!! But then, they are hardly the only politicians in the world to have this attitude. Just seems a shame Thai politicians never do anything practical to improve the chances of the poor, the education system is abysmal, and will never improve while they have people in charge who use pitful excuses to avoid using English as a second language in Thailand.

OK rant over - found the results enjoyable and interesting, let's hope for a larger participation next time.

Posted

Keep to topic. No political discussion in this thread please. Further posts will be removed.

Steady on!! One of the results of the poll was about K Thaksin's popularity amongst TV members. You could not have got that information unless you asked for members' views on that particular subject - so it is on topic.

Also, your poll gives results for which political party members of TV think would be the best govt for Thailand and who they would vote for if they could. You could not have got that information unless you asked for members' views on that particular subject - so it is on topic, a political topic from which political discussion is likely to follow.

You should not be surprised if people want to talk about these aspects of the survey results. You also know from experience that it would not be long before strongly held views are expressed.

Posted

How do:

36% own a house in Thailand[

if only:

No visa, I am a Thai citizen 2.1%

Residence permit 3.7%

Seems to me 30.2% are also liars? How accurate is this poll really?

The two are not mutually exclusive. Youu can own a property without having a residence permit.

You can control it, but not own it.

You can own the house, but not the land

But how can you get into your house when you're not allowed to enter her land?

I was missing all the guys living in the northeast, even here in the lower northeast are so many foreigners, some of them don't even know the difference between a real and a computer mouse.

But everywhere are plenty of them who do use this webpage.

Another point I had missed was how many of them can actually communicate in Thai?

The questions- for my opinion- were just about age, telephone and internet providers.

How many of us living here for 10+ years are still with the same lady? :jap:

Posted

Another point I had missed was how many of them can actually communicate in Thai?

Might be a good idea to just do that section of the poll in Thai language. Then you're not taking people's word for how well they understand the local language.

How many of us living here for 10+ years are still with the same lady? :jap:

I'm with the same woman for 10+ years yes. ;) Good question.

Posted

Thaksin is very popular with me, guess I am a rare breed of farang :whistling: so are the red shirts :jap:

same for me here.....and I personally belive this poll is not corect (:

New government is rediculous....check out for yourself what THEY have really done for the citizens of Thailand since Abhisit and his

yellow Chinese gang came to power - NOTHING

have you been on an Emergency Room in a Public hospital at nightime for example? go check it out and you know what i am talking about.......a single student doc

for 50 Emergencys....thats your yellow reality !!! :jap:

Your statement is really confusing. The so called new government has done many things, but there are too many problems in this country. Not even Superman with his mate Batman could change all into a better country.

Talking about the yellow Chinese gang, please feel free to google, read and get some information what’s really going on here.

Where did Thaksin come from?

I have been in Emergency rooms at hospitals many times; it’s still how Khun Thaksin set it up. This isn’t Abhisit’s fault, because there are so many ministers, in this case the Ministry of Health.

Pay doctors more money, give them a better education and everything will change.

What has the lack of qualified and enough doctors to do with yellow reality? You can’t change this over night. If the reds wouldn’t always start to make problems, there might have been a few more changes. :jap:

Posted (edited)

Another point I had missed was how many of them can actually communicate in Thai?

Might be a good idea to just do that section of the poll in Thai language. Then you're not taking people's word for how well they understand the local language.

How many of us living here for 10+ years are still with the same lady? :jap:

I'm with the same woman for 10+ years yes. ;) Good question.

It was more about the ability to speak some Thai to get around.

It must be weird to live in the middle of nowhere, not being able to pronounce Sao Sao tee nai khrap.....

My point being is that so many foreigners just don't want to learn the spoken language here, but they want their Barbie to learn for example German, or Turkish.:lol:

I'm also one out of a few who's is still together with my wife for 10+ years. Going through hell and back. Good day Khun Khwai......:jap:

Edited by sirchai
Posted

Does this survey really matter???...We are... and always have been tolerated guest of the Kingdom of Thailand.

We have little or NO RIGHTS...Owning a Motor Bike, Car Mobile Phone...Holding a Bank Account is as good as it gets.

Thaksin made a lot more hoops for the dross element of Tourist/Ex-Pat community,to jump through...Rightfully so.

I do not see a problem with his return...Or the current Administration.But then i know my place...and respect i am a guest and always will be.

Go Thailand..... enjoy..Rent...Pay your way..obey the rules Then go your way...must and is... is the best way.

Posted

It was more about the ability to speak some Thai to get around.

It must be weird to live in the middle of nowhere, not being able to pronounce Sao Sao tee nai khrap.....

My point being is that so many foreigners just don't want to learn the spoken language here, but they want their Barbie to learn for example German, or Turkish.:lol:

I'm also one out of a few who's still together with my wife for 10+ years. Going through hell and back. Good day Khun Khwai......:jap:

I have to disagree with the post about language.

I went to school for over 2 years and have a vocabulary of at least 2000-3000 words, however i found locals make no effort to EVEN try to understand a foreigner.

Endless times i would go into a shop and speak Thai, yet the answers come in English.

Endless times i have gone to a restaurant and was ordering in Thai, HOWEVER every time it was a mainly Thai place they simply refused to understand me.

English speaking people, can understand a variety of accents, slang and people who can hardly speak English, i mean we even learned to understand "my friend you" phrase, yet locals make no effort unless you speak fluent Thai.

So if anything, you may find many people(foreigners) do speak Thai, but choose not to, because they are always misunderstood or not understood at all and again not because they speak wrong, but because locals make no effort to understand.

Also, there are so many provinces here with their own dialect that it makes it all that much harder to communicate.

Personally i can have a half decent conversation with a lawyer or a doctor in BKK, yet can not understand 80% of what Taxi driver says.

And lastly, personally i do not recall any times when local tried to correct me or advise me on the word or the tone, so again personally i have given up speaking even though i do understand when i am spoken to.

Posted

Maybe it's time to rejuvenate the members. Imagine the same survey in 2031: average age will be 70 - 79!!!!

Of course, most of the farang living in Thailand are old chap like us but I see, on a daily basis, young guys LIVING in the country, mostly in Bangkok, I mean expats not tourists.

They would probably not be interested by the useless discussions / forums about Thaksin but they obviously like the country and have something to tell about it.

At this moment, where do they meet (on line)?

Well, perhaps they are just happy to stay here and do not mind about politics and criticisms about Thailand.

That depends on what you consider youngwink.gif

I mean VERY young. 20's. I dunno how they make a living in Thailand, maybe Mum's monnies.

Plenty teach English. Several I've met after doing a degree that can't get them a job back home, but come here for work and experience on their CV. Some stay. Some after meeting women here. Or doing a stint teaching English to top up travelling funds.

Some come here like me after meeting their girlfriend/wife while at Uni together in their own country.

Lots work for companies in BK.

My wifes friend says her condo block is mainly farangs in their twenties and thirties who work via the web. Doubtful if they have work permits.

Posted

Keep to topic. No political discussion in this thread please. Further posts will be removed.

Steady on!! One of the results of the poll was about K Thaksin's popularity amongst TV members. You could not have got that information unless you asked for members' views on that particular subject - so it is on topic.

Also, your poll gives results for which political party members of TV think would be the best govt for Thailand and who they would vote for if they could. You could not have got that information unless you asked for members' views on that particular subject - so it is on topic, a political topic from which political discussion is likely to follow.

You should not be surprised if people want to talk about these aspects of the survey results. You also know from experience that it would not be long before strongly held views are expressed.

Have a read of post 70 ...

The survey results may of course be discussed, but this thread is not the place for political debate.
Posted

How do:

36% own a house in Thailand[

if only:

No visa, I am a Thai citizen 2.1%

Residence permit 3.7%

Seems to me 30.2% are also liars? How accurate is this poll really?

The two are not mutually exclusive. Youu can own a property without having a residence permit.

You can control it, but not own it.

You can own the house, but not the land

But how can you get into your house when you're not allowed to enter her land?

I was missing all the guys living in the northeast, even here in the lower northeast are so many foreigners, some of them don't even know the difference between a real and a computer mouse.

But everywhere are plenty of them who do use this webpage.

Another point I had missed was how many of them can actually communicate in Thai?

The questions- for my opinion- were just about age, telephone and internet providers.

How many of us living here for 10+ years are still with the same lady? :jap:

Trampoline.

Posted (edited)

It was more about the ability to speak some Thai to get around.

It must be weird to live in the middle of nowhere, not being able to pronounce Sao Sao tee nai khrap.....

My point being is that so many foreigners just don't want to learn the spoken language here, but they want their Barbie to learn for example German, or Turkish.:lol:

I'm also one out of a few who's still together with my wife for 10+ years. Going through hell and back. Good day Khun Khwai......:jap:

I have to disagree with the post about language.

I went to school for over 2 years and have a vocabulary of at least 2000-3000 words, however i found locals make no effort to EVEN try to understand a foreigner.

Endless times i would go into a shop and speak Thai, yet the answers come in English.

Endless times i have gone to a restaurant and was ordering in Thai, HOWEVER every time it was a mainly Thai place they simply refused to understand me.

English speaking people, can understand a variety of accents, slang and people who can hardly speak English, i mean we even learned to understand "my friend you" phrase, yet locals make no effort unless you speak fluent Thai.

So if anything, you may find many people(foreigners) do speak Thai, but choose not to, because they are always misunderstood or not understood at all and again not because they speak wrong, but because locals make no effort to understand.

Also, there are so many provinces here with their own dialect that it makes it all that much harder to communicate.

Personally i can have a half decent conversation with a lawyer or a doctor in BKK, yet can not understand 80% of what Taxi driver says.

And lastly, personally i do not recall any times when local tried to correct me or advise me on the word or the tone, so again personally i have given up speaking even though i do understand when i am spoken to.

Thanks for your post. I a kind of disagree with your statement. Taxi drivers in Bangkok are mostly from the Isan. It's always a great pleasure to meet cab drivers from the same or a nearby area for me to have a little chat. They then take the shortcut, not the 'longer' way.

My point being is that understanding and speaking Thai for those who settled down is very helpful. One example is teaching little kids at an outside English program.

It's much easier when you can come up with the meaning of a word, or sentence in Thai, before explaining something where you'd need an hour in English.

You won't find many people here where I'm living who can speak English, so a little problem with your car, some food you'd like to buy or asking for a particular place could turn into a nightmare.

I've met so many guys who really believe their wives will manage all for them, but isn't it nice when you understand almost all when other people talking about you?

To be perfectly honest, Thais who are going abroad have to learn the spoken language there, but many foreigners here think that all Thais should be able to communicate in English, or other languages.

Sorry, I'm way off topic, I was just thinking it's worth to learn another language. Cheers.

Edited by sirchai
Posted

Thanks for your post. I a kind of disagree with your statement.

KIND OF disagree? :lol: I can scarcely imagine an area where Thais would revert to English, unless the spoken Thai was completely unintelligible. Some specific sois in Pattaya perhaps. But even in Pattaya and Bangkok I mostly speak Thai with people, unless their English is really very good.

Posted

Thanks for your post. I a kind of disagree with your statement.

KIND OF disagree? :lol: I can scarcely imagine an area where Thais would revert to English, unless the spoken Thai was completely unintelligible. Some specific sois in Pattaya perhaps. But even in Pattaya and Bangkok I mostly speak Thai with people, unless their English is really very good.

do you find markets and retail stores scary? where do you shop?

While you mostly speak Thai, ever taken into consideration if people understand what you speak and not just nod the head?

Nah, scratch that, i am sure your Thai is fluent and flawless, just like 99% of the Thai Visa memberswink.gif

Posted

Thanks for your post. I a kind of disagree with your statement.

KIND OF disagree? :lol: I can scarcely imagine an area where Thais would revert to English, unless the spoken Thai was completely unintelligible. Some specific sois in Pattaya perhaps. But even in Pattaya and Bangkok I mostly speak Thai with people, unless their English is really very good.

I agree. My Thai is poor, but I know a few words. When I try to speak Thai, they LOVE it! And speak back to me slowly and with simple words. I've rarely had them convert to English to communicate, even when their English is really good. Except when I totally screw things up.

Posted (edited)

How do:

36% own a house in Thailand

if only:

No visa, I am a Thai citizen 2.1%

Residence permit 3.7%

Seems to me 30.2% are also liars? How accurate is this poll really?

Possibly :house was used as a general term to also include condos? Of course expats can own condos...and believe it is possible without residence permit....at least I purchased mine without having to suply it. Our land and townhomes/shophouses are a bit different story. These are owned under the business that we formed. 2 Thai partners and 1 farang. The farang has more power than the others as far as document signing even though he only owns a 49% share. Nothing can legally be sold, transferred,leased, or altered in any way unless the farang also signs the legal documents...so I believe there are many ways to be considered as owner of the property be it a house land or whatever

Edited by laolover
Posted

do you find markets and retail stores scary? where do you shop?

Scarcely (imagine), not scary. :) But I shop at all of the big hypermarkets, the occasional up-market supermarket, and the local market down the street that they have 3-4 times a week.

While you mostly speak Thai, ever taken into consideration if people understand what you speak and not just nod the head?

I wouldn't accomplish much if I didn't..

Nah, scratch that, i am sure your Thai is fluent and flawless, just like 99% of the Thai Visa memberswink.gif

Pretty fluent, not flawless.

Posted

Nice to see 30% is Thais here to talk with us farangs.

I posted on another thread and asked if I was the only Thai here and most said yes or that there was 2 or 3 other Thai's.

I also like to read the headings news but do not like most of the comments. From what I have seen now can such a big percentage say they love living in Thailand when all they do is complain about it here?

As far as foriegners posting about our politics goes, I think that this is a good site where they can "vent" their opinions however Our University has conducted many surveys over the years and our students have found that with most foriegners, normally the first girlfriend they have here in Thailand decides what political party they lean towards. For instance if a 35 year old foriegner's first gf is from Issaan and her family are farmers and support a certain party or person then it is most likely that they will follow this through the rest of their stay in Thailand wether they change girlfriends or not. Or visa versa where a foriegner finds his first gf in Bangkok whos family is part of the Elite then the opposite is found.

Most foriegners after living here for awhile then start to study or read up on our politics and form their own opinions which is also not a great idea because with the Media and many who cannot read or understand Thai news, the information they find is very missleading. Even as a Thai the information most commeners find is also missleading so it really is not a true opinion that is formed yet an influence of their new family (foriegners I mean) and lack of understanding of the Thai language or our "inside" political system.

Imtersting points. But the last point of not understanding Thai (although it is helpful for sure) , is not quite accurate. It is not necessary to be able to read much of the propaganda produced by corporate bought and paid for rags. It is very helpful to be aware of the corporate connections with the various players of politics. This is all available in english in corporate reports etc...It is interesting to note the strong connection of Thaksin with giant CP owner/largest shareholder of True,lotus, 7/11s, Makro and billions of dollars of other coporate entities

. Do your homework and the truth begins to reveal itself...in any language.Follow the Baht and much becomes visible. Then it is just a matter of liking what you see or not. It is amazing how many political favors are given to corporate donors...so many high ranking positions in gov filled by corporate (cp etc) execs as "gifts" for political support, financing and whatever else is required to win an election in Thailand. Maybe its universal?

If the information regarding stock trades and shareholders, directors in english is incorrect or misleading then there is little hope.

Posted

You make an assumption that people are confused when they state that they've lived here for years, but aren't on an extension of stay.

Personally, I have lived here for over 10 years (bought the house with my wife back in 2000), but as I've always worked abroad and do occasionally have to actually go into the office, I've never been in country long enough (3 months+ at a time) to do the extension of stay at immigration, so I am still using a non-immigrant visa.

I would imagine I'm also not the only one. For instance oil-workers doing 4-on/4-off in Africa (Angola/Nigeria/Equatorial Guinea) could live in Thailand for years with nothing more than their 30 day entry stamps.

Posted

Maybe it's time to rejuvenate the members. Imagine the same survey in 2031: average age will be 70 - 79!!!!

Of course, most of the farang living in Thailand are old chap like us but I see, on a daily basis, young guys LIVING in the country, mostly in Bangkok, I mean expats not tourists.

They would probably not be interested by the useless discussions / forums about Thaksin but they obviously like the country and have something to tell about it.

At this moment, where do they meet (on line)?

Well, perhaps they are just happy to stay here and do not mind about politics and criticisms about Thailand.

That depends on what you consider youngwink.gif

I mean VERY young. 20's. I dunno how they make a living in Thailand, maybe Mum's monnies.

I have a very young friend, he is now 25 years old. He has been an English teacher in Bangkok for 6 years already.

Posted

It was more about the ability to speak some Thai to get around.

It must be weird to live in the middle of nowhere, not being able to pronounce Sao Sao tee nai khrap.....

My point being is that so many foreigners just don't want to learn the spoken language here, but they want their Barbie to learn for example German, or Turkish.:lol:

I'm also one out of a few who's still together with my wife for 10+ years. Going through hell and back. Good day Khun Khwai......:jap:

I have to disagree with the post about language.

I went to school for over 2 years and have a vocabulary of at least 2000-3000 words, however i found locals make no effort to EVEN try to understand a foreigner.

Endless times i would go into a shop and speak Thai, yet the answers come in English.

Endless times i have gone to a restaurant and was ordering in Thai, HOWEVER every time it was a mainly Thai place they simply refused to understand me.

English speaking people, can understand a variety of accents, slang and people who can hardly speak English, i mean we even learned to understand "my friend you" phrase, yet locals make no effort unless you speak fluent Thai.

So if anything, you may find many people(foreigners) do speak Thai, but choose not to, because they are always misunderstood or not understood at all and again not because they speak wrong, but because locals make no effort to understand.

Also, there are so many provinces here with their own dialect that it makes it all that much harder to communicate.

Personally i can have a half decent conversation with a lawyer or a doctor in BKK, yet can not understand 80% of what Taxi driver says.

And lastly, personally i do not recall any times when local tried to correct me or advise me on the word or the tone, so again personally i have given up speaking even though i do understand when i am spoken to.

I agree 100% with your sentiments. They often don't even try to understand us.

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