Bro'S Before Hoe'S

[trisailer]

I didn't have high expectations for serious discussion around this topic, but I figured that it could at least get beyond the kindergarten level.

I obviously overestimated peoples ability to read and understand what they have read. Feel free to return to your bar stool.

[sarahsbloke]

I didn't have high expectations for serious discussion around this topic, but I figured that it could at least get beyond the kindergarten level.

I obviously overestimated peoples ability to read and understand what they have read. Feel free to return to your bar stool.

There is nothing wrong with being gay. Learn to live with your sexuality and accept who you are.

[jayjayjayjay]

Real men don't drink through straws.

Real men do not ride tandem on 110cc scooters. They sure as hell don't ride, what?, tri-dem?

Real men don't pull their suitcases on tiny wheels. They hoist up that 50 kilo duffel bag and sling it over their shoulder.

Real men don't drive mini-vans. Not even if they have 10 kids. Pack 'em into the '68 Bronco.

Real men fart in front of their girlfriends.

Real men pee on the seat.

Real men don't take showers.

Real men open the door for their ladies

Real men don't do dishes

Real men can't iron

Real men put the bacon on the table

Edited May 20, 2011 by jayjayjayjay

[jayjayjayjay]

I didn't have high expectations for serious discussion around this topic, but I figured that it could at least get beyond the kindergarten level.

I obviously overestimated peoples ability to read and understand what they have read. Feel free to return to your bar stool.

Try looking at what you have written from another perspective. The majority of men here, including myself, know who we are and are comfortable with that. Having to be part of a 12 man group to find yourselves is perplexing enough for the majority to comes to grip with. Your statement about "Most men live in isolation from other men because....." is totally ridiculous, so how can it develop into an intellectual conversation.

Personally I think you have too many issues because you are so self absorbed. If you focused on just being a husband and father you wouldn't need all theisAmerican shrink crap. That's what is screwing you up more than anything. My father took to me with a leather belt, but i certainly deserved it. So Fking what! Get over it. I did 10 minutes later when mum asked me to clean up the mess i made. . Why can't you? Still to self absorbed? So why not just get over it?????????

Edited May 20, 2011 by jayjayjayjay

[IanForbes]

I didn't have high expectations for serious discussion around this topic, but I figured that it could at least get beyond the kindergarten level.

I obviously overestimated peoples ability to read and understand what they have read. Feel free to return to your bar stool.

I understood what you were getting at from your first post. I've said similar things only worded differently. Although we are both humans, men and women ARE different. And, as the French say...

Vive La Differance! If I just want a friend to hang out with then I'll pick a man most of the time because we have more in common. That only changes when there are specific interests that both men and women enjoy. I enjoy dancing, so as a heterosexual man I will pick a woman as a partner. But, if I want to watch a sport on television I'll hang out with the guys. And, both sexs love to tell stories about the idiosyncracies of the opposite sex... ie... toilet seat up or down, how one squeezes the toothpaste, undies hanging in the bathroom to dry, etc.

[moe666]

I am American and I couldn't get beyond the first paragraph. Your life experiences make you a man not setting around with your buddies wondering it you are. trying to work out your problems with a group is a recipe for faliure.

[Familyonthemove]

Perhaps women live longer because we talk to each other about our emotional problems?

Which is why I think the OP is right in trying to bring men together to talk to each other.

Now where on earth did this silly idea come from that men don't talk to each other?

You talkin' to me? YOU TALKIN' TO ME?? Wanna fight?

[Kwasaki]

There were these 2 buddies, Mike and Jerry.

Jerry says to Mike; imagine you attended a party, got seriously drunk and then the following morning you woke up in bed lying next to a guy - would you tell anyone about it?

Mike answers; certainly not, that would be too embarrassing. Then Jerry asks Mike; fancy coming to a party tonight?

Obviously Jerry is trying to get into deep conversation with his friend Mike who's a bit slow on the uptake.

[Kwasaki]

Perhaps women live longer because we talk to each other about our emotional problems?

Which is why I think the OP is right in trying to bring men together to talk to each other.

Now where on earth did this silly idea come from that men don't talk to each other?

You talkin' to me? YOU TALKIN' TO ME?? Wanna fight?

Surely if you have read through you have come to the conclusion that the lady thinks she understands men. :lol:

[StreetCowboy]

...

...

When I first came to Thailand I did worry that I might have sex with a man (ladyboy)

Then I just decided it was only another item on the menu and stopped worrying.

And.....so, did you go ahead and have sex with a ladyboy afterwards ?

Cheers,

Jem

Only got as far as talking and a bit of a cuddle while playing pool.

Am I in touch with my sensitive side do you think yet?

That's spelt "Pull".

Anyway, least said, soonest mended. If we don't take them to the grave, they're scarcely secrets

At least its better than talking to another man

SC

EDIT: and you've still got something to look forward to...

Edited May 21, 2011 by StreetCowboy

[trisailer]

Reading the responses to my post makes it clear why men are responsible for so much wreckage in society.

If this topic makes you uncomfortable or 6.7% more gay than you better stop reading now because this next post may put you over the edge. If you think that being beaten with a leather belt was OK for you than I suggest you ask your children how they felt about it when you did it to them because you were 100 times more likely to beat your own kids. You don't just get over it, you pass it along.

Raising the issue of what it means to be a strong, honorable man in the modern world should not threaten your sexuality unless you already have some doubts. There is a world of information out there on this topic because most men seeking balance are not afraid of self examination. I stated that I am a better man because of my exploration of the topic and I know that my son is a far better man because I made the effort and not pass down to him the dysfunction that is the direct result of mens failure to get a grip.

Ignorance truly is bliss and I am well aware of that. You don't know what you don't know and if your happy to live with that and the products of your ignorance have at it. The statistics which record the wreckage of mens inability to navigate their lives clinging to ignorance are staggering. If you were all so well adjusted I would think that suicide, depression, anxiety, domestic violence, and the multitude of compulsive behaviors would not exist. Unfortunately they do.

• Every 17 minutes another life is lost to suicide. Every day 86 Americans take their own life and over 1500 attempt suicide.
• Suicide was the eighth leading cause of death of all Americans, the third leading cause of death for young people 15-24.
• For every two victims of homicide in the U.S. there are three deaths from suicide.
• There are now twice as many deaths due to suicide than due to HIV/AIDS.
• Between 1952 and 1995, the incidence of suicide among adolescents and young adults nearly tripled.
• White men accounted for 72% of all suicides. Women are more likely to attempt suicide. However, men are four times more likely to die from suicide than are women.
• Suicide accounts for l in 100 deaths. The majority of those who die in this way are men.
  A worrying recent trend is the increasing rate of suicide among younger men (a trend not seen among young women). The majority of these men have not asked for help before their deaths.
• Social isolation: those who kill themselves often live alone and have little contact with others. They may have been recently widowed or have never married
• The reasons why the number of men taking their own lives has risen in recent years are far from clear. All of the proposed explanations share a common feature – the changing role of men in society.
• Boys don't cry
  In many societies, expressing emotions, for example sadness, fear, disappointment or regret, is seen as being less acceptable for boys than girls.
• Troubling new data show there are an average of 950 suicide attempts each month by veterans who are receiving some type of treatment from the Veterans Affairs Department.
• Since WW2 more veteran men have died from suicide than from war.
• Here's another telling statistic that validates men's mental health. Between 600,000 and 6 million women are victims of domestic violence each year, and between 100,000 and 6 million men, depending on the type of survey used to obtain the data. The health-related costs of intimate partner violence exceed $5.8 billion each year.
• I don't know what the statistics for men behaving badly in Thailand are but I'm guessing that it is worse. One only has to read the endless stories of men who come here and go off the rails. The US State Department has recently added a requirement for a K-1 visa that the sponsor has not been convicted of domestic violence. No doubt they saw a problem with mens inability to cope with the demands of a multicultural relationship.

There's more. Twenty percent of women and ten percent of men are physically abused by men. Depression and anxiety are the fastest growing medical conditions in the US. Over half the population are on antidepressants and sleep aids already. There is a direct connection between these conditions and the growing obesity problems.

These terrible issues are the direct result of mens "isolation" and their misunderstanding of modern mens roles. The numbers are roughly the same for gay men as straight men. The latest growing problem is male on male rape in the military.

So again I ask what is wrong with trying to learn something about the issues that produce all this wreckage? I don't mean to suggest that everyone should go out and join a mens group. It worked for me 20 years ago, but I give it little thought these days. I only raised the issue because I am wittiness daily to pathetic men who seem to lack an ounce of dignity and honor.

If your life is happy and balanced, good for you. It is likely due to having strong male role models. If you are one of the many who think it gay to have an open mind well, I feel sorry for you.

[sarahsbloke]

All your statistics could be due to the fact that men are increasingly marginalized in western society.

Change the laws back so that women can only bring up children in a family unit and I suspect all the trends would be reversed.

Nothing to do with men talking to each other, that doesn't help unless you intend to shag the other men.

All about mens access to women and heterosexual sex being increasingly restricted.

Edited May 21, 2011 by sarahsbloke

[onionluke]

Why are you giving us all this American crap ? This is Asia man , people struggle to feed their families .

[trisailer]

"This guy is that pansy"

To andrewbkk; Where I come from calling a another man a pansy is only done face to face. Calling me that without knowing me makes you either a fool or a coward.

So, which it it?

[sarahsbloke]

"This guy is that pansy"

To andrewbkk; Where I come from calling a another man a pansy is only done face to face. Calling me that without knowing me makes you either a fool or a coward.

So, which it it?

Someone calling you a 'Pansy' is only insulting if you are homophobic.

(or gay but frightened by your sexuality ... watch the movie American Beauty if you don't know what I mean)

Edited May 21, 2011 by sarahsbloke

[mario299]

[quote name='trisailer'

. If you think that being beaten with a leather belt was OK for you than I suggest you ask your children how they felt about it when you did it to them because you were 100 times more likely to beat your own kids.

Bull Crap, my father never beat me, but he did hit my older brother with a belt once. My brother never hit his children...ever. What does that do to your 100 times more likely figure???

And then there are your "facts":

• WHERE DO YOU COME UP WITH THESE FIGURES ???
  The majority of these men have not asked for help before their deaths.
• Social isolation: those who kill themselves often live alone and have little contact with others. They may have been recently widowed or have never married
• The reasons why the number of men taking their own lives has risen in recent years are far from clear. All of the proposed explanations share a common feature – the changing role of men in society.
• Boys don't cry..
• ..YES THEY DO, AT LEAST WHERE I COME FROM. NOT SURE ABOUT WHERE YOU COME FROM.
  In many societies, expressing emotions, for example sadness, fear, disappointment or regret, is seen as being less acceptable for boys than girls.
• IN ALL SOCIETIES THIS IS LESS ACCEPTABLE FOR BOYS, AND ALWAYS HAS BEEN
• Troubling new data show there are an average of 950 suicide attempts each month by veterans who are receiving some type of treatment from the Veterans Affairs Department.
• HAVE YOU EVER DEALT WITH THE VA? CAN LEAD TO THOUGHTS OF SUICIDE
• Since WW2 more veteran men have died from suicide than from war.
• Here's another telling statistic that validates men's mental health. Between 600,000 and 6 million women are victims of domestic violence each year, and between 100,000 and 6 million men, depending on the type of survey used to obtain the data. The health-related costs of intimate partner violence exceed $5.8 billion each year.
• COME ON NOW, YOUR LEAVING A SPREAD OF 5,400,000 IN YOUR FIRST STATISTIC AND 5,900,000 IN YOUR SECOND !!
• I don't know what the statistics for men behaving badly in Thailand are but I'm guessing that it is worse. One only has to read the endless stories of men who come here and go off the rails. The US State Department has recently added a requirement for a K-1 visa that the sponsor has not been convicted of domestic violence. No doubt they saw a problem with mens inability to cope with the demands of a multicultural relationship.

YOU GUESS AN AWFUL LOT !!!

If your life is happy and balanced, good for you. It is likely due to having strong male role models. If you are one of the many who think it gay to have an open mind well, I feel sorry for you.

Your PSYCHOBABBLE is tough to follow, and it seems to me you have some pretty deep issues. I think you left yourself pretty wide open with your post, but it has at least been pretty good fun for the majority of the people that didn't take you seriously. Best of luck to you in your quest to find balance. If you are now in Thailand, then I suggest you forget most of your American statistics, they don't really apply here.

Chok dee

mario299 :jap:

[Ulysses G.]

Ignorance truly is bliss and I am well aware of that.

Congratulations on obtaining Nirvana in this lifetime. :jap:

[mstribling]

Your really something.

You ask us what we think, and then attack us then we tell you we think this is a bunch of BS.

You simply make up statistics as if we are numbskulls, and attempt to talk down to everyone who doesn't subscribe to your way of thought.

You drag all of your American baggage with you, and spread it out, and expect us to agree with you.

You talk about being strong. You blamed all of your problems on your father being a drunk. Thats a cop out.

A lot of mens fathers were/are drunks. You know what that means? It means they like getting drunk.

This is why I left America. Everyone wants an excuse. No responsibility.

Honor. Really? "bro's before ho's"

One thing I'm still trying to figure out still, is you always refer to your Thai grandmother. Which one of your parents are Thai?

[mstribling]

Ignorance truly is bliss and I am well aware of that.

Congratulations on obtaining Nirvana in this lifetime. :jap:

[Crushdepth]

I didn't have high expectations for serious discussion around this topic, but I figured that it could at least get beyond the kindergarten level.

If you aren't interested in alternative viewpoints, why did you post? Did you think everyone would feel the same?

Edited May 21, 2011 by Crushdepth

[jayjayjayjay]

I am replying direct regarding the accusation my father is a bad man for taking to me with a leather belt. This could not be further from the truth. He was and still is, at 73yrs a model father. I would not have changed a moment on this earth with him. I do not have to ask my children what it is like for me to punish them. I have my own methods, and a leather belt ain't used. But that is the point. I still grew up normal. I passed nothing on as you obviously are challenged with. Entirely false statement on your part, actually utter BS. I still know that I deserved the punishment I got. I was a rat-bag. I was naughty and copped the consequences. I did however choose my own path as to how to punish my daughters. Now, if I had a son, there is a good chance a leather belt might have been used. Then again, maybe not. The point is. I am normal and can deal with my own lot, where for some reason you can't. I guess you've just got a couple of screws loose. I suggest tighten them up without pharmaceuticals, therapy or groups. This is a path exercising your own brain training it to become a decision maker with the doubts you live with. I love my dad, you hate yours. I feel sorry for you..

As for suicide, it's for wimps. My best friend did so, and he is an utter f8king asshol_e for doing so. It was real fun dealing with his father, wife, brother, 25 staff and 7 year old daughter. I am happy for as many to go and do this as they want. If they are so stupid to leave responsibility to other that have to sweep up the mess them good riddance. Enough of your statistical crap and I feel sorry I live in a society on the brink. Go jump!

[trisailer]

That's my point. I don't have any baggage because of the work I've done.

My data came from the CDC and the US military. I talked about American statistics because I'm an American. Feel free to do your own research if you question my conclusions.

My point stands; men are like wrecking balls causing all sorts of havoc because they are isolated from each other. The reason is that they fear that having normal human feelings will get them labeled as gay. Thank you for proving my point.

Forget about the statistics just read TV and the Pattaya papers and you can see it for yourself.

I was an excellent sailor because I took the time to learn the theory and then put it into practice thus gaining experence and then constantly improving. My willingness to learn how to stay off the rocks made sailing a very pleasent experence. Having a willingness to learn about myself and put it into practice makes my life a very pleasent experence as well.

[StreetCowboy]

I am replying direct regarding the accusation my father is a bad man for taking to me with a leather belt. This could not be further from the truth. He was and still is, at 73yrs a model father. I would not have changed a moment on this earth with him. I do not have to ask my children what it is like for me to punish them. I have my own methods, and a leather belt ain't used. But that is the point. I still grew up normal. I passed nothing on as you obviously are challenged with. Entirely false statement on your part, actually utter BS. I still know that I deserved the punishment I got. I was a rat-bag. I was naughty and copped the consequences. I did however choose my own path as to how to punish my daughters. Now, if I had a son, there is a good chance a leather belt might have been used. Then again, maybe not. The point is. I am normal and can deal with my own lot, where for some reason you can't. I guess you've just got a couple of screws loose. I suggest tighten them up without pharmaceuticals, therapy or groups. This is a path exercising your own brain training it to become a decision maker with the doubts you live with. I love my dad, you hate yours. I feel sorry for you..

As for suicide, it's for wimps. My best friend did so, and he is an utter f8king asshol_e for doing so. It was real fun dealing with his father, wife, brother, 25 staff and 7 year old daughter. I am happy for as many to go and do this as they want. If they are so stupid to leave responsibility to other that have to sweep up the mess them good riddance. Enough of your statistical crap and I feel sorry I live in a society on the brink. Go jump!

Its people like you that make people like Trisailor seem reasonable.

I'm still not sure about the masturbation workshops, but I suppose if you're going to do something, it always pays to learn from the experts;

if you're just doing the same thing over and over again with no criteria for success but your own satisfaction, you might as well be wanking

SC

[trisailer]

I am replying direct regarding the accusation my father is a bad man for taking to me with a leather belt. If your father hit you with a belt he is an abuser and a failure. Children are born with a innate desire to please their parents. When you physacally abuse a child your admiting a failure to recognize this fact and use it mold your child. The law says he's an abuser. This could not be further from the truth. He was and still is, at 73yrs a model father. I would not have changed a moment on this earth with him. I do not have to ask my children what it is like for me to punish them. I have my own methods, and a leather belt ain't used. It begs the question; if it was so effective for you why don't you use it on your kids? But that is the point. I still grew up normal. People who are dysfunctional as a result of abuse don't generally know it. It is manifested as I indicated. I passed nothing on as you obviously are challenged with. Entirely false statement on your part, actually utter BS. I still know that I deserved the punishment I got. I was a rat-bag. I was naughty and copped the consequences. I did however choose my own path as to how to punish my daughters. Now, if I had a son, there is a good chance a leather belt might have been used. Then again, maybe not. The point is. I am normal Says you. Have you ever been tested? How would you know? and can deal with my own lot, where for some reason you can't. I don't use pharmacuiticals and I knew enough to know that I was going to be a lousy parent if I didn't change myself. I guess you've just got a couple of screws loose. I suggest tighten them up without pharmaceuticals, therapy or groups. This is a path exercising your own brain training it to become a decision maker with the doubts you live with. I love my dad, you hate yours. I feel sorry for you.. You shouldn't feel sorry for me. I've had an extradinary life and continue to enjoy the benefits of the balance I've achieved. I don't hate my father. I see him for who he was. He couldn't cope with the responsability that he chose to take on. He used to tell us that he was too easy on us because his father used a horse whip on him.

As for suicide, it's for wimps. That's a bold statement from a grown man who uses a cartoon charactor as an avitar and who only distinction is as a NRA member. IT speaks volumes. My best friend did so, and he is an utter f8king asshol_e for doing so. It proves my point better than all my statistics could that your best friend killed himself. Was he able to talk to you or was he afraid that you would think that was gay? It was real fun dealing with his father, wife, brother, 25 staff and 7 year old daughter. I am happy for as many to go and do this as they want. If they are so stupid to leave responsibility to other that have to sweep up the mess them good riddance. Enough of your statistical crap and I feel sorry I live in a society on the brink. So we agree that society is on the brink just not on the underlying cause Go jump!

Thank you for being such a good example of my point.

[sarahsbloke]

My point stands; men are like wrecking balls causing all sorts of havoc because they are isolated from each other. The reason is that they fear that having normal human feelings will get them labeled as gay. Thank you for proving my point.

You still haven't explained

1) Why you or any other man would be worried about being labeled as gay.

2) Why you think it is wrong to be gay.

[RedFxTrade]

I am replying direct regarding the accusation my father is a bad man for taking to me with a leather belt. This could not be further from the truth. He was and still is, at 73yrs a model father. I would not have changed a moment on this earth with him. I do not have to ask my children what it is like for me to punish them. I have my own methods, and a leather belt ain't used. But that is the point. I still grew up normal. I passed nothing on as you obviously are challenged with. Entirely false statement on your part, actually utter BS. I still know that I deserved the punishment I got. I was a rat-bag. I was naughty and copped the consequences. I did however choose my own path as to how to punish my daughters. Now, if I had a son, there is a good chance a leather belt might have been used. Then again, maybe not. The point is. I am normal and can deal with my own lot, where for some reason you can't. I guess you've just got a couple of screws loose. I suggest tighten them up without pharmaceuticals, therapy or groups. This is a path exercising your own brain training it to become a decision maker with the doubts you live with. I love my dad, you hate yours. I feel sorry for you..

As for suicide, it's for wimps. My best friend did so, and he is an utter f8king asshol_e for doing so. It was real fun dealing with his father, wife, brother, 25 staff and 7 year old daughter. I am happy for as many to go and do this as they want. If they are so stupid to leave responsibility to other that have to sweep up the mess them good riddance. Enough of your statistical crap and I feel sorry I live in a society on the brink. Go jump!

High dose of Paranoia there? I don't think he said your father was a bad man, and that it was a direct accusation. Perhaps your more insecure that you realise, judging from the relatively aggressive tone of your post. It is not fine for adults to hit adults in society, but by your reasoning it is fine for an adult to hit a child, just because they "deserve it" Is that because they are bigger than them, and they can. Whats the intrinsic difference between hitting a child or an adult? Are they not both people? Sounds more like bullying to me. It teaches that hitting someone is a legitimate way to express your opinions/emotions about a problem or matter. And it would seem that you have accepted that trait yourself as you said ,

"Now, if I had a son, there is a good chance a leather belt might have been used...."

There are many other ways to discipline a child, and taking chunks out of them is not one them. Certainly don't think it is a chapter in the "Good Parenting Handbook"...

[bobbin]

I am replying direct regarding the accusation my father is a bad man for taking to me with a leather belt. This could not be further from the truth. He was and still is, at 73yrs a model father. I would not have changed a moment on this earth with him. I do not have to ask my children what it is like for me to punish them. I have my own methods, and a leather belt ain't used. But that is the point. I still grew up normal. I passed nothing on as you obviously are challenged with. Entirely false statement on your part, actually utter BS. I still know that I deserved the punishment I got. I was a rat-bag. I was naughty and copped the consequences. I did however choose my own path as to how to punish my daughters. Now, if I had a son, there is a good chance a leather belt might have been used. Then again, maybe not. The point is. I am normal and can deal with my own lot, where for some reason you can't. I guess you've just got a couple of screws loose. I suggest tighten them up without pharmaceuticals, therapy or groups. This is a path exercising your own brain training it to become a decision maker with the doubts you live with. I love my dad, you hate yours. I feel sorry for you..

As for suicide, it's for wimps. My best friend did so, and he is an utter f8king asshol_e for doing so. It was real fun dealing with his father, wife, brother, 25 staff and 7 year old daughter. I am happy for as many to go and do this as they want. If they are so stupid to leave responsibility to other that have to sweep up the mess them good riddance. Enough of your statistical crap and I feel sorry I live in a society on the brink. Go jump!

High dose of Paranoia there? I don't think he said your father was a bad man, and that it was a direct accusation. Perhaps your more insecure that you realise, judging from the relatively aggressive tone of your post. It is not fine for adults to hit adults in society, but by your reasoning it is fine for an adult to hit a child, just because they "deserve it" Is that because they are bigger than them, and they can. Whats the intrinsic difference between hitting a child or an adult? Are they not both people? Sounds more like bullying to me. It teaches that hitting someone is a legitimate way to express your opinions/emotions about a problem or matter. And it would seem that you have accepted that trait yourself as you said ,

"Now, if I had a son, there is a good chance a leather belt might have been used...."

There are many other ways to discipline a child, and taking chunks out of them is not one them. Certainly don't think it is a chapter in the "Good Parenting Handbook"...

Well said, Red.... ( Hey I'm a poet!)

Please forgive the following....

Gotta love a good smackdown!

[mstribling]

I am replying direct regarding the accusation my father is a bad man for taking to me with a leather belt. If your father hit you with a belt he is an abuser and a failure. Children are born with a innate desire to please their parents. When you physacally abuse a child your admiting a failure to recognize this fact and use it mold your child. The law says he's an abuser. This could not be further from the truth. He was and still is, at 73yrs a model father. I would not have changed a moment on this earth with him. I do not have to ask my children what it is like for me to punish them. I have my own methods, and a leather belt ain't used. It begs the question; if it was so effective for you why don't you use it on your kids? But that is the point. I still grew up normal. People who are dysfunctional as a result of abuse don't generally know it. It is manifested as I indicated. I passed nothing on as you obviously are challenged with. Entirely false statement on your part, actually utter BS. I still know that I deserved the punishment I got. I was a rat-bag. I was naughty and copped the consequences. I did however choose my own path as to how to punish my daughters. Now, if I had a son, there is a good chance a leather belt might have been used. Then again, maybe not. The point is. I am normal Says you. Have you ever been tested? How would you know? and can deal with my own lot, where for some reason you can't. I don't use pharmacuiticals and I knew enough to know that I was going to be a lousy parent if I didn't change myself. I guess you've just got a couple of screws loose. I suggest tighten them up without pharmaceuticals, therapy or groups. This is a path exercising your own brain training it to become a decision maker with the doubts you live with. I love my dad, you hate yours. I feel sorry for you.. You shouldn't feel sorry for me. I've had an extradinary life and continue to enjoy the benefits of the balance I've achieved. I don't hate my father. I see him for who he was. He couldn't cope with the responsability that he chose to take on. He used to tell us that he was too easy on us because his father used a horse whip on him.

As for suicide, it's for wimps. That's a bold statement from a grown man who uses a cartoon charactor as an avitar and who only distinction is as a NRA member. IT speaks volumes. My best friend did so, and he is an utter f8king asshol_e for doing so. It proves my point better than all my statistics could that your best friend killed himself. Was he able to talk to you or was he afraid that you would think that was gay? It was real fun dealing with his father, wife, brother, 25 staff and 7 year old daughter. I am happy for as many to go and do this as they want. If they are so stupid to leave responsibility to other that have to sweep up the mess them good riddance. Enough of your statistical crap and I feel sorry I live in a society on the brink. So we agree that society is on the brink just not on the underlying cause Go jump!

Thank you for being such a good example of my point.

Your confused. I never said that. I know it gets hectic...thinking about how to talk down to people, but like many of your claims, your wrong. Your mis-qouting someone.

Your right, the entire use of a Avatar is ridiculous. Thanks for setting the Internet straight.

Clever retort about the NRA, you felt that didn't you

Strange, I never thought it a distinction, but i'm not in the habit imagining stuff either.

I did encounter what appears to be a biker gang outside 7-11. I could tell they were a gang because they all had orange vests on.

I suppressed my primal fear, and then paid one of the gang members 20 baht to give me a ride.

It was crazy.

[F1fanatic]

I didn't have high expectations for serious discussion around this topic, but I figured that it could at least get beyond the kindergarten level.

I obviously overestimated peoples ability to read and understand what they have read. Feel free to return to your bar stool.

Try looking at what you have written from another perspective. The majority of men here, including myself, know who we are and are comfortable with that. Having to be part of a 12 man group to find yourselves is perplexing enough for the majority to comes to grip with. Your statement about "Most men live in isolation from other men because....." is totally ridiculous, so how can it develop into an intellectual conversation.

Personally I think you have too many issues because you are so self absorbed. If you focused on just being a husband and father you wouldn't need all theisAmerican shrink crap. That's what is screwing you up more than anything. My father took to me with a leather belt, but i certainly deserved it. So Fking what! Get over it. I did 10 minutes later when mum asked me to clean up the mess i made. . Why can't you? Still to self absorbed? So why not just get over it?????????

The problem is that most men don't 'know who they are' - they only know who they want to be/should be.

I have to agree about the shrink crap - but still think most men need to think more.

[trisailer]

"If you aren't interested in alternative viewpoints, why did you post? Did you think everyone would feel the same?"

I am interested in other viewpoints. I just haven't heard any yet. Only accusations that I must be gay if I bring it up which proves my point that men are not able to talk about feelings and apparently would rather kill themselves

It's easy to see why.