Which International School Selection In Cm ?

[chaoyang]

I was shocked when I was at Prem in 2005 the sudden increase in number of Korean students. And the funny thing is that all of them live in the same hard-core "Christian" Korean house somewhere near NIS. They later started to move into the boarding program of the school not able to withstand how strictly the Korean house is run.

<snip>

Before this thread winds down I would like to clarify a point: When the Korean kids were abruptly pulled out of NIS and sent to Prem, to her credit the NIS manager refused to get into some sort of bidding war with the kids as hostage. She noted that offering special rates was not fair to the rest of the parents.To my knowledge NIS does not negotiate variable rates.

That said, I wish the interested parents the best in forming a group to assist in the continued improvement of international schools in Chiang Mai, which on the whole, actually do a good job. I no longer live in Thailand, but if any insight I could offer from my 14 years of involvement on the scene would be of any use, please feel free to PM me.

[scotbeve]

Hi Scott,

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.

But I'm not suggesting that parents should organize immediately into some "pressure group" to start making demands of the schools.

Instead, I mean that families can pay a role in helping schools improve. First we must figure out our common expectations, then find ways to evaluate schools accordingly. One step could be a simple survey, in order to find what concerns are most important to most people. (One of the problems we face is that the entire issue of comparing and improving schools is ruled by anecdote and hearsay.)

A survey could yield information like:

% of families who feel that their school sometimes loses good teachers because of low salaries

% of parents who feel that they would be more likely to consider the school "good" if it published more financial information

% families who would like the school to emphasize more in particular areas, such as sports or volunteerism and community engagement

Imagine having comparable info among all the schools. The goal is not to come up with precise statistics--naturally these are largely subjective assessments--but to structure some discussion on what's needed.

After a first survey, asking these questions should become an annual activity, while also asking where the families have seen improvements over time. This would be public information, provided free to all and available on the web. It would be a resource for parents old and new in helping to choose a school and focus on how to help. The smart schools would see the value, learn how to listen to these results, and see their ratings increase.

Atop this foundation, those who are interested could take further steps. Working in "their own" schools, they can advocate for change. I've met lots of committed parents who are always trying to pitch in and help their school, with varying success, so this might be a way to help them do more.

If anyone wants to develop the idea further, let's start a new thread. I don't want to hijack this one any longer. I'm not going to start the thread myself because I want to see if anyone else is curious enough to take a step. I'll step along with you.

Puwa

Puwa,

I'll just throw this in - perhaps mapguy will get involved.... I'll watch this and if nobody else starts a new thread - then I will. Though mapguy is quite a bit more eloquent than I....

This sounds great to me..... Anybody else think that a rather comprehensive survey and / or poll should be proposed for not only parents but the students as well (brings it closer to home...) throughout the CM international school community? Following this, an assessment "check list" could be drawn up for every parent, teacher, student, and prospective students to peruse and check off on a regular basis. Sounds like responsible business ethics to me. And why just stop at the CM intl school community? Responsible actions with the balances / checks could go further into the academic community with the parents, teachers, and students throughout the globe.

[letitbe]

I am responding here on behalf of Lanna International School regarding an accusation within this thread of the school employing a convicted felon (posts now completely removed from the thread by ThaiVisa due to being utter nonsense)

Thighlander, who clearly has a personal grudge against one of our employees, posted that one of our employees, referred to by nationality, was a convicted felon. Although this has now been removed I want to set the record straight for those who have been following this thread. LIST does not employ convicted felons. All of our staff have to go through police checks before they join us. Further, we have been actively involved during the last two years in creating rigorous Child Protection Policies that are being adopted by a number of Chiang Mai international schools. We are also currently piloting a new (additional) series of police checks for UK employees on behalf of the UK's Child Exploitation and Online Protection organisation (http://www.ceop.police.uk/). We take child protection matters very seriously indeed.

Please don't believe everything you read on this forum! I assume Thighlander has been banned from further postings. I certainly hope so. Our member of staff libelled by the comments posted in this forum is currently considering whether legal action is appropriate, as is the school.

if he has been banned and post removed why bring it to everyones attention. That is really stupid since a lot always believe their is no smoke without fire. As far as vetting by Thai police is concerned you are having a joke I assume. The thai police are totally useless as you should know if you've been here any length of time. Its a bout as much use as doctors note you needed to get to renew your visa some years ago which everyone knew you got for 50 baht without any doctor ever seeing you. Any usA or UK authorities are not much better. How many have passed so called vetting and then later its found person was a convicted child molester or worse. And that before even starting on Christian (so called) priests proved to be child molesters and worse. The accusations may well be unfounded but please do not give all this BS

[JimShortz]

... As far as vetting by Thai police is concerned you are having a joke I assume. The thai police are totally useless as you should know if you've been here any length of time. Its a bout as much use as doctors note you needed to get to renew your visa some years ago which everyone knew you got for 50 baht without any doctor ever seeing you. Any usA or UK authorities are not much better. How many have passed so called vetting and then later its found person was a convicted child molester or worse. And that before even starting on Christian (so called) priests proved to be child molesters and worse. The accusations may well be unfounded but please do not give all this BS

I don't know that he has been banned. Do you? What BS would that be then?

Police checks are from home countries + any other places where people have been working... What do you suggest as a better system?

[Loaded]

if he has been banned and post removed why bring it to everyones attention. 1. That is really stupid since a lot always believe their is no smoke without fire. As far as vetting by Thai police is concerned you are having a joke I assume. 2. The thai police are totally useless as you should know if you've been here any length of time. Its a bout as much use as doctors note you needed to get to renew your visa some years ago which everyone knew you got for 50 baht without any doctor ever seeing you. Any usA or UK authorities are not much better. 3. How many have passed so called vetting and then later its found person was a convicted child molester or worse. And that before even starting on Christian (so called) priests proved to be child molesters and worse. The accusations may well be unfounded but 4. please do not give all this BS

1. It's usually lots of smoke without fire on TV.

2. I couldn't find a reference to Thai police in the post your are quoting. Could you point it out? Or are you just making it up?

3. Could you post a link to just one in an International school in Thailand?

4. Please follow your own advice

Edited June 1, 2011 by Loaded

[scotbeve]

Yes folks, it looks like the thread is getting fragmented... would anybody like to get on with "an assessment" thread starting from : ???

[CMX]

If we return to Mapguy's post #57, which deservedly claims much praise, we see it suggested that staff salaries (among operational costs) might be estimated at 75-85%. I thought when reading it, at first, that such a figure explained in part the costs of educating a child here.

But obviously that percentage applies only to a fraction of the school's costs, not the total budget. Land acquisition and new construction can represent grand enrichment of owners and improvements in capital for non-profits. Meanwhile, direct profits are invisible to us and might even amount to large slices of the pie.

Thus, it cannot be said that teacher salaries in this community are the reason for high tuition. (I ain't one, but know a few - the tuition is mainly missing them and going into higher, if deeper, pockets.)

Edited June 2, 2011 by CMX

[scotbeve]

I think many parents, teachers, and students would still like to see some sort of financial report from / for the intl. schools they are affiliated with....

[Loaded]

Thus, it cannot be said that teacher salaries in this community are the reason for high tuition. (I ain't one, but know a few - the tuition is mainly missing them and going into higher, if deeper, pockets.)

Apart from the International Schools that are subsidized by religious organizations, you might be surprised by the lack of profit in International schools. Overheads in these schools are massive.

I remember an article on Concordian International school in Bangkok published in the Learning section of the Bangkok Post. The owner of the school hadn't turned a profit in any of the 10 years the school had been running. It was heavily subsidised by the owner's family's other businesses.

Edited June 2, 2011 by Loaded

[scotbeve]

Thus, it cannot be said that teacher salaries in this community are the reason for high tuition. (I ain't one, but know a few - the tuition is mainly missing them and going into higher, if deeper, pockets.)

Apart from the International Schools that are subsidized by religious organizations, you might be surprised by the lack of profit in International schools. Overheads in these schools are massive.

Loaded,

No, it wouldn't surprise me in the least. Perhaps it would behoove the schools to do just that (enlighten us) then especially when there is a report to justify their teachers salaries. Salaries which appear to have a considerable disparity from school to school....

[Loaded]

I think many parents, teachers, and students would still like to see some sort of financial report from / for the intl. schools they are affiliated with....

I think until schools are forced to become companies and then are controlled by company law, this won't happen. At the moment individuals, groups of investors and religious organizations are allowed to open, operate and own schools. Their accounting procedures are private.

[folium]

... As far as vetting by Thai police is concerned you are having a joke I assume. The thai police are totally useless as you should know if you've been here any length of time. Its a bout as much use as doctors note you needed to get to renew your visa some years ago which everyone knew you got for 50 baht without any doctor ever seeing you. Any usA or UK authorities are not much better. How many have passed so called vetting and then later its found person was a convicted child molester or worse. And that before even starting on Christian (so called) priests proved to be child molesters and worse. The accusations may well be unfounded but please do not give all this BS

I don't know that he has been banned. Do you? What BS would that be then?

Police checks are from home countries + any other places where people have been working... What do you suggest as a better system?

Sadly it look like Thailander has not been muzzled yet. Yesterday he was posting racist photos on another thread. Hopefully that means a second yellow card and an early bath, giving us all a break from his contributions.

Edited June 2, 2011 by folium

[folium]

Thus, it cannot be said that teacher salaries in this community are the reason for high tuition. (I ain't one, but know a few - the tuition is mainly missing them and going into higher, if deeper, pockets.)

Apart from the International Schools that are subsidized by religious organizations, you might be surprised by the lack of profit in International schools. Overheads in these schools are massive.

Loaded,

No, it wouldn't surprise me in the least. Perhaps it would behoove the schools to do just that (enlighten us) then especially when there is a report to justify their teachers salaries. Salaries which appear to have a considerable disparity from school to school....

In almost all fee-paying schools the world over the biggest element of expense in terms of running costs is teacher compensation (often 75%+).

The CM international schools are cheap in terms of fees on a comparative basis with schools in Bangkok and most other countries (obviously PTIS is a glaring exception). This is reflected in the salaries of non-Thai teachers in those schools (again except PTIS), which are some of the lowest on offer worldwide (I believe only Sri Lankan schools pay less). Why do they do it? Probably for the same set of reasons that we all live here.

Anecdotal evidence suggest that profit margins in most of the intl schools here are slim to none, due to a combination of high overheads, low volume of students and varying levels of management expertise. Capital expenditure is a separate but massive issue and one that all the schools either face (CMIS, Grace), are still paying off (NIS), or will have to face at some stage to stay competitive (Lanna).

The competition element also explains the relatively low cost of private education in CM, and the situation may be further exacerbated as it seems that the new massive Siwalee development SW of the airport plans to include a "state-of-the-art international school". Whether or not this actually happens we will have to wait and see but it would mean that CM would then have a serious degree of overcapacity (which would therefore keep fees low, if the schools can stay open).

Edited June 2, 2011 by folium

[Diablo Bob]

Well, I just got an eye opener.....

I am exploring a new position in China, and was looking at the cost of an International School education for my children. NIS (Nanjing International School) is charging $26,000 USD per year per child!

I won't be complaining about the cost of NIS in Chiangmai anymore.....

[KayCee]

We've lived overseas for our jobs for years, and our kids' schooling has generally cost between $12,000 and $20,000 per year, and these were in places with much lower demand than, say China, so $26,000 for Nanjing International School doesn't surprise me. We also are quite accustomed to having to pay capital improvement fees for a fund that will take care of future school needs to replacing aging equipment or plant, or expand, none of which we would probably benefit from. But then again, presumably prior parents' capital contributions paid for the science equipment or computers our kids use now, so we never were too bothered by that. What we do believe, though, is that the schools are better with a high degree of transparency and parental involvement and consultation on the decisions the schools face about investment, direction, expansion, etc. There will always be some things that are kept confidential - we don't need to know a specific teacher's salary for instance - but knowing what the standards are for teacher recruitment would be a different matter. We've found that generally with more openness comes less grumbling or problems, but that's just been our experience.

[scotbeve]

Well, I just got an eye opener.....

I am exploring a new position in China, and was looking at the cost of an International School education for my children. NIS (Nanjing International School) is charging $26,000 USD per year per child!

I won't be complaining about the cost of NIS in Chiangmai anymore.....

Bob,

As for our kids tuition, I've never really batted an eye at the cost... Just the opposite.... I'm not "rich" but we live comfortably here. In reply of mine to our parent advisory committee, I stated that I wouldn't mind some more for tuition IF IT GOES TO TEACHER RETENTION INCENTIVES first and foremost.

[Diablo Bob]

We've lived overseas for our jobs for years, and our kids' schooling has generally cost between $12,000 and $20,000 per year.

Was that 12-20K per child?

[Diablo Bob]

Well, I just got an eye opener.....

I am exploring a new position in China, and was looking at the cost of an International School education for my children. NIS (Nanjing International School) is charging $26,000 USD per year per child!

I won't be complaining about the cost of NIS in Chiangmai anymore.....

Bob,

As for our kids tuition, I've never really batted an eye at the cost... Just the opposite.... I'm not "rich" but we live comfortably here. In reply of mine to our parent advisory committee, I stated that I wouldn't mind some more for tuition IF IT GOES TO TEACHER RETENTION INCENTIVES first and foremost.

Scott, I agree with you, I would gladly pay more for my kids education especially if I knew that it was going to the teachers.

But I do have a problem accepting a $75000 bill for 3 kids to go to school. Assuming that the Nanjing school is paying their teachers around $48,000/yr. and there is only 20 kids to a class, I only see a $2250 contribution to the salary of the teacher. If I end up taking the position, the family will stay in Chiangmai and my kids will continue on at NIS.

[folium]

Well, I just got an eye opener.....

I am exploring a new position in China, and was looking at the cost of an International School education for my children. NIS (Nanjing International School) is charging $26,000 USD per year per child!

I won't be complaining about the cost of NIS in Chiangmai anymore.....

And a similar eye-opener would be experienced almost anywhere beyond the wonderful world of CM!

Without getting too soap-boxy, one thing that has been largely overlooked in this discussion so far has been whether the intl schools here do a good job for their students. As a parent myself my overriding concern is that my children have a happy and productive experience of school. I don't really care what the place looks like or how the management looks, behaves or sounds. I am not a shareholder in the business and therefore have little real interest in their management skills or lack of, as long as my children are safe, happy and come out at the far end with qualifications at or above their level of capabilities.

Without intending to be crass it's similar to going to a restaurant. It's the product coming out of the kitchen that counts, not the number of executive chefs, the number of MBAs running the business or fancy surroundings. It's not my place to tell a restaurant how to run their business or how much to charge, the same with fee paying schools. If they don't deliver what I want for my children I go elsewhere, again the luxury of having a decent choice here in CM.

Parent involvement is essential and successful schools need it. So I'm all in favour of Puwa's campaign but I would suggest that it targets 1 school and with limited realistic objectives. This makes success simpler and quicker and is likely to be then taken up by other schools once its seen to be a competitive issue. Always best to let people make their own decisions rather than back them into corners, especially in this part of the world.

Why not start with the issues of safety and professionalism. All decent schools should have a thorough and comprehensive child protection policy. I certainly don't advocate a situation as in the UK where children are restricted in some many ways at school due to "safety" concerns being totally overdone, but any parent should be able to send their children off to school knowing they are being handed over to a safe environment.

An ealier post talked about police checks and qualifications. While nothing is perfect, schools should be encouraged to publish the academic qualifications of all teachers and guarantee that credible background checks have been carried out on all employees of the school.

Small steps, but "low hanging fruit" to get the accountability ball rolling.

[scotbeve]

Well, I just got an eye opener.....

I am exploring a new position in China, and was looking at the cost of an International School education for my children. NIS (Nanjing International School) is charging $26,000 USD per year per child!

I won't be complaining about the cost of NIS in Chiangmai anymore.....

Bob,

As for our kids tuition, I've never really batted an eye at the cost... Just the opposite.... I'm not "rich" but we live comfortably here. In reply of mine to our parent advisory committee, I stated that I wouldn't mind some more for tuition IF IT GOES TO TEACHER RETENTION INCENTIVES first and foremost.

Scott, I agree with you, I would gladly pay more for my kids education especially if I knew that it was going to the teachers.

But I do have a problem accepting a $75000 bill for 3 kids to go to school. Assuming that the Nanjing school is paying their teachers around $48,000/yr. and there is only 20 kids to a class, I only see a $2250 contribution to the salary of the teacher. If I end up taking the position, the family will stay in Chiangmai and my kids will continue on at NIS.

Bob,

Indeed! $7-8K (US) is not a lot comparatively speaking.... I'm sure a few NIS parents may not like hearing this next statement (this possibly includes my better half!), but, I would not mind paying another 5K baht per term for my sons education if it helps the curriculum and teacher retention. Yes..... 2 different aspects / costs that are my priority as far as an international school budget is concerned.

Edited June 2, 2011 by scotbeve

[KayCee]

We've lived overseas for our jobs for years, and our kids' schooling has generally cost between $12,000 and $20,000 per year.

Was that 12-20K per child?

Yes, each. Ouch. That doesn't count the capital improvement fees, one time registration fee of sometimes as much as $2,000 (again, each), etc.

[chaoyang]

<snip>I stated that I wouldn't mind some more for tuition IF IT GOES TO TEACHER RETENTION INCENTIVES first and foremost.

That is assuming the teachers are worthy of retention. New teachers aren't a bad thing. They often bring more up-to-date techniques to the backwaters of Chiang Mai, and are enthusiastic, etc.

What is not necessarily good is if teachers get "grandfathered in" (even though there's no tenure) and are kept on year after year out of respect for their contributions in previous tough times or have children that need to be supported. In the case of the NIS principal and assistant principal who are now moving on -- they came along with the school when it was purchased in 2001 and might not have best suited as the school gained stable footing and improved.

I found myself in a similar situation -- times were changing and I was not happy with the new players, so I moved on and it worked out very well for me.

I know students quite rightly get attached to their teachers, but old teacher does not necessarily mean the best teacher.

Higher salaries, of course, would both retain good teachers and attract very good new ones, so, yes that is certainly a crucial element.

[AjarnMac]

Why not start with the issues of safety and professionalism...

An earlier post talked about police checks and qualifications. While nothing is perfect, schools should be encouraged to publish the academic qualifications of all teachers and guarantee that credible background checks have been carried out on all employees of the school.

Small steps, but "low hanging fruit" to get the accountability ball rolling.

I would like to provide some information to assist with this stream of discussion:

You are correct in stating that "nothing is perfect" (by way of screening process or hiring procedure) when attempting to ascertain the true qualities of each individual teacher. However, there are several steps that do occur.

The first step is the selection process, where university graduate students are screened prior to acceptance to their teacher education programme. I studied in Ontario, Canada. Competition for entry during the year I studied for my Bachelor of Education was very fierce.

Along with one or two years of course work, typical teacher training includes two or more practical teaching sessions overseen by supervisory educational programme faculty and the school location supporting expert classroom teacher. Many teacher candidates fail this portion of their programme. Some fail for the right reasons and some fail for reasons including lack of support or personality conflict.

The third step is graduation with the award of a post-graduate teaching degree.

The fourth step is application for provincial or state certification and teaching credentials.

In some cases, as in Ontario, Canada, a governing body overseas teacher certification, professional development and professional discipline. An Ontario teacher may not work unless they are in good standing with the Ontario College of Teachers. (http://www.oct.ca/home.aspx) As well, OCT certified teachers are subject to disciplinary review in cases of malpractice. The degree of professionalism has progressed to a point where the College has achieved recognition for its members to the equivalent degree where registered nurses place an RN after their name. I proudly place an OCT (Ontario Certified Teacher) after my name. For those who might be skeptics, the College was established by the provincial government and, while I am not certain of the composition of the Board, has strong representation from government appointments and shareholders.

To maintain my good standing with the College costs hundreds of dollars yearly. It is a professional cost that I accept as a matter of course which is affixed to my profession.

Now we progress to the International School forum. Many international schools recruit through major teacher recruitment agencies like Search Associates (SA), the European Council of International Schools (ECIS) and International Schools Services (ISS). These recruiting agencies vet teacher candidates. Most require notarized copies of diplomas, notarized copies of transcripts and police reports. They contact references.

Schools who can afford to be discerning will require at least two years of professional experience.

Next come the interviews which typically take place at "job fairs" in major cities throughout the world hosted by the recruiting agencies. Teachers and school recruiters travel from their place of work to these locations and attempt to find or fill positions. Typically, a series of interviews takes place between the teacher candidates and the administrators prior to the conditional offering of contracts. Conditions may include drug testing, medical examination, AIDS tests and background checks among others. Understand that the registration costs and time, travel expenses, time off work, and risks inherent from resigning from one institution with the hopes of finding work with another may not prove the worth of the teacher candidate, but certainly does prove the candidate's motivation. No less so in the case of the administrative employer.

Then comes the work visa. In order to work at my school - PTIS - I must have a Thai work visa. It is my understanding that this is a rigorous process. My understanding comes from the fact that I have had to provide all of my credentials in true form to my employer for the application. Also, I see the copies thereof every year I am asked to sign dozens of sheets of paper for the next year's work visa.

PTIS has asked me for the last five years to update my professional qualifications and share details on professional development attended. PTIS posts biographies of all teachers on the school website. The PTIS administration provides a list of these qualifications to our accrediting body.

Finally, there is accreditation. Many individuals overlook international school accreditation. However, this is a crucial step in determining the value of the teachers employed and the value of the education they deliver. It is crucial because the accrediting body examines all aspects of the school (physical plant, safety, curriculum, staff, finances, strategic plans, ownership, administration, student support services, technology, teaching practices...) to determine the nature of the programme delivered to each student. Accreditation allows schools to provide "equivalents" to educational programmes in other countries. Essentially this means that an accrediting body will recognize that a graduation diploma from X International School meets the standards required from its jurisdiction. This is what allows internationally educated students to achieve entry into Oxford, MIT, or McGill University. The better the accreditation, the better consideration for the student in his or her application. PTIS is accredited by the Thai Department of Education, The Council of International Schools(CIS) and the New England Association of Schools and Colleges(NEASC). I am also intimately familiar with accreditation through WASC. In fact, I have undergone accreditation at every international school in which I have been employed. The accreditation process is very costly in employee work hours, registration and membership fees and in the accreditation visitation costs. Accreditation is also a continuous and on-going process which requires teachers and administrators to reflect on their professional organization, practices, curriculum and more. It is worth every penny and every effort if it means that a student is rightly placed in a post-secondary institution upon graduation. And I am seeing that a lot with the students we graduate from PTIS.

So, I humbly offer some advice to parents seeking to ensure the best for their children (BTW - my child is a student at PTIS):

1. Seek out information from your school on how they recruit, who they recruit and where they recruit administrators and teachers. It should be no secret. Perhaps even seek, through appropriate channels, to be a participant in the process. Parents might be involved through board membership, parent associations and strategic planning.
2. Get to know your teachers and their qualifications and their experiences. If they get to know you, you might find yourself providing expert instructional assistance!
3. Promote professional development for teachers to get professional help and qualifications.

This can never provide an absolute guarantee against hiring a poor teacher. But it will increase the likelihood that you find the right teachers for your kids and for the educational institution in which you place them.

This may be too much for one post. If so, I extend my apologies.

Regards,

Mac