Travelling On An Airbus A380

[mouse]

Many of us seem to complain about the alledged safety record of local airlines, yet when a big company like Airbus knowlingly or unknowingly violates safety concerns and we read about it, we do not even flinch. Future travellers of the Airbus A380 should visit this website and read the articles there, for these gaint airships will eventually include Asia in their routes.

[Mighty Mouse]

Scaremongerer.

Let me see the proof.

[mouse]

Scaremongerer.

Let me see the proof.

I am just pointing out this guy fighting for our safety. I would hate to find out at 35,000 feet that this guy is right.

I am not an Engineer but this guy is and this company attacking him like this makes me wonder. Boeing although using the same chips software combination, seems to be taking the safe approach of installing a backup/failsafe system that of course weighs more.

[cdnvic]

Scaremongerer.

Let me see the proof.

I am just pointing out this guy fighting for our safety.

...and asking for "donations"

I am not an Engineer but this guy is and this company attacking him like this makes me wonder.

Why would a company defend itself against slander and defamation when they have billions of dollars riding on this aircraft? If the fix is as cheap as he says then it would be cheaper to fix than to pay a fraction of the legal fees involved.

"I read something on the internet, so it must be true, and therefor I will panic before checking even one fact!"

cv

[raro]

...and you're sure that this webpage is not sponsored by Boeing? Someone might have hit that donation button...sorry, but by the way the page is made up I decist from reading the whole lowdown. Looks like another conspiracy BS again.

[cdnvic]

...and you're sure that this webpage is not sponsored by Boeing? Someone might have hit that donation button...sorry, but by the way the page is made up I decist from reading the whole lowdown. Looks like another conspiracy BS again.

Well he does live close to the Boeing plant.

Domain Name: JOE-MANGAN.COM

Registrant:

none

Anthony Glatz

###########

Tacoma

Washington,98437

US

[raro]

...and you're sure that this webpage is not sponsored by Boeing? Someone might have hit that donation button...sorry, but by the way the page is made up I decist from reading the whole lowdown. Looks like another conspiracy BS again.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well he does live close to the Boeing plant.

Domain Name: JOE-MANGAN.COM

Registrant:

none

Anthony Glatz

###########

Tacoma

Washington,98437

US

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

hmmmm.....that's worth a completely new conspiracy theory against Boeing...

However, just found this http://www.daserste.de/plusminus/beitrag_d...j58qmmvv~cm.asp in German language. It's from a quite investigative German news magazine. Seems that there's something true about the story.

[The Philosopher]

Another American jealous and bitter about the success of Airbus.

[gerry1011]

I want to be the first to fly the A380 anyway.

Airbus is great !

Something will certainly come up shortly against the new A350 too.

But it will not prevent Airbus to progress further

Safety?

The Americans were very fast at critisizing the Air France Airbus crash in Toronto... which caused no casualties.

But they became suddenly quiet when a serie of other crashes occured around the world, resulting in many deaths. These were all Boeing aircraft.

Uhm...

[ilyushin]

Airbus surfers from airframe fatigue. Their first aircraft manufactured in 1971 has long been scrapped along with many others that were produced thereafter.

Boeing aircraft like the 737-200 and 707-200/300 are still flying and can extend their life with a Boeing Aged Aircraft Program for 20 more yrs.

I admire the A380 program , but will always as an aviator put my chips of the B747-400 and 777-300ER/LR.

The A380 will make a great freighter, but I worry with limited airport able to handle the passenger ground services of the massive aircraft.

Fly high and safe.

[Sir Burr]

My worry with the A380 is that you are going to have to check-in at least four hours before the flight. It's going to take at least two hours to board and seat everyone.

Also, don't want to arrive just after an A380 or two has landed. Immigration queues will be horrendous.

[cdnvic]

My worry with the A380 is that you are going to have to check-in at least four hours before the flight. It's going to take at least two hours to board and seat everyone.

Also, don't want to arrive just after an A380 or two has landed. Immigration queues will be horrendous.

Just use the express "Thailand Elite Card" line.

cv

[mouse]

If the fix is as cheap as he says then it would be cheaper to fix than to pay a fraction of the legal fees involved.

"I read something on the internet, so it must be true, and therefor I will panic before checking even one fact!"

Now after reading all that I could find, I understand that they are using car brake system chips instead of the normal aircraft chips saving $420 per chip times 4 chips per aircraft which totals out to a $1,712 per aircraft and suddenly I read a story that says that Boeing is also going to use those very same chips on their next model Jumbo aircraft, however they plan to add a failsafe system or manual override.

Now take that $1,712 in savings along with the ability to meet delivery times without penalties and spread that out over a few thousand aircraft and suddenly we seem to have a motive.

As for lawyers, companies like this have them on retainer, so the do not save by not using them once in a while.

As for reading on the Internet. I do not know the way others do it. I read, if it interests me then I Google it and read some more. Since I know a few languages and see the same basic story again and again, then I start wondering and then eventually posting my opinion.

Also in this particular case, I made some calls and found the guy that registered the site. In fact I know him and am 100% sure that he is not a Boeing employee. I do not know Joe Mangan, but, thank him for sacrificing all including his house and career, for those of us that travel and could eventually be affected by such problems.

From what I read this problem could be overcome by 80€ per aircraft. Just what is our life worth to the Airlines that will use this plane to carry us back forth between the land of smiles?

cdnvic - Please take this in humour....... Let's see if I can rearrange those letter a bit??? Yes I have it! I suggest that you change your avatar name to "cynic".

[cdnvic]

I wouldn't say cynical, but yes I am a sceptic. Having worked in both news, and politics I've heard more conspiricy theories than would fill a set of encyclopedias. My time in advertising taught me not only how to write BS, but how to spot it as well. Much of the trick in sorting out the legit from the loonies is in their demeanor and application of language. His tone of voice suggests someone who isn't willing to hear any counter views, and in the place of actual evidence he inserts alarm.

He has been asked more than once by the courts to show evidence and has refused.

I can't find any record of his allegations taking place before his dismissal.

Looks like a loose cannon, and could be the reason he was cut loose.

At least read the employer's side of things before jumping on any bandwagons.

http://www.tttech.com/press/docs/pressrele...-TTTech-WDR.pdf

cv

[xbusman]

Having worked in transportation, including aircraft, there are a few points that need to be made by industry insiders.

All engineering for transportation is a matter of trade offs, you trade off performance for weight for cost for size for longevity for for for. Its why engineers make the big money. The meeting rooms where these issues are discussed can get very ugly because its always "what if". Eventually someone has to make the determination of "good enough for the application" and generally that person is not a perfect human being. Thankfully, that whats field service is for.

The ultimate vehicle in safety and reliability is supposed to be the manned space shuttles. So weight and safety end up the main requirements with little or no concern to cost. Despite the billions, someone with full knowledge of the seal and tile problems made the decision to launch.

Airbus makes generally acceptable engineering trade offs while Boeing at times seems overly conservative. I have run across design engineers before that have taken up a crusade such as this guy has. Its called doing your bosses job better than your boss can do it. His job is to design, not make those very difficult trade off decisions. If he does not like the project or disagrees with the trade offs, quit and go design forklifts or skateboards.

He comes from Washington because if your in aviation generally at some point or another you work in Seattle, Ohio or Talouse. He is also a devout Baptist and currently being supported by his church. Nothing wrong with that but occasionally those folks are known to go on moral crusades on call to a higher order.

He may be right. He may be wrong. In the end, Airbus does the best it can with some pretty smart people. Will the A380 be perfect? Lets hope its not as perfect as the space shuttle and has better in field engineering and service than NASA.

[mouse]

I wouldn't say cynical, but yes I am a sceptic. Having worked in both news, and politics I've heard more conspiricy theories than would fill a set of encyclopedias. My time in advertising taught me not only how to write BS, but how to spot it as well. Much of the trick in sorting out the legit from the loonies is in their demeanor and application of language. His tone of voice suggests someone who isn't willing to hear any counter views, and in the place of actual evidence he inserts alarm.

He has been asked more than once by the courts to show evidence and has refused.

I can't find any record of his allegations taking place before his dismissal.

Looks like a loose cannon, and could be the reason he was cut loose.

At least read the employer's side of things before jumping on any bandwagons.

http://www.tttech.com/press/docs/pressrele...-TTTech-WDR.pdf

cv

The court has never been willing to hear his safety concerns and the only discussion has been on his releasing company information.

I imagine that he might be a little stressed while having fought this matter for a over a year now. Therefore his tendency to go and on.

Think about it he tried to aleviate his concerns through the company. They lambasted him and even forged his signature on the matter. He then approached Airbus, was then fired and only then went public with his allegations, so naturally there can be no record prior to his firirng. The way I understand this, is that he has been fighting for over a year now. This guy gave up all material possesions, sold his house in the USA and came back to Austria and where he risks imprisonment based on his inability to pay a large $100,000 some fine. He risked everything to drive home that there is a problem here.

His tone of voice suggests someone who isn't willing to hear any counter views, and in the place of actual evidence he inserts alarm.

Are you willing to hear counterviews? Maybe because there are no counter views here and someone needs to investigate. The equivalent of the FAA there, stated that they have investigated but refused to comment? There is something wrong here.

Now it seems that many politicians are sitting up and paying attention calling for independent investigations. Other experts inthe field are joining Mr. Mangan in substantiating his claims.

I suggest that you read all the articles at http://www.joe-mangan.com/links.html prior to making up your mind.

Ask youself this:

1) Why is Boeing doing backup system and a second manual backup to the same chip system on their upcoming aircraft?

2) Why did the company bring him and his family, to Europe at their expense, pay him $100,000 annually and then suddenly turn on him without a identifiable cause?

3) After having been issued a gag order and leaving for the USA, why did Mr. Mangan return to Austria to continue the fight even against the advise of his lawyer?

4) What does Mr. Mangan stand to gain through all this?

5) Why does Airbus say nothing?

6) Why does the European equivalent of the FAA reserve any comment stating that it is a matter between TTT and Airbus?

7) Why not just fix the problem at €80 an aircraft by placing a manual backup on the aircarft.

I am sure that this man's Engineering career is over. He can maybe hope to recover by maybe doing something like becoming the Ralph Nader of the Airline Industry. I really do not see a man risking all like this unless there is something there.

My mind will remain open until the facts are released by an independent party.

I just wish that everyone would join him in a call for an independent investigation. What harmn can that cause, it would substantiate the facts one way or another, it would allow some Engineeers to be gainfully employed and it would allow me to have peace of mind while travelling.

Edited October 9, 2005 by mouse

[gerry1011]

My worry with the A380 is that you are going to have to check-in at least four hours before the flight. It's going to take at least two hours to board and seat everyone.

Also, don't want to arrive just after an A380 or two has landed. Immigration queues will be horrendous.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just use the express "Thailand Elite Card" line.

cv

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I will use both

[mouse]

I just found this link http://www.cgn-forum.de/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1407 which idicates that a Professor Ruediger Haas, a speciliast in Aircarft Design Safety, has questioned why there is no fail safe system present in the particular design.

The same article also mentions that Mr. Mangan is being denied the right to contact the EASA directly, in reference to his safety concerns. Seems EASA is the equivalent of the FAA. Something strange going on here!

I believe that JFK was killed by Oswald only and I do not believe in UFO's at Area 51, but, this one makes me want to ask serious questions and these are questions that I do not want awnsered when on board an aircraft at 35,000 feet with my entire family!

Edited October 9, 2005 by mouse

[ilyushin]

My worry with the A380 is that you are going to have to check-in at least four hours before the flight. It's going to take at least two hours to board and seat everyone.

Also, don't want to arrive just after an A380 or two has landed. Immigration queues will be horrendous.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just use the express "Thailand Elite Card" line.

cv

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's good!

[mouse]

Nothing wrong with that but occasionally those folks are known to go on moral crusades on call to a higher order.

I am glad that I am not a an Engineer having to make such difficult decisions but, a mere potential passenger that may have to become a statictic to save a few kilogram on an aircraft, making the aircraft and thus the enire airline industry much more efficient.

I am not a religious zeleot (I seldom even pray) but when will mankind learn that money is not a God, but, a merely a tool such as a hammer ?!

[mouse]

And yet again another startling revelation that inidcates that Joe-mangan's allegations are correct http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtm...15/ccairb15.xml

or see the rest of the story at http://www.joe-mangan.com/links.html

[cloudtiger]

As an aerospace engineer, pilot, and former airline hardware engineer, I can only say that the safety factors in theory and in practice are hugely different. What engineers and designers and boards of directors dream up in labs and meeting rooms are not always what happen in the repair centers, in the maintenance hangars, out at the airports. Mechanics, inspectors, and maintenance engineers all make plenty of mistakes. I've seen enough of oversights, make-do's, "little errors", and "neverminds" to give me nightmares.

Facts to keep in mind:

Mechanics, inspectors, engineers, pilots, air traffic controllers are people. And people make mistake no matter how much redundancy you design into a system.

Aircrafts will always crash, and, yes people will die.

Do airlines want bigger planes because they are "safer" or because they want to make more profit?

Now the question is "how many eggs (lives)do you want to risk in one basket?"

[mouse]

...and you're sure that this webpage is not sponsored by Boeing? Someone might have hit that donation button...sorry, but by the way the page is made up I decist from reading the whole lowdown. Looks like another conspiracy BS again.

I am sure that the webpage is not sponsored by Boeing. I paid for it out of my pocket. As for the donate..... it was my idea for Joe Mangan, whom I never met but felt someone had to help. Not so much for him, but, for his kids who are the first innocent victims of the situation. The gentleman risked everything for our safety, his true beliefs and his obligations as an engineer.