Help The World

[HonoluluJimmy]

Everyone is helping the world be a better place. Do you part and help a freedom fighter!

http://www.heromiles.org/ will give you the chace to donate Air Miles to the men and women who are placing themselves in harms way to protect the world.

[maerim]

I would be grateful if you could define freedom fighter for us.

I am sure the Iraqis who are resisting the occupation of their country would describe themselves as "freedom fighters" same way as the AfghanTaliban did when they were financed by the U.S.A. just before they became the bad guys.

[Khun ?]

I would be grateful if you could define freedom fighter for us.

I am sure the Iraqis who are resisting the occupation of their country would describe themselves as "freedom fighters" same way as the AfghanTaliban did when they were financed by the U.S.A. just before they became the bad guys.

Iraq, the freedom fighters heard there is billions of gold still buried and are only resisting till it is found. To bad it left with Al-Qeada.

Talibah resistance was a commodity issue. The Russians heard

there were beautiful beast under those mask who would work in the skin trade cheap. The U.S. already knew what

it really was and helped fund the Taliban to keep em locked up.

[maerim]

I know where there's tons of gold buried, unfortunately it's in the gold fields of South Africa and other countries.

If I get some of this stuff before the Iraqis do I will split it with you, but not a word ok?

[Rinrada]

All the gold in all the world will not really matter 2 much.....

Saturday's attacks in Karbala,http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3352769.stm

The initial death toll included two Thai soldiers serving with coalition forces. .

The Thai Prime Minister, Thaksin Shinawatra, said Thailand would continue to work for humanitarian ends in Iraq, despite criticism of the deployment by Thai opposition politicians.

[Khun ?]

All the gold in all the world will not really matter 2 much.....

Saturday's attacks in Karbala,http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3352769.stm

The initial death toll included two Thai soldiers serving with coalition forces. .

The Thai Prime Minister, Thaksin Shinawatra, said Thailand would continue to work for humanitarian ends in Iraq, despite criticism of the deployment by Thai opposition politicians.

Just think they are more safe in Iraq than they are during songkran holidays.

[Honolulu Jimmy]

My hear felt good wishes go out to the families and loved one of the Thai Freedom Fights who made they untimate sacrafice for world peace.

[Thaiquila]

My hear felt good wishes go out to the families and loved one of the Thai Freedom Fights who made they untimate sacrafice for world peace.

So, please let me know when Iraq invaded the US? Oh, and when did Iraq invade Thailand? Some world peace. Anyway, the Thais are there on a humitarian mission. You will have plenty of time to get your Dubya reeelected, but do we really need this kind of propaganda here?

[plachon]

My hear felt good wishes go out to the families and loved one of the Thai Freedom Fights who made they untimate sacrafice for world peace.

So, please let me know when Iraq invaded the US? Oh, and when did Iraq invade Thailand? Some world peace. Anyway, the Thais are there on a humitarian mission. You will have plenty of time to get your Dubya reeelected, but do we really need this kind of propaganda here?

Here! here! Thaiquila. Jimmy is another ostrich on a mission. Exactly who's freedom he thinks is being fought for, he probably couldn't clearly define, but saying "the world's" is in extremely bad taste for the 95 % + of the world's population who are not US citizens. And even within the US, a clear majority did not vote for the man who dragged them into this war in Iraq, which they will ultimately lose. So Jimmy's voice is sounding an increasingly desperate and lonely one in a world growing tired of US-led hegemony and violence.

[Membrane]

do we really need this kind of propaganda here?

Do we really need your propaganda here?

...One man's truth is another man's propaganda...

Realize there are two sides to every coin.

Don't get me started.. but the idea in Iraq is to overthrow a dictator who was bent on keeping the middle east unstable. You might counter and say it was all about oil. I disagree (why else would the U.S. spend so much on roads, hospitals, schools, food, etc.--if it were "all about oil", they would have just taken it, without all the nation rebuilding).

Now I know that just by saying this, I am unleashing all kinds of arguments, etc.... but the only point that I really want to make is:

One man's truth is another man's propaganda...

Membrane

[marquess]

Don't get me started.. but the idea in Iraq is to overthrow a dictator who was bent on keeping the middle east unstable. You might counter and say it was all about oil. I disagree (why else would the U.S. spend so much on roads, hospitals, schools, food, etc.--if it were "all about oil", they would have just taken it, without all the nation rebuilding).

Eh! I though it was weapons of mass destruction. Oh! Never mind any excuse will do. WAKE UP!

[Thaiquila]

The war was sold to the American people and the poodle in Britain as necessary because there was an imminent danger of the the west being attacked by weapons of mass destruction. This was clearly a lie; Bush people knew it was the only way to sell the war. It was never sold as a war of liberation; what country has the bandwidth to militarily overthrow every bad guy in the world? None, of course.

The most likely reason is more on lines with published reports written by American neoconservatives about the need to change the politics of the middle east for the "New American Century." The idea is to hold on to American power and hegemony in this new century, and using military power to do that, not persuasion, economic superiority, or setting an admirable example. This is probably the more likely reason for the idealogues behind Bush than oil. And yes, many Americans are quite patriotic but they don't wish their government to act in this way. But all bets are for Bush to be elected for the first time in 04, and if so, Katie bar the door!

This being said, of course it is humane to have sympathy to the soldiers on the ground and their families who are only acting on the orders of their government.

[marquess]

This being said, of course it is humane to have sympathy to the soldiers on the ground and their families who are only acting on the orders of their government.

I have no smypathy for the soldiers, after all the US army is no recruited on a consctiption basis.

[Boon Mee]

And where would LOS be if the big bad American Army, Air Force, Marines, Navy had not been in Thailand when Uncle Ho was on his way to overrun Southeast Asia? HUH?

Yeah, we shouda just left Saddam continue his rape rooms, death squads etc. Continue gassing innocent people he didn't like...

[Membrane]

And where would LOS be if the big bad American Army, Air Force, Marines, Navy had not been in Thailand when Uncle Ho was on his way to overrun Southeast Asia? HUH?

Yeah, we shouda just left Saddam continue his rape rooms, death squads etc.  Continue gassing innocent people he didn't like...

Exactly Boon Mee!

I'm sure, if you asked "Uncle Ho", if the American government was a terrorist organization or not, they would eagerly agree and would want anyone else to agree with that propaganda because that propaganda would further their cause.

The same thing goes with the Nazis in WWII. I'm sure Adolf Hitler would have had a great time putting out anti-American propaganda, calling the U.S. terrorists because they forced us into acting against them militarily. ("Help us stop the terrorists, the great satan U.S. They are bombing and killing our innocent Aryan children!")...

So it all depends on which side you are on:

If you wanted Saddam to stay in power, if you actually believe that "infidels" should be killed for their non-belief in Allah (as the Islamic extremists believe), then you will put a spin on the U.S.' military involvement in ousting Saddam, branding it as terrorism, because that's the hot word of the day and is sure to get attention.

But, if you are one of the oppressed, if you were one of the estimated 300,000 widows whose husband was murdered by Saddam or one of the mothers whose 12-year old daughter was raped by Qusay--THEN you would have a completely different view of things, wouldn't you? Then you would thank the U.S., for coming in and ousting Saddam the criminal. You would welcome the U.S. and the allies with open arms and celebration in the streets.

[maerim]

(why else would the U.S. spend so much on roads, hospitals, schools, food, etc.--if it were "all about oil", they would have just taken it, without all the nation rebuilding.

Perhaps one reason is they and the U.K.bombed a lot of the infrastrure into dust in the first place over the last 12 years or so.

There are some nice revalations coming to light just now with Donald Rumsfield's involvement with Saddam 20 years ago when he was fighting Iran.

Perhaps that it best left unsaid?

[marquess]

Boon Mee!

I'm sure, if you asked "Uncle Ho", if the American government was a terrorist organization or not, they would eagerly agree and would want anyone else to agree with that propaganda because that propaganda would further their cause.

The same thing goes with the Nazis in WWII. I'm sure Adolf Hitler would have had a great time putting out anti-American propaganda, calling the U.S. terrorists because they forced us into acting against them militarily. ("Help us stop the terrorists, the great satan U.S. They are bombing and killing our innocent Aryan children!")...

So it all depends on which side you are on:

If you wanted Saddam to stay in power, if you actually believe that "infidels" should be killed for their non-belief in Allah (as the Islamic extremists believe), then you will put a spin on the U.S.' military involvement in ousting Saddam, branding it as terrorism, because that's the hot word of the day and is sure to get attention.

But, if you are one of the oppressed, if you were one of the estimated 300,000 widows whose husband was murdered by Saddam or one of the mothers whose 12-year old daughter was raped by Qusay--THEN you would have a completely different view of things, wouldn't you? Then you would thank the U.S., for coming in and ousting Saddam the criminal. You would welcome the U.S. and the allies with open arms and celebration in the streets. 

Pity they did not do the same with Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao Sae Dung. Who were responsible for 10 of millions dying. Let's not forget those nuclear bombs that they dropped too. They saved alot of people too didn't they?? The US does what it please when it suits it to do so. Humanatarian aspects are only a cover for it's own interests. Afteral did not 500,000 children die as a result of UN sanctions, remorselessly backed by the US and the UK. Madeline Albright said that it was a price that had to be paid. So don't give us all that crap about the US being some kind of saving angel.

[Thaiquila]

The points about the fluidity/relativity of what is to be considered propoganda are obviously true.

However, there is such thing as some kind of "truth" that is shown after the dust settles. It is often called history. And history also eventually determines which wars were ethically justified wars (from both sides) and which were not. Of course, this isn't perfect either, as history is usually written by the winning side.

And anybody who looks at US history soberly will see that the US does not get involved in international wars for the self interest of other nations. It gets involved in wars for perceived US self interest. But, really, in this sense, the US is just like every other country.

So the case of Iraq can still be argued. But there is no evidence this war was undertaken to liberate the Iraqi people, but if that is a side benefit, that is of course a good thing. It is yet to be determined whether Iraq can form its own reasonable government that does not continue to be disturbing to the West. History shows the odds are against it It seems quite likely the "democratic" choice of their people would be some kind of Islamic theocracy.

[Honolulu Jimmy]

Thaiguila,

Where did you have your head on 9/11?

"So, please let me know when Iraq invaded the US? Oh, and when did Iraq invade Thailand? Some world peace. Anyway, the Thais are there on a humitarian mission. You will have plenty of time to get your Dubya reeelected, but do we really need this kind of propaganda here?"

Propaganda about 9/11 What is there to say. We were attacked! In case you didn't notice.

[Membrane]

Ahh.. this love/hate relationship with the U.S...

If we do get involved and use our own blood and money to go after obvious criminals like Saddam, then try to stick around long enough to rebuild the country, then we're accused of every ridiculous, over-blown and horrible thing imaginable: the war in Iraq was all about oil, GWB is an evil war-mongerer, Americans just like killing hundreds of thousands of innocents--you know, just for the freakin' blood-sport fun of it... Please, give me a break.

If we don't get involved and we try to help resolve problems in other countries through diplomacy, sanctions or the U.N., OR even if we just mind our own business altogether, then we're still accused of every ridiculous, over-blown and horrible thing imaginable: we only get involved for our own self interest, we don't care about anyone but ourselves and we remorselessly let 500,000 children die as a result of (ahem) U.N. sanctions... Please, give me a break!

So we're damned if we do and we're damned if we don't, right? Can't please everybody, can we?

Here's a list of countries, from tiny Grenada to the Soviet Union, that were either threatened or ruled by communist, fascist or military dictatorships that U.S. military and technological power helped overthrow or else prevented from seizing power: Afghanistan, Austria, Albania, Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, East Germany, El Salvador, Estonia, Finland, Germany, Greece, Grenada, Hungary, Italy, Japan, Latvia, Lithuania, Netherlands, Nicaragua, Norway, Philippines, Poland, Romania, Russian Federation, Singapore, Slovakia, Slovenia, South Korea, Soviet Union, Taiwan, Turkey, Ukraine.

Wonder what would have happened to all those people in those countries if we just stopped caring and stopped trying to help--what kind of attrocities would we see then, hmmm?

No, America is NOT perfect... but at least WE TRY! This is not opinion; America's historical record of noble causes and successes for humanity are clear evidence. However, in contrast, ALL "America bashing" countries simply prefer to attack the U.S. and blame IT for their problems rather than look inward and address their own much-needed national reforms!

[Thaiquila]

Thaiguila,

Where did you have your head on 9/11?

Propaganda about 9/11 What is there to say. We were attacked! In case you didn't notice.

The US was attacked by AL QUEDA, NOT IRAQ. Even Bush and Condy Rice have publicly admitted this, even though they promoted the myth that Iraq was involved during the prelude to invading Iraq.

I pay taxes in the US. I want our taxes going to fight our real enemies, AL QUEDA. We are not so rich that we can get involved everywhere, look at the massive US deficits, sliding dollar, high unemployment, and REAL THREATS to security from AL QUEDA.

[Boon Mee]

Very well said Membrane but getting back to The Land of Smiles just where would Thailand be if we did not attempt to halt Communism in SE Asia?

It can be said correctly Thailand has not gone the way of Laos, Cambodia because of a strong love for the King & Queen but also because we stepped in as the Brits did in Malaysia back in the 50's. It just didn't work for us in Vietnam.

And, where would the Thai silk industry be w/o good 'ol Jim Thompson who was doing his patriotic best for Thailand? Sorry for getting off the track a bit...

[Honolulu Jimmy]

Al qeries, Iraq, Afgani Thugs, Momar of Libya, Islamic Jehaters, and the rest of those whom won't be tolerant and peace loving peoples as are are the free people of the world. Look at what that Bali Bombing guy said....Greedy Zionists and Filth of the Crucifix. Can you belive that. The mosques of America are sending people to help in A-rab counties?

Look, truth being there are muslim bar girrls in Patong. This is a fact that I have first hand knowledge and personal experience. No pork but they did swallow.

[Boon Mee]

Bet they were circumsized too. What a shower...

[maerim]

Americans just like killing hundreds of thousands of innocents--you know, just for the freakin' blood-sport fun of it... Please

Perhaps the numbers were not in the hundreds of thousands but what about the slaughter of innocent men women and children led by that great humanitaran William Cally and his merry men in the vilage on Mai Lai.

Or is that little slip such a long time ago that it don't count

While you are at it you might as inform us as to the benefit of Agent Orange, the defoliant (with added dioxins)sprayed by the brave pilots on villages and the effects are still being felt by them 30 years later.

[Boon Mee]

Hey Maerim - what are you, are Jehova Witness? Get your head outa the sand, boy...

[plachon]

Al qeries, Iraq, Afgani Thugs, Momar of Libya, Islamic Jehaters, and the rest of those whom won't be tolerant and peace loving peoples as are are the free people of the world. Look at what that Bali Bombing guy said....Greedy Zionists and Filth of the Crucifix. Can you belive that. The mosques of America are sending people to help in A-rab counties?

Look, truth being there are muslim bar girrls in Patong. This is a fact that I have first hand knowledge and personal experience. No pork but they did swallow.

Take a long, hard look in the mirror Jimmy-boy, after you kick that Muslim girl outta bed this morning and tell the Forum what you see. Cos, dunno 'bout anyone else, but I'm seeing hate, intolerance and hypocrisy streaming out the screen.

[maerim]

Where's that Doc Pat Pong when I need him?

Latest addition, I am now Jehova Witness, does anyone know where I send my 10% of the gross every week?

[Axel]

Ahh.. this love/hate relationship with the U.S...

Membrane, your avatar is called 'usapeace.gif'. I like your caricature and this is exactly what I would wish to see, Peace and > 'protect yourself'.

I mentioned b4, I am no friend of GWB, who runs head over heels into all kind of wars and by doing so makes enemies for the USA. What for?

Sympathies and admiration for the US get lost because of him and yes, people around the world blame him for starting his wars. War againt Afghanistan, War against Iraq, War against terrorists. What is next?

Let him do his wars at home, fight against drugs, fight against poverty, fight against illiteracy, fight for a better life at home.

If any nation needs help by the world community, help can be given, support the UN whereby such support must be paid for with monies contributed to the UN by all nations. Let Iran, Iraq, Bosnia, Russia, to name a few, solve there own problems.

If crisis comes up, let the UN debate until all members agree on the course. It worked in Afghanistan.

What made me personally angry was Bush's decision to overrule the UN as he just could not wait. I would not have cared if it would have taken another 10 years to get all differing parties under one umbrella.

Just in the Iraq-issue uncounted Iraqis are killed. US-soldiers lost their lives and the final result will be not much different from the previous situation. There will be other rulers, same 'Iraqi' solution.

BTW, Congratulations to Hans Blix for receiving the Olof Palme - award.

NO, in CAPITAL-letters, I don't hate the US but stop GWB and make the country safe. As it stands today, US is a country at war, because of him. If he cannot do it, 2004 is the year to elect a better one.

[Thaiquila]

War againt Afghanistan, War against Iraq, War against terrorists. What is next?

As it stands today, US is a country at war, because of him. If he cannot do it, 2004 is the year to elect a better one.

Yes, Bush has been a disaster. The world had great sympathy for the US after the 911 attacks, but Bush has squandered that opportunity.

One point though: there was almost no opposition at all in the US to the Afghanistan part of the war on terrorism. And it would have been the same under any administration. This is because there was no doubt that the previous government in Afghanistan was actively harboring Al Queda, the outfit behind the attacks on the US. There is criticism on the followup in Afghanistan (which seems very weak) now that the focus is in Iraq (which had no ties to Al Queda).

And the sad truth is this: Bush will probably be elected in 2004. Why? Well, the economy is now showing signs of life, the opposition is being painted as unpatriotic for opposing the war in Iraq, and the democratic party doesn't seem able to come up with a strong enough candidate.