Institutionalized Academic Plagiarism

[Rhys]

Well, just wanted the opinions, comments, information, and responses from the astute ThaiVisa posters...

In Thailand for the MA levels..when you are ready to publish, to receive your degree, must you put your Academic Advisor's name on you paper as a CO-Author.. Is that Correct? Does it depend on each university? Is this a policy of the University Affaires Department, which is stated but not enforced?

I have checked about, and responses are disturbing: The "Some" Graduate Advisors consider their students' work their own and think nothing of putting their name on it... They need the research for their own Academic Services or Credit..

Hmmm.. Thus the concept of plagiarism crops up... Hmmm you stole someone's elses idea, without any referencing.. and you put your name on it..

Have at it Gents and Ladies..

[vont]

Did you not know about this shameless and standardless general practices around Thai univ....?

As you said.... their names have no place nor biz on your thesis or dissertation ever....

Customarily, you need to acknowledge them on acknowledgement page and footnote....

Do you have the guts to NOT INCLUDE their names on your title page.... little fellow?

But the world famous authority on dissertation papers and such.... Ms. Kate Turabian and others are on your side on this.... including all the foreign graduates from all over the world.... we all are of the very same opinion that the practice is unethical, shameful and a disgrace for the profs as well as the univ they each represent.... be it ChuLa, ThumMaSart or others....

But on the other hand.... ever consider for some unethical reasons.... you are not permitted to walk down the rosey path because one or several of them just could not find your thesis or dissertation to afix their signatures on, on time for certain dateline for graduation procession.... ?

Well, maybe being a farang, they would be reluctant to go that far....

Just an uncomfortable divergent thought....

Pls do return to tell us if you'd decide to take the chicken way out.... or not....

Before I forget..... A VERY BIG CONGRATS TO YOU AND YOURS....

What an unusual accomplishment for a farang graduating from a Thai univ....

Are your parents coming? If not several of us perhaps would be glad to act as substitutes or surrogates....

and would be glad to show up to give you some moral support and pats on your back as well....

[Scott]

One off-topic post has been deleted. Stay on topic please.

[GarryP]

^I can't see anywhere that OP states that he has graduated from a Thai uni, but then it could be because I am thick.

[richard10365]

It sounds a bit strange in an international setting but for Thai programs it sounds like par for the course.

[Rhys]

It sounds a bit strange in an international setting but for Thai programs it sounds like par for the course.

This was my undestanding as well. If the program is Thai, of course, however, if it is international, then the practice is questionable.

[thunder30101]

Define "International" , in thailand it doesnt have much meaning other than justifying exorbitant fees, but yes plagiarism copying and cheating are rampant here.

[Rhys]

Define "International" , in thailand it doesnt have much meaning other than justifying exorbitant fees, but yes plagiarism copying and cheating are rampant here.

YEah... that's a good one...Fee's are indeed high, yet in keeping with the so called international programs... they are in range. It is more the attitude, as the instructors were ALL Ph.D. grads from Western Universities....SAD..

How can you look your students in the face when they make these errors in academic integrity, when their own Academics, blatantly, consider their advisee's work their own... OK..Some Advisors..

Edited May 31, 2011 by Rhys

[thunder30101]

I dont think teaching here is much different than in western countries these days, after awhile you get tired of fighting the tide and just do what you can for the good students and wait for your paycheck to drop in your account. I like telling my thai co-workers " you can lead a buffalo to water but you cant make him drink" after they decipher the meaning they laugh their butts off.

[culicine]

I'm not sure understand the OP. Do you mean the advisor wants to put his name as a co-author on the MA itself, or any publichations in journals that come from it? My wife did a MA here many moons ago and only her name appears on the front.

Certainly, in the West, only the student's name appears on the front of the thesis - the advisors are mentioned in the acknowledgements section. However, you may feel obliged to include them as a co-author on papers you derive from the thesis. This is what I did for my PhD in Australia, and even then some of my advisors were not included as they contributed little to my research.

I certainly wouldn't be putting their name on your thesis - that's very unusual I would say.

[Rhys]

I'm not sure understand the OP. Do you mean the advisor wants to put his name as a co-author on the MA itself, or any publichations in journals that come from it? My wife did a MA here many moons ago and only her name appears on the front.

Certainly, in the West, only the student's name appears on the front of the thesis - the advisors are mentioned in the acknowledgements section. However, you may feel obliged to include them as a co-author on papers you derive from the thesis. This is what I did for my PhD in Australia, and even then some of my advisors were not included as they contributed little to my research.

I certainly wouldn't be putting their name on your thesis - that's very unusual I would say.

Actually, it is the paper derived from the MA Thesis for publication... which allows for final confirmation of the MA Degree. The Thesis Advisor's name is listed as a co researcher. True, as I thought... the Thesis advisor is formally recognized in the Acknowledgement page. Pa lao..right.

I would think in the social science this practice is frown upon, and very rare. Yet checking with other MA "about" to graduate students, but need publication, another issue, the advisor's name is right next to the primary writer and researcher. This was apparent at the 2011 Thai TESOL conference, two names on the article, one is the Thesis Advisor.

Thus what happens if you remain steadfast and tell the T-advisor, thanks for you help, which is your responsibility and what you signed up for; however, the publishing, is mine. The old aberterson commerical logical.. you may own the store, but the produce department is mine.

Cheers

[newbie001]

It is a common practice in many fields in all Universities around the world. It is not common in the Humanities but in the Sciences it is expected.

One main reason to put the name on publications is for search functions. An MA student with no publications will not be easy to find but when co-authored with a well published person it will be linked to more papers.

Publication is not a requirement of all Master's programs. The thesis doesn't have to be published to get your MA. For PhD, it is.

For most Thai students though the Graduate and Post Graduate research is often controlled much more by the advisor than in the west. Some departments that I have known actually tell the students what to research.

No it is not plagiarism. it is a sign of respect and acknowledgement that you did not work alone.

Western arrogance sounds like from many of the above posters to believe that their research is purely their own and that they don't owe anything to their advisors.

[vont]

It is a common practice in many fields in all Universities around the world. It is not common in the Humanities but in the Sciences it is expected.

One main reason to put the name on publications is for search functions. An MA student with no publications will not be easy to find but when co-authored with a well published person it will be linked to more papers.

Publication is not a requirement of all Master's programs. The thesis doesn't have to be published to get your MA. For PhD, it is.

For most Thai students though the Graduate and Post Graduate research is often controlled much more by the advisor than in the west. Some departments that I have known actually tell the students what to research.

No it is not plagiarism. it is a sign of respect and acknowledgement that you did not work alone.

Western arrogance sounds like from many of the above posters to believe that their research is purely their own and that they don't owe anything to their advisors.

may i beg to differ.

names and famed individuals of those contributed would already be acknowledged on separate acknowledgement page. don't you agree?

to desire to have your own name imprinted with your students' on the first title page on any major research is purely unethical for that professor or otherwise.

unless of course the professor originates the idea, actively co-authors the paper; she or she really should leave own almighty name out of the first title page.

come on, give students their due respect so well deserved in terms of time and financial investment incurred....

and leave the students' research alone....

more importantly, it is our inherent commitment to help students to progress on their own individual strengths and differences; and furthermore, it is my opinion that it is our duty as well to support students regardless of how much they seem to be different from ourselves and our own ideologies, expectations and standards of performance.

around 1968, i wrote a paper on effects of radio isotopes strontium90 and cesium137 on nutrition. though Dr. Marsh blessed me with unprecedented 110/100, she never hinted, nor asked, nor said anything about desiring to share ownership or authorship at all.

shame on those even thinking, suggesting and supporting such questionable academic practices in Thailand or else where around the globe. thanks for your tolerance and time everyone, students and academicians alike. i'll not edit my passage, i'm already rapidly approaching three scores and ten...., time is running thin.... your utmost tolerance will be much appreciated.

[newbie001]

Vont if I wanted to find your out of date paper and I searched google I doubt that I would even find it. However if your advisor had published many papers it would be easy to link to his research and thus find yours. You are a nobody, your professor most likely had 100's of publications.

This is not a Thai thing. This is a common practice around the world. 3 Universities that I have been affiliated with in France do this as well as 2 in UK. But as I stated it is only in the science fields.

It is not just about credit it is used because of search indexes that didn't exist in the archaic time that you went to school.

It doesn't discredit the writer to link his/ her publications to advisors that are well respected/known in their field.

To desire to have your own name imprinted with your students' on the first title page on any major research is purely unethical for that professor or otherwise.

Please, show me the link or the site that states this unsubstantiated opinion. I assure you that it is not unethical. It would be if the advisor replaced the students name, but to have his/her name under the writer as a co-author is perfectly normal and acceptable. Otherwise in books like APA, MLA it would say not to do this. Which it doesn't.

[vont]

Vont if I wanted to find your out of date paper and I searched google I doubt that I would even find it. However if your advisor had published many papers it would be easy to link to his research and thus find yours. You are a nobody, your professor most likely had 100's of publications.

This is not a Thai thing. This is a common practice around the world. 3 Universities that I have been affiliated with in France do this as well as 2 in UK. But as I stated it is only in the science fields.

It is not just about credit it is used because of search indexes that didn't exist in the archaic time that you went to school.

It doesn't discredit the writer to link his/ her publications to advisors that are well respected/known in their field.

To desire to have your own name imprinted with your students' on the first title page on any major research is purely unethical for that professor or otherwise.

Please, show me the link or the site that states this unsubstantiated opinion. I assure you that it is not unethical. It would be if the advisor replaced the students name, but to have his/her name under the writer as a co-author is perfectly normal and acceptable. Otherwise in books like APA, MLA it would say not to do this. Which it doesn't.

a person of statue would not come out in public and make statement that incriminate oneself or to booster oneself into something that a person is not.

a couple of days ago, i also responded to persons making similar excuses for the benefits of themselves in the authority positions in the academics.

Just because apa does not officially in print forbid such practices, such as forbidding person in authority to take liberty or advantage of students.... does not necessarily imply now, does it, that in all practical purpose that is permissible....

i have been brought up to think on moral ground which differs significantly from many others thinking in terms of....

what can i do to maximize whatever above and beyond the ethical determinant and the law of the land....

do what you wish and say what your heart desires, friend....

one thing though that you revealed yourself to be far from an academician.... though you might claim you were affiliated with some institutions in france and elsewhere.....

my simple question to you is:

does by virtue of affiliation with the south african heart specialist, christian bernard, or a group of renown physicians in Chula or others..... make you a heart specialist or physician yourself....?

is that what you are claiming by virtue of your affiliation or association elevate you to be an academician....?

pitiful indeed.

may i please indulge you the last time, perhaps you would next time try to call the horse by its rightful name, ok?

any freshmen in any semi recognizable higher institution of learning would not refer to "apa" as you cited in your post, nor "turabian".... as book.....

wanna go back to france or uk and ask those freshmen.... just what do they call those american psychological association publication and kate turabian immense contributions, in appropriate college terminology.....?

sorry, mate, i just couldn't help ruffling up some of your shining protective armors....

promise won't bother you any further. farewell, so long and sayonara.... cheers.... :jap:

<the apa, turabian and other theses writing guides are always referred to.... not as book but as manual, by default>

Edited June 4, 2011 by Scott

[newbie001]

I don't know what you are on about but you clearly have not been in academia for a very long time. That is fine and I doubt that you even possess a graduate degree let alone a PhD. If by chance that you do, you might have done some research on your own and have seen publications that list lots of co authors. Usually only one person actually wrote such papers many of the names are on because of some affiliation.

I did not once claim that I did this. I just said that it is common practice and in no way robs a student of their credit nor does it give false claim to the advisor. If a student working in the science field made a discovery solely on their own without any guidance whatsoever then of course they wouldn't put someone else's name on his/her paper, however that is seldom the case.

I am not a braggadocio like yourself, otherwise I would have bragged that I have taught at those universities and have been advisor to lots of students. I do indeed have a PhD. and 2 Master's degrees. I have been on committees at many universities in 7 different countries. I have never claimed to teach in Thailand but I have given some lectures and been on several boards and committees. I have published several journals, 2 books, and many articles in the past 15 years. I am quite familiar with academic practices, ethics and what is expected from both students and professors.

You my (not) friend do not have a grasp in academia at all and are biased by a personal set of beliefs that do not reflect the current field of academia.

I myself am from the Humanities field and I do not or did not put names of my professors on my papers and I didn't require it myself.

"academician" I think that you are looking for the simple word academic. As this word doesn't exist.

"

any freshmen in any semi recognizable higher institution of learning would not refer to "apa" as you cited in your post, nor "turabian".... as book....."

A manual if you prefer, but since there are over 300 pages it would be considered a book to any person of recognizable intelligence which you must be without.

[Rhys]

I don't know what you are on about but you clearly have not been in academia for a very long time. That is fine and I doubt that you even possess a graduate degree let alone a PhD. If by chance that you do, you might have done some research on your own and have seen publications that list lots of co authors. Usually only one person actually wrote such papers many of the names are on because of some affiliation.

I did not once claim that I did this. I just said that it is common practice and in no way robs a student of their credit nor does it give false claim to the advisor. If a student working in the science field made a discovery solely on their own without any guidance whatsoever then of course they wouldn't put someone else's name on his/her paper, however that is seldom the case.

I am not a braggadocio like yourself, otherwise I would have bragged that I have taught at those universities and have been advisor to lots of students. I do indeed have a PhD. and 2 Master's degrees. I have been on committees at many universities in 7 different countries. I have never claimed to teach in Thailand but I have given some lectures and been on several boards and committees. I have published several journals, 2 books, and many articles in the past 15 years. I am quite familiar with academic practices, ethics and what is expected from both students and professors.

You my (not) friend do not have a grasp in academia at all and are biased by a personal set of beliefs that do not reflect the current field of academ

I myself am from the Humanities field and I do not or did not put names of my professors on my papers and I didn't require it myself.

"academician" I think that you are looking for the simple word academic. As this word doesn't exist.

"

any freshmen in any semi recognizable higher institution of learning would not refer to "apa" as you cited in your post, nor "turabian".... as book....."

A manual if you prefer, but since there are over 300 pages it would be considered a book to any person of recognizable intelligence which you must be without.

Do play nice professors: We (students) give credit to the thesis advisor in the acknowledgement page of the thesis that is appropriate. "YES" agreed sign of respect and all that jazz.

In checking with other Western universities, the practice of publishing and including the T-advisor's name on the article derived from the thesis all depends... be it a UC Berkeley MPH program, U of Hawaii, Lingusitics program, and even San Jose State's MA TEFL Program, to even CMU up north, in the MA English programs...

YES.. indeed Professors, you do shape and model the final product... yes you do read.. really...the revision we write to PLEASE you or to GET it right. However, get off the horse you rode in on. Because a particular methodology you favor, was not used; this does not give you the Huevos to get off on " your experience is best" you're not the one doing the field work or paying the baht that may be needed.

In the limited time of this study, the parentalistic nature of the Thai Thesis advisor shows it many dimension of sticking to the status quo...what is more amazing is that many of these advisors have indeed received their Ph.Ds in the west..where..ah ahem academic standards are high..

"YES" do admit to lifting a few phrases or forgetting to reference the source of my quotes..and the TA calls you on it.. but Professors, how can I look you in the face, with academic respect, when according to some Thai graduate advisor, they consider their students work their own.

"YES, the Thesis Advisor relationship is important,however, it should be based on mutual respect... Tell, me professors, do Thai Professors practice this... is this ingrain in the academic culture..

Pretty much sounds like this: do as a I say, not as I do! logic.

Humm..

[vont]

I don't know what you are on about but you clearly have not been in academia for a very long time. That is fine and I doubt that you even possess a graduate degree let alone a PhD. If by chance that you do, you might have done some research on your own and have seen publications that list lots of co authors. Usually only one person actually wrote such papers many of the names are on because of some affiliation.

I did not once claim that I did this. I just said that it is common practice and in no way robs a student of their credit nor does it give false claim to the advisor. If a student working in the science field made a discovery solely on their own without any guidance whatsoever then of course they wouldn't put someone else's name on his/her paper, however that is seldom the case.

I am not a braggadocio like yourself, otherwise I would have bragged that I have taught at those universities and have been advisor to lots of students. I do indeed have a PhD. and 2 Master's degrees. I have been on committees at many universities in 7 different countries. I have never claimed to teach in Thailand but I have given some lectures and been on several boards and committees. I have published several journals, 2 books, and many articles in the past 15 years. I am quite familiar with academic practices, ethics and what is expected from both students and professors.

You my (not) friend do not have a grasp in academia at all and are biased by a personal set of beliefs that do not reflect the current field of academ

I myself am from the Humanities field and I do not or did not put names of my professors on my papers and I didn't require it myself.

"academician" I think that you are looking for the simple word academic. As this word doesn't exist.

"

any freshmen in any semi recognizable higher institution of learning would not refer to "apa" as you cited in your post, nor "turabian".... as book....."

A manual if you prefer, but since there are over 300 pages it would be considered a book to any person of recognizable intelligence which you must be without.

Do play nice professors: We (students) give credit to the thesis advisor in the acknowledgement page of the thesis that is appropriate. "YES" agreed sign of respect and all that jazz.

In checking with other Western universities, the practice of publishing and including the T-advisor's name on the article derived from the thesis all depends... be it a UC Berkeley MPH program, U of Hawaii, Lingusitics program, and even San Jose State's MA TEFL Program, to even CMU up north, in the MA English programs...

YES.. indeed Professors, you do shape and model the final product... yes you do read.. really...the revision we write to PLEASE you or to GET it right. However, get off the horse you rode in on. Because a particular methodology you favor, was not used; this does not give you the Huevos to get off on " your experience is best" you're not the one doing the field work or paying the baht that may be needed.

In the limited time of this study, the parentalistic nature of the Thai Thesis advisor shows it many dimension of sticking to the status quo...what is more amazing is that many of these advisors have indeed received their Ph.Ds in the west..where..ah ahem academic standards are high..

"YES" do admit to lifting a few phrases or forgetting to reference the source of my quotes..and the TA calls you on it.. but Professors, how can I look you in the face, with academic respect, when according to some Thai graduate advisor, they consider their students work their own.

"YES, the Thesis Advisor relationship is important,however, it should be based on mutual respect... Tell, me professors, do Thai Professors practice this... is this ingrain in the academic culture..

Pretty much sounds like this: do as a I say, not as I do! logic.

Humm..

oh plse, may i beg to have my last word.... to sort of gently wise up the lessor fellow phd .... lol

any one reading and comparing your posts and mine would immediately realize that there are distinct differences between the two authors;

1--as for you, you are confined to the norm, confined to the box and confined to what others expect of you.... and most importantly.... what must i do to impress others.

2--as for me, i do not even care to conform to english standardization, i write simply so others can understand my points and carry out my wishes. i do not need to impress my assistants or anyone else.

3--another major difference between you and me is.... you clearly work and toil for others needing constantly and consistently to prove your past and present performances, abilities and worth et al,

4--whereas in my life, others including some affiliates you mention and work for, are my annual beneficiary recipients.

5--as for my personal academic achievement, and since you brought it up to challenge first, i do hold a post doc in rei, a phd specializing in mental retardation, a ma in biz admin, a ms in psychology, and a bs in gen biz and several other acclaims.... including speaking at the National Science Foundation....

6--so, pls pls pls do be humble.... perhaps you do not know that within thaivisa herein there are also numerous other retired world renown nuclear scientists, physicists, biochemists et al who are on my mailing list.... you are really too boastful and too self-centered and conceited.... to be of any worthy social value to the general public, graduate and/or undergraduate students, i m h o.

7--from reading your posts the second time, it also appears that you hold a high esteem of yourself and tend to put others whom you do not yet know their status down.... which in and of itself is deemed as conceitedness.... but then i do not have the desire to correct you.

you know, just for your personal digestion, i often walked into governor's office in my gardening outfit in the middle of the day and he and his entire staff would never think i am showing him nor his office any ill respect.... i do not think for a minute that a person like yourself would have the ingenuity, gut and clout of this status quo.

8--and i think i can sum up and say that.... that is one last major different between you laboring in an academic box and me working outside of the box on behalf of the multitudes of less fortunates; all outside of the box looking in at all the fraudulent pretenders to the throne....

good day and good bye.... seriously now, good bye and don't bother any more, alright? Still want to wish you the best in life though. bye and gone.

Edited June 4, 2011 by vont

[Scott]

Let's keep it civil.

[Rhys]

lock and load... Ph.D.

Pretty high but Deeper.

Edited June 5, 2011 by Rhys

[FWIW]

I must admit, I am a bit confused by this thread.

The title says plagiarism, which is broadly the unattributed theft of ideas or concepts.

But the issue you are talking about here "is does the thesis advisor have a right to go on the paper".

How then is this plagiarism - your contribution would be fully acknowledged by the authorship.

If the advisor took your name off a draft paper, then published it under his alone, then indeed a case could be made for plagiarism.

However, the issue seems to be one of authorship. In general, there are pretty well known criteria regarding authorship. Most journals (where it is formally acknowledged) state the following:

Authorship credit should be based on

1) substantial contributions to conception and design, acquisition of data, or analysis and interpretation of data;

2) drafting the article or revising it critically for important intellectual content; and

3) final approval of the version to be published.

Authors should meet conditions 1, 2, and 3

this was taken essentially at random from the web afer a search for authorship contribution (sorry can't post the link but google 'authorship criteria", and go to first entry)

There are hundreds of other sites with essentially the same information.

So, the question is, does your advisor meet the authorship criteria or not? If he does meet, then ethically he must be included as an author.

Note the first one is tricky, as a contribution to conception and design (no need acquisition or analysis or interpretation) fulfiils the criteria for that section for authorship.

Did you discuss the project/study design with your supervisor? Did he give suggestions (used or not), did you go over the data and the conclusions? Did he input anything? If he did, again, he would meet the criteria for authorship.

Be also very aware of the flip side of this - if you do go ahead and publish without his name, and he complains to the journal that his contribution was not acknowledged appropriately - you could well find your paper retracted. Journals are pretty wary of getting involved in disputes over authorship - and tend to kick it back out to avoid getting involved in the argument. You would need a REALLY strong case to convince a journal that your thesis advisor did not warrant an authorship position.

You may also like to consider the many practicalities involved in getting a paper published. You may not be aware that many journals charge a publication fee. Either as page charges or as a flat processing fee. This can (in some cases) easily run to the best part of 100K baht (for an open access article) - you happy to pay those charges yourself?. Do you know how to select an appropriate journal, submit a paper, revise it in light of reviewers comments, convince an editor to publish?

And last, but not least, a very hard won and practical piece of advice: the aim here is to get your work published. In the end, in 5 or 10 years, it really will not matter a toss if there were 1, 2 or 5 authors on the paper, so long as yours was the first name.

Edited June 28, 2011 by FWIW

[Rhys]

I must admit, I am a bit confused by this thread.

The title says plagiarism, which is broadly the unattributed theft of ideas or concepts.

But the issue you are talking about here "is does the thesis advisor have a right to go on the paper".

How then is this plagiarism - your contribution would be fully acknowledged by the authorship.

If the advisor took your name off a draft paper, then published it under his alone, then indeed a case could be made for plagiarism.

However, the issue seems to be one of authorship. In general, there are pretty well known criteria regarding authorship. Most journals (where it is formally acknowledged) state the following:

Authorship credit should be based on

1) substantial contributions to conception and design, acquisition of data, or analysis and interpretation of data;

2) drafting the article or revising it critically for important intellectual content; and

3) final approval of the version to be published.

Authors should meet conditions 1, 2, and 3

this was taken essentially at random from the web afer a search for authorship contribution (sorry can't post the link but google 'authorship criteria", and go to first entry)

There are hundreds of other sites with essentially the same information.

So, the question is, does your advisor meet the authorship criteria or not? If he does meet, then ethically he must be included as an author.

Note the first one is tricky, as a contribution to conception and design (no need acquisition or analysis or interpretation) fulfiils the criteria for that section for authorship.

Did you discuss the project/study design with your supervisor? Did he give suggestions (used or not), did you go over the data and the conclusions? Did he input anything? If he did, again, he would meet the criteria for authorship.

Be also very aware of the flip side of this - if you do go ahead and publish without his name, and he complains to the journal that his contribution was not acknowledged appropriately - you could well find your paper retracted. Journals are pretty wary of getting involved in disputes over authorship - and tend to kick it back out to avoid getting involved in the argument. You would need a REALLY strong case to convince a journal that your thesis advisor did not warrant an authorship position.

You may also like to consider the many practicalities involved in getting a paper published. You may not be aware that many journals charge a publication fee. Either as page charges or as a flat processing fee. This can (in some cases) easily run to the best part of 100K baht (for an open access article) - you happy to pay those charges yourself?. Do you know how to select an appropriate journal, submit a paper, revise it in light of reviewers comments, convince an editor to publish?

And last, but not least, a very hard won and practical piece of advice: the aim here is to get your work published. In the end, in 5 or 10 years, it really will not matter a toss if there were 1, 2 or 5 authors on the paper, so long as yours was the first name.

Insightful, the practice within the Thai educational system displays a paternalistic tendency ...thus the by line on the publication..it is a matter of professionalism. Of course the Thesis advisor is performing their role ADVISING...They are acknowledged formally in a Thesis..and of course in other publication you do find the acknowledgement in the back, along with this research was funded in part by a grant from X...

Attending to authorship....Technically based, academically defended the justifications are in range...yet, explain to me, a simple definition of stealing someone elses words and ideas...even just a little bit...YES we plagiarize, yet the justification suit our purposes..

Thus as a a teacher, how do you look your students in the face and allow them to copy word by word,or copping out on a self serving explanation of.. this is not right, but we do it...anyway.

"YET, when it is all said and done, the names will appear in their proper places." The paper that represents higher learner, will be used to wipe the backside."

Hmmm..it is still wrong IMO..

Edited June 28, 2011 by Rhys

[endure]

Blimey it's s.c.t all over again

[Ijustwannateach]

What a strange thread....

I've never done any academic study at a Thai institution, but I have heard some strange things about the attitudes of some lecturers to plagiarism.

[FWIW]

Insightful, the practice within the Thai educational system displays a paternalistic tendency ...thus the by line on the publication..it is a matter of professionalism. Of course the Thesis advisor is performing their role ADVISING...They are acknowledged formally in a Thesis..and of course in other publication you do find the acknowledgement in the back, along with this research was funded in part by a grant from X...

Attending to authorship....Technically based, academically defended the justifications are in range...yet, explain to me, a simple definition of stealing someone elses words and ideas...even just a little bit...YES we plagiarize, yet the justification suit our purposes..

Thus as a a teacher, how do you look your students in the face and allow them to copy word by word,or copping out on a self serving explanation of.. this is not right, but we do it...anyway.

"YET, when it is all said and done, the names will appear in their proper places." The paper that represents higher learner, will be used to wipe the backside."

Hmmm..it is still wrong IMO..

You did not answer the question. Did your advisor contribute to the study in respect of design or implimentation, and analysis and interpretaion and preparation of the final work?

If the answer is yes, he should be an author. If the answer is no, he should not. Its quite simple.

The only possible question of plagiarism here is one of YOU plagiarising your advisor. If you present an idea or concept in the paper that was HIS idea or concept, you are the plagiarist - not him.

Lastly, I wish you the very, very best of luck in convincing your advisor to use HIS research grant to pay any publication costs if he is not an author on the paper.

Edited June 29, 2011 by FWIW

[FWIW]

What a strange thread....

I've never done any academic study at a Thai institution, but I have heard some strange things about the attitudes of some lecturers to plagiarism.

Several of the better Universities now make extensive use of "Turnitin", and encouage their staff to do so. So it comes down to whether you want to talk about individuals or Institutes. But it would be a mistake to think that this is a problem unique in Thailand - walk into any college campus around the world, and they will have the same problems.

[Rhys]

Insightful, the practice within the Thai educational system displays a paternalistic tendency ...thus the by line on the publication..it is a matter of professionalism. Of course the Thesis advisor is performing their role ADVISING...They are acknowledged formally in a Thesis..and of course in other publication you do find the acknowledgement in the back, along with this research was funded in part by a grant from X...

Attending to authorship....Technically based, academically defended the justifications are in range...yet, explain to me, a simple definition of stealing someone elses words and ideas...even just a little bit...YES we plagiarize, yet the justification suit our purposes..

Thus as a a teacher, how do you look your students in the face and allow them to copy word by word,or copping out on a self serving explanation of.. this is not right, but we do it...anyway.

"YET, when it is all said and done, the names will appear in their proper places." The paper that represents higher learner, will be used to wipe the backside."

Hmmm..it is still wrong IMO..

You did not answer the question. Did your advisor contribute to the study in respect of design or implimentation, and analysis and interpretaion and preparation of the final work?

If the answer is yes, he should be an author. If the answer is no, he should not. Its quite simple.

The only possible question of plagiarism here is one of YOU plagiarising your advisor. If you present an idea or concept in the paper that was HIS idea or concept, you are the plagiarist - not him.

Lastly, I wish you the very, very best of luck in convincing your advisor to use HIS research grant to pay any publication costs if he is not an author on the paper.

Sorry about that...the answer... the design is mine, the T-advisor and the committee approved it... the implementation is mine... I needed a Thai translator for data collection and translation..thus another issue...data analysis will be mine. These are my concepts..

It is a bit funny, but actually, I resisted all of T-advisor(s) suggestions for this very reason. Thus, I did not use any of their suggestions.. NOT one.. does a mis-spelling count or a protocol with APA count?

In response to the plagarism comments... in academic writing, how much of this is really our own writing, do we not use other writers' ideas, phrases to support our contentions, of course with proper referencing. Recently at the the TU TEFL conference-Voices in ELT, Dr. Bhatia from City U of Hong Kong, made the comment about this type of plagiarism and the interdiscursive collaborative contributions by participants in a finished product.

That was part of the springboard for this opinion.

Oddly, in a nice way, a Thai way, the T-advisor has offered a support factor in the guise of a grant to assist in the Thesis cost..Which of course, I refused...No free lunches and no moral obligations. Don't want it, don't need it.. I pay my own way...old school.

Of course the debate continues... I just don't think the T advisor name needs to be in the front...but do agree the T-advisor should be acknowledged for the effort and role in the shaping not writing....in the appropriate section... The T-advisor did not write the paper, I did.

The definition of plagiarism, constantly evolves...

I do thank you for your sources of information...extremely helpful.

I just don't think this is right..

Edited June 29, 2011 by Rhys

[FWIW]

In response to the plagarism comments... in academic writing, how much of this is really our own writing, do we not use other writers' ideas, phrases to support our contentions, of course with proper referencing.

The definition of plagiarism, constantly evolves...

I do thank you for your sources of information...extremely helpful.

As you note correctly, apropriate referencing is the critical element here. Plagiarism is essentially the unattributed theft of ideas or concepts, or perhaps passing off some one elses work/concept/idea as your own.

You can rightfully use another authors exact word - providing that you make it clear (often by using inverted commas around the quoted text) and giving the apropriate reference. You can use another persons published (note the caveat) ideas or concepts, providing you put it in your own words and provide the appropriate reference.

No work or study is done in a vacuum, you have to place it into context by reference to others work. Providing that you both use your own words, and approriately indicate the source of others ideas/concepts/theories whatever, you should have no problem. Saying: "So and So put forward the theory of everything (REF) in which he proposed........" is not plagiarism. Indeed, in writing a research paper it is an ethical breach NOT to cite relevant sources.

Anyway, there are thousands of sites on the web dealing with plagiarism. You might like to poke around. It is a tricky area.

For general publishing ethics matters, you might like to have a look at the COPE site, lots of interesting stuff on there mainly from the other side of the coin - its intended for publishers and journal editors, but look over the cases. Interesting stuff . One document you should go and have a look at is their document on how to handle authorship disputes: a guide for new researcher (I can't post links, but you can add the other bits of http and www):

publicationethics.org/files/2003pdf12.pdf

and the main COPE site is here:

publicationethics.org/

[Rhys]

In response to the plagarism comments... in academic writing, how much of this is really our own writing, do we not use other writers' ideas, phrases to support our contentions, of course with proper referencing.

The definition of plagiarism, constantly evolves...

I do thank you for your sources of information...extremely helpful.

As you note correctly, apropriate referencing is the critical element here. Plagiarism is essentially the unattributed theft of ideas or concepts, or perhaps passing off some one elses work/concept/idea as your own.

You can rightfully use another authors exact word - providing that you make it clear (often by using inverted commas around the quoted text) and giving the apropriate reference. You can use another persons published (note the caveat) ideas or concepts, providing you put it in your own words and provide the appropriate reference.

No work or study is done in a vacuum, you have to place it into context by reference to others work. Providing that you both use your own words, and approriately indicate the source of others ideas/concepts/theories whatever, you should have no problem. Saying: "So and So put forward the theory of everything (REF) in which he proposed........" is not plagiarism. Indeed, in writing a research paper it is an ethical breach NOT to cite relevant sources.

Anyway, there are thousands of sites on the web dealing with plagiarism. You might like to poke around. It is a tricky area.

For general publishing ethics matters, you might like to have a look at the COPE site, lots of interesting stuff on there mainly from the other side of the coin - its intended for publishers and journal editors, but look over the cases. Interesting stuff . One document you should go and have a look at is their document on how to handle authorship disputes: a guide for new researcher (I can't post links, but you can add the other bits of http and www):

publicationethics.org/files/2003pdf12.pdf

and the main COPE site is here:

publicationethics.org/

Appreciate the links...but remember, when push comes to shove, the dominant culture will prevail.