Thai Elite, Middle Class Cold To Unfavourable Poll Results

[erobando]

I note the comment about wealthy northerners and the likelihood that they would not support the PTP. I disagree. One of the characteristics of smaller cities and communities is that the wealthy are more integrated into those communities and they really are the pillars of society. By virtue of the "smallness" they are more likely to come in contact with their workers and the poor. They will go to the 7-11 rather than send the maid as is the case with the Bangkok wealthy that live behind the walls and in secured enclaves.

Actually, my comment was that the wealthy northerners won't vote Democrat.

But it has nothing to do with northerners being more enlightened... it's because PT's base is the north and Democrats historically do poor in the north. Oh, and also because PT is made up with and aligned with many northern elites.

And why won't rural southerners vote PT? Do you think that they don't have the political awareness of northerners?

[Buchholz]

As per the article;

The elite and the middle class believe [the masses] are easily bought and deceived," he said, during a symposium on post-electoral Thai politics organised by the Konrad Adenauer Foundation and the Institute of Democratisation Studies (IDS). He added that in fact the masses were not stupid and did negotiate politically.

Go into any thread on politics and someone is claiming that the supporters of a political party have been bought and paid for. One of my workies is a supporter of Thaksin and sympathetic to the redshirts. He has never received a payoff for that support. He feels that way because he is disenfranchised economically and socially. This is what alot of people don't get.

No, someone paid by a foundation set up by one of Thaksin's deputy PMs said that.

If your "workie" is not paid enough to be "economically franchised", then I suggest he take it up with his employer.

Good grief... the President of the Institute of Democratisation Studies (IDS) is sometime Red Shirt and Banned From Politics former Thai Rak Thai Party Leader Chaturon Chaisaeng.

Interesting this morning to learn of Chaturon's other current "job".

That of Yingluck's chief campaign strategist.... not that that would taint the banned-from-politics multi-millionaire's seminar on the elite in any way.

It is not easy for businesswoman Yingluck Shinawatra to project an image in her quest to become Thailand's first woman prime minister.

She depends on several teams to assist her in presenting an image as a professional working woman who offers to serve the country.

Her chief strategist is Chaturon Chaisaeng.

Edited June 6, 2011 by Buchholz

[Ricardo]

Well call me rather naive, but wouldn't it represent just a slight conflict-of-interest, for him to be Ms Yingluck's chief campaign strategist, and also to profess to be a neutral president of the IDS ?

And if he's a former TRT-leader, and currently serving a 5-year-ban from politics by the EC, doesn't that risk tainting her/PTP's campaign, if he's working politically like this ?

Amazing Thailand !

[KarenBravo]

A more apt Churchill quote would be "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." 1947, after he won the war and then lost the subsequent election. Worth remembering in a country that averages one coup every four years.

An even more apt Churchill quote would be:-

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter"

[swillowbee]

... Pheu Thai wins ... the ruling ammart claim corrupt elections ... Yellows take to the streets ... ruling ammart file to disqualify the Pheu Thai party ... then, Reds civil unrest ... a military coup follows.

... Democrats win ... the poor prai claim corrupt elections ... Reds take to the streets ... they don't even attempt to disqualify the Democrat party, the process over which is controlled by the ruling ammart ... a military coup follows.

... my bet is that we are under military rule within 90-120 days of the election.

... the difference between this threatening coup and prior coups is that the others have been politically based coups over which the Army easily rolls ... this coup could be quite different ... class warfare, in which the opposition has found their voice and lost their fear, and are armed and motivated ... not dissimilar to what in happening in the Middle East to very similar societies.

... that, the Army is ill-prepared to confront, and from which they are incapable of exiting.

... please ... someone show me how a military coup does NOT happen.

Edited June 6, 2011 by swillowbee

[whybother]

... Pheu Thai wins ... the ruling ammart claim corrupt elections ... Yellows take to the streets ... ruling ammart file to disqualify the Pheu Thai party ... then, Reds civil unrest ... a military coup follows.

... Democrats win ... the poor prai claim corrupt elections ... Reds take to the streets ... they don't even attempt to disqualify the Democrat party, the process over which is controlled by the ruling ammart ... a military coup follows.

... my bet is that we are under military rule within 90-120 days of the election.

Based on your assumptions here, there should have been a coup in May last year.

IMO, the only reason there will be a coup, is if the PTP get in and start whitewashing Thaksin's crimes. The re-invigorated yellow shirts will be out on the streets protesting. There will be a crackdown on them by the police. There will be a coup.

If the PTP don't do anything along the lines of an amnesty and letting Thaksin avoid jail, there won't be yellow shirt protests, and there won't be a coup.

If the Democrats get into government (this will only happen with a coalition), the red shirts will be back on the streets because ... well, because they lost. There won't be a coup if the Democrats are in government.

... the difference between this threatening coup and prior coups is that the others have been politically based coups over which the Army easily rolls ... this coup could be quite different ... class warfare, in which the opposition has found their voice and lost their fear, and are armed and motivated ... not dissimilar to what in happening in the Middle East to very similar societies.

... that, the Army is ill-prepared to confront, and from which they are incapable of exiting.

... please ... someone show me how a military coup does NOT happen.

Please, the issues in Thailand have nothing to do with class. It's two groups of elites fighting over who gets to be in power.

Look at the structure of the red leadership. Does that look like the poor lower class to you?

[swillowbee]

... just came upon a press release by the UDD stating to what the Thai Elite, Middle Class should be cold ... published by the UDD before the burning and shooting started last May ... sort of their manifesto ... an interesting read, in the same genre as the American Declaration of Independence:

“Thailand has existed as a democracy in name but not substance for too long. We have stood by as our elected governments were brought down by the might of vested interests. We have endured the hijacking of our media and our judicial system. We have remained silent as those who would lead us failed time and time again to address our legitimate concerns. But a turning point is about to be reached in Thai history.

We, the United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD) are determined to see Thailand become a nation where the principles of democracy, human rights, and equal justice are not only espoused but upheld. As such, we stand opposed to the illegitimate government of Abhisit Vejjajiva and the aristocracy that backs him. In the coming months, we will launch a campaign aimed at uniting the Thai people in opposition to this junta and bringing about free and fair elections. This campaign is based upon 6 principles:

1) Achieving the goal of establishing a genuine democracy that has the King as our Head of State, with political power belonging exclusively to the people. We reject any attempt, past or future, at using the monarchy to silence dissent or advance a particular agenda.

2) Dissolving the 2007 Constitution and restoring the 1997 Constitution, which may then be amended through a transparent, consultative and democratic process.

3) Bringing Thais together in an effort to solve our political and socio-economic problems, recognizing that such efforts must stem from the power of the people.

4) Implementing the rule of law, due process and a system of equal justice for all, free of any obstructions or double-standards.

5) Uniting all Thais who love democracy, equality, and equal justice within all facets of society, in an effort to deconstruct and move beyond the Amartyatippatai (Aristocracy) system.

6 ) Using exclusively non-violent means to achieve these objectives. We are a peaceful movement, whereas the aristocracy maintains its power through the barrel of a gun. We know that the coming struggle will be as long as it is painful. But our cause is virtuous, just as the status quo is unacceptable. In the coming months, the establishment will use every means at its disposal in its efforts to counter us, including lies and propaganda, legal wrangling, intimidation and violence. This is an opponent that supported the hijacking of our airports and the use of military force to bring down an elected government and suppress the dissenting public. But whatever they throw at us, we will endure it, and we will succeed."

[whybother]

Yes. We now know how much notice they took of their manifesto.

... published by the UDD before the burning and shooting started last May ... sort of their manifesto ... an interesting read, in the same genre as the American Declaration of Independence:

...

6 ) Using exclusively non-violent means to achieve these objectives. We are a peaceful movement, whereas the aristocracy maintains its power through the barrel of a gun. We know that the coming struggle will be as long as it is painful. But our cause is virtuous, just as the status quo is unacceptable. In the coming months, the establishment will use every means at its disposal in its efforts to counter us, including lies and propaganda, legal wrangling, intimidation and violence. This is an opponent that supported the hijacking of our airports and the use of military force to bring down an elected government and suppress the dissenting public. But whatever they throw at us, we will endure it, and we will succeed."

[swillowbee]

Yes. We now know how much notice they took of their manifesto.

... published by the UDD before the burning and shooting started last May ... sort of their manifesto ... an interesting read, in the same genre as the American Declaration of Independence:

...

6 ) Using exclusively non-violent means to achieve these objectives. We are a peaceful movement, whereas the aristocracy maintains its power through the barrel of a gun. We know that the coming struggle will be as long as it is painful. But our cause is virtuous, just as the status quo is unacceptable. In the coming months, the establishment will use every means at its disposal in its efforts to counter us, including lies and propaganda, legal wrangling, intimidation and violence. This is an opponent that supported the hijacking of our airports and the use of military force to bring down an elected government and suppress the dissenting public. But whatever they throw at us, we will endure it, and we will succeed."

... no argument there whybother ... BUT ... Thailand is not a society in which we might expect to see discipline, or organization, or self-control, or planning, or communication, and on, and on ... I see these characteristics in very few aspects of Thai society, much less something as complex and difficult as changing the very foundations of the Thai political, economic, legal, judicial, educational, and social orders, as they state is their goal.

... that their movement is manipulated and hijacked by criminal politicians is unsurprising, despite the best efforts of movement members with sincere high-minded goals ... being so easily misled is one of the symptoms of a largely uneducated society not taught independent critical thinking, and to prostrate themselves at the feet of anyone and anything with a uniform, money, a royally bestowed name or title, celebrity status, a Mercedes, whiter skin than them, whatever.

... they can be as wreckless as a nation of children ... I don't see it as Hutus v. Tutsis, but more like French Revolution ... frankly, that is expected ... I believe nothing will prevent them from rising ... they've found their voices and lost their fear.

[whybother]

...

... I believe nothing will prevent them from rising ... they've found their voices and lost their fear.

Especially since their movement has been "manipulated and hijacked by criminal politicians".

[swillowbee]

... Pheu Thai wins ... the ruling ammart claim corrupt elections ... Yellows take to the streets ... ruling ammart file to disqualify the Pheu Thai party ... then, Reds civil unrest ... a military coup follows.

... Democrats win ... the poor prai claim corrupt elections ... Reds take to the streets ... they don't even attempt to disqualify the Democrat party, the process over which is controlled by the ruling ammart ... a military coup follows.

... my bet is that we are under military rule within 90-120 days of the election.

Based on your assumptions here, there should have been a coup in May last year.

IMO, the only reason there will be a coup, is if the PTP get in and start whitewashing Thaksin's crimes. The re-invigorated yellow shirts will be out on the streets protesting. There will be a crackdown on them by the police. There will be a coup.

If the PTP don't do anything along the lines of an amnesty and letting Thaksin avoid jail, there won't be yellow shirt protests, and there won't be a coup.

If the Democrats get into government (this will only happen with a coalition), the red shirts will be back on the streets because ... well, because they lost. There won't be a coup if the Democrats are in government.

... the difference between this threatening coup and prior coups is that the others have been politically based coups over which the Army easily rolls ... this coup could be quite different ... class warfare, in which the opposition has found their voice and lost their fear, and are armed and motivated ... not dissimilar to what in happening in the Middle East to very similar societies.

... that, the Army is ill-prepared to confront, and from which they are incapable of exiting.

... please ... someone show me how a military coup does NOT happen.

Please, the issues in Thailand have nothing to do with class. It's two groups of elites fighting over who gets to be in power.

Look at the structure of the red leadership. Does that look like the poor lower class to you?

... as I mentioned above, the leadership of the Reds is certainly not made of prai ... as you point out, I too believe the leadership is all about shuffling who owns this country ... if they succeed, Thailand will be moved toward oligarchy, or worse - cleptocracy.

... smart crooks that they are, the Reds leadership are using the easily misled poor as the bludgeon to acquire the political power to achieve that goal ... they MAKE class struggle the tool for change ... working pretty good for them so far.

... as to coup, or no coup ... you believe "the only reason there will be a coup, is if the PTP get in and start whitewashing Thaksin's crimes" ... gosh ... do you think that is even remotely possible? ... Thaksin will deftly make his way to the front lines ... wearing fatigues, he will be heralded as a folk hero, "always at their side, with every volley fired by the Army and every crack of the elite's truncheons" ... uh, I make it a bloody certainty his crimes will be whitewashed.

... you also believe that "There won't be a coup if the Democrats are in government." ... I respectfully disagree ... I sense a fundamental change in Thai society ... the Reds will take to the streets in greater force than in Bloody May, when they were poorly prepared for armed confrontation ... I believe they will not make that mistake again ... they will be armed, better organized and ideologically committed ... this third point is important, as Thais have hereto forth generally lacked any real sense of ideological commitment ... as the Arabs, Thais now see their system for what it is, compared to what it can be ... I beleive they will tolerate it no longer.

... I believe this is going to get rough ... and that a coup is inevitable.

Edited June 6, 2011 by swillowbee

[whybother]

...

... you also believe that "There won't be a coup if the Democrats are in government." ... I respectfully disagree ... I sense a fundamental change in Thai society ... the Reds will take to the streets in greater force than in Bloody May, when they were poorly prepared for armed confrontation ... I believe they will not make that mistake again ... they will be armed, better organized and ideologically committed ... this third point is important, as Thais have hereto forth generally lacked any real sense of ideological commitment ... as the Arabs, Thais now see their system for what it is, compared to what it can be ... I beleive they will tolerate it no longer.

... I believe this is going to get rough ... a coup is inevitable.

They were pretty well prepared considering they were "peaceful protesters".

"they will be <BETTER> armed, better organized and ideologically committed"

They will be hijacked and manipulated, as has already happened.

The red shirts aren't fighting for a better system. They are fighting for a different leader of the system.

The Arab uprisings were against people that have been ruling their countries with an iron fist for 20-30 years. Unless your suggesting that the red shirts are fighting to overthrow someone that has been in power for that long, there is no comparison to Thailand.

[swillowbee]

...

... you also believe that "There won't be a coup if the Democrats are in government." ... I respectfully disagree ... I sense a fundamental change in Thai society ... the Reds will take to the streets in greater force than in Bloody May, when they were poorly prepared for armed confrontation ... I believe they will not make that mistake again ... they will be armed, better organized and ideologically committed ... this third point is important, as Thais have hereto forth generally lacked any real sense of ideological commitment ... as the Arabs, Thais now see their system for what it is, compared to what it can be ... I beleive they will tolerate it no longer.

... I believe this is going to get rough ... a coup is inevitable.

They were pretty well prepared considering they were "peaceful protesters".

"they will be <BETTER> armed, better organized and ideologically committed"

They will be hijacked and manipulated, as has already happened.

The red shirts aren't fighting for a better system. They are fighting for a different leader of the system.

The Arab uprisings were against people that have been ruling their countries with an iron fist for 20-30 years. Unless your suggesting that the red shirts are fighting to overthrow someone that has been in power for that long, there is no comparison to Thailand.

... actually, I believe there is a high correlation between the Arab systems and the Thai system ... both systems have served to oppress, suppress and render subservient their people ... the ruling elites are left to share in the spoils and privileges.

... the Arabs have used more brute force, and held power through strict monarchies for generations, while Thailand's elite families have managed to remain at the top of the heap, though Thailand is a constitutional monarchy ... that requires a bit more work ... sure, both use censorship, and both use the Army's guns and the police's truncheons, and both use more sinister behaviors against threats to them.

... but, Thais have achieved their control over the masses in far more nuanced ways ... more of a pacification ... the Thais seem almost to abide willingly, as though this is all they know and how life should be ... shielded from a different reality of the world about them until recent generation, it actually is all they know ... don't ask questions, mai pen rai, kreng jai, you think too much, be happy with what you have, we are superior to farang, etc.

... for generations (I am guessing), purposefully deformed Thai institutions have all colluded to prevent the lower class Thais from threatening the elites ... the social order, enforced through kreng jai, serves to prevent the lower class from threatening beyond their lowly caste ... the interminably corrupt judicial system serves to protect the elites from any threats from the unfortunate lower class Thais who might seek legal recourse ... the passive faith emphasizing that you cannot influence your fate and to want nothing (and accept your lot in life, you'll get yours in the next life) practiced here works pretty well and prevents any lower class from threatening the sin of ambition (but, just try taking a baht from an elite, or stand in front of a Mercedes and make a disparaging gesture ... be prepared to be run-down and killed) ... the periennially incompetent education system has effectively cut the brains from millions of Thai children ... the 4th estate of government (the controlled media) keeps uncomfortable truths from being too widely known ... other unmentionable institutions have all played their parts, as well ... it goes on, and on.

... perhaps Thais are now seeing through it all, and want their piece of the booty.

... yes ... I actually do see the Thai world similarly suppressed and oppressed as the Arab world ... the tools used are different (the Thai tools being less blunt), but the result is the same ... my bet is that the Thais, similar to the Arabs, will continue driving for a new order ... as you point out, maybe not a new system, but the order reshuffled, with them on top ... (so they they think).

Edited June 6, 2011 by swillowbee

[whybother]

... actually, I believe there is a high correlation between the Arab systems and the Thai system ... both systems have served to oppress, suppress and render subservient their people ... the ruling elites are left to share in the spoils and privileges.

... the Arabs have used more brute force, and held power through strict monarchies for generations, while Thailand's elite families have managed to remain at the top of the heap, though Thailand is a constitutional monarchy ... that requires a bit more work ... sure, both use censorship, and both use the Army's guns and the police's truncheons, and both use more sinister behaviors against threats to them.

... but, Thais have achieved their control over the masses in far more nuanced ways ... more of a pacification ... the Thais seem almost to abide willingly, as though this is all they know and how life should be ... shielded from a different reality of the world about them until recent generation, it actually is all they know ... don't ask questions, mai pen rai, kreng jai, you think too much, be happy with what you have, we are superior to farang, etc.

... for generations (I am guessing), purposefully deformed Thai institutions have all colluded to prevent the lower class Thais from threatening the elites ... the social order, enforced through kreng jai, serves to prevent the lower class from threatening beyond their lowly caste ... the interminably corrupt judicial system serves to protect the elites from any threats from the unfortunate lower class Thais who might seek legal recourse ... the passive faith emphasizing to want nothing and accept your lot in live practiced here works pretty well and prevents any lower class from threatening the sin of ambition (but, just try taking a baht from an elite, or stand in front of a Mercedes and make a disparaging gesture ... be prepared to be run-down and killed) ... the periennially incompetent education system has effectively cut the brains from millions of Thai children ... the 4th estate of government (the controlled media) keeps uncomfortable truths from being too widely known ... other unmentionable institutions have all played their parts, as well.

... perhaps Thais are now seeing through it all, and want their piece of the booty.

... yes ... I actually do see the Thai world similarly suppressed and oppressed as the Arab world ... the tools used are different (the Thai tools being less blunt), but the result is the same ... my bet is that the Thais, similar to the Arabs, will continue driving for a new order ... as you point out, maybe not a new system, but the order reshuffled, with them on top ... (so they they think).

What you've described may be true ... but it doesn't relate to the red shirts and their leaders.

The red shirts are fighting for a reshuffle of the people already at the top.

[swillowbee]

... actually, I believe there is a high correlation between the Arab systems and the Thai system ... both systems have served to oppress, suppress and render subservient their people ... the ruling elites are left to share in the spoils and privileges.

... the Arabs have used more brute force, and held power through strict monarchies for generations, while Thailand's elite families have managed to remain at the top of the heap, though Thailand is a constitutional monarchy ... that requires a bit more work ... sure, both use censorship, and both use the Army's guns and the police's truncheons, and both use more sinister behaviors against threats to them.

... but, Thais have achieved their control over the masses in far more nuanced ways ... more of a pacification ... the Thais seem almost to abide willingly, as though this is all they know and how life should be ... shielded from a different reality of the world about them until recent generation, it actually is all they know ... don't ask questions, mai pen rai, kreng jai, you think too much, be happy with what you have, we are superior to farang, etc.

... for generations (I am guessing), purposefully deformed Thai institutions have all colluded to prevent the lower class Thais from threatening the elites ... the social order, enforced through kreng jai, serves to prevent the lower class from threatening beyond their lowly caste ... the interminably corrupt judicial system serves to protect the elites from any threats from the unfortunate lower class Thais who might seek legal recourse ... the passive faith emphasizing to want nothing and accept your lot in live practiced here works pretty well and prevents any lower class from threatening the sin of ambition (but, just try taking a baht from an elite, or stand in front of a Mercedes and make a disparaging gesture ... be prepared to be run-down and killed) ... the periennially incompetent education system has effectively cut the brains from millions of Thai children ... the 4th estate of government (the controlled media) keeps uncomfortable truths from being too widely known ... other unmentionable institutions have all played their parts, as well.

... perhaps Thais are now seeing through it all, and want their piece of the booty.

... yes ... I actually do see the Thai world similarly suppressed and oppressed as the Arab world ... the tools used are different (the Thai tools being less blunt), but the result is the same ... my bet is that the Thais, similar to the Arabs, will continue driving for a new order ... as you point out, maybe not a new system, but the order reshuffled, with them on top ... (so they they think).

What you've described may be true ... but it doesn't relate to the red shirts and their leaders.

The red shirts are fighting for a reshuffle of the people already at the top.

... whybother ... what did I write does not relate to the Red shirts and their leaders? ... that's all I wrote about ... lower class prai being misled by crooks at the top, thinking they will get now a piece of the booty from a corrupt Thai system that perfectly suits Thai society and cultural values, previously the exclusive reserve of the elites.

... the Arabs, in a strict monarchy, are doing the same thing ... seeking to replace the corrupt rulers at the top of their heap with their corrupt tribal chieftains, for a bigger piece of the ill-gotten booty in a similarly interminably corrupt system and culture.

... what did I miss?

[whybother]

... whybother ... what did I write does not relate to the Red shirts and their leaders? ... that's all I wrote about ... lower class prai being misled by crooks at the top, thinking they will get now a piece of the booty from a corrupt Thai system that perfectly suits Thai society and cultural values, previously the exclusive reserve of the elites.

... the Arabs, in a strict monarchy, are doing the same thing ... seeking to replace the corrupt rulers at the top of their heap with their corrupt tribal chieftains, for a bigger piece of the ill-gotten booty in a similarly interminably corrupt system and culture.

... what did I miss?

You talked about the elite keeping the poor down, and the poor rising up against the elite.

That isn't the case here.

[whybother]

... whybother ... what did I write does not relate to the Red shirts and their leaders? ... that's all I wrote about ... lower class prai being misled by crooks at the top, thinking they will get now a piece of the booty from a corrupt Thai system that perfectly suits Thai society and cultural values, previously the exclusive reserve of the elites.

... the Arabs, in a strict monarchy, are doing the same thing ... seeking to replace the corrupt rulers at the top of their heap with their corrupt tribal chieftains, for a bigger piece of the ill-gotten booty in a similarly interminably corrupt system and culture.

... what did I miss?

You talked about the elite keeping the poor down, and the poor rising up against the elite.

That isn't the case here.

Actually, I should clarify. That isn't the case in relation to the red shirts.

The red elite is no different to the rest of them.

[tragickingdom]

Less educated is actually "Better educated" in Thailand. Poorer means in more case more decent than rich. There will be a moment that when an army does not accept the vote of the people, the army has to run for the people themselves. Unfortunately Thais have falsified history when it was more convenient and the schools of the elite does not seem to teach how dictators and military leaders ended up behind bars 30, 40 years after they raped democracy.

[letitbe]

What did Winston Churchill say, You can fool all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time, but not all the people all of the time... Winnie had never been to Thailand... obviously..!!

I think that you will find this homily is attributed to Abe Lincoln. One thing that Winston did say was 'Jaw, jaw, is better than War, war." The Thai populace might keep that truism in mind.

A more apt Churchill quote would be "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." 1947, after he won the war and then lost the subsequent election. Worth remembering in a country that averages one coup every four years.

Hitler Mugabwie Saddam Gaddafi where all elected Try telling their victims that democracy is best form of government

[letitbe]

Act as Pawns... Treated as Pawns.

Well said and totally true of red masses They will satay virtual slaves while Taksin and his top thugs laugh all way to the bank and worse try and impose total rule under their dear leaders or should I say dear brother as in north Korea Well done all Taksin supporters for keeping poor in serfdom if taksin wins. At least their was a chance of some decency under dems theirs not even ant pretence at decency

[JurgenG]

Hitler Mugabwie Saddam Gaddafi where all elected Try telling their victims that democracy is best form of government

I get your point.

Kim Jong-Il 's never been elected.

I'm sure people in North Korea are delighted to know that democracy is such a failure

[letitbe]

Act as Pawns... Treated as Pawns.

Well said and totally true of red masses They will satay virtual slaves while Taksin and his top thugs laugh all way to the bank and worse try and impose total rule under their dear leaders or should I say dear brother as in north Korea Well done all Taksin supporters for keeping poor in serfdom if taksin wins. At least their was a chance of some decency under dems theirs not even ant pretence at decency

[letitbe]

very true - hence the backlash - it's surprising how many posters here support this elite system. It's been my experience that 90% of farang I meet are more 'yellow' then 'red' - why is that? nothing to do with comprehension I'm convinced - but more to do with being raised and making their living in countries with wealth. More a lack of empathy? a resistance to support the oppressed? interesting...

I was quite neutral until I started working with the elite and then decided I really didn't like their attitudes to less well off people that puts me in the 10% I wonder if the other 90% have ever met the Thai elite? I doubt they would still be yellow after doing so.

ive seen same with wealthy red supporters they are all disgusting but wait and see how Taksin and his top lot treat poor just pawns fit for garbage can. I agree about a lot of rich elite what you sont see and I have is rich red supporters treating their maids and rest exactly same and saying if you treat them better they will only bite you. Look around and you might open your eyes especially if youve lived here 15 or more years like some of us. Ive met them both Taksin hiso supporters and elite and theirs nothing between them as far as treating the poor

[letitbe]

... actually, I believe there is a high correlation between the Arab systems and the Thai system ... both systems have served to oppress, suppress and render subservient their people ... the ruling elites are left to share in the spoils and privileges.

... the Arabs have used more brute force, and held power through strict monarchies for generations, while Thailand's elite families have managed to remain at the top of the heap, though Thailand is a constitutional monarchy ... that requires a bit more work ... sure, both use censorship, and both use the Army's guns and the police's truncheons, and both use more sinister behaviors against threats to them.

... but, Thais have achieved their control over the masses in far more nuanced ways ... more of a pacification ... the Thais seem almost to abide willingly, as though this is all they know and how life should be ... shielded from a different reality of the world about them until recent generation, it actually is all they know ... don't ask questions, mai pen rai, kreng jai, you think too much, be happy with what you have, we are superior to farang, etc.

... for generations (I am guessing), purposefully deformed Thai institutions have all colluded to prevent the lower class Thais from threatening the elites ... the social order, enforced through kreng jai, serves to prevent the lower class from threatening beyond their lowly caste ... the interminably corrupt judicial system serves to protect the elites from any threats from the unfortunate lower class Thais who might seek legal recourse ... the passive faith emphasizing to want nothing and accept your lot in live practiced here works pretty well and prevents any lower class from threatening the sin of ambition (but, just try taking a baht from an elite, or stand in front of a Mercedes and make a disparaging gesture ... be prepared to be run-down and killed) ... the periennially incompetent education system has effectively cut the brains from millions of Thai children ... the 4th estate of government (the controlled media) keeps uncomfortable truths from being too widely known ... other unmentionable institutions have all played their parts, as well.

... perhaps Thais are now seeing through it all, and want their piece of the booty.

... yes ... I actually do see the Thai world similarly suppressed and oppressed as the Arab world ... the tools used are different (the Thai tools being less blunt), but the result is the same ... my bet is that the Thais, similar to the Arabs, will continue driving for a new order ... as you point out, maybe not a new system, but the order reshuffled, with them on top ... (so they they think).

What you've described may be true ... but it doesn't relate to the red shirts and their leaders.

The red shirts are fighting for a reshuffle of the people already at the top.

well said and all poor will get is more suppression under dear brother Taksin. Its a shame their seems to be no honest leaders here or ones who care anything for thailand or the poor. It is almost certianly going to get very bloody and as usual the pawns in game will suffer most. Its a shame most of suppressed wont even understand how they have been used for the evil of 1 single man and his lieutenants

[JurgenG]

Act as Pawns... Treated as Pawns.

Well said and totally true of red masses They will satay virtual slaves while Taksin and his top thugs laugh all way to the bank and worse try and impose total rule under their dear leaders or should I say dear brother as in north Korea Well done all Taksin supporters for keeping poor in serfdom if taksin wins. At least their was a chance of some decency under dems theirs not even ant pretence at decency

You're right, that the way they have been treated until now.

Now they realize their vote matters

Today it's Thaksin, tomorrow it will be someone else

Your post is so patronizing, the smart educated people (read democrats ) gave them their chance ... decency ... those poor bastard are so dumb and dirty ....

The more the democrats try to buy votes, the more people realize the true value of their vote.

And the more they're definitively going to vote.

Unfortunately probably not for the democrats

[letitbe]

Less educated is actually "Better educated" in Thailand. Poorer means in more case more decent than rich. There will be a moment that when an army does not accept the vote of the people, the army has to run for the people themselves. Unfortunately Thais have falsified history when it was more convenient and the schools of the elite does not seem to teach how dictators and military leaders ended up behind bars 30, 40 years after they raped democracy.

exactly 30,40 years after Taksin and Reds if they win will be gone to be replaced by their clones but during that time as everywhere Taksin and his mob will wreck and ruin and probably kill many lives most of them being poor. Id rather another coup and some lives saved. I dont want to see my family here have of live through 30-40 years of Taksins madness before my grandchildren can live in a decent place. I have therefore made plans and am in process of selling what we can of our assets and moving them to safer places. I know this is selfish and appreciate I am fortunate to be able to protect my family at least to some degree from what seems inevitable but I make no apology for it. I just feel sorry for innocent poor Thais many who have totally supported me and my family for 15 years and most who are just decent people but red to core due to constant brainwashing. They believe Taksin will bring them a much better life and sadly they will remain serfs just selling their votes and labour for what 500 baht or a little more. None of them are hungry none of them totally lack some form of education for their children. All of them get basic health care free or club together in their family units. All of them have free electricity motor bikes and fridges. We are indeed wealthy as lords compared to their lot but by no means can you compare their lives with millions in Africa or elsewhere. In fact I have been in slums where a number of my wifes family still live and they are nowhere as bad as ive seen in USA or europe. I would really welcome that they got a bit more but Taksin is not going to improve their lot 1 bit in fact it will almost certainly get worse as did people of Zimbabwie Cambodia and rest.

[letitbe]

Hitler Mugabwie Saddam Gaddafi where all elected Try telling their victims that democracy is best form of government

I get your point.

Kim Jong-Il 's never been elected.

I'm sure people in North Korea are delighted to know that democracy is such a failure

ok poetic licence but my point is valid and a lot of evil men in world like Hitler where elected in a democracy. Sorry for letting my message be muddled by not exactly 100% accurate facts but its just nit picking. Ill look it up to see how Kim Jong-ii got into power. Ido however know a lot of north koreans here who send their kids to top schools and dont even accept that people of South Korea are thousands of times better off while ive seen impartial documentaries of how a lot of north koreans live and its all same sort of brainwashing as red shirts do here. Whole point is im sure victims of all these evil men would rather have some form of decent life instead of democracy. These days I could live in China or Laos both non elected and non democratic. As long as im left alone to do my best to try and raise my family and theirs some form of social safety net be it state or family then it is better than what I believe is possible under Taksin. I said possible not totally sure and if Taksin turns out to be just another robber baron it will just sadden me but not make me and my family leave.

Problem is I think he is quite capable over years of being much worse

[lannarebirth]

Hitler Mugabwie Saddam Gaddafi where all elected Try telling their victims that democracy is best form of government

I get your point.

Kim Jong-Il 's never been elected.

I'm sure people in North Korea are delighted to know that democracy is such a failure

Almost evrything I've seen you post here isn't true, but as most of it is hyperbole and personal opinion it gets to stand. I'm sure all your other facts are as accurate as this one:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/09/world/asia/09iht-north.1.20696199.html

[letitbe]

Act as Pawns... Treated as Pawns.

Well said and totally true of red masses They will satay virtual slaves while Taksin and his top thugs laugh all way to the bank and worse try and impose total rule under their dear leaders or should I say dear brother as in north Korea Well done all Taksin supporters for keeping poor in serfdom if taksin wins. At least their was a chance of some decency under dems theirs not even ant pretence at decency

You're right, that the way they have been treated until now.

Now they realize their vote matters

Today it's Thaksin, tomorrow it will be someone else

Your post is so patronizing, the smart educated people (read democrats ) gave them their chance ... decency ... those poor bastard are so dumb and dirty ....

The more the democrats try to buy votes, the more people realize the true value of their vote.

And the more they're definitively going to vote.

Unfortunately probably not for the democrats

[lannarebirth]

Act as Pawns... Treated as Pawns.

Well said and totally true of red masses They will satay virtual slaves while Taksin and his top thugs laugh all way to the bank and worse try and impose total rule under their dear leaders or should I say dear brother as in north Korea Well done all Taksin supporters for keeping poor in serfdom if taksin wins. At least their was a chance of some decency under dems theirs not even ant pretence at decency

You're right, that the way they have been treated until now.

Now they realize their vote matters

Today it's Thaksin, tomorrow it will be someone else

Your post is so patronizing, the smart educated people (read democrats ) gave them their chance ... decency ... those poor bastard are so dumb and dirty ....

The more the democrats try to buy votes, the more people realize the true value of their vote.

And the more they're definitively going to vote.

Unfortunately probably not for the democrats

Now I know you weren't actually here for the Thaksin administration. If you were you'd have seen all his machinations to ensure that it would be "today Thaksin and tomorrow there can be no one else". Never studied despotism in school I imagine, eh?

Edited June 24, 2011 by lannarebirth