Bitcoins As A Medium Of Exchange

[Naam]

No-one has yet answered my question. Can I use bitcoins to buy my breakfast?

i think you can but i'm not sure about the procedure. perhaps you shove the thumbdrive with your bitcoins up his/hers whoever serves the breakfast?

[Darvil]

Darvil is making some really good points that show how you can protect this medium of exchange (like a virtual vault) and also you can do things like duplicate your "money" which have no traditional cash equivalent.

i don't deny that some of his points are good. what i'm saying is that "bitcoins" will be limited to "bits" of this planets population who will invest "bits" of their money in exchange for virtual "bits" on a thumbdrive or where ever. what lacks in the equation is that 78% of the worlds population don't have and will never have access to virtual bits and/or thumbdrives and if they had they wouldn't trust bitcoins but prefer tangible fiat money in their pockets. the latter is not limited to those without virtual access to "bits". even the lion share of those who are used to buy and pay virtually using online services will never participate in a scheme that can't be controlled by conventional means such as a court of law if and when fraudulent procedures surface. and nobody can convince me that fraud is not possible.

moreover, when i hear "maximum 21mm" i feel like "Enterprise! one to beam up. too many virtual tulip speculators down here."

I'll bite.

I'm not sure where you got your 78 percent number? Does that mean only 22 percent of the world have access to the internet and/or have smart phones? Bitcoins can be sent to where ever there is a thing called the internet. Mobile apps will be incoming shortly.

You're right of course that it is going to take sometime for people to trust it. I mean how many years before people started using paypal even with the crappy fees they charge? People have to realize the advantages first and slowly switch to the new concept. I never thought this was going to be easy or the fact it would completely replace fiat currency.

Of course I don't expect someone who has never touched a computer to start using things like thumbdrives and virtual currency. Its the same reason why my stepdad will never use email or use a smart phone or an mp3 player. I don't expect these people to pick up "virtual currency" either. For them there is fiat currency which they grew up with and feel comfortable with. Virtual currency is not for those who prefer to dig their backyard and bury paper money instead of using encrypted drives. The new system is not for people like that. Its for the younger, savvy, perhaps more optimistic crowd. What I do know for a fact is that time passes and these people who can't use anything but old cassette tapes or VHS will be replaced by younger people. By then, hopefully and optimistically, the stranglehold of fiat currency will be loosen. I can only dream right?

As for the maximum 21 million which you mentioned, the first 20 million will be all mined around 2030 so this is going to be a long speculation. From here the miners will be appeased by transactions cost. The network itself adjust the difficulty so when more miners get in, the difficulty is increased or vice versa. The actual 21 million will be mined by 2140. I do hope in 100+ years we'll have a better system then what we have now

[midas]

Darvil is making some really good points that show how you can protect this medium of exchange (like a virtual vault) and also you can do things like duplicate your "money" which have no traditional cash equivalent.

i don't deny that some of his points are good. what i'm saying is that "bitcoins" will be limited to "bits" of this planets population who will invest "bits" of their money in exchange for virtual "bits" on a thumbdrive or where ever. what lacks in the equation is that 78% of the worlds population don't have and will never have access to virtual bits and/or thumbdrives and if they had they wouldn't trust bitcoins but prefer tangible fiat money in their pockets. the latter is not limited to those without virtual access to "bits". even the lion share of those who are used to buy and pay virtually using online services will never participate in a scheme that can't be controlled by conventional means such as a court of law if and when fraudulent procedures surface. and nobody can convince me that fraud is not possible.

moreover, when i hear "maximum 21mm" i feel like "Enterprise! one to beam up. too many virtual tulip speculators down here."

I'll bite.

I'm not sure where you got your 78 percent number? Does that mean only 22 percent of the world have access to the internet and/or have smart phones? Bitcoins can be sent to where ever there is a thing called the internet. Mobile apps will be incoming shortly.

You're right of course that it is going to take sometime for people to trust it. I mean how many years before people started using paypal even with the crappy fees they charge? People have to realize the advantages first and slowly switch to the new concept. I never thought this was going to be easy or the fact it would completely replace fiat currency.

Of course I don't expect someone who has never touched a computer to start using things like thumbdrives and virtual currency. Its the same reason why my stepdad will never use email or use a smart phone or an mp3 player. I don't expect these people to pick up "virtual currency" either. For them there is fiat currency which they grew up with and feel comfortable with. Virtual currency is not for those who prefer to dig their backyard and bury paper money instead of using encrypted drives. The new system is not for people like that. Its for the younger, savvy, perhaps more optimistic crowd. What I do know for a fact is that time passes and these people who can't use anything but old cassette tapes or VHS will be replaced by younger people. By then, hopefully and optimistically, the stranglehold of fiat currency will be loosen. I can only dream right?

As for the maximum 21 million which you mentioned, the first 20 million will be all mined around 2030 so this is going to be a long speculation. From here the miners will be appeased by transactions cost. The network itself adjust the difficulty so when more miners get in, the difficulty is increased or vice versa. The actual 21 million will be mined by 2140. I do hope in 100+ years we'll have a better system then what we have now

"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers,"

Thomas John Watson, Sr. (February 17, 1874 – June 19, 1956) president of International Business Machines (IBM)

[Darvil]

No-one has yet answered my question. Can I use bitcoins to buy my breakfast?

Let me answer your question with another question. Suppose you went to a noodle shop in Prakanong. Would you try to pay the seller with a euro or a dollar? Or would you use baht instead?

Why do you assume bitcoin would work everywhere instantly? Who is claiming this? You can of course trade it for fiat Although I think some stores in NY or San Fran are taking bitcoin. I don't expect to see your noodle shop seller using bitcoins anytime soon.

Currently bitcoins is mainly web focused, IE online stores. There are services you can use to buy goods from sites like amazon. Some people have already created bills but I don't think the implementation is perfect yet. There are alot of poeple coming up with different innovations. We will see how this all pans out.

[Naam]

I'm not sure where you got your 78 percent number? Does that mean only 22 percent of the world have access to the internet and/or have smart phones? Bitcoins can be sent to where ever there is a thing called the internet. Mobile apps will be incoming shortly.

let us be realistic. some of the people below represent the 78% mentioned. a fact is that the afore-mentioned percentage is increasing. some of them might own already or will own a mobile phone. but for generations to come not use mobile applications to handle bitcoins.

[Naam]

As for the maximum 21 million which you mentioned, the first 20 million will be all mined around 2030 so this is going to be a long speculation. From here the miners will be appeased by transactions cost. The network itself adjust the difficulty so when more miners get in, the difficulty is increased or vice versa. The actual 21 million will be mined by 2140. I do hope in 100+ years we'll have a better system then what we have now

then i suggest we meet in 2031 and 2112, sample a good bottle of wine and check the mining situation. agreed?

[RedFxTrade]

Bitcoin: With Enemies Like Schumer, Who Needs Friends?

Saw this on my twitter feed this morning...might be of interest to some of you. I admit I have not looked into Bitcoins, so cannot comment. However, what I would say, it is not up to any of you to decide if it will become a medium of exchange or whether it can or will not become a medium of exchange. The market will decide. We can theorise all day about it, but It all depends on demand, and acceptance. If that happens at any level,If a group start accepting it as a medium of exchange then it is money in some form, period. How widely used it becomes and to what value it has all depends on the aggregate demand from individuals.

Anyway, the guy Schumer in the linked article is the anti-thesis of what I think a human living in the practical world should be...interesting article.

[Naam]

However, what I would say, it is not up to any of you to decide if it will become a medium of exchange or whether it can or will not become a medium of exchange.

we insist on it!

[Darvil]

As for the maximum 21 million which you mentioned, the first 20 million will be all mined around 2030 so this is going to be a long speculation. From here the miners will be appeased by transactions cost. The network itself adjust the difficulty so when more miners get in, the difficulty is increased or vice versa. The actual 21 million will be mined by 2140. I do hope in 100+ years we'll have a better system then what we have now

then i suggest we meet in 2031 and 2112, sample a good bottle of wine and check the mining situation. agreed?

Sure thing Naam,

I'll buy you a beer if bitcoin and its successors have failed to make some headway by 2030 Hopefully using bitcoins

Edited June 7, 2011 by Darvil

[RedFxTrade]

However, what I would say, it is not up to any of you to decide if it will become a medium of exchange or whether it can or will not become a medium of exchange.

we insist on it!

Haha, what an irony that would be...the bitcoinists lobbying big business and government to make BC legal tender...

[Darvil]

Bitcoin: With Enemies Like Schumer, Who Needs Friends?

Saw this on my twitter feed this morning...might be of interest to some of you. I admit I have not looked into Bitcoins, so cannot comment. However, what I would say, it is not up to any of you to decide if it will become a medium of exchange or whether it can or will not become a medium of exchange. The market will decide. We can theorise all day about it, but It all depends on demand, and acceptance. If that happens at any level,If a group start accepting it as a medium of exchange then it is money in some form, period. How widely used it becomes and to what value it has all depends on the aggregate demand from individuals.

Anyway, the guy Schumer in the linked article is the anti-thesis of what I think a human living in the practical world should be...interesting article.

Thanks for that link,

Schumer is an old fart. Does he even know what email is? Everytime I see him talk on one of those political shows, I grit my teeth.

[RedFxTrade]

Bitcoin: With Enemies Like Schumer, Who Needs Friends?

Saw this on my twitter feed this morning...might be of interest to some of you. I admit I have not looked into Bitcoins, so cannot comment. However, what I would say, it is not up to any of you to decide if it will become a medium of exchange or whether it can or will not become a medium of exchange. The market will decide. We can theorise all day about it, but It all depends on demand, and acceptance. If that happens at any level,If a group start accepting it as a medium of exchange then it is money in some form, period. How widely used it becomes and to what value it has all depends on the aggregate demand from individuals.

Anyway, the guy Schumer in the linked article is the anti-thesis of what I think a human living in the practical world should be...interesting article.

Thanks for that link,

Schumer is an old fart. Does he even know what email is? Everytime I see him talk on one of those political shows, I grit my teeth.

I agree and unfortunately there are becoming far too many old farts, in the US, UK, EU...and the (politcial) room is becoming pretty stinking with them.

[Naam]

As for the maximum 21 million which you mentioned, the first 20 million will be all mined around 2030 so this is going to be a long speculation. From here the miners will be appeased by transactions cost. The network itself adjust the difficulty so when more miners get in, the difficulty is increased or vice versa. The actual 21 million will be mined by 2140. I do hope in 100+ years we'll have a better system then what we have now

then i suggest we meet in 2031 and 2112, sample a good bottle of wine and check the mining situation. agreed?

Sure thing Naam,

I'll buy you a beer if bitcoin and its successors have failed to make some headway by 2030 Hopefully using bitcoins

what about a lady drink for that big-boobed nurse who will be pushing my wheelchair Darvil? surely you will act like a true gentleman?

[Naam]

Schumer is an old fart.

now i'm really pissed off. no bitcoins ever. only over my dead body!

[Darvil]

As for the maximum 21 million which you mentioned, the first 20 million will be all mined around 2030 so this is going to be a long speculation. From here the miners will be appeased by transactions cost. The network itself adjust the difficulty so when more miners get in, the difficulty is increased or vice versa. The actual 21 million will be mined by 2140. I do hope in 100+ years we'll have a better system then what we have now

then i suggest we meet in 2031 and 2112, sample a good bottle of wine and check the mining situation. agreed?

Sure thing Naam,

I'll buy you a beer if bitcoin and its successors have failed to make some headway by 2030 Hopefully using bitcoins

what about a lady drink for that big-boobed nurse who will be pushing my wheelchair Darvil? surely you will act like a true gentleman?

If you can afford the only big-boobed lady nurse in Thailand to push you around, I'm going to toast a drink to you. I'll make sure she takes you safely back to your mansion before I invite her for a drink

[Jdietz]

A scam...

Bitcoin is a ludicrously bad idea. It is a scam. A Scam. It is not a currency. The economic assumptions underpinning the Bitcoin ecosystem are laughable, and ignore hundreds of years of accumulated understanding of how currencies work with each other.

Full article here: http://www.quora.com/Bitcoin/Is-the-cryptocurrency-Bitcoin-a-good-idea

[monekyface]

so, this incredibly long history of understanding currencies has given us the Fed and ECB? thanks, i'll pass...

Cohen seems very emotionally invested in his argument. central bankers have done a wonderful job bankrupting countries then rushing in on their white horse to save them (and making more money than God in the process), perhaps he is so angry because he sees himself among this elite band of saviors. he is clearly perturbed that early adopters are making money in bitcoin- while also saying that it has to crash because there is no white knight.

paternalism. most of the world has had their fill of saviors. thanks for pulling us out of the mud, brother- but did you need to reach into our pockets to do it?

Edited June 7, 2011 by monekyface

[Darvil]

I'm not sure where you got your 78 percent number? Does that mean only 22 percent of the world have access to the internet and/or have smart phones? Bitcoins can be sent to where ever there is a thing called the internet. Mobile apps will be incoming shortly.

let us be realistic. some of the people below represent the 78% mentioned. a fact is that the afore-mentioned percentage is increasing. some of them might own already or will own a mobile phone. but for generations to come not use mobile applications to handle bitcoins.

Naam,

Just so you know, I was born in Burma. Even though it was in a middle class family (back when a shack with a hole for a bathroom was considered middle class), I was well aware of poverty around the area. I did of course lucked out and got a capable mother who moved me to Thailand and eventually to the US. I count my blessings often.

Now when Burma was hit by Nargis, I had the opportunity to help out which I did becoming a translator for some of the foreign NGOs there. Now being there as an adult I saw and felt alot more things that I could ever remember as a young child. I was even offered a job there but I decided to finish my schooling first and see what happens. When I got back to the US, I realize that the war against entrenched institutions can be waged a few ways. Being someone who makes his living/hobby online I realize the importance of the digital front for this war. I've even managed to convince my work to allow me to be in Asia part of the year (starting this year). Being physically located in Thailand (my 2nd home), I maybe able to do more good. Of course, you're not going to see me anytime soon on TV starting a revolution in Burma (although I dream of attending ASSK rallies/speeches). To me the penetration of the internet and its power to level the playing field is just as important as any struggle. Since my talent is more in the digital realm thats where I will be battling.

Maybe I'm too overly optimistic and idealistic, but after seeing how softwares such as linux and the internet itself brought stunning changes to the physical world, I think I have the right to be a bit more optimistic for the future.

Edited June 7, 2011 by Darvil

[Darvil]

bitcoin now crossed over 200 million.

Here is a very cool CBS news on bitcoin. I wish it was a bit longer but its giving more traction to the movement for sure.

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7368784n&tag=mncol%3Blst%3B2

[monekyface]

DDoS on bitcoin.org today???

[monekyface]

17 bucks right now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Darrel]

Just another Ponzi scheme, but with a side-order of money-laundering thrown in.

I'll stick to tulips, thanks.

[Naam]

But as bad a day as Friday was for NYSE traders, it was far worse for those who invested in an increasingly popular digital currency -- Bitcoins (BTC). At the opening bell at Mt. Gox, the world's largest Bitcoin exchange, a single BTC cost $28.919 USD. By mid-day that total had plunged to $20.01 USD -- a drop of 30.8 percent.

http://www.dailytech.com/Digital+Black+Friday+First+Bitcoin+Depression+Hits/article21877.htm

hmmmm...

[cloudhopper]

<deleted> the modern digital currency can't be used on weekends?

At least paper works 24/7... providing you have some.

[Darvil]

Thats one of the weakness of bitcoin right now. Only one major public exchange and when it goes down its not good. There is a competitor right now but its still small although looking pretty good.

Of course you can always trade in IRC and that sort of thing but thats not easy for the average person to get into and more of a geeks marketplace.

[Naam]

the real weakness of bitcoins and similar schemes is that their chance to survive is equivalent to a snowball in hell. for a decade the "powers" have woven a net, who's loops are getting tighter by any day that passes, to eradicate/prevent anomymous financial transfers, bank accounts, holdings, etc.; all under the umbrella "terrorist activities, money laundering, drug trade" and last not least "taxes".

it would be utmost naive to assume that any of these schemes will have success, notwithstanding the fact that other schemes like "hawala" still exist but have been reduced considerably.

moreover, bitcoins et al are much more "fiat" than any "fiat" presently existing and the attribute or comparison with "tulip" another tv-member mentioned in this thread does apply.

[RedFxTrade]

I know not much about Bitcoins apart from the basics....anyway, its strange that when I read this thread I start to see articles everywhere on them...The national UK Guardian has a story on it today...one of the largest papers in the UK...a Leftie paper...Bitcoin: the hacker currency that's taking over the web.

Surprised that economy is worth £32 million in bitcoins...thats quite large...thats why the Gov wants a crackdown. Pretty sure they will be unsuccessful. The internet is the 21 st century reformation...

[cloudhopper]

Surprised that economy is worth £32 million in bitcoins...thats quite large...thats why the Gov wants a crackdown. Pretty sure they will be unsuccessful. The internet is the 21 st century reformation...

I wouldn't bet against a successful government crackdown if they decide to but more likely they have already put back door access into this currency so they can see exactly who is trading how much with whom.

[RedFxTrade]

Surprised that economy is worth £32 million in bitcoins...thats quite large...thats why the Gov wants a crackdown. Pretty sure they will be unsuccessful. The internet is the 21 st century reformation...

I wouldn't bet against a successful government crackdown if they decide to but more likely they have already put back door access into this currency so they can see exactly who is trading how much with whom.

No doubt they ll try, and could be successful in this instance. However, if this idea or concept takes off (that is not for me to say, or anyone, but rather the aggregate will of individuals) then there will be many many more like Bitcoin that will pop up. After all they have not been able to stop Wikileaks, and look at the number of websites that are popping up within the new sphere of Journalism 2.0. Opensource, Projectcensored etc etc...Wikileaks might be just like the Napster of its day...Twitter has blown apart High Court Injunction laws in the UK...and even the most brutal of regimes have been unable to stop activists forming through the use of social media and mobile technology. Perhaps they will track down Bitcoin,,,but if its like anything else in life and the internet, for everyone they catch, three more will spring up in its place, if the will and belief of individuals is behind it. Twitter has been pretty mad, you hear news on it sometimes a few hours before it makes the main news channels.

[monekyface]

Politics of a Virtual Currency