Thai Immigration Tightens Requirements For Retirement Visa Extensions

[jfchandler]

Jing, example No. 1.

Today at Chiang Watanna.

Passport/arrival card/copies signed

US Embassy letter of income

Normal downloaded TM7 signed with phone number top page 2 and photo

1,900 baht

Fill out two forms (bio/guarantee and notice loss of reason for extension subject to Thai law)

No questions, one photo taken but no finger prints and finished in about 10 minutes.

[Jingthing]

Here's a DUH idea for Thai immigration.

Too logical?

As you've proposed it, Jing, it strikes me as a kind of dumb idea...

So, you want to exclude from consideration all the other kinds of non-pension income that people receive and use -- interest and dividend earnings....rental property income.... IRA distributions, etc etc...

Those aren't fixed and aren't guaranteed for life...unlike pensions... But they certainly are real and valid income that people can and should be able to use toward meeting the monthly income test in any given year... without having to plunk all the funds down in a useless Thai bank account.

PS- My govt. pension is adjusted for inflation annually, assuming there is a sufficient level of inflation. So in your scenario, I'd still be going back to your "office" to get the new amount certified again and again...

I'd suggest, we stop trying to "fix" the Thai system or in telling them how they can "improve" it... and concentrate on understanding what they're actually doing at present and how people here can best deal with it as it is.

I think you are ignoring a huge problem that may have already existed but now is coming to a head and will more than likely sooner or later result in some drastic action by Thai immigration.

The problem? Face it. The cat is out of the bag. Thailand cannot trust embassy letters from most nations, not only America, etc., and the embassies are starting to realize they don't want or need to take responsibility for Thailand's job, verifying income. I have looked into the retirement visa programs of many nations and I don't recall even one other than Thailand verifying income from embassy letters. These other nations DO IT THEMSELVES! Thailand is probably headed that way too. If so, then how will they do it? I started a conversation about that because it may be coming. A part of my idea rubbed you the wrong way. Sure thing. Trust me, any change coming along and there will be changes, will rub a lot of people the wrong way too.

Or it could be worse.

The worst case scenario for many will be the requirement of importing ALL claimed income into a Thai bank annually, whatever the qualifying method. That is not as remote as some may think and it will be very bad news for many (talking legit people) who have no need to import the full amount every year, not to mention the mechanical issues many will face, depending on exactly how such a rule is written. I think most of us don't want that.

The most common method is for countries to verify pensions and PERMANENT income streams themselves. Most countries will not allow ANY temporary income streams.

Edited June 18, 2011 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Jing, example No. 1.

Today at Chiang Watanna.

Passport/arrival card/copies signed

US Embassy letter of income

Normal downloaded TM7 signed with phone number top page 2 and photo

1,900 baht

Fill out two forms (bio/guarantee and notice loss of reason for extension subject to Thai law)

No questions, one photo taken but no finger prints and finished in about 10 minutes.

Yes, I read that. One report and you are convinced? Amazing. I am sorry but you are BIASED and not being objective about this. You said several. Why not just back off from that obvious exaggeration?

[samran]

Here's a DUH idea for Thai immigration.

Create an office in Thailand where retired expats bring in an official letter of some kind from their government/corporate pension issuing body and have that certified as a guaranteed income for LIFE. Charge some baht for that.

Then enter that home country currency amount into the immigration computer system. It's good for life. Then for annual extensions, the applicant could use that automatic info in the computer to qualify if over the threshold. If not, the applicant could use the combo method and have the remainder in a Thai bank account. Of course exchange rates change so the applicant would need to fund their combo account to the current proper levels.

LATER, if and when the lifetime pension income goes up, the applicant can go to the same THAI office to prove with an official letter his new level of pension, also good for LIFE.

No more embassy letters!

Too logical?

Well, the way you present it, it is arrogant and offensive. So if you presented it that way to a Thai official, I think they'll smile alot at you and the meeting would be over quick smart.

One thing I don't get, why should a country give anyone the automatic right to live there - for life - just cause they have a certain amount of money in the bank? Effective residency for cash. Kinda cheapens things doesn't it?

Edited June 18, 2011 by samran

[Jingthing]

Here's a DUH idea for Thai immigration.

Create an office in Thailand where retired expats bring in an official letter of some kind from their government/corporate pension issuing body and have that certified as a guaranteed income for LIFE. Charge some baht for that.

Then enter that home country currency amount into the immigration computer system. It's good for life. Then for annual extensions, the applicant could use that automatic info in the computer to qualify if over the threshold. If not, the applicant could use the combo method and have the remainder in a Thai bank account. Of course exchange rates change so the applicant would need to fund their combo account to the current proper levels.

LATER, if and when the lifetime pension income goes up, the applicant can go to the same THAI office to prove with an official letter his new level of pension, also good for LIFE.

No more embassy letters!

Too logical?

Well, the way you present it, it is arrogant and offensive. So if you presented it that way to a Thai official, I think they'll smile alot at you and the meeting would be over quick smart.

One thing I don't get, why should a country give anyone the automatic right to live there - for life - just cause they have a certain amount of money in the bank. Cash for residency. Kinda cheapens things doesn't it?

Talking about the content, not the tone, mate.

Are you talking about the bank account method? Annual extensions on that, not lifetime residency.

There is no residency for life on retirement extensions. They are ANNUAL.

The pension method also requires ANNUAL extensions.

There is NO, I mean ZERO path towards Thai residency on ANY retirement method!

My proposal changes NONE of that. I hope you realize that. It is only a way for Thailand to verify permanent income streams for life so that applicants can have that in the record for life when applying for their, wait for it, ANNUAL extensions. Variations of this, proving your permanent income streams ONLY at the BEGINNING of the retirement visa process are COMMON in global retirement visa programs. Such schemes cut the embassies out of the responsibility of verifying their nationals income streams and it sounds rather clear now that the trend is for major embassies to WANT out of this responsibility.

Also note, there actually ARE some countries who trade money in bank for lifetime residency and sometimes PASSPORTS, but I am not proposing Thailand do this. Just so you know, it does occur elsewhere. Also note it is not unusual for countries offering retirement visas some PATH towards residency on that status after some years. I strongly DO favor Thailand do the same. It would be a humane and civilized offering to the elders who really have made Thailand home.

Edited June 18, 2011 by Jingthing

[jfchandler]

Jing, Example No. 2

Third (3rd) Extension of Stay for an Amercan Citizen using Income only method @ Immigration Office in Northern Thailand. Monday, 13 June, 2011.

No Comments or Warning given to have a Thai Bank Account now or in the future.

If have a Bank Statement and Letter from the Bank, or a Letter of Income from Home Country Embassy/Consulate, no additional supporting documents are wanted or required of persons from any Country.

Supervisor said if any changes occur in the future, the Requirements will be in the form of a Police Order and updated on the Immigration Web Site and at ALL Immigration Offices.

[rawhod]

OK...REPORT....REPORT...REPORT

UK Citizen...Chiang Mai Immigration...Friday 10 June 2011

Within last 30 days of Non-Immigrant "O" visa applying for 1 year Retirement extension of stay.

Submitted :-

1. Passport

2. Photo

3. Completed TM7

4. Original Proof of Pension income letter from British Consulate Chiang Mai

5. Photocopy Departure card

7. Photocopy Passport Data Page

8. Photocopy Non-Immigrant "O" visa

9. 1,900 BHT

Received:-

1 Year Extension of stay based on meeting the conditions for retirement in Thailand

Not Required ...

Additional proof of pension income.

Bank statements.

Thai Bank Book

Pension imported into Thailand.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Have there been any actual reports from retirees going to Immigration (for example, in Chiang Mai) since the change was announced, and actually being asked for financial documentation (instead of or in addition to the usual notarized statement from one of the 3 consulates (US/UK/Aussie)? Or are there any reports of people not being asked for it?

Without going back over the last 5 pages of this continuing pointless discussion over some OP's inaccurate title...is this what you mean?

[jfchandler]

Jing, if you'd hold your water a bit, you'd see a second "no change" example from an American was already forthcoming...as posted above.

I don't have anything to prove here... I'm not the one making announcements or warnings of supposed changes... The shoe really is on the other foot. Where's the evidence of any broad policy change on the part of Immigration? There can always be limited or one-off examples. But if there's any trend of change going on, it's not being documented here.

And by the way, since the time of the OP in this thread, there's not been a single post here by any American, Canadian or Aussie talking about being told by Immigration they'd have to show imported income into Thailand.

Yes, I read that. One report and you are convinced? Amazing. I am sorry but you are BIASED and not being objective about this. You said several. Why not just back off from that obvious exaggeration?

Edited June 18, 2011 by jfchandler

[Jingthing]

Jing, Example No. 2

Third (3rd) Extension of Stay for an Amercan Citizen using Income only method @ Immigration Office in Northern Thailand. Monday, 13 June, 2011.

No Comments or Warning given to have a Thai Bank Account now or in the future.

If have a Bank Statement and Letter from the Bank, or a Letter of Income from Home Country Embassy/Consulate, no additional supporting documents are wanted or required of persons from any Country.

Supervisor said if any changes occur in the future, the Requirements will be in the form of a Police Order and updated on the Immigration Web Site and at ALL Immigration Offices.

Not Bangkok. Not several either. Give it up. There is no proof there isn't some truth behind the info in the OP. When I say collect reports, I mean MANY MANY reports over a reasonable period of time. Then you can make conclusions with a good probability of accuracy. If this change is going to happen, it's coming from Bangkok first.

If we get 10 reports from Americans in Bangkok over the next weeks saying, no proof demanded, and no warnings for next year (as were reported on the other thread in March) I would definitely conclude this is NOT happening ... now. Until then, given both the OP and ESPECIALLY the reports in March, I don't see the logic in jumping to any conclusion.

Edited June 18, 2011 by Jingthing

[moe666]

This thread has caused more confusion than clarity. So we get 10 reports that all is well and Jing goes to immigration and they ask for proof of imported income. dam_n what a bummer.

As we all know immigration can and have asked for more info over the years 10 reports mean nothing except for those people.

Remember the people in the states a few weeks ago who where to be taken up in a raputure. Well they are saying it actually happened but just a spiritual one . But the world will come to an end in Oct. per there leader.

So the story and the facts are subject to change.

[Jingthing]

This thread has caused more confusion than clarity. So we get 10 reports that all is well and Jing goes to immigration and they ask for proof of imported income. dam_n what a bummer.

As we all know immigration can and have asked for more info over the years 10 reports mean nothing except for those people.

Remember the people in the states a few weeks ago who where to be taken up in a raputure. Well they are saying it actually happened but just a spiritual one . But the world will come to an end in Oct. per there leader.

So the story and the facts are subject to change.

Yes I get your point. Immigration can and sometimes does ask for extra proof and has every right to do so. The red flag posts for me were back in March when there were credible reports of Americans being explicitly warned about this change and that in future all Americans would require proof. The import part? I don't recall even one report proving that is happening yet, or even being warned about. Yes, things can change on a dime here, no doubt.

Of course this thread has caused confusion. I predicted before the fallout from this thread will probably last for years. What's the point? Thai immigration has a long history of this kind of thing, ambiguous changes, happening in only one or a few offices, people not really being sure what they need in any given year, regardless of the "official" published rules.

If you read the thread, earlier I did strongly ask the Thai person quoted in the OP to clarify his information. He did. With a massively vague noncommittal reply just causing more uncertainty.

If you demand black and white certainty about matters like this, I guess you moved to the wrong country.

Edited June 18, 2011 by Jingthing

[Lancelot]

The first time I applied for the infamous "Verification of Income" from the US Embassy in Bangkok, I went loaded for bear, meaning copies of bank & brokerage statements, etc. When I presented them to the American embassy officer he gave me the "Whats all this for" look. I recoverd, smilled sheepishly, collected my letter and boogied on down to Immigration.

After submitting my documents and application forms, I was directed to a final review by an Immigration supervisor. I asked if I could keep the original Verification of Income letter and she replied "Can not, money you government..."

We shared a chuckle then I treated myself to a beer at a near by restaurant. As I reflected on the retirement extension of stay process: The US Embassy collects an easy $50 USD; Thai Immigration gets a C.Y.A. document (Cover your ass) and I can stay in country for one more year.

Ain't life great

Edited June 18, 2011 by Lancelot

[jfchandler]

Jing, Lopburi's post above, re no change, was from Chaeng Wattana in Bangkok...

Thus far, the available evidence in terms of clear direct reports is weighing toward no visible change on the part of Immigration.

If/when actual first-person, current reports start surfacing here to the contrary, then I'll be the first to acknowledge those.

But thus far, it's all the concocted scheme of an OP that's never been substantiated and the author of which seems to be MIA re their claims.

Edited June 18, 2011 by jfchandler

[lovelomsak]

I have had 800,000 sitting in the bank for 5 years here now. At best it would draw me $1250 a year interest before taxes. After tax who know maybe $1000, That is about 30000 baht. I donot get any interest at my bank because the banker says foreigners donot get interest.

I live out of Bkk so to get an Embassy letter for my pensions I have to travel to Bkk ,get a hotel,pay the embassy for a letter at my costs. This is usually a few thousand baht uasually over 10,000 baht to get it finished and be home.

So I feel what i lose in interest with just using a bank letter I save in a trip to Bkk and inconvience. I look at the 800,000 as the door fee, for entry.

[Jingthing]

Jing, Lopburi's post above, re no change, was from Chaeng Wattana in Bangkok...

Thus far, the available evidence in terms of clear direct reports is weighing toward no visible change on the part of Immigration.

If/when actual first-person, current reports start surfacing here to the contrary, then I'll be the first to acknowledge those.

But thus far, it's all the concocted scheme of an OP that's never been substantiated and the author of which seems to be MIA re their claims.

Agreed with all that but I would like to see a greater number of current MOST RELEVANT reports (Americans in Bangkok) before the credible reports of proof demands/WARNINGS from the thread in March become totally irrelevant. Definitely agree about the OP though in my mind the actual REPORTS in March were always of more interest than that.

That said, I seriously doubt the now open issue of the problems with MANY embassies actually proving income streams is going to really go away. I expect some kind of global policy change on that in future. Could be next week or five years from now. Stay tuned. It really is weird that Thailand relies on FOREIGN embassies for this proof and yes I know Thailand is weird but don't bank on them to stay weird on that mechanical issue forever, now that the cat is out of the bag.

Edited June 18, 2011 by Jingthing

[jfchandler]

If something broad was ensuing from the March reports, don't you think there'd have been enough time by now for substantive, recurring reports of that to have surfaced here. It hasn't happened.

[Jingthing]

If something broad was ensuing from the March reports, don't you think there'd have been enough time by now for substantive, recurring reports of that to have surfaced here. It hasn't happened.

Fair enough. Right now based on a very small number of relevant reports (one American in Bangkok), it doesn't appear to be happening ... I'll give you that. However, I don't think this is over and history has shown when Thai immigration discovers that some applicants are scamming them, they usually find a way to react overreact to that with policy changes, eventually.

Edited June 18, 2011 by Jingthing

[moe666]

This thread has caused more confusion than clarity. So we get 10 reports that all is well and Jing goes to immigration and they ask for proof of imported income. dam_n what a bummer.

As we all know immigration can and have asked for more info over the years 10 reports mean nothing except for those people.

Remember the people in the states a few weeks ago who where to be taken up in a raputure. Well they are saying it actually happened but just a spiritual one . But the world will come to an end in Oct. per there leader.

So the story and the facts are subject to change.

Yes I get your point. Immigration can and sometimes does ask for extra proof and has every right to do so. The red flag posts for me were back in March when there were credible reports of Americans being explicitly warned about this change and that in future all Americans would require proof. The import part? I don't recall even one report proving that is happening yet, or even being warned about. Yes, things can change on a dime here, no doubt.

Of course this thread has caused confusion. I predicted before the fallout from this thread will probably last for years. What's the point? Thai immigration has a long history of this kind of thing, ambiguous changes, happening in only one or a few offices, people not really being sure what they need in any given year, regardless of the "official" published rules.

If you read the thread, earlier I did strongly ask the Thai person quoted in the OP to clarify his information. He did. With a massively vague noncommittal reply just causing more uncertainty.

If you demand black and white certainty about matters like this, I guess you moved to the wrong country.

I donot think you understand my post, If I remember you are the one demanding multiply reports from immigration to prove there is no change what at least 10 will put this to rest.

[rgs2001uk]

I have had 800,000 sitting in the bank for 5 years here now. At best it would draw me $1250 a year interest before taxes. After tax who know maybe $1000, That is about 30000 baht. I donot get any interest at my bank because the banker says foreigners donot get interest.

I live out of Bkk so to get an Embassy letter for my pensions I have to travel to Bkk ,get a hotel,pay the embassy for a letter at my costs. This is usually a few thousand baht uasually over 10,000 baht to get it finished and be home.

So I feel what i lose in interest with just using a bank letter I save in a trip to Bkk and inconvience. I look at the 800,000 as the door fee, for entry.

"I donot get any interest at my bank because the banker says foreigners donot get interest."

Sounds like the banker is yet another upcountry bumpkin suffering from the face trait.

If I were you I would change banks, my banks pays me as a farang interest.

[jfchandler]

Jing, I agree about Thai Immigration... But let's not put the cart ahead of the horse, so to speak...

If and when any change comes, we'll all start hearing about it here from fellow TV members with real first-person reports.

It's good to be vigilant. But excessive alarmism isn't helpful either.

Edited June 18, 2011 by jfchandler

[moe666]

I have had 800,000 sitting in the bank for 5 years here now. At best it would draw me $1250 a year interest before taxes. After tax who know maybe $1000, That is about 30000 baht. I donot get any interest at my bank because the banker says foreigners donot get interest.

I live out of Bkk so to get an Embassy letter for my pensions I have to travel to Bkk ,get a hotel,pay the embassy for a letter at my costs. This is usually a few thousand baht uasually over 10,000 baht to get it finished and be home.

So I feel what i lose in interest with just using a bank letter I save in a trip to Bkk and inconvience. I look at the 800,000 as the door fee, for entry.

Why do you get a letter from Embassy isn't only for the monthly income method.

[Jingthing]

I donot think you understand my post, If I remember you are the one demanding multiply reports from immigration to prove there is no change what at least 10 will put this to rest.

I understood your post. You're right, 1000 reports don't provide final proof of anything that's going to happen tomorrow. But multiple reports give a good picture of CURRENT policies. Again, you are right, immigration has always asked SOME applicants for additional proof, and that has nothing to do with an enforcement policy change as they have always had that right. The previous reports that made me feel this might actually be a policy change are the reports of WARNINGS to American applicants about a new policy to be enforced their next visit.

Edited June 18, 2011 by Jingthing

[lopburi3]

Why do you get a letter from Embassy isn't only for the monthly income method.

He said he does not have to get an Embassy letter. Although am not sure why it would cost 10,000 baht unless he was planning a long night of celebration.

[Jingthing]

Jing, I agree about Thai Immigration... But let's not put the cart ahead of the horse, so to speak...

If and when any change comes, we'll all start hearing about it here from fellow TV members with real first-person reports.

It's good to be vigilant. But excessive alarmism isn't helpful either.

Fair enough. But frankly I think people should be aware of their longer term vulnerabilities here and perhaps not commit too much to Thailand as Thailand has no commitment to you. For example, buying real estate here. This point is against my self interest as I DO own real estate here.

Edited June 18, 2011 by Jingthing

[moe666]

Missed tha,t my bad

[samran]

Jing, Lopburi's post above, re no change, was from Chaeng Wattana in Bangkok...

Thus far, the available evidence in terms of clear direct reports is weighing toward no visible change on the part of Immigration.

If/when actual first-person, current reports start surfacing here to the contrary, then I'll be the first to acknowledge those.

But thus far, it's all the concocted scheme of an OP that's never been substantiated and the author of which seems to be MIA re their claims.

Agreed with all that but I would like to see a greater number of current MOST RELEVANT reports (Americans in Bangkok) before the credible reports of proof demands/WARNINGS from the thread in March become totally irrelevant. Definitely agree about the OP though in my mind the actual REPORTS in March were always of more interest than that.

That said, I seriously doubt the now open issue of the problems with MANY embassies actually proving income streams is going to really go away. I expect some kind of global policy change on that in future. Could be next week or five years from now. Stay tuned. It really is weird that Thailand relies on FOREIGN embassies for this proof and yes I know Thailand is weird but don't bank on them to stay weird on that mechanical issue forever, now that the cat is out of the bag.

I say this only half jokingly, why don't you run a poll?

[Jingthing]

I say this only half jokingly, why don't you run a poll?

Asking what? We don't make immigration policies or vote on them. Not saying we should. We just have to deal with them. Not whining, just keeping it real.

Also, for some questions, our self interest is obvious and no poll is needed. For example, I would bet the house most retired expats would be in a favor of an option of a path to perm resident status after years on retirement extensions. As it is now an expat can be here for 30 years and have no more status than a first year applicant. On the face of it, that really isn't fair, but that's the way it is.

Edited June 18, 2011 by Jingthing

[samran]

I say this only half jokingly, why don't you run a poll?

Asking what? We don't make immigration policies or vote on them. Not saying we should. We just have to deal with them. Not whining, just keeping it real.

Also, for some questions, our self interest is obvious and no poll is needed. For example, I would bet the house most retired expats would be in a favor of an option of a path to perm resident status after years on retirement extensions. As it is now an expat can be here for 30 years and have no more status than a first year applicant. On the face of it, that really isn't fair, but that's the way it is.

I wasnt' talking about a 'tell us what you'd like out of Thai immigration visa'

I'm talking about 'tell us your experience' poll.

When I went for my retirement visa exension in the past month.

- X happened

- X + Y happened

- Y + Z happened

- they asked for 3 generations of family history and the bank account of my great great grandfather.

ie any permuation of what has been claimed/speculated on in this thread.

[Jingthing]

I say this only half jokingly, why don't you run a poll?

Asking what? We don't make immigration policies or vote on them. Not saying we should. We just have to deal with them. Not whining, just keeping it real.

Also, for some questions, our self interest is obvious and no poll is needed. For example, I would bet the house most retired expats would be in a favor of an option of a path to perm resident status after years on retirement extensions. As it is now an expat can be here for 30 years and have no more status than a first year applicant. On the face of it, that really isn't fair, but that's the way it is.

I wasnt' talking about a 'tell us what you'd like out of Thai immigration visa'

I'm talking about 'tell us your experience' poll.

When I went for my retirement visa exension in the past month.

- X happened

- X + Y happened

- Y + Z happened

- they asked for 3 generations of family history and the bank account of my great great grandfather.

ie any permuation of what has been claimed/speculated on in this thread.

I think you don't understood too well the dynamics here. We go in for ANNUAL extensions. Only a limited number of people's reports are relevant to the current issue, mostly Americans in Bangkok. So a poll would be absurd on this issue.

[SurfRider]

.

"why don't you run a poll? ... I'm talking about 'tell us your experience' poll"

The poll has already been taken.

No reports in over 750 posts that anything has changed at any immigration office. The Embassy letter is still accepted as validation of income and there has been no report of anyone required to import funds into Thailand to qualify for a retirement extension. Precisely as JFChandler has stated over and over.

Sorry to have to mention this for a third time in this thread, but the former British Consul who works daily at Pattaya Immigration assisting Farangs with various immigration issues --and has direct access to all of the top immigration officials-- has stated that there are NO CHANGES in the requirements or procedures for retirement renewals at Chonburi/Pattaya immigration.

The Pattaya City Expats Club-- which has access to many retired Expats on a daily basis, and regularly updates its database, has heard of no changes in retirement extension procedures and has posted such to their website and reported same in their newsletter.

It might be nearing the time to stop kicking a dead horse . . .

.