Thaksin Amnesty 'Not Top Priority'

[hanuman1]

gotta love how arduously the forum red shirt leaning members tend to stay away from threads like this

There goes the bait. Lets sit and watch to see what bites. Pass the sandwiches....

[whybother]

You have posted this on two threads. I think that the quotations are quite apposite and am pleased that you appear to believe as I do, that irrespective of the result Thailand will still be ruled by a self-seeking and self perpetuating plutocracy, from whichever camp. But I cannot be sure that is what you meant.

More than two threads.

Ignore is a good feature. I think it's time I used it.

[jdinasia]

You have posted this on two threads. I think that the quotations are quite apposite and am pleased that you appear to believe as I do, that irrespective of the result Thailand will still be ruled by a self-seeking and self perpetuating plutocracy, from whichever camp. But I cannot be sure that is what you meant.

More than two threads.

Ignore is a good feature. I think it's time I used it.

Wise advice --- done.

[AleG]

Frankly I wonder if this amnesty business is a red herring. If I was Thaksin I would be more interested in recovering my money than any amnesty. But then I don't think like a Thai.

Ahh!, there you make the fatal mistake about Thaksin. It's not about money, he already has more than he could ever use and he is still making millions month after month.

It's not about money, it's about power. He want's to rule, absolute rule if past and present behavior give any hints.

with respect, I think your age is showing, Thailand is a small country from a global perspective, Power in Thailand has limited value. Money on the other hand is power, power anywhere in the world. Does Bill Gates need a squadron of bodyguards everywhere he goes, yet he has more global power than many a King or ruler. Money is power.

Money is power, generally; absolutely, I'm not arguing against that. But does Thaksins current (obscene) fortune allows him to return to Thailand and take the reigns? No, it doesn't, there's a sentence and several other solid cases against him that may land him behind bars for some time.

He needs first to establish his power over the country's institutions (via a proxy) to coax them into a pardon or amnesty for himself, then he can come back and exercise his rule.

In any case I'd say that in the case of Thaksin first there was power (from the wife's family and other connections) and that led to him making his ill gotten fortune. Without some powerful patrons and favors he would had never made his billions.

I'm also puzzled about the age thing, pray tell what age am I showing by my comments? (I may get a good chuckle out of this)

[anterian]

Frankly I wonder if this amnesty business is a red herring. If I was Thaksin I would be more interested in recovering my money than any amnesty. But then I don't think like a Thai.

Ahh!, there you make the fatal mistake about Thaksin. It's not about money, he already has more than he could ever use and he is still making millions month after month.

It's not about money, it's about power. He want's to rule, absolute rule if past and present behavior give any hints.

with respect, I think your age is showing, Thailand is a small country from a global perspective, Power in Thailand has limited value. Money on the other hand is power, power anywhere in the world. Does Bill Gates need a squadron of bodyguards everywhere he goes, yet he has more global power than many a King or ruler. Money is power.

Money is power, generally; absolutely, I'm not arguing against that. But does Thaksins current (obscene) fortune allows him to return to Thailand and take the reigns? No, it doesn't, there's a sentence and several other solid cases against him that may land him behind bars for some time.

He needs first to establish his power over the country's institutions (via a proxy) to coax them into a pardon or amnesty for himself, then he can come back and exercise his rule.

In any case I'd say that in the case of Thaksin first there was power (from the wife's family and other connections) and that led to him making his ill gotten fortune. Without some powerful patrons and favors he would had never made his billions.

I'm also puzzled about the age thing, pray tell what age am I showing by my comments? (I may get a good chuckle out of this)

Yes the comment about age was not explained, my apology. My inbox was being inundated at the time with messages from TV that Tom, Dick and Harry were all replying to my comments.

It is simply this, when I was a young man at around your age, I lusted for power, I was going to rock the world Well in my very small field I did achieve a level of power, but with it came one hell of a lot of stress. Now I'm an old man, I don't want power I just to be left alone in peace. But I'd love to have lots of money, it would make my remaining years much more fun.

I may be wrong but I have detected signs that Thaksin is mellowing out, sure he is Thai and face is important to a Thai, but in the wider world where he now exists face has little importance, money is everything. I think his peripatetic lifestyle in the last few years has changed much of his thinking, plus his brief brush with mortality a few years back.

My comment was not intended as an insult or put down, rather an indication of how priorities change as we get older.

[whybother]

...

I may be wrong but I have detected signs that Thaksin is mellowing out, sure he is Thai and face is important to a Thai, but in the wider world where he now exists face has little importance, money is everything. I think his peripatetic lifestyle in the last few years has changed much of his thinking, plus his brief brush with mortality a few years back.

My comment was not intended as an insult or put down, rather an indication of how priorities change as we get older.

Mellowing? That's why he put his sister in the hot seat, and is taking phone calls every 5 minutes to give advice.

[jdinasia]

...

I may be wrong but I have detected signs that Thaksin is mellowing out, sure he is Thai and face is important to a Thai, but in the wider world where he now exists face has little importance, money is everything. I think his peripatetic lifestyle in the last few years has changed much of his thinking, plus his brief brush with mortality a few years back.

My comment was not intended as an insult or put down, rather an indication of how priorities change as we get older.

Mellowing? That's why he put his sister in the hot seat, and is taking phone calls every 5 minutes to give advice.

Not to mention putting the reds into party-list positions ... funding terroristic acts etc ... oi vey! If That is mellowing I would hate to see him get obsessed with getting power back!

[ginjag]

...

I may be wrong but I have detected signs that Thaksin is mellowing out, sure he is Thai and face is important to a Thai, but in the wider world where he now exists face has little importance, money is everything. I think his peripatetic lifestyle in the last few years has changed much of his thinking, plus his brief brush with mortality a few years back.

My comment was not intended as an insult or put down, rather an indication of how priorities change as we get older.

Mellowing? That's why he put his sister in the hot seat, and is taking phone calls every 5 minutes to give advice.

Leopards seldom lose their spots, I agree normally we do mellow as we get older, This guy is not the sort of guy to do that in my mind or he would not be antagonizing and stirring up problems in his beloved Thailand, as he did state he had finished with politics. The odds are No 1...Power No 2 money.

[yoshiwara]

The problem for Yingluck is that her brother has already labelled her merely a 'clone', so any replies she gives to questions such as these hoping to appear as a thoughtful individual, make her look stupid, manipulated and dishonest.

[lannarebirth]

...

I may be wrong but I have detected signs that Thaksin is mellowing out, sure he is Thai and face is important to a Thai, but in the wider world where he now exists face has little importance, money is everything. I think his peripatetic lifestyle in the last few years has changed much of his thinking, plus his brief brush with mortality a few years back.

My comment was not intended as an insult or put down, rather an indication of how priorities change as we get older.

Mellowing? That's why he put his sister in the hot seat, and is taking phone calls every 5 minutes to give advice.

Not to mention putting the reds into party-list positions ... funding terroristic acts etc ... oi vey! If That is mellowing I would hate to see him get obsessed with getting power back!

"I will be with you when the first shot is fired".

Thaksins final broadcast comment prior to mobilizing the Red Shirts to last years Bangkok rally. Not only not mellow but a liar and a coward as well.

[whybother]

The problem for Yingluck is that her brother has already labelled her merely a 'clone', so any replies she gives to questions such as these hoping to appear as a thoughtful individual, make her look stupid, manipulated and dishonest.

She doesn't need her replies for that.

But she can't be all three.

She's either stupid for allowing herself to be manipulated, or she's not being manipulated and just being dishonest.

[anterian]

...

I may be wrong but I have detected signs that Thaksin is mellowing out, sure he is Thai and face is important to a Thai, but in the wider world where he now exists face has little importance, money is everything. I think his peripatetic lifestyle in the last few years has changed much of his thinking, plus his brief brush with mortality a few years back.

My comment was not intended as an insult or put down, rather an indication of how priorities change as we get older.

Mellowing? That's why he put his sister in the hot seat, and is taking phone calls every 5 minutes to give advice.

" taking phone calls every 5 minutes to give advice." really, or is this just poetic licence?

[whybother]

...

I may be wrong but I have detected signs that Thaksin is mellowing out, sure he is Thai and face is important to a Thai, but in the wider world where he now exists face has little importance, money is everything. I think his peripatetic lifestyle in the last few years has changed much of his thinking, plus his brief brush with mortality a few years back.

My comment was not intended as an insult or put down, rather an indication of how priorities change as we get older.

Mellowing? That's why he put his sister in the hot seat, and is taking phone calls every 5 minutes to give advice.

" taking phone calls every 5 minutes to give advice." really, or is this just poetic licence?

The same sort of poetic licence as "mellowing".

[anterian]

...

I may be wrong but I have detected signs that Thaksin is mellowing out, sure he is Thai and face is important to a Thai, but in the wider world where he now exists face has little importance, money is everything. I think his peripatetic lifestyle in the last few years has changed much of his thinking, plus his brief brush with mortality a few years back.

My comment was not intended as an insult or put down, rather an indication of how priorities change as we get older.

Mellowing? That's why he put his sister in the hot seat, and is taking phone calls every 5 minutes to give advice.

" taking phone calls every 5 minutes to give advice." really, or is this just poetic licence?

The same sort of poetic licence as "mellowing".

Oh dear now we are at the school boy level of debate, I'm going to bed, no doubt I will read your retort in the morning :jap:

goodnight

[letitbe]

Frankly I wonder if this amnesty business is a red herring. If I was Thaksin I would be more interested in recovering my money than any amnesty. But then I don't think like a Thai.

hes only really interested in total 100% power and control of everything Money is just vehicle to bribe buy votes pay gangsters and take everything over then easy to get however much he wants If he was interested only in money and not for power money gives hed have given up long ago. After all he is a multi billionaire in any currency be in US$ swiss francs GBP or whatever. The money confiscated is a very small % of his total probably less than 2-3%. If you had 5,000,000,000 ++ US$ would you care about loosing 2-3%. He is simply a very dangerous thug who wants to totally control Thailand as his own kingdom same as Mugabwie Gaddafi Hitler Saddam Idi Amin and all rest. If people don't see that it will be totally apparent after a few years if he gets back but then it will be to late and he can then only be got rid off via a lot of deaths and bloodshed. Same same Zimbabwie Iraq Hitlers Germany and rest

[anterian]

I have said that I think Thaksin is mellowing, let me expand on this. Firstly I judge by his style, he has two basic images, an internal one for his Thai supporters and an external one for the global public, many members have noted this. If this is duplicity then it is a trait shared by all politicians, Obama, Cameron, Merkel etc please your supporters, say what they want to hear, but be much more diplomatic globally.

I have noticed that these two images are converging as he ages, he still manoeuvres and pontificates to his Thai audience, yet in global interviews he is more conciliatory more adamant in his love of Thailand and respect for its King.

He is not eloquent in English yet I listen to his choice of words, I look at his face, he is a tired old man. I have been there, done that, I can empathise, I used to be the dominant driving force in my family, now I just sit back, relax, let my son do the thinking, planning and organising. My only involvement is to offer advice if asked. I think Thaksin is drifting in the same direction. Yes, he is Thai, so face is important, but I feel that he would rather be a revered senior statesman rather than a leader of the nation. Look at Abhisit since he came to power, look at his face, can you see the strain, has he not visibly aged? Is this not true of most global leaders, they take up office full of vim and energy, then leave a few years later as old men.

But let's assume, that as many of his detractors claim, he seeks to return to power at all costs. Well there is the blatant approach which has been used by several central African banana republics. Hire a large band of mercenaries, train them up with a few ex navy seals and SAS types. Then use them to attack the Thai government forces and at the same time letting his followers flock to his banner. But this would be civil war, other nations might get involved, it could be a Pyrrhic victory.

So a more subtle approach might be to hire a professional team of hitmen, even recruit some suicide bombers, knock out his enemies one by one. Or simply exterminate the grassroots Dem agents and canvassers, let them realise it is life endangering to support the Democrats.

Perhaps another approach would be to use his money to destabilise the Thai economy, just like Soros did to England. Plunge the nation into chaos then step in as the national saviour.

I can think of many more ways Thaksin could regain power if money was all that was needed, but I will not elaborate further in a public forum. The point I am making is that Thaksin has used none of these methods. Some may say that Thaksin tried this with the mysterious "black shirts", I doubt this, his money could have created thousands of such, not just a mere handful, I think they were the independent creation of a now murder red leader.

Anyway, this is my evaluation of Thaksin, I think that in his heart he has had enough, he just maintains an outwardly aggressive stance because he is Thai, and face is important.

I know many of you will disagree, you will dissect my comment and illustrate how wrong I am. Well I'm 75 years old, most mornings I wake up more tired and stiff than when i went to bed , you reach a point where you just can't be bothered anymore, a "go away leave me in peace attitude", Thaksin may not be there yet, but he's getting there, this is what I mean by mellowing.

[whybother]

I have said that I think Thaksin is mellowing, let me expand on this. Firstly I judge by his style, he has two basic images, an internal one for his Thai supporters and an external one for the global public, many members have noted this. If this is duplicity then it is a trait shared by all politicians, Obama, Cameron, Merkel etc please your supporters, say what they want to hear, but be much more diplomatic globally.

I have noticed that these two images are converging as he ages, he still manoeuvres and pontificates to his Thai audience, yet in global interviews he is more conciliatory more adamant in his love of Thailand and respect for its King.

<snip>

Maybe he's just listening to his international PR people.

Have you watched any of his recent Thai speeches? That's not mellow.

[anterian]

I have said that I think Thaksin is mellowing, let me expand on this. Firstly I judge by his style, he has two basic images, an internal one for his Thai supporters and an external one for the global public, many members have noted this. If this is duplicity then it is a trait shared by all politicians, Obama, Cameron, Merkel etc please your supporters, say what they want to hear, but be much more diplomatic globally.

I have noticed that these two images are converging as he ages, he still manoeuvres and pontificates to his Thai audience, yet in global interviews he is more conciliatory more adamant in his love of Thailand and respect for its King.

<snip>

Maybe he's just listening to his international PR people.

Have you watched any of his recent Thai speeches? That's not mellow.

Well if you read all of my comment, I have clearly said that he talks one way for domestic consumption and another way for global audiences. So basically you are agreeing with me. I simply feel that there is more of a convergence between his two styles. You may disagree with my evaluation, call me a fool, as others have implied, but as should be clear from my comments about myself, I don't really care.

[whybother]

I have said that I think Thaksin is mellowing, let me expand on this. Firstly I judge by his style, he has two basic images, an internal one for his Thai supporters and an external one for the global public, many members have noted this. If this is duplicity then it is a trait shared by all politicians, Obama, Cameron, Merkel etc please your supporters, say what they want to hear, but be much more diplomatic globally.

I have noticed that these two images are converging as he ages, he still manoeuvres and pontificates to his Thai audience, yet in global interviews he is more conciliatory more adamant in his love of Thailand and respect for its King.

<snip>

Maybe he's just listening to his international PR people.

Have you watched any of his recent Thai speeches? That's not mellow.

Well if you read all of my comment, I have clearly said that he talks one way for domestic consumption and another way for global audiences. So basically you are agreeing with me. I simply feel that there is more of a convergence between his two styles. You may disagree with my evaluation, call me a fool, as others have implied, but as should be clear from my comments about myself, I don't really care.

I don't agree that he is mellowing.

You can't say that he's mellowing just because he has a couple of calm interviews with foreign journalists. He is just putting on a show for his foreign audience.

His speeches to his Thai audience clearly show he is not mellowing.

[anterian]

I have said that I think Thaksin is mellowing, let me expand on this. Firstly I judge by his style, he has two basic images, an internal one for his Thai supporters and an external one for the global public, many members have noted this. If this is duplicity then it is a trait shared by all politicians, Obama, Cameron, Merkel etc please your supporters, say what they want to hear, but be much more diplomatic globally.

I have noticed that these two images are converging as he ages, he still manoeuvres and pontificates to his Thai audience, yet in global interviews he is more conciliatory more adamant in his love of Thailand and respect for its King.

<snip>

Maybe he's just listening to his international PR people.

Have you watched any of his recent Thai speeches? That's not mellow.

Well if you read all of my comment, I have clearly said that he talks one way for domestic consumption and another way for global audiences. So basically you are agreeing with me. I simply feel that there is more of a convergence between his two styles. You may disagree with my evaluation, call me a fool, as others have implied, but as should be clear from my comments about myself, I don't really care.

I don't agree that he is mellowing.

You can't say that he's mellowing just because he has a couple of calm interviews with foreign journalists. He is just putting on a show for his foreign audience.

His speeches to his Thai audience clearly show he is not mellowing.

Ok, you disagree, why not leave it at that? It seems pointless to just keep banging comments backwards and forwards on a topic we can't agree upon. You simply do not understand my viewpoint, so fair enough, leave it at that. No hard feelings?

[whybother]

Ok, you disagree, why not leave it at that? It seems pointless to just keep banging comments backwards and forwards on a topic we can't agree upon. You simply do not understand my viewpoint, so fair enough, leave it at that. No hard feelings?

Actually, I don't agree with your logic.

You say that "he still manoeuvres and pontificates to his Thai audience" which doesn't fit with your perception that he is mellowing.

[anterian]

Ok, you disagree, why not leave it at that? It seems pointless to just keep banging comments backwards and forwards on a topic we can't agree upon. You simply do not understand my viewpoint, so fair enough, leave it at that. No hard feelings?

Actually, I don't agree with your logic.

You say that "he still manoeuvres and pontificates to his Thai audience" which doesn't fit with your perception that he is mellowing.

You are obviously a person who never knows when to desist but insist upon having the last word

Ok send your reply to this, it will not be answered.

[hanuman1]

Pedantry check - post deleted.

Edited June 8, 2011 by hanuman1

[lannarebirth]

I have said that I think Thaksin is mellowing, let me expand on this. Firstly I judge by his style, he has two basic images, an internal one for his Thai supporters and an external one for the global public, many members have noted this. If this is duplicity then it is a trait shared by all politicians, Obama, Cameron, Merkel etc please your supporters, say what they want to hear, but be much more diplomatic globally.

I have noticed that these two images are converging as he ages, he still manoeuvres and pontificates to his Thai audience, yet in global interviews he is more conciliatory more adamant in his love of Thailand and respect for its King.

<snip>

Maybe he's just listening to his international PR people.

Have you watched any of his recent Thai speeches? That's not mellow.

Well if you read all of my comment, I have clearly said that he talks one way for domestic consumption and another way for global audiences. So basically you are agreeing with me. I simply feel that there is more of a convergence between his two styles. You may disagree with my evaluation, call me a fool, as others have implied, but as should be clear from my comments about myself, I don't really care.

I don't agree that he is mellowing.

You can't say that he's mellowing just because he has a couple of calm interviews with foreign journalists. He is just putting on a show for his foreign audience.

His speeches to his Thai audience clearly show he is not mellowing.

Thaksin has more than one agenda. For foreigners he speaks in a way that establishes his "legitimacy" and thereby have them continue to provide him safe haven passports and keep his considerable wealth in overseas banks from becoming frozen. To his Thai audience we see his true nature (In fact I think he even tempers his true nature for the Thai audience). He couldn't care less what foreigners think of him beyond maintaining his freedom and tremendous assets abroad. You think Hun Sen cares? Or Than Shwe?

Edited June 8, 2011 by lannarebirth

[jdinasia]

But let's assume, that as many of his detractors claim, he seeks to return to power at all costs. Well there is the blatant approach which has been used by several central African banana republics. Hire a large band of mercenaries, train them up with a few ex navy seals and SAS types. Then use them to attack the Thai government forces and at the same time letting his followers flock to his banner. But this would be civil war, other nations might get involved, it could be a Pyrrhic victory

People may have missed out on 2010's April and May events if they think this wasn't tried. Though it was probably ex Taharn Praharn with a serving General staff member (until May 13th) that were used as the backbone of the armed insurrection in BKK at that time. Though to be relevant it was a small group not a large one -- and they were relying on the historical fact that no government in the past had survived the military using force in BKK. Then again .. no other government was facing well armed and trained insurgents in BKK in the past, which is why Thaksin's attempt failed.

Edited June 8, 2011 by jdinasia

[animatic]

The problem for Yingluck is that her brother has already labelled her merely a 'clone', so any replies she gives to questions such as these hoping to appear as a thoughtful individual, make her look stupid, manipulated and dishonest.

She doesn't need her replies for that.

But she can't be all three.

She's either stupid for allowing herself to be manipulated, or she's not being manipulated and just being dishonest.

Oh I think she could easily be all three simultaneously in varying degrees.

[ianbaggie]

You have posted this on two threads. I think that the quotations are quite apposite and am pleased that you appear to believe as I do, that irrespective of the result Thailand will still be ruled by a self-seeking and self perpetuating plutocracy, from whichever camp. But I cannot be sure that is what you meant.

1) The one pervading evil of democracy is the tyranny of the majority, or rather of that party, not always the majority, that succeeds, by force or fraud, in carrying elections.

• Lord Acton, The History of Freedom and Other Essays, Section III: Sir Erskine May's Democracy in Europe p. 76

There are many components absent from the Thai version of democracy. Not the least of these is the respect for individual rights. Think on how this relates to Thailands situation.

2) We may have democracy, or we may have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both.

• Louis Brandeis, U.S. Supreme Court Justice ~ quoted by Raymond Lonergan in, Mr. Justice Brandeis, Great American (1941), p. 42

Who provides wealth for Thailand if the rich elite do not? Could the rice farmers and those who sleep in their wooden houses with their Hang Song by their side do it - Or is this election all about whether Thais want the present dictatorship or Thgaksins dictatorship to return? If it is then i believe there is nothing for westerners to debate on this forum.

3) Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.

Widely attributed to Benjamin Franklin

Further evidence that there is a line of thought which says that there is more to democracy than mere numbers.

Ive actually posted it on three threads . I was impressed by the way that two of these quotes show that the west has encountered and beaten the problems suffered by Thailand. Individual rights have to go hand in hand with Democracy as does adherence to the law. With that point made - can you explain why you think the posts are contradictory - I think that was what you meant by "apposite"

[anterian]

I have noticed that the majority of members who attack Thaksin at every opportunity are the older members of TV, older in membership, not in age. This possibly reflects the number of years spent in Thailand, if so it suggests they are still trapped in the past, Thaksin was the bogey man that all sensible people should hate.

I was like that, I even joined the PAD marches against Thaksin prior to the coup. Since then I have got to know Thailand much better, I understand that Thaksin was simply a symptom, just like a boil is a symptom of blood poisoning. I not longer hate Thaksin, rather I hate the system that created him and allowed him to flourish.

That system still exists, any changes have been purely cosmetic. The army still lives off the fat of the land with ever increasing consumption of tax payers money. Most politicians, police and government officials are still as corrupt as ever. Vote buying and social division is still the normal order of the day. The Abhisit government nibbles at the problem but dare not take a healthy bite, it would be bitten back ten times harder.

If this system did not exist, did not flourish, then giving Thaksin an amnesty or not would become largely irrelevant, there would be no place for such as him in a clean, honest society. You members fear and hate him because you know Thailand is not a clean society, Thaksin would slot back in just where he left off.

Thaksin is not the real problem, it is the corrupt, feudal, pseudo- democratic society that is Thailand. Thailand is still in the era of "robber barons" , Thaksin was good at it but there are plenty more still operating.

[rubl]

I have noticed that the majority of members who attack Thaksin at every opportunity are the older members of TV, older in membership, not in age. This possibly reflects the number of years spent in Thailand, if so it suggests they are still trapped in the past, Thaksin was the bogey man that all sensible people should hate.

...

I also noticed a lot of new members recently who seem Ms. Yingluck fans for unclear clear reasons except 'she smiles nicely'. Many pro-Thaksin members seem to come and go (aka banned). Maybe older members just know how to avoid taunting pitfalls, trolls and other idiots? IMHO of course

Edited June 8, 2011 by rubl

[jdinasia]

That's a new argument -----

That people with experience posting on TVF and are anti-Thaksin are that way because they have been around for awhile. That being around for awhile means that they are thus out of touch with reality about Thailand's social systems/politics. and finally that (by extension) those that are newer members are less so inclined.

Since MANY of those of us that are anti-Thaksin regularly post about the problems with local/regional political machines surely shows that argument to be false. The old order of the S'noh, Newin, Barnharn, Suthep, etc etc etc political machines have been spoken out against by many members who have managed to both stay active and involved with TVF for years.

The argument that the dislike of Thaksin is solely about his corruption is also erroneous ..... Many people have many different reasons for not wanting to see him back. The foremost reason is the distinct possibility that it would kick off civil strife of an unprecedented order, in my mind. The second, for me, is that his method of buying up the local political machines as he did in the past made the political corruption orders of magnitude worse than it had been in the past. The current government attempting to make inroads into fighting corruption is a HUGE benefit to the country compared to the past. That it takes time to change a society is obvious.

There have been quite vocal Thaksin advocates on TVF over the years just as there have been anti-Thaksin posters. Some stay and post, some pretend to be moderate and only attack the current government and try to avoid Thaksin entirely, some (like folks on the other side) have drifted off .... and finally many have been banned (as have some antiThaksin posters) for violating the rules we all agree to when we join.

Personally, I would say that the system is changing in more than cosmetic ways. The checks and balances destroyed under TRT have been re-strengthened and people on all sides are at least openly talking about trying to combat corruption instead of just accepting it.The system in Thailand is changing, it is just changing slowly. I think most people would agree that education is a problem in Thailand .... that obviously extends to education about politics and corruption.