Advice Needed: Slow Emptying Toilets & Septic Tank System

[CDNinKS]

And don't forget "every a$$holes a customer"

[canopy]

My choice on a toilet vent setup would be a 1" going up 2 might be more than needed.

I have a doubt about this advice since it fails every vent sizing specification I am aware of and is a code violation where I come from. Making up specifications as you go (if that is in fact what this is) is likely what got the OP into this predicament in the first place. And I see the OP of all people went off and made up a design! Are you within the critical distance from trap to vent for the pipe size you are using? Are you aware venting below the roof wafts bad odor around and in the house and is not approved? My advice is get a plumbing book and read it. You will be filled with factual data from experts that takes everything into account.

Not just this thread in particular, but it is odd to see the eagerness of so many to make things up when the answer is a few clicks away. It's like being presented with a complex math problem and some people with weak math skills go calculating answers and posting them, frequently wrong when all they needed to do is punch in a search and the right answer is there waiting for them. It's never been easier to access information than now.

[PattayaParent]

Beardog, can you break your posts up to make them more readable.

Thanks.

[CDNinKS]

I have a doubt about this advice since it fails every vent sizing specification I am aware of and is a code violation where I come from. Making up specifications as you go (if that is in fact what this is) is likely what got the OP into this predicament in the first place. And I see the OP of all people went off and made up a design! Are you within the critical distance from trap to vent for the pipe size you are using? Are you aware venting below the roof wafts bad odor around and in the house and is not approved? My advice is get a plumbing book and read it. You will be filled with factual data from experts that takes everything into account.

Not just this thread in particular, but it is odd to see the eagerness of so many to make things up when the answer is a few clicks away. It's like being presented with a complex math problem and some people with weak math skills go calculating answers and posting them, frequently wrong when all they needed to do is punch in a search and the right answer is there waiting for them. It's never been easier to access information than now.

All true, however this is not a new build we are trying to help the OP with. We are trying to advise him on how to fix a bad installation the cheapest way possible. That can only come from advice from people with some experience in this dept.

[Gary A]

The proper fix is to lower the water level in the septic tank itself. If it were my system, I'd put in an overflow tank. Maybe four or five concrete rings four or five meters from the septic tank itself. Hopefully the ground for the new ring tank will be a little less saturated and the water can peculate into the ground. The old fashioned concrete rings work much better than the new style plastic tanks. DON'T use a plastic tank.

Both our septic tank and the overflow tank are old fashioned concrete ring types. In seven years, we have never had to pump out either tank. The best way to put in the ring tank is to have the hole dug larger than the ring diameter and backfill that space with coarse stones. That in effect makes more area for the water to percolate out and is basically the same as having a larger diameter tank. Good luck. The concrete rings and the labor are not too expensive.

[Artisi]

The proper fix is to lower the water level in the septic tank itself. If it were my system, I'd put in an overflow tank. Maybe four or five concrete rings four or five meters from the septic tank itself. Hopefully the ground for the new ring tank will be a little less saturated and the water can peculate into the ground. The old fashioned concrete rings work much better than the new style plastic tanks. DON'T use a plastic tank.

Both our septic tank and the overflow tank are old fashioned concrete ring types. In seven years, we have never had to pump out either tank. The best way to put in the ring tank is to have the hole dug larger than the ring diameter and backfill that space with coarse stones. That in effect makes more area for the water to percolate out and is basically the same as having a larger diameter tank. Good luck. The concrete rings and the labor are not too expensive.

that is all ok if the ground around the tank permiable, if not there is no soak-away effect and you end up with a big hole full of untreated and highly contaminated bacteria loaded water.

[gdhm]

Was posting at the same time as beardog I guess.

I have to make a few comments. First I would not reduce the vent to 3/4 or 1/2 inch PVC, a minimum would be 2 inch in my opinion. Also I don't believe and kind of a one way valve is necessary in the "Y" connection if you install it the way you show in the diagram. There is no way that any waste can flow up the "Y" and adding a valve would only complicate the system unnecessarily. That is why I recommend 4" as much as possible to preclude the chance of the vent pipe ever plugging. Also, if it ever does become clogged for any reason, all you need to do is run a garden hose of water down the vent to clear it. It was quite common in Canada that the vent stacks would freeze over in the winter, so we used to have to keep an eye on that and if they did we simply went up on the roof with a bucket of hot water and that solved the problem.

This is only my opinion and of course everyone has one, but I have been dealing with septic systems of all types for more than 40 years and the one basic rule still applies......$hit runs downhill

Thanks for this.

Yes I was only considering 4 inch vent tube (same I believe as used for toilet.

At least icing up will not be a problem for me

[CDNinKS]

Gary A, google septic tank images and you will see what I mean about the inlet pipe needing to force the waste under the scum layer. That scum layer can be quite dense and hard in a properly working septic system. I am always amazed at people who brag about how long they have gone without having their septic tanks pumped. It is not a contest. EVERY septic tank will eventually fill with non-biodegradable solids, and if both sections fill then your raw sewage will eventually be going directly to the field/soakaway pits and plugging them. That is a costly fix.

Depending on what actually flows into your specific septic tank (grey and black water or black alone)3-5 years maximum between pump outs. It is very cheap insurance.

[CDNinKS]

Google is your friend.....

The "wet vent" may be what Beardog was referring to. Personally I have never interconnected my grey water and black water vents, however it seems this is acceptable.

The image on the right in the first picture is the ideal vent setup if you are doing a new build.

Here is a link to a website that describes this whole process very clearly:

Click here

Edited June 21, 2011 by CDNinKS

[PattayaParent]

<snip>

========

Venting toilets. I post a diagram based on only way I can see how I can possibly (well realistically) vent my worst toilet No. 3 upstairs (others would be on a similar basis.

My question to the plumbing/venting experts is quick simple;

Would this proposed vent stack suffice? (bearing in mind it would be necessity be around 0.5 metre below Toilet base and joined at a downward vertical connection join if I can find/buy one in Thailand.

Regards, Dave

If you could put a swan neck on it and extend it above the roof line it would be better.

Edited June 21, 2011 by PattayaParent

[gdhm]

My choice on a toilet vent setup would be a 1" going up 2 might be more than needed.

I have a doubt about this advice since it fails every vent sizing specification I am aware of and is a code violation where I come from. Making up specifications as you go (if that is in fact what this is) is likely what got the OP into this predicament in the first place. And I see the OP of all people went off and made up a design! Are you within the critical distance from trap to vent for the pipe size you are using? Are you aware venting below the roof wafts bad odor around and in the house and is not approved? My advice is get a plumbing book and read it. You will be filled with factual data from experts that takes everything into account.

Not just this thread in particular, but it is odd to see the eagerness of so many to make things up when the answer is a few clicks away. It's like being presented with a complex math problem and some people with weak math skills go calculating answers and posting them, frequently wrong when all they needed to do is punch in a search and the right answer is there waiting for them. It's never been easier to access information than now.

Part highlighted in blue

You have made incorrect non factual assumptions:

NOTHING is MY DESIGN

1) The architect placed the toilets where they ideally fitted and were agreed with me. I left it to the architect to take into consideration building aspects in his design.

2) The architect based the system on a single Septic tank (which I told the builder I wished to stick with) rather than builders wish to change to 3 and alternative pipework system. Do not think for one moment the builder was any more more technically knowledgeable than so many so called Thai builders. I am a clerk and you have no idea how many of his errors I nipped in the bud, but some I did not see, or see in time or understand (I am only a retired clerk).

The builder's plumber was responsible for all aspects concerning venting, pipe sizes positioning and slope etc. I did not even tell him where he should site the Septic tank and (he decided on 2 ring drainage containers), NOR did I say what type of drainage system he was to use. He was the builder and I the customer.

I came to this site because I realized (even as a lowly ex-clerk) that 3 sets of Thai "so called" plumber I contacted were guessing and talking out of their ++++++. None made any reference to poor drainage or venting weaknesses. But then how many would think of installing top venting in Thailand anyway (even if they know about the concept and design). Most would much sooner do it "how we have always done it"

Being a clerk and not a plumber is why I submitted a top vent plan and why I asked about Vents AND THEIR PLACEMENT. You choose to have a go at me for not being an expert and consequentially checking. THANKS

As for your advice that all can be found on the internet please may I point our "So can a lot of CR*P.

Even when finding Expert advice on th Internet I noted after MANY, MANY hours of investigation:

1) UK and US do not allow Septic tanks below around 2000 Litres. Most residential ones in Thailand are well below that.

2) Difference countries have multiple different codes/methods. Some contradictory as to what is safe/code

e.g. Some demand top venting and ban Air Valve Venting, Others accept either.

3) This is Thailand, not many builders vent at top, whilst many Western countries mandate it. Few Thailand plumbers seem to understand the concept so how can I trust them to do the job according to safety standards,unless I get some pointers/flags on a Forum like this so I can oversea the basics

4) I correctly asked about my suggested vents "under the eaves" FIRST, coz I know I am not an expert (why the put down),

5) I doubt Thailand has any DECENT code on toilet end venting,so what are you referring to when you say "not approved")

6) All I care about is the system works and isSAFE, whatever other countries (including Thailand) codes are. Must be lawful of course.

One question. "Why should bad odours waft around and in the house if vent ends just under the eaves, Surely at such a height it will very quickly dissipate (even without winds). In Thailand most Septic tanks (extensively uses) have only one tank vent pipe rising only a few feet above ground level in the proximity of the Septic tank. I feel the odour concern is grossly overstated, especially bearing in mind when I lift up the Septic tank lid the Waft is minimal AND I am not getting any odour from the 2 hose pipes venting through the actual toilets (weak venting experiment still working very well)

Why have a DIY section on TVF (or ANY SECTION come to think of it) if all info can be found other sources on the Internet.

Dave

[CDNinKS]

That is always the problem with forums......separating the wheat from the chaff as we used to say. It always amazes me how people will give advise on subjects they have absolutely no knowledge of on forums. I just read a post on another forum where someone asked about weed killer for lawns and someone posted to buy "Roundup" and apply that to his lawn!!!!! For those of you who don't know, Roundup is a post emergence desiccator that will kill anything and everything green it touches.

I digress......

Dave, don't take to heart the people who are trying to get you swayed off point, just do what makes the most sense as from what I have seen of your posts you are a very methodical guy with a lot of common sense.

Good luck

[gdhm]

I have a doubt about this advice since it fails every vent sizing specification I am aware of and is a code violation where I come from. Making up specifications as you go (if that is in fact what this is) is likely what got the OP into this predicament in the first place. And I see the OP of all people went off and made up a design! Are you within the critical distance from trap to vent for the pipe size you are using? Are you aware venting below the roof wafts bad odor around and in the house and is not approved? My advice is get a plumbing book and read it. You will be filled with factual data from experts that takes everything into account.

Not just this thread in particular, but it is odd to see the eagerness of so many to make things up when the answer is a few clicks away. It's like being presented with a complex math problem and some people with weak math skills go calculating answers and posting them, frequently wrong when all they needed to do is punch in a search and the right answer is there waiting for them. It's never been easier to access information than now.

All true, however this is not a new build we are trying to help the OP with. We are trying to advise him on how to fix a bad installation the cheapest way possible. That can only come from advice from people with some experience in this dept.

Quite so,

You are also correct this is not a new build I cannot just tear out floors to adjust pipework or knock holes in roof for vent stacks. Had I been an expert I would of course have insisted on Vent stacks at toilet end after all how cheap and easy it would have been to install these during build.

Lets be honest guys when I hired a builder who was 40 years a builder, who has built and houses for Thais and Westerners and as far away from Isaan as Bangkok and has even built a house for Thai MP in the past it was not unreasonable to think he knew all that was needed to know that was not on the Architects/Engineers plan (both work for a Municipality (so not mickey mouse).

I also think there are many genuine experts on the DIY section of TVF. I have found much sound and helpful advice.

Without responders to my topic I had NO idea that top venting (which I had read about) would help/solve my situation as I thought it was not important as Thai do not seem to use it much . Members here kindly have pointed me in the right directions to investigate further and hosepipe experiment has revealed something new for me to consider/try top venting.

I appreciate not all in TVF are experts and some are giving opinions but in most cases the poster declares their expertise/non expertise up front and even then sometimes a good/well thought piece of logic from a non expert "hits the nail on the head".

I also appreciate that when a majority think the same thing (supported with logic) then it is certainly worth taking seriously and checking out.

I appreciate ALL who have posted to try and help me

That includes Canopy who has usefully raised a venting pipe width concern (certainly in UK my homes' metal vent stacks were vertical extension of the down drainage pipe and consequentially same wide width. That is what I would go with why risk smaller? An under eaves odour concern being aired by Canopy is also useful too. Mayeb as Pattayparetn suggested a Swan neck (although not pretty) would be a solution is under eaves odour really a realistic problem (or would break Thai code law if there is one even if no odours ensued).

Above all I 100% accept it is for me ALONE to take responsibility of any advice I may act upon.

Regards, Dave

[handydog]

Is it possible that when the tank was installed it was done so back to front?

I thought it normal for the exit drain to be below the water surface to prevent floating material from passing into the the next stage.

[handydog]

the water should be flowing into the side that is accesable.... to allow removal of the sludge that will buid up over time

[Naam]

That is always the problem with forums......separating the wheat from the chaff as we used to say. It always amazes me how people will give advise on subjects they have absolutely no knowledge of on forums. I just read a post on another forum where someone asked about weed killer for lawns and someone posted to buy "Roundup" and apply that to his lawn!!!!! For those of you who don't know, Roundup is a post emergence desiccator that will kill anything and everything green it touches.

I digress......

Dave, don't take to heart the people who are trying to get you swayed off point, just do what makes the most sense as from what I have seen of your posts you are a very methodical guy with a lot of common sense.

Good luck

but Roundup does kill all weeds in a lawn, doesn't it?

[gdhm]

That is always the problem with forums......separating the wheat from the chaff as we used to say. It always amazes me how people will give advise on subjects they have absolutely no knowledge of on forums. I just read a post on another forum where someone asked about weed killer for lawns and someone posted to buy "Roundup" and apply that to his lawn!!!!! For those of you who don't know, Roundup is a post emergence desiccator that will kill anything and everything green it touches.

I digress......

Dave, don't take to heart the people who are trying to get you swayed off point, just do what makes the most sense as from what I have seen of your posts you are a very methodical guy with a lot of common sense.

Good luck

Thanks again CDNinKS,

I try my best when I have a problem to seek advice all around and not to rush in on a solution.

In this case:

I first tried my own physical investigation of my system (hence why I emptied the Septic tank (to eliminate it) at a time I felt a waste of time as I was incorrectly convinced the problem was incorrectly fitted toilet boil and blockages). Luckily for me the emptying of the Septic tank told me there were no blockages in the pipes and the toilet fitting whilst not the correct Western method with wax ring is not a problem.

I also read extensively on the Web there was one wonderful site that covered the whole aspect but I could not "see the wood from the trees".

Then I asked several Thai plumbers/builders but it was quickly clear I either had not found true experts, or language barrier, or "set minds were impeding true understanding and a solution that will work. I did not feel it logical to agree and price and have them doing things I suggested (or they were guessing at) without further input.

I then thought of this TVF DIY section which has been so helpful in the past, especially on electrical matters with much advice from Crossy (who seems to be a real expert)and others that proved to be correct and most useful. I have no problems nowadays.

On actual problem

It took me 2 months until I posted on TVF, to understand why with a "above water" inlet pipe All toilets (even No.3) work perfectly with extremely fast draining as good as my houses in UK. (I knew what was needed to be done BUT I like to understand WHY things work, because then I know if I only found a flawed/unsafe temporary patch or a permanent safe fix.

Nearly everybody here kept speaking about venting (obviously to break any airlock or vacuum and allow gravity to work).

Light dawned on me only 2 nights ago. I considered my water chiller with its 20 litre upside down water bottle. I remembered that when I tip upside down, water the fully refilled bottle water would escape until the downward nozzle was below the water level in the chiller container, when it 100% stopped despite the massive weight of water in the bottle. That led me to the coke bottle test and now (thanks to you guys) I understand why a clear Septic tank inlet pipe works on my system or top venting will (as my hose pipe tests show) Breaking the vacuum and letting gravity (plus an element of water flow pull) do its work.

Regretfully my current Septic tank has a baffle board moulded right up to the lid area so I cannot get at or see the inside part of the inlet pipe BUT being a "cheapy" I suspect) Septic tank I am guessing the inlet pipe has an extension pipe down into the tank but does not have that small upwards pipe bit which would break the vacuum. There can be no other explanation.

I have decided following all the advice here to either;

a) try to access the current Septic tank's inside of inlet pipe by risking cutting into the baffle board and "fixing" the inlet pipe to be above water or vented above it OR

more likely, wait until Dry season and replace with DOS Compact Septic Tank, which is better made, stronger, not damaged by my builder and inlet and outlet pipes are readily accessible for maintenance if required) I feel my system will then function perfectly as it did when tank was emptied 2 months ago.

If that occurs then I will not bother trying to install vent stacks at upper toilet ends, even if desirable. The toilets can only drain so fast and if a) or above reaches that maximum (virtually immediate draining of bowls, including 3, then why bother with upper venting as well as no gain (expect technically better).

IF, for some reason a) or does not replicate last times perfect performance (cannot see how how it will not,) then of course I will then seriously consider venting stacks (which my hose test has shown will also work).

=============

I appreciate I have another problem, as many have said here, with a high water table during heavy monsoon rains that still will continue to challenge the concrete ring drainage containers. In 3 years the worst scenario has been toilets not emptying well/fully for a maximum of half day after rain stops (often sooner). I believe the land (which is raised and slopes to road) drains very quickly once heavy elongated periods rain have stopped for a while, and I am OK living with only a few "partially draining" incidents a year. The ring containers and Septic tank have never overflowed in all this time and toilet draining is is back to normal a few hours after the rain stops.

Regards and thanks to all, Dave

PS

Oh I did read one piece of great advice on the internet (to support Canopy's views) one expert said that if water table is believed to be high do NOT empty Septic tank if is is not under a concrete or similar surface otherwise the PVC hollow tank will probably burst though the lawn and float like a boat.

I had already decided to wait a month or so into the dry season so a larger hole could be dug without it filling with water(so I would not have been caught out) BUT BEING 100% honest, I had not thought about the empty Septic tank shooting upwards through the lawn (good one for a Mr. Bean comedy sketch that would be).

Someone having pointed out the possibility its SO obvious NOW

[gdhm]

That is always the problem with forums......separating the wheat from the chaff as we used to say. It always amazes me how people will give advise on subjects they have absolutely no knowledge of on forums. I just read a post on another forum where someone asked about weed killer for lawns and someone posted to buy "Roundup" and apply that to his lawn!!!!! For those of you who don't know, Roundup is a post emergence desiccator that will kill anything and everything green it touches.

I digress......

Dave, don't take to heart the people who are trying to get you swayed off point, just do what makes the most sense as from what I have seen of your posts you are a very methodical guy with a lot of common sense.

Good luck

but Roundup does kill all weeds in a lawn, doesn't it?

or a nuke!

[gdhm]

Is it possible that when the tank was installed it was done so back to front?

I thought it normal for the exit drain to be below the water surface to prevent floating material from passing into the the next stage.

Very interesting you say that handydog and I can tell you that was originally my number 1 suspicion (certainly would not have surprised me watching the workers trying to lever the Septic tank down into a hole full of water ) .

I thought about it and later realized the outlet pipe that I can see is above the filter plastic wheels and sectioned off by the baffle board as it should be. That definitely identified the true outlet pipe.

When toilets (any of them) were with flushed water it did not come out of that pipe. When the tank was emptied I could hear water entering the Septic tank (once again not from the visible outlet pipe. So it is certain the outlet pipe and inlet pipe have not been reversed.

that does not mean the workers did not break as hole in the side of the Septic tank whilst levering it, and then decided to plug it by running the inlet pipes into the now lower (unintended) inlet "hole" ONLY JOKING!......... I think

Regards, Dave

[CDNinKS]

Dave, I really advise you against modifying the septic tank inlet pipe. It is designed with that baffle for a reason. Here is a picture that will show why:

[CDNinKS]

but Roundup does kill all weeds in a lawn, doesn't it?

Yeah, that's true he will not have a weed problem after that

[gdhm]

Dave, I really advise you against modifying the septic tank inlet pipe. It is designed with that baffle for a reason. Here is a picture that will show why:

Hi CDNinKS thanks for the cautionary recommendation, I think I may well follow you advice. I would not want to compromise the baffles function as it it there for a good reason as you say.

What I am tentatively considering is (if possible/feasible).

1) Identify upper part of baffle (above water level) that is just in front of inlet pipe

2) Cut a small as possible access hole in it to access inlet pipe.

3) cut the inlet downpipe higher or preferably dig out a small hole at top of it, to vent it and break the vacuum) leaving the extended down pipe intact and essentially emulating the DOS Compact Septic tank I linked to earlier)

4) Reseal the removed piece of baffle board so it resumes its normal full function (seal with silicone or other suitable sealer)

Why would I consider this instead of biting bullet and buying and fitting a new septic tank (not expensive in grand order of things so cost is not the issue).

Several reasons

1) If it fails (unlikely to be full failure) I can still replace with a new one pretty quickly

2) Its the quickest and least time consuming. If all went well all my problems could be over in an hour or two max.

4) If I replace Septic tank, our house has to go offline for toilets during the Septic tank emptying, digging out, digging bigger hole and replacing with new larger one and refitting. May be in one day, but if I do the correct thing and have a concrete platform added below the septic tank (as there should be already but is not we are looking at 2 days min without toilets.

3) Plumbers so far have seemed reluctant to dig out an old Septic tank wanting me to get workers to do digging myself. If they don't want to do anything why should I bother with them.

5) Based on my experiences too many profess to being experts and knowing exactly what they are doing and know less than Office clerk me

6) How the hell do I dispose of a 1200 litre used and damaged Septic tank

To be honest if someone in my Khon Kaen area who knows what they are doing with Septic tank fitting said to me they'd do it in a day IF:

1) I get New Septic tank delivered to house before hand

2) I get Septic tank emptied and washed out as well as possible early morning before arrival of workers

then they will dig up disconnect and remove old tank, dig bigger hole and fit new tank and connect up

finally they will remove old Septic tank

Cost within reasonable limits I'd say Great Please go ahead.

Trouble is I have little confidence in the building trade based on my 5 years here. They often say what they know you want to hear, quotes change and work is often very poor and not as promised.

I, not speaking Thai have little chance of sorting the "have-a-go" cowboys from the real experts. My wife is willing to translate and find workers/plumbers etc, but things get lost in translation and she is easily fooled by smiley faces and easily made assurances.

I ave found too many want me (the office clerk) to be the foreman and direct them. Great for them then I take the blame for what I do not notice being done wrong by them, and anyway as the saying goes "why keep a dog and bark yourself anyway"

All I want is a quote for "whole job" with a contractor dealing with job from start to finish (buying tank and emptying Septic tank excepted). I want contractor to be responsible for subcontracting workers or whoever needed if he does not have suitable employees - NOT ME"

Regards, Dave

[gdhm]

In regaurds to Gary A's posting I would not discount his advise either. He is on of the more knowledgeable people I have found on TV & does no his shit!

You really have a combination of things going on I feel. It does sound like you have a problem with the tank draining & the venting. I think a vent would definitely help , if nothing else to overcome what you think may be a poor slope scenario. It may be a lot of help to put a vent in But you still will have to get the tank itself squared up if it isn't draining when it is 15 days.

Hi Beardog Thanks for you continuing advice,

Now I have seen the hose venting work I have no reason to think the septic tank is not draining OK into the Concrete Ring drainage containers. The level in the Septic tank is not rising AND even with poor draining of toilets we used them as often as normal. In fact with No.3 sometimes 2 full flushes were needed and half flushing when normally appropriate was not a real option.

The toilet vent setup you have would work but I myself would be hesitant to vent directly into the toilet pipe itself as in code work & in non coded work It isn't really recomended. Will it work , I would think it would since your close to a vertical stack as you can get. Still if you are considering that route it would almost be the same cost to run it correctly into the sink & then to the toilet.

I know it is probably not what you want to hear but I see it as a best option .You would only be using 1 extra 2 T's - less than 4 meters(probably way less) & a 1/2 "-3/4 " (whichever is already in place on the sink) & a 4" connecter with a 2" adapted down to a 1/2 or3/4 " T for the sink line. 2 T's 40 baht the 4'connector around 235 baht The adapters maybe 50 baht or so. That only leaves the labor for the air hammer or chisel to break out on course of tile to the toilet & possibly 2 tiles around the toilet.The labor for the sink portion is 3-4 hours & the toilet should be the same. Add 3-4 hours for retiling & 3-4 hours for installing the pipe on the outside. Which is enough time for hidden problems. When you do any of the work on the inside make sure they lay the pipe on sand & then cement it .That way if you have a problem at some later date it is very easy to lift the tile & do the work. I redid 2/3rds of the work that was done while away in the U.S. already.You might consider putting a larger diameter pipe through the wall to the vent pipe & feed the 1/2 " through the 3/4 " & seal the gap with Silka oil based silicone. Lasts 10-20 years. if you have to rework you just cut the silicone & cut the vent pipe & reinstall the pipe. All my pipes are double jacketed. If you have a cavity in 2 rows of bricks it is not needed.It just makes it very easy & would add up to 79 baht for the 3/4" jacket.The last cost will be the tile( I hope you saved a box of the same tile or you will have to match as closely as you can) It shouldn't be much more than one box up to 300 baht & a bag of concrete 120 baht.

I just did all this in November so it should be similar prices in your are or slightly higher. I pay 400-500 baht for skilled labor which is high but for 1000 baht labor A Thai worker should be able to punch the job out.

I am sorry but I do not understand this aspect of your advice Beardog. As I have said several times the sinks, showers, bath & washing machine outlet are NOT on the same pipework system as the Toilets They have no venting as they do not need to remove gases and the plug holes provide air vents for each fixture. There is NO connection between the 2 piping system or where they outlet to.

1) The 5 toilets pipework ONLY goes to the Septic tank so I do not understand why I would link any smelly air vent for the waste system to the non smelly grey water system than runs to an open small soil ditch in the street.

2) I feel the job would not be as small as you think it may. There are 3 upstairs toilets all on different sides of the building so they could not be interconnected.

3) The sinks are not directly next to the toilets and in fact with No3 there is a whole wall and door in between. You can just see layout in my original toilet house plan. All upstairs bathrooms have a shower square, basin and toilet, Bathroom 3 has a bath in addition. with 3 items (or 4) in each. it was not possible to fit all against/close to outside walls.

4) Two of the upstairs sinks are backed on to internal walls (not outside)

5) All toilet waste pipes go vertically down below the toilet pan directly through the concrete floor They cross to the outside wall area within the space below 1st floor and above the downstairs suspended ceiling (makes sense to me easy, neat and relatively accessible if a leak occurred, by cutting into suspended ceiling). Consequently, I do not understand how I could run any pipe from sink (basin) pipes inside the walls to be able to connect to the toilet. Nor do I personally see any benefit in interconnecting the two (over my suggestion IF it is agreed that mine will work)

6) If do want to get at the upstairs TOILET pipe work and make any connection I'd have to break open 3 separate areas of downstairs suspended ceiling and still I'd have to knock holes into the outside wall.

Maybe I am missing the point Beardog , and if so I apologize. Maybe as you say, without seeing my house layout in person it is hard to visualize as I can.

I can supply a layout exact diagram of Bathroom 3 if it helps but I feel sink and toilet on completely separate pipe systems both on internal opposite walls and equally distant form the outside wall should not be connected in anyway for venting.

After my Septic tank only solution, I am unsure why my venting diagram direct to waste pipes is not the next easiest with a Y connector water cannot go upwards, large vent pipe and directly into waste drop pipe. Only difference I see from a UK vent stack is the the vent connection will approx 50cms below the toilet and not maybe 20 cms. It will still be 9-10 foot above ground level. For me to tap into that pipe would be no more than a hole in the outside wall (or outside column with toilets 4&5) large enough to connect the Y connector to waste pipe on other side. Is that not the easiest, most direct, least damaging and I can have what I feel is the correct width for a vent pipe 4inches diameter (same as toilet waste pipes). Of course if any expert says my venting connection and where it would be would fail top vent properly then that is another issue but if it is OK surely that is much easier

In al fairness to all the posters that offered you input they are all right. Since you have more than one issue at hand & we are all troubleshooting this in the blind without seeing it.

Yes very true and I appreciate that Beardog and everybody. Please do not think I am very grateful to you all

Coz I most certainly am

There is one valve that I have used in the U.S. that would work great on your proposed toilet vent called a studor vent. It is an afterthought vent made for these cases.

It opens on demand & closes when not on demand.

Unfortunately in the land of skimp pickens I have found none here

Here is a picture of the infamous Studor vent if you find anyone that knows of a shop. It goes for 850 baht equivelent in the U.S.

Thanks I will look it up

Kind regards, Dave

[Gary A]

Dave,

When you get the problem solved, please let us know how you did it.

[gdhm]

Dave,

When you get the problem solved, please let us know how you did it.

Sure will Gary , I always do when I have sought advice from others. Its the least I can do and finalises the Topic.

Forgive me if I do not report back until Oct or Nov as I do not plan to do anything until dry season as I am FIRST targeting the Septic tank. I will need the Monsoon rains to have stopped and the water table to have dropped below bottom of Septic tank.

I cannot risk trying to adjust the inlet pipe on my current Septic tank until then either, because if I mess it up and make matters worse I will not be able to rectify with above solution.

The vent stacks will be my last attempted solution as I feel I will not need to to go the whole hog and top vent and knock holes in walls as a replacement Septic tank (or modified current inlet pipe) to ensure a vacuum break I know will suffice (unless history does not repeat itself like last time when I emptied the tank). I feel it has to and there are no new equations and (apart from water) no moving parts, nor electrical or mechanical parts involved.

In a nutshell whatever the limitations of my system (inlet pipe above (or vented) to above water level in septic tank EQUALS 5 perfect extremely fast emptying toilets (including the dreaded No.3)

In the meantime I will live with the temporary hose pipe in Toilet No.3. By no means ideal as water when flushing does access the pipe and I have to blow to clear water out (no great effort). Additionally, the pipe tend to move a little and as the toilets is like most new ones with a small bowl exit it partially impedes emptying. Having said that it is an en suite toilet so looks do not matter and with the little effort it works well. Now 1 flush clears 90% of time whereas I needed equal to 2-3 before and I can hear the air being sucked dowen the hose.

Its very least pleasing to know that top venting is proved to be very effective for my system by the hose, should I need to go that route. Its always great when one knows of 2 different methods that will work to solve a problem "once and for all" as this awful bowl emptying in toilet 3 has been pi##ing me off for 3 years.

Ta Ta For Now

Dave

Will post again in a few months

Once again thank all for you interest, assistance and time

Kind regards, Dave

[gdhm]

If you are still reading topic

A FINAL OPTION QUESTION please for the venting/vacuum experts.

As I cannot get access to the inlet pipe on my existing Septic tank to vent it and break vacuum or get to above water level and it is felt unwise to cut the inlet pipethe could I alternatively either;

a) Cut/ drill a hole into the top of the Septic tank's inlet pipe "square shape" that all round PVC Septic Tanks seems to have and install a 2-4 ins diameter pipe into the hole and extend that vertically a metre approx. into the air (T connector at top)

OR

Cut the inlet pipe just before it accesses the Septic tank's inlet pipe and fit a "T connector" rejoin the pipe with the 3rd pipe hole hole facing upwards, fit a metre long approx. vertical vent vertical pipe (T connector at top of pipe of course)

Would these be as effective (or only minutely less effective) as the vent being inside Septic tank directly above the inlet extended pipe going downwards inside the Septic Tank or the inlet pipe being above water level?

Only difference as far as unscientific me can see is

a) vent pipe is 20-30cms away for end of inlet pipe and an extra 1 metre tube sticking up into the air (which I can disguise with a flower pot and shrub

If the answer is should do same job and equal performance then that is something I can try immediately.

IF it does not work I can easily seal with patch and silicone

Thanks guys, Dave

Edited June 24, 2011 by gdhm

[Gary A]

In my opinion, Putting an air vent in the very top of the tank is a better option than putting it into the inlet pipe. You should have an air space in the very top of the tank. It would certainly not hurt anything and is a fairly easy job. A two inch pipe should be big enough. Even if you want to take it back out, just cut off the pipe and put a cap on it. No patching would be required.

Edited June 25, 2011 by Gary A

[gdhm]

Thanks Gary, That was my opinion.

I did experiment with (another ) empty coke bottle full of water, shallow slope with nozzle below water level and then pierced the top with a small hole a little back from the nozzle (about 2 inches). Emptied pretty fast.

If the pipe works I can add a small bit of cement around the connection point (after silicone sealing it) to keep it stable and firm.

My biggest concern is getting the hole cut out neatly round so the pipe fits tight through the hole. I certainly do not want the vent pipe to protrude more than a tiny bit down into the exterior inlet pipe part of Septic tank or I will risk a possibility of waste blockage.

Dave,

[Gary A]

Thanks Gary, That was my opinion.

I did experiment with (another ) empty coke bottle full of water, shallow slope with nozzle below water level and then pierced the top with a small hole a little back from the nozzle (about 2 inches). Emptied pretty fast.

If the pipe works I can add a small bit of cement around the connection point (after silicone sealing it) to keep it stable and firm.

My biggest concern is getting the hole cut out neatly round so the pipe fits tight through the hole. I certainly do not want the vent pipe to protrude more than a tiny bit down into the exterior inlet pipe part of Septic tank or I will risk a possibility of waste blockage.

Dave,

Most hardwares will have hole saws that you use with an electric drill. The same one that you use to cut a hole in a door for a new lockset is two inches in diameter. A rough half round file will enlarge the hole so you can very snugly fit a two inch pipe into the hole.

[gdhm]

Yes Gary I know the item, thanks for reminding me. I should be able to easily track it down.

I think I will have to connect the vent pipe into the actual pipe for the toilets just before it reaches the Septic Tank's inlet pipe because the concrete ring cover on the top of our ST has a 6 ins concrete flange around it which I expect covers the inlet section of the ST's inlet pipe section I wanted to drill into.

"C'est la vie" .

Not a big deal. Interesting is how very hard the soil is around the ST just beneath the lawn roots after all the recent rain we have had. Shows our soil drains quickly after heavy rains (which has always been my belief). It will however make it hard work for a worker to carefully dig the soil around the ST and pipes leading into it (without doing any damage) to find out exactly where pipes are and allow access to fit the vent pipe into the inlet pipe (probably cut the pipe and use and T connector rather than drilling a hole.

Bye For Now, Dave