Ex-Premier Thaksin Return To Thailand Not Possible: Deputy PM Suthep

[trisailer]

Because you are using numbers that aren't real --- you are using a corruption PERCEPTION index and pretending it is a true measure of corruption. Now you are using different sources apparently to establish your numbers AFAIK there are no actual numbers to use to dispute your misuse of the CPI. I am not disputing facts other than the CPI is what it is.

http://www.icgg.org/...i_2004_faq.html --- the following quote from wiki is sourced from the preceding link. But hey ... like I said Lies, dam_n Lies, and Statistics.

Statistics like this are, by nature, imprecise; statistics from different years aren't necessarily comparable. The ICCR itself explains, "…year-to-year changes in a country's score result not only from a changing perception of a country's performance but also from a changing sample and methodology. Each year, some sources are not updated and must be dropped from the CPI, while new, reliable sources are added. With differing respondents and slightly differing methodologies, a change in a country's score may also relate to the fact that different viewpoints have been collected and different questions been asked… [despite] anti-corruption reform… [or] recent exposure of corruption scandals… t is often difficult to improve a CPI score over a short time period, such as one or two years. The CPI is based on data from the past three years (for more on this, see the question on the sources of data, below). This means that a change in perceptions of corruption would only emerge in the index over longer periods of time".[4]

If you can find a better number let's hear it.

[Thaddeus]

If you can find a better number let's hear it.

42

[whybother]

Actually, I don't know why we are bothering arguing over the exact number of the effect of corruption in Thailand.

Corruption costs a lot and it needs to be wiped out. But where do you start? At the top or at the bottom?

One could say that by removing Thaksin, they have started at a visible point. But there are still corrupt people (in business and politics) that are just as corrupt (on both sides of the fence).

The only way to reduce corruption is to enforce the law. If the law isn't strong enough then strengthen the law. And then apply it across all walks of life, because it isn't just the business leaders and politicians that are corrupt.

It's anyone who pays that little bit more to get things done ... or to avoid things getting done.

[Nisa]

What was the point of comparing corruption in the USA with Thailand? We are talking about the World's Super Power with that of a developing country. I'm not sure how anyone cane get correct number on corruption but In the below report, the US was ranked 19th out of 180 countries while Thailand ranked 84th.

Ranking is based on data from country experts and business leaders at 10 independent institutions, including the World Bank, Economist Intelligence Unit and World Economic Forum. http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2009/nov/17/corruption-index-transparency-international

[jdinasia]

If you can find a better number let's hear it.

42

exactly --- and just as relevant (I hadn't thought of that book in YEARS --- thanks!)

There isn't a number and there is no correlation shown between the amount corruption costs a country (in the corruption PERCEPTION index) and the relevant scoring given.

[themockrat]

BANGKOK, June 17 – Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban on Friday said it was impossible for ousted prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra to return to Thailand later this year.

What if he wanted to report to jail? Not even then? Classic Suthep again.

[letitbe]

If you can find a better number let's hear it.

42

exactly --- and just as relevant (I hadn't thought of that book in YEARS --- thanks!)

There isn't a number and there is no correlation shown between the amount corruption costs a country (in the corruption PERCEPTION index) and the relevant scoring given.

its a proven fact that truth of an argument here is inversely proportional to irrelevance of the argument

[jdinasia]

BANGKOK, June 17 – Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban on Friday said it was impossible for ousted prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra to return to Thailand later this year.

What if he wanted to report to jail? Not even then? Classic Suthep again.

Nah -- classic under-reporting for length --- the following from post 24

Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban said the fugitive billionaire, who controls the opposition Puea Thai Party from his Dubai mansion, can return to Thailand only if he agreed to serve a two-year jail sentence for corruption.

[Thaddeus]

If you can find a better number let's hear it.

42

exactly --- and just as relevant (I hadn't thought of that book in YEARS --- thanks!)

There isn't a number and there is no correlation shown between the amount corruption costs a country (in the corruption PERCEPTION index) and the relevant scoring given.

its a proven fact that truth of an argument here is inversely proportional to irrelevance of the argument

Yayyyy.... some people got it, I'm not that weird after all.

[Buchholz]

BANGKOK, June 17 – Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban on Friday said it was impossible for ousted prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra to return to Thailand later this year.

What if he wanted to report to jail?

Suthep no doubt considering the extreme implausibility of that to the point it is moot in making his accurate statement.

.

[atyclb]

Even if he comes back in some form or another the people are not just going to breath a sigh of relief, their going to expect results and I have no doubt that if they don't get them they will continue to seek them by whatever means they chose.

I can't say with any certainty that Thaksin will fix everything, but he will buy some breathing room and he is probably the best guy to "convince" the real power in Thailand that they need to "share the wealth." I'm a poker player not an intellectual. I look at the odds and the best odds for stability is the reds getting a shot. Conveniently it is also the most likely outcome.

I think that many of you are basing your views on what you have been taught to think; that democracy is good, socialism is bad, etc. If you think objectively you must see that democracy is a failing social system because it cannot react fast enough to the changing times.

" I'm a poker player not an intellectual............... democracy is a failing social system............"

The greatest minds of the last 20 centuries have decided that democracy, while not perfect, is the best system devised so far, but we should take your word for it that it's stuffed. And as

"The most money I ever made was from a series of pyramid schemes............" I gather that you're not even much of a poker player. You do seem to have an affection for criminals though.

Part of the reason Democracy the, concept is said to work, is just precisely the lag time of accepting change. So that temporary trends don't radically skew the system, and screw individuals, only to change back soon there after. It modulates the tyranny of the majority.

Most of the time this works well, times like 'Post 9/11' is one of those times a sea change in public perceptions, caused a radicle shift in democratic functioning. Generally Democracy modulates that well.

The Democratic functioning under the peoples Constitution was intended to be more immune to the whims and machinations of the society and it's leaders. It proved signally not up to the job, noting how easily Thaksin was able to circumvent it's checks and balances. The 2007 seems to potentially be better, noting the full court press of Team Thaksin to repeal it... it must HURT his aims significantly.

IMHO the coups have been the result of Thailands inability to

create a working bullet proof constitution from scratch and / or

modify existing ones to correct the mistakes, without writing in new ones just as bad.

3 parts to why.

1 ) it is cultural, the society has not previously dealt with the speed of communications and integration in the world economy. Wealth came in, and created more wealth, but this was grafted on top of ancient kow tow cultural systems, and the culture hasn't caught up.

2 ) The nature of kow tow systems exalts the wealthy and powerful over any less wealthy and powerful, add to this a schooling system that both reinforces this unquestioning, blind respect, and obedience to the wealthy, and also teaches them NOT to get out of line or believe any but 'Thai people and Thai culture', are by far the best on earth.

So they can't consider borrowing a constitution or proven workable parts of other cultures legal systems. It's just not Thai, so can't be as good.

3 ) the political culture has grown into a period of great cash inflows, but hasn't developed as fast as the communications cultures,

and thus many see greater gaps and injustices than in several other cultures.

So certain segments using the kow tow organizational methods, or feudalist control methods, try to manipulate the people who are marginally connected to much greater communications, but not fully into greater improvements in their lives or educations and opportunities.

So, we have the kow tow methods used to control communications and control power distribution, using the disaffected as pawns, by the exact same power structure that has locally and regionally KEPT them pawns of the political structure, which is tied directly to kow tow feudal controls of the masses and profiteering.

So we have a country that can only look through a narrow lens at how to create a constitution, while worshiping those who have power as if this were true leadership, and all this caught in a cultural time warp fighting between it's arch nationalist indoctrination arriving at it's nadir, and a new neo socialist or communist indoctrination used by a cynical neo-capitalist / kow tow leadership, for a new ascending power block, as a changing of the old guard systems is imminent.

Of course one force wants to move forward systematically, not a throwing out the baby with bathwater rush, and the other side wants to install it's tentacles and levers into positions of power to take over during the coming change.

And both wants to create a constitution that fits these long term goals, and their methods are both subtle and ham-fisted.

The democracy is not working well enough here partly because, so many of those that have drawn it up historically, don't properly understand it's functioning, and it's functioning in relation to their culture and ALL cultures, and the differences between those cultures takes on Democracy.

Sadly they seem to mostly throw it out and write again from scratch, rather than adjust and massage and observe from perviously existing and well tried systems.

Breathing room is the last thing Thaksin will be buying by the way.

He may be from the younger generation relatively, but he is firmly a child of the Chinese / Kow Tow/ 100 year dynastic family culture, while using modern cultural and communications methods, grafted to kow tow manipulation of society, to himself win power.

Face, power and money creating both, being the goals to satisfy his ego and need for supremacy. He may get back in control of a party in government, but he can't control his need to CONTROL.

Share the wealth... LOL.

when has Thaksin shared his wealth...

surely not by paying his taxes,

or not cheating via proxies and family shills.

surely not by re-writing laws to benefit HIS clan and no one else.

Democracy is not his aim, it is just his tool.

Democracy is not perfect, but it is much better than the other systems man has tried, which explains why in the long run it HAS been more successful, if not in every corner of every land in synchronicity. Some places take longer for it to become part of the culture and to take over from time dishonored ways, such as kow tow.

China took one path to leave kow tow, but we are seeing that path proving to be a 'red herring', as the current riots attest. Half a democracy is not democracy, as Thailand is also discovering for different reasons. Leading Thailand down China's path decades after it's clear that is a false way, will not benefit the poor,

just switch one elite for another and mismanage the society till the next cultural blow up.

Animatic; thank you for a very well thought out and eloquent post.

[SteeleJoe]

I think it is hilarious how all you farang go on and on and on and on about your political theories of how democracy is "supposed to work" when the fact is that each and every western civilization when through this exact same process.

At this point I would have no problem with him being treated as a terrorist and having the Thai government contract with the US or CIA to treat him as the US treats other fugitive terrorists.

So those who cant see it and cant see connection between Taksins tactics and Hitler Saddam and rest are in for a real lesson which sadly will quite probably result in thousands if not millions of innocent deaths.

[SteeleJoe]

Security experts are well aware of what can happen if these things get out of hand and they know how to prevent it.

Really? Can you provide an example where that's been done? Then we can stack them up against the dozens of times throughout history where it hasn't despite the existence of massive and very competent security organizations.

If it's so simple, please elaborate.

(By the way, I was not at all impressed with the way the government handled the Rajaprasong takeover and am perfectly willing to believe that it could have been done better; what I doubt is that it's as simple as you make it or that your glib remarks are based on anything of real substance).

[SteeleJoe]

" I'm a poker player not an intellectual............... democracy is a failing social system............"

The greatest minds of the last 20 centuries have decided that democracy, while not perfect, is the best system devised so far, but we should take your word for it that it's stuffed. And as

"The most money I ever made was from a series of pyramid schemes............" I gather that you're not even much of a poker player. You do seem to have an affection for criminals though.

Just which minds are you referring to? Last time I checked on the last 20 century's every society on the planet was/is autocratic. 98% of the world never heard of democracy until about 300 years ago and even today over half the world is ruled by autocrats. Greece and Rome weren't even real democracy's. Democracy is far from"the best system devised so far" It never would have arose at all if not for poor leadership by the autocrats and furthermore it isn't even democracy when certain leaders control the message which manipulates people to vote for them against their own self interest. It is more like psychological autocracy. At best democracy is a social experiment and not the best system and you have been brainwashed.

Yes I do have an affection for criminals and so do most people. They are usually interesting characters. Virtually every town has statues of people who were considered criminals in their own time. Millions of books have been sold because most people are intreagued by them. If your suggesting that you have never broken a law or lied or done anything unethical than I suggest that you put yourself in for sainthood.

The world moves on leadership regardless of the system. The democratic systems that are successful are so because the voters are informed and have a clear view of their objectives or they have a leader who has a clear view of what is best for them. Democracy is a theory except in a few places where it does seem to be working. It relies on the determination of the voters to "stick to the plan" which few humans seem willing to do. Even George Washington was offered the position of King by the "revolutionaries" who just got done throwing off another King. People want/need leadership.

The best system is an autocracy. The worst system is also an autocracy. The issue isn't the system so much as the leaders involved. The best leaders of democracy's have been autocrats by virtue of their ability to get things done. Try to sail a ship by committee or fight a war, or run a company. Look at Apple under Steve Jobs leadership and compare that to what it was without him. Capitalism runs on autocracies, as it should. Do you let your children have a vote in how your money is spent? How about your Thai family? If democrocy is so great it shoud be great applied everywhere. Right?

A perfect example of my point is if it is so good than why don't you run your own company as a democrocy? How about your family? Why wouldn't every orgainization in the world seek democratic rule? You see how you have been brainwashed? You can't even see the difference in the logic of how it cannot work for your company and it is not working for most governments.

Wow.

Jam-packed with fallacies, historical ignorance, illogical thinking and bu*^#it rhetoric.

Impressive. Too much for me.

[SteeleJoe]

The Thai people were perfectly happy with their King until some powerful people came along and ran him out of town. These people told the Thai people that they were better off with a democracy, Their still scratching their heads to try to understand what is better about this democracy.

And the hits keep coming!

What an interesting version of Thai history.

[SteeleJoe]

Lincoln was a complete failure IMO. He let the civil war happen which killed over a million people and destroyed the American economy for many decades.

Perhaps you need to learn something about:

A) the antecedents of the war; the movers and shakers of the decades prior to it; the state of the US when Lincoln became president and

the economy of the US in the 19th century.

A complete failure? Your opinion is noted. Given that Lincoln somehow managed to hold the country together it's no wonder that I've never seen any credible historian characterize him as you have.

[SteeleJoe]

Sorry, can't get my posts to edit. Wasn't supposed to be a smiley in the last one, the last couple were supposed to be joined, and I meant to add:

By Trisailor's standards and logic (sic) , Ghandi -- who he admires -- was a complete failure. He "let the partition happen" and the continual strife between Pakistan and India (with MANY tangential repercussions) -- resulting in the death of hundreds of thousands.

[themockrat]

I'll be missing Suthep ...NOT!

[whybother]

I'll be missing Suthep ...NOT!

Well, at least we agree on one thing.

[kkerry]

Listen to this. No matter what the polls say or the boob tube Dems will continue to enjoy their current position in the Government. The Reds/ PTP supporters do not out number the silent majority that is a fact. You red/Thaskin supporters who's head's and ego's are is inflated as your hero's is. To claim victory and to run on a false platform to help one person is in no way going to happen. Forget the army getting involved it will be the silent majority that will make the red head's spin.

Sometimes things just don't go the way you expect...