Avoid Bangkok's Ratchaprasong, Reds Told

[webfact]

Avoid Ratchaprasong, reds told

By Somroutai Sapsomboon,

Pravit Rojanaphruk,

Thanatpong Khongsai

The Nation

Bid to avoid confrontation when Democrats rally on Thursday; Abhisit says his party wants to inform public about last year's bloody events

Red-shirt leaders yesterday urged their followers not to be present at the Ratchaprasong intersection on Thursday, while the ruling Democrat Party insisted it would take the stage there to express its views on the bloody incidents involving the military crackdown in May last year.

Thida Thavornset, chairwoman of the Democratic Alliance Against Dictatorship (DAAD), told The Nation that the red shirts would not be present at Ratchaprasong on that day and would let the Democrat Party do whatever it wanted.

"I really don't understand why the Democrats have to do this; it is not the way politicians in a democratic society should behave," she said.

Thida will hold a news conference tomorrow to make clear the DAAD's position on the matter.

Some red-shirt groups, however, will gather tomorrow at the Eravan Hindu shrine on Ratchaprasong Road to worship the Hindu god, cursing those who killed protesters and set fire to the capital last year.

"The Wednesday gathering is not an official presence of the DAAD but some of them might want to express their feelings about being insulted by the Democrats," Thida said.

Kokaew Pikulthong, a red-shirt leader and Pheu Thai Party candidate, said none of the red shirts should be at Ratchaprasong on the day the Democrats rally there.

The red shirts don't need to do anything in reaction to the Democrat move, he said. "Let the public judge the Democrats' action on election day."

The idea of holding an election campaign at Ratchaprasong where a military crackdown killed many people could be regarded as a humiliation of the dead people, he said.

"If the party performed a ceremony to ask for forgiveness from the dead, their relatives would have no problem. But I think the Democrats would not care about them, the party would simply do anything to win the election," he said.

However, an unspecified num-ber of left-wing red shirts plan to dress themselves as ghosts to attend the Democrat Party rally at Ratchaprasong Intersection on Thursday.

Red-shirt member Jitra Kotchadej told The Nation there were concerns that something untoward may happen, although the Prakai Fai Group, who will dress themselves as ghosts, insisted it would be peaceful.

Jitra supported the idea because "many of those killed may have wanted to listen to what Abhisit had to say today if they were alive, but they had no chance" because they were killed around the area.

Democrat leader and Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva said his party had the right to perform political activities at Ratchaprasong to express its version of the bloody incidents.

"Many groups have the basic right to express their beliefs, so why can't the Democrats do the same?" he said.

Political observers said the Democrats wanted to take the stage at Ratchaprasong to influence public opinion about the bloody incident and to win over voters in the capital who disagreed with the red shirts. The move would likely fuel conflict with the red shirts, they said.

Abhisit said he did not expect to gain massive votes from the rally at Ratchaprasong. "It is just a normal campaign to tell the pubic that everybody can use the location for any activities. Ratchaprasong belongs to all Thai people and nobody has special privilege to monopolise the area," he said.

Abhisit will take the stage with Democrat secretary-general Suthep Thaugsuban, according to party member Ong-art Klampaiboon.

Former prime minister Chuan Leekpai, the Democrat chief adviser, will also take the stage at Ratchaprasong to help Abhisit and Suthep highlight the links between ex-prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra and the red shirts, a party source said.

Suthep will highlight the role of the red shirts in the arson attack on CentralWorld, the source said.

-- The Nation 2011-06-21

[londonthai]

sorry, who told reds to avoid the area?

looks like they themselves have decided not to go there

[whybother]

sorry, who told reds to avoid the area?

looks like they themselves have decided not to go there

Well, most of them, anyway.

However, an unspecified num-ber of left-wing red shirts plan to dress themselves as ghosts to attend the Democrat Party rally at Ratchaprasong Intersection on Thursday.

[ianbaggie]

"I really don't understand why the Democrats have to do this; it is not the way politicians in a democratic society should behave," she said."

But Khun Thida - the red shirts have been doing this for the last 14 months and we all know red shirts ARE politicians. Red shirt is just another word for Pheu Thai is just another word for Thaksins will because hes a billionaire !!!!!!!! Double standards from PT yet again.

God help Thailand if they form a Government.

[cougar52]

"I really don't understand why the Democrats have to do this; it is not the way politicians in a democratic society should behave," she said.

Does she think that DADD and PT has exclusive rights to insult people and own that intersection. How is the DADD suppose to behave if the Dems are not suppose to.

Planking on Sunday and dressing up like ghosts complete with fake blood is the proper way to behave month after month for over a year.

You know if you play in the street, you might be hit by a car. If you shoot bullets and grenades at the police and the army you also may be hit.

You can not negotiate with a closed mind and ignorance.

[ianbaggie]

"I really don't understand why the Democrats have to do this; it is not the way politicians in a democratic society should behave," she said.

Does she think that DADD and PT has exclusive rights to insult people and own that intersection. How is the DADD suppose to behave if the Dems are not suppose to.

Planking on Sunday and dressing up like ghosts complete with fake blood is the proper way to behave month after month for over a year.

You know if you play in the street, you might be hit by a car. If you shoot bullets and grenades at the police and the army you also may be hit.

You can not negotiate with a closed mind and ignorance.

The answer to your first question is "yes she does"!

[OzMick]

I'm hoping that they will play footage of speeches from the red stage inciting hatred and violence - and there are plenty to choose from. Ever since the event, it has been red-shirt and PTP policy to rewrite history portraying themselves as innocent lambs slaughtered by the evil military. The red supporters on this forum have continually portrayed every death to the hands of the military when that is patently untrue.

We even have a couple of pacifist fools who delude themselves into believing that the facade of peaceful protest was real. You don't bring AK-47s, M-79s and molotov cocktails to a peaceful protest. 1 human life is 1 too many! but not if it is a conscript soldier doing his job, or a woman waiting for a train.

Stay away, or the ugly truth will smack you across the face and leave a red flush of shame.

[SomTumTiger]

You guys are debating as if the PTP has a snowball's chance in hell to form the next government. lol

[trisailer]

You guys are debating as if the PTP has a snowball's chance in hell to form the next government. lol

That's not what the polls say. Get back to us on the day after the election.

[trisailer]

Another attempt by Abhisit to incite violence in the hope to discredit the PTP. This is desperation politics at it's ugliest.

I hope he explains why his forces continued to kill citizens long after they had surrendered within the walls of the Wat that was a agreed upon "safe area" and contained women and children.

I hope he reminds people that the protest was peaceful for 4 weeks before his troops attacked mostly unarmed citizens.

[SomTumTiger]

You guys are debating as if the PTP has a snowball's chance in hell to form the next government. lol

That's not what the polls say. Get back to us on the day after the election.

You are suggesting that polls will determine who has a snowball's chance in hell of forming the next government? Naivety to say the least.

[sbk]

Lets all re-read the pinned forum announcement before it gets too heated

[SomTumTiger]

Nothing heated in saying that the miltary will do what happened last time - force the small parties (or make them feel they have been forced) to shun the PTP and join a Dem-led coalition. Its happened before, it will happen again, and nothing has changed to suggest another possible outcome.

[trisailer]

Abhisit want to "inform people about last years bloody events" He just doesn't want to investigate them and find the truth. If he's so sure that it is all the reds fault why not allow an independent authority investigate them. If there had ALREADY been an independent investigation, and he was held without fault (as opposed to being charged with murder) he should welcome it.

If I were him I too would be scared if the PTP gets elected because one of the first things THEY will do is appoint an independent investigation and then maybe we will know the truth. Perhaps he then will be the one in exile from murder charges.

Edited June 21, 2011 by trisailer

[OzMick]

Another attempt by Abhisit to incite violence in the hope to discredit the PTP. This is desperation politics at it's ugliest.

I hope he explains why his forces continued to kill citizens long after they had surrendered within the walls of the Wat that was a agreed upon "safe area" and contained women and children.

I hope he reminds people that the protest was peaceful for 4 weeks before his troops attacked mostly unarmed citizens.

".........mostly unarmed citizens." Note, my emphasis.

So you now admit that weapons were brought to the rally by the "peaceful protesters." Finally we move closer to the truth.

As the military commander was killed by an M-79 grenade during the first dispersal effort, are you willing to admit that this was carried out by the red-shirts? And that they were both earlier and later sprayed around the city, killing at least one bystander (a red-shirt has confessed, if you find this difficult)?

He also confessed to firing RPG rounds at a fuel tank farm, and a hotel. Are RPG the sort of things brought to a peaceful protest?

Are the lives lost in these attacks justifiable to you to prove a political point? Is not "1 life lost one life too many!"?

Want to borrow a beer bottle to bang your head with? I don't drink out of cans.

Edited June 21, 2011 by OzMick

[whybother]

Another attempt by Abhisit to incite violence in the hope to discredit the PTP. This is desperation politics at it's ugliest.

I hope he explains why his forces continued to kill citizens long after they had surrendered within the walls of the Wat that was a agreed upon "safe area" and contained women and children.

I hope he reminds people that the protest was peaceful for 4 weeks before his troops attacked mostly unarmed citizens.

Peaceful except for the two violent incidents in the days before April 10 ... which you constantly seem to ignore.

Maybe the troops were attacking the armed "citizens" amongst the "mostly unarmed citizens"? You know, the ones shooting at the army and throwing grenades?

[ianbaggie]

I'm hoping that they will play footage of speeches from the red stage inciting hatred and violence - and there are plenty to choose from. Ever since the event, it has been red-shirt and PTP policy to rewrite history portraying themselves as innocent lambs slaughtered by the evil military. The red supporters on this forum have continually portrayed every death to the hands of the military when that is patently untrue.

We even have a couple of pacifist fools who delude themselves into believing that the facade of peaceful protest was real. You don't bring AK-47s, M-79s and molotov cocktails to a peaceful protest. 1 human life is 1 too many! but not if it is a conscript soldier doing his job, or a woman waiting for a train.

Stay away, or the ugly truth will smack you across the face and leave a red flush of shame.

..........................................and then they even have the cheek to claim all 92 (when its really 91) killed by the Government - when THEY killed half of them! "Please dont shout "Prove it, prove it" - the red shirt apologists should understand that its BORING to keep proving the same thing over and over, because a seemingly endless request for the same proof is the only thing they can throw back!

[ianbaggie]

Abhisit want to "inform people about last years bloody events" He just doesn't want to investigate them and find the truth. If he's so sure that it is all the reds fault why not allow an independent authority investigate them. If there had ALREADY been an independent investigation, and he was held without fault (as opposed to being charged with murder) he should welcome it.

If I were him I too would be scared if the PTP gets elected because one of the first things THEY will do is appoint an independent investigation and then maybe we will know the truth. Perhaps he then will be the one in exile from murder charges.

Who is STOPPING an independent authority from investigating? Can you provide proof of this? Can you post a link to this? When was Abhisit charged with murder? Can you provide proof of this? Can you post a link?

....................... let me ask you how can a future investigation be independent if it is appointed by the Pheu Thai party? The only ones on any sort of charge are red shirts and their leaders - all convicted on solid video evidence of insighting riots and arson and murder. Oh...........and your Robin Hood leader in self imposed exile and on terrorism charges.. Would you like me to paste links to substantiate these points? You really do need to think about what you post!!

[ianbaggie]

Another attempt by Abhisit to incite violence in the hope to discredit the PTP. This is desperation politics at it's ugliest.

I hope he explains why his forces continued to kill citizens long after they had surrendered within the walls of the Wat that was a agreed upon "safe area" and contained women and children.

I hope he reminds people that the protest was peaceful for 4 weeks before his troops attacked mostly unarmed citizens.

".........mostly unarmed citizens." Note, my emphasis.

So you now admit that weapons were brought to the rally by the "peaceful protesters." Finally we move closer to the truth.

As the military commander was killed by an M-79 grenade during the first dispersal effort, are you willing to admit that this was carried out by the red-shirts? And that they were both earlier and later sprayed around the city, killing at least one bystander (a red-shirt has confessed, if you find this difficult)?

He also confessed to firing RPG rounds at a fuel tank farm, and a hotel. Are RPG the sort of things brought to a peaceful protest?

Are the lives lost in these attacks justifiable to you to prove a political point? Is not "1 life lost one life too many!"?

Want to borrow a beer bottle to bang your head with? I don't drink out of cans.

Exactly.....................as the British legion says - "lest we forget" !!

[animatic]

Another attempt by Abhisit to incite violence in the hope to discredit the PTP. This is desperation politics at it's ugliest.

I hope he explains why his forces continued to kill citizens long after they had surrendered within the walls of the Wat that was a agreed upon "safe area" and contained women and children.

I hope he reminds people that the protest was peaceful for 4 weeks before his troops attacked mostly unarmed citizens.

The desperation in this post comes through rather loudly.

Oh so sorry they will go to the place of the Red Riots and remind the population about what the Reds did to the country there. Oh the horror of the truth being advertised at the very site.

[animatic]

"I really don't understand why the Democrats have to do this; it is not the way politicians in a democratic society should behave," she said.

Sure she does.

If she really doesn't then she's on glue or delusional.

This is exactly as politicians in any country would act.

Go to the place where your opponents alies have caused death and destruction and remind the voters of what they have done and why. Som mon nah, this is most appropriate conduct. Thida's comment is not, just self serving propaganda twaddle.

[trisailer]

".........mostly unarmed citizens." Note, my emphasis.

So you now admit that weapons were brought to the rally by the "peaceful protesters." Finally we move closer to the truth.

As the military commander was killed by an M-79 grenade during the first dispersal effort, are you willing to admit that this was carried out by the red-shirts? And that they were both earlier and later sprayed around the city, killing at least one bystander (a red-shirt has confessed, if you find this difficult)?

He also confessed to firing RPG rounds at a fuel tank farm, and a hotel. Are RPG the sort of things brought to a peaceful protest?

Are the lives lost in these attacks justifiable to you to prove a political point? Is not "1 life lost one life too many!"?

Want to borrow a beer bottle to bang your head with? I don't drink out of cans.

There were about 160,000 protesters and a few had weapons that Human Rights Watch believe were brought in later by the black shirts. If the intentions were towards violence than why bring women and children? Why wait 4 weeks to initiate it?

From the HRW report:

"Based on investigations conducted in Bangkok and in Thailand’s central and northeastern regions from June 2010 to April 2011, this report provides the first full account of the violence and the reasons behind it. The high death toll and injuries resulted from excessive and unnecessary lethal force on the part of security forces, including firing of live ammunition at protesters, sometimes by snipers. Soldiers fatally shot at least four people, including a medic treating the wounded, in or near a temple in Bangkok on May 19, despite army claims to the contrary".

The violence was initiated by the army and the commander was killed after it started. I have participated in many demonstrations including some that were dispersed by police using tear gas, rubber bullets and a massive wall of police. You can bet that is this happened in the west there would be a independent investigation, but more importantly it never would have reached that level of violence. Guns would have never been allowed anywhere near the place. The army has 700,000 troops and I don't know how many police.

I completely agreed that even one loss of life is too many. I also agree that the reds defeated the purpose of the protest by allowing the black shirts and other to fight with weapons. Humans are emotional creatures which is why the reds held "schools" prior to the event to keep people nonviolent. Everyones emotions were aroused and both sides lost control of their people, that's what happens when these things get out of control. That's why government set up and control areas that contain protesters. That's why people are searched before they enter those ares. This is all security 101. The soldiers continued to kill people even after the reds surrendered. several protesters were unarmed when shot by snipers according to wittinesses.

None of the lives lost on either side were justifiable. Even after extensive interviews and review of what evidence is available nobody knows what happen for sure. That's why a independent investigation should be conducted. This government does not want that because they already know the truth.

I'm not defending the reds. What happened is deplorable, but people are angry and fed up being denied any kind of democratic process that is fair.

There is no defending the coup that tossed out Thaksin. Thailand claims to be a country that respects the rule of law, but the reality is another thing. There was a legal process for his removal and had the army chose that process none of this would be happening and we would be moving forward with progress. All of these events stem from the denial of the government to respect it's own constitution. The same constitution that was changed to subvert the democratic process.

Most of us come from democratic country's do you seriously believe that any of the governments actions would stand up in our own country?

[Caliguy]

Yes lets cheer for the Anti-Foreigner party to win again. Genius.

[Phatcharanan]

Abhisit want to "inform people about last years bloody events" He just doesn't want to investigate them and find the truth. If he's so sure that it is all the reds fault why not allow an independent authority investigate them. If there had ALREADY been an independent investigation, and he was held without fault (as opposed to being charged with murder) he should welcome it.

If I were him I too would be scared if the PTP gets elected because one of the first things THEY will do is appoint an independent investigation and then maybe we will know the truth. Perhaps he then will be the one in exile from murder charges.

You are quite the brainwashed ignorant aren't you?

[whybother]

There were about 160,000 protesters and a few had weapons that Human Rights Watch believe were brought in later by the black shirts. If the intentions were towards violence than why bring women and children? Why wait 4 weeks to initiate it?

From the HRW report:

"Based on investigations conducted in Bangkok and in Thailand's central and northeastern regions from June 2010 to April 2011, this report provides the first full account of the violence and the reasons behind it. The high death toll and injuries resulted from excessive and unnecessary lethal force on the part of security forces, including firing of live ammunition at protesters, sometimes by snipers. Soldiers fatally shot at least four people, including a medic treating the wounded, in or near a temple in Bangkok on May 19, despite army claims to the contrary".

The violence was initiated by the army and the commander was killed after it started. I have participated in many demonstrations including some that were dispersed by police using tear gas, rubber bullets and a massive wall of police. You can bet that is this happened in the west there would be a independent investigation, but more importantly it never would have reached that level of violence. Guns would have never been allowed anywhere near the place. The army has 700,000 troops and I don't know how many police.

I completely agreed that even one loss of life is too many. I also agree that the reds defeated the purpose of the protest by allowing the black shirts and other to fight with weapons. Humans are emotional creatures which is why the reds held "schools" prior to the event to keep people nonviolent. Everyones emotions were aroused and both sides lost control of their people, that's what happens when these things get out of control. That's why government set up and control areas that contain protesters. That's why people are searched before they enter those ares. This is all security 101. The soldiers continued to kill people even after the reds surrendered. several protesters were unarmed when shot by snipers according to wittinesses.

None of the lives lost on either side were justifiable. Even after extensive interviews and review of what evidence is available nobody knows what happen for sure. That's why a independent investigation should be conducted. This government does not want that because they already know the truth.

I'm not defending the reds. What happened is deplorable, but people are angry and fed up being denied any kind of democratic process that is fair.

There is no defending the coup that tossed out Thaksin. Thailand claims to be a country that respects the rule of law, but the reality is another thing. There was a legal process for his removal and had the army chose that process none of this would be happening and we would be moving forward with progress. All of these events stem from the denial of the government to respect it's own constitution. The same constitution that was changed to subvert the democratic process.

Most of us come from democratic country's do you seriously believe that any of the governments actions would stand up in our own country?

Once again, you ignore the fact that the violence was initiated by the red shirts when they stormed parliament and Thaicom, before April 10. Before that, they pushed and prodded at every stage. The government let them protest. The government let them spread blood around. The government let them take a tour of Bangkok. They confronted the army stationed away from protest areas. The army backed off. The red shirts kept on pushing to get a reaction. Finally they got a reaction and they were ready with their armed militia with guns and grenades.

Where is it stated who started the violence on the evening of April 10? As far as I know, no one knows who started shooting. If weapons were brought in later by the black shirts, why did they have them there on April 10, during the start of the violence? Why did they bring in grenades? In the west, when a protest is dispersed, do the protesters respond by throwing grenades? How do you stop people bringing that into a protest area with out completely shutting down a large portion of the city?

You ask why the red shirts would bring women and children into the protest if they were planning violence? Can you point out where the women and children were on the evening of April 10? They were no where to be seen and after April 10 they were safely tucked away in the middle of the protest area in Ratchaprasong ... pretty much like human shields, don't you think? While on the outside of the protest areas, the army were being attacked well outside the tyre and bamboo barricades.

[xminator]

Its a bit like a certain right wing neo party doing a march in a certain historical work camp. They and their supporters very well know why its provocative, and understand that the propaganda value is good no matter what happens. Just can't say so or the propaganda value is nullified...

[ianbaggie]

There were about 160,000 protesters and a few had weapons that Human Rights Watch believe were brought in later by the black shirts. If the intentions were towards violence than why bring women and children? Why wait 4 weeks to initiate it?

From the HRW report:

"Based on investigations conducted in Bangkok and in Thailand's central and northeastern regions from June 2010 to April 2011, this report provides the first full account of the violence and the reasons behind it. The high death toll and injuries resulted from excessive and unnecessary lethal force on the part of security forces, including firing of live ammunition at protesters, sometimes by snipers. Soldiers fatally shot at least four people, including a medic treating the wounded, in or near a temple in Bangkok on May 19, despite army claims to the contrary".

The violence was initiated by the army and the commander was killed after it started. I have participated in many demonstrations including some that were dispersed by police using tear gas, rubber bullets and a massive wall of police. You can bet that is this happened in the west there would be a independent investigation, but more importantly it never would have reached that level of violence. Guns would have never been allowed anywhere near the place. The army has 700,000 troops and I don't know how many police.

I completely agreed that even one loss of life is too many. I also agree that the reds defeated the purpose of the protest by allowing the black shirts and other to fight with weapons. Humans are emotional creatures which is why the reds held "schools" prior to the event to keep people nonviolent. Everyones emotions were aroused and both sides lost control of their people, that's what happens when these things get out of control. That's why government set up and control areas that contain protesters. That's why people are searched before they enter those ares. This is all security 101. The soldiers continued to kill people even after the reds surrendered. several protesters were unarmed when shot by snipers according to wittinesses.

None of the lives lost on either side were justifiable. Even after extensive interviews and review of what evidence is available nobody knows what happen for sure. That's why a independent investigation should be conducted. This government does not want that because they already know the truth.

I'm not defending the reds. What happened is deplorable, but people are angry and fed up being denied any kind of democratic process that is fair.

There is no defending the coup that tossed out Thaksin. Thailand claims to be a country that respects the rule of law, but the reality is another thing. There was a legal process for his removal and had the army chose that process none of this would be happening and we would be moving forward with progress. All of these events stem from the denial of the government to respect it's own constitution. The same constitution that was changed to subvert the democratic process.

Most of us come from democratic country's do you seriously believe that any of the governments actions would stand up in our own country?

Once again, you ignore the fact that the violence was initiated by the red shirts when they stormed parliament and Thaicom, before April 10. Before that, they pushed and prodded at every stage. The government let them protest. The government let them spread blood around. The government let them take a tour of Bangkok. They confronted the army stationed away from protest areas. The army backed off. The red shirts kept on pushing to get a reaction. Finally they got a reaction and they were ready with their armed militia with guns and grenades.

Where is it stated who started the violence on the evening of April 10? As far as I know, no one knows who started shooting. If weapons were brought in later by the black shirts, why did they have them there on April 10, during the start of the violence? Why did they bring in grenades? In the west, when a protest is dispersed, do the protesters respond by throwing grenades? How do you stop people bringing that into a protest area with out completely shutting down a large portion of the city?

You ask why the red shirts would bring women and children into the protest if they were planning violence? Can you point out where the women and children were on the evening of April 10? They were no where to be seen and after April 10 they were safely tucked away in the middle of the protest area in Ratchaprasong ... pretty much like human shields, don't you think? While on the outside of the protest areas, the army were being attacked well outside the tyre and bamboo barricades.

Have to rememebr that (not so) clever Thai man who put his 2 year old daughter on the pile of tyres...................now theres a poor red shirt being reasonable isnt it? Also the HRW report says "soldiers shot........" is this black shirt guard soldiers perhaps - like the ones who shot the nurse??

[ianbaggie]

Humans are emotional creatures which is why the reds held "schools" prior to the event to keep people nonviolent.

Dont suppose a link is possible here??

I'm not defending the reds. What happened is deplorable, but people are angry and fed up being denied any kind of democratic process that is fair. There is no defending the coup that tossed out Thaksin.

Personally - the whole reason i spend time posting on this forum is because I believe that there is. Khun Thaksin needed to be removed at the time - and any means were justifiable to do this.Coups are not strictly democratic processes now are they. However, consider this. If the German officers who planted bombs to kill hitler had succeeded would you hail them as "an undemocratic coup:. No, now all we need to do is to give you an idea of exactly what Thaksin did wrong during his time in power. Please stop thinking of the Pheu thai/Red shirt movement as a democratic group of freedom fighters trying to get rights for the poor masses - they're Thaksins paid private army put onto the streets with no other purpose than to act his will for 1000 baht a day. Why cant the red apoligists see these simple facts??

[animatic]

... Why cant the red apologists see these simple facts??

Because they do not want to.

[ianbaggie]

... Why cant the red apologists see these simple facts??

Because they do not want to.

.................and there is none so blind as he who will not see...............??